Topic: Mario Revolution

[pudu]

I've seen quite a bit of talk about the next Mario game on Revolution in another thread and I think its about time that it gets it's own (pardon me if there is a thread somewhere from way back when).  I'm just goint to describe some ideas I have with the hopes I will get some good ideas from the rest of you.  

With a lot of people's inerest in retro games and Nintendo's new virtual console concept, along with what people's opinion about Mario 64/SMS not feeling like the calssic mushroom kingdom I thought up two options to bring this back:

One option is a more obvious one:  truely return to Marios' roots with a 2D mario game using 3D visuals, much like they are doing now with the new DS game.  There is no possible way to truely mimick the old-school 2D Mario gameplay in 3D and a retro inspired 2D game for rev (if done correctly) could really draw in a lot of people, especially from nastalgia.  The controller could make for some intense and fresh gameplay.  Just imagine sitting back with your revmote and with the flick of your wrist controlling Mario's every move.  You may not even need to use any buttons for jumping, just flip the controller up like in the promo video and maybe just use the "A" button for fireballs and such.

The other option is to make a Mario game that is more in tune with the side scrolling gameplay but in 3D.  The best example is those sub-missions in SMS where you had no waterpack.  These were by far my favorite parts of the game.  By making levels more confined/linear, throwing in some challenging obstacles and puzzles, and getting away from the star/shine system it would play a whole lot more like the games of old.  To give it even more of the retro feel the graphics could be made to look exactly like the art style of the 2D games but in 3D.  They could use 2D looking backgrounds with sprites walking around them and even puprosely put in pixelated looking 8 or 16 bit textures.  At the end of each level you could find toad.  They could also use the music and sound fx directly from the original games to top it all off.

Either way they did it I think that both games could be emmensly fun.  By making the levels more linear and confined they could cram a lot of them in the game.  They would also be supporting their stance that gameplay and innovation are key by purposely making the games look more retro and stylized and proving that the gameplay is what counts.  My worste fear is a game much like SMS but just with added rev controls.  I'm sure the game could be fun but there is so much more they could do and different ways they could approach the game.

[Michael8983]

Why go with one or the other.
Nintendo could make Mario Revolution a combimation of 3D and 2D levels. They should all be linear though and focused on over-coming obstacles.
The real emphasis should be on the new control method to tackle those obstacles.  The Revmote as used in a platformer could amount to the rebirth of the joystick which is ironic considering Nintendo is responsible for putting an end to the original joystick of the Atari age.

[ThePerm]

i'd want to see a platform game with high speed point and click you set the path of the character with several points an click and as they approach each click you press a  to coordinate with the clicks

[Artimus]

People don't think Mario 64 feels like Mario? What!?

[jasonditz]

They might be able to do stuff like these ideas in later versions, but IMO, the first Mario for the Revolution absolutely has to be a legitimate successor to Mario 64.  

[Michael8983]

"They might be able to do stuff like these ideas in later versions, but IMO, the first Mario for the Revolution absolutely has to be a legitimate successor to Mario 64."

Most of the levels in Super Mario 64 were very linear. Basically side-scrolling levels adapted into 3D.
The Bowser levels were the most obvious but the majority of the other levels were too even though they tried to hide it.
If Mario Sunshine wasn't a legit successor for a reason other than the lack of classic environments and power-ups, it's because the levels were much more open with few set paths. I think that made it more frustrating and less fun. There's a reason everyone hails the bonus levels as the game's strong point. Unlike the rest of the game they retained the classic Mario formula of running and jumping from point A to point B.
That's what Mario Revolution should hold true to. The new control method will just allow players to navigate the levels with much more precision.  

[RiskyChris]

God I'm going to go play SMS again just to play those bonus levels.

They were *so* good.

[animecyberrat]

Its not somuch mario 64 wasnt real Mario, its more Mario Sunshine, but I was saying in that other thread that Mario Revolution or Mario 128 or whatever, shouldnt live up to the Mario 64 it has t liv eup to THE CALSSIC Mario games, but also retain some of what made mario 64 great also.

It should be a 3-D world like Mario 64/Sunshine bt it just needs to change a few things, like rturn to Mushroom Kindgom above all else, bring back Warp Pipes istead of Paintings, and restore some of Marios clasic abilities, like Fire Flower, Magic Mushroom, and Star Man all need to be brought back. Also it should have a real GOAL at the end of the levels that is in line with what they ahd in the past, Mario 64 had some goals in some levels but it strayed from the classics in that every level had something different to do, where as in Mario Bros it was the flag pole, SMB2 it was the slot machine, SMB3 it ws the cards, SMWorld it was the tape, etc.


I am all for new levels and new enemies and new power ups because EVERY Mario game espands the universe in thes ways, I am ALL AGAINST new worlds or new gameplay in ANY WAY SHAPOE OR FORM. Mario as a platformer is alwasy about running, jumping, bashin bricks, collecting gold coins, finding power ups, JUMPING from platform to platform. Things like that. Also they should return to the traveling through various worlds and ending up in a castle like previous games, verses Mario 64 which took place entirely in the castle and sunshien which was a stupid tropical island (rehash of Mario World and sucky one at that)


And they absoulutley NEED to bring back the classic enemies. They need Gombas, Koopas, Lakitus, Spinys, Thwomps, Boos, Dry Bones, Shy Guys, Pirahna plants, Buzy Beetles, Bullet Bils, Cheap Cheaps, etc. and maybe introduce some new enemies.


Also it would be cool to bring back the Koopa Kids, but thats not so nescasary as some of the other stuff.  

[Nephilim]

We dont know anything about mario rev, i could turn out to be 2d for all we know
anything like the bowser mini game on paper mario 2 would be awsome in my view

[KDR_11k]

I think the secrets in SMS are pretty much like SMB but not completely yet. If they stopped mario from falling off the sides of the parcours, introduced checkpoints, added more enemies and brought back the old powerup/damage system it'd be as close as it can get.

[animecyberrat]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I think the secrets in SMS are pretty much like SMB but not completely yet. If they __________, _______, ________and brought back the _________it'd be as close as it can get.

Yeah but thats a LOT of IF's.


I also agree the ONLY redeem value Mario Sunshine had ws its seret levels but they werent enough to make up fo the rst of the game, not even the Yoshis helped it out.  

[Spak-Spang]

The Bowser Levels are EXACTLY what I want in Mario Revolution, except with more enemies, and variety. Two other linear levels that were great are Tick Tock Clock, and Rainbow Road (Or whatever it was called.)

Those were levels that felt more like traditional Mario games.  The other levels may have had more playfulness to them, but didn't have the intensity of a Mario platform level.

I also want Mario Revolution to move to a more abstract artstyle.  Yoshi's Island to me is the best visually designed game to date.  It beats out all the 2D games of yesterday, and the 3D games of today.  I want something abstract and stunning to look at while I play.  It doesn't have to be that crayola style graphics, but I want it to be different.

Finally, I really want the Koopa Kids, Bowser, and Mushroom Kingdom back in traditional fashion.  This is needed to create the whimsical feel that breathed energy and life into the Mario experience.

[MaryJane]

They need to bring back the racoon suit, that was undoubtedly the best power up, at least the best looking imo.  

[Ian Sane]

"You may not even need to use any buttons for jumping, just flip the controller up like in the promo video and maybe just use the 'A' button for fireballs and such."

I don't like that design.  What's the point?  Instead of pushing a button I flick my wrist?  How is this any better than what I had before?  The whole thing just reaks of g!mmick if all they do is assign what used to be a button push to a gesture.  It's basically the exact same thing as before only the new way causes arm fatigue.  If they're going to use the remote they should use it right and put it to use in a way that couldn't be replicated with anything else.

And that's where I'm really stumped regarding a new Mario game that does use the remote in a meaningful way.  The ideal ways of using the remote that I can think of would be for pointing at things like in a shooter or something, mouse-style controls, and for swinging items and generally anything where you're simulating moving your hand.  Mario is about jumping and that doesn't seem to lend itself well to that sort of control.  I can't think of any obvious need for such a control at the very least.

I think Super Mario 64 felt enough like Mario.  Super Mario Sunshine's problem wasn't that it didn't feel like Mario.  The problem was it just wasn't that good.  Well it was good but not "Mario good".  If every area wasn't a tropical island and you could fly like in Super Mario 64, and go after shines out of order, and Yoshi didn't suck, and you didn't have to clean up so much paint the game would probably have turned out fine.  I chalk up Mario Sunshine's shortcomings to a few poor design decisions, not because it didn't feel like Mario.

One thing that would work well for Mario though is to have less big areas and more small ones.  In the 2D games each level has one goal or in the case of Super Mario World sometimes two goals.  In the 3D Mario games the levels have several goals so things can get kind of samey after a while.  It's not nearly as bad as in Rare's 3D platformers which are like a big scavenger hunt.  Why are the secret levels within a bigger level?  Why not just make them their own level?  Things like that would draw things back more to the 2D Marios.  But I think even if they leave it as before with the big hub world it will turn out okay depending on how they execute things.

[Renny]

I don't like the idea of gestures either. Using broad movements for digital controls has never made sense to me. Yes, I'm even annoyed by using a thumbstick instead of a D-pad. I manage, but it feels uncomfortable. (Though I just might be retarded.) If 'gestures' are going to be implemented in a game where precise movement is important, they should have some tactility to them. A jump is still a jump, but I'd like some finer control of distance and trajectory.

Leave analog controls to analog movements, and gestures to menus. Of course I welcome any developer to prove me wrong.

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't like that design.  What's the point?  Instead of pushing a button I flick my wrist?  How is this any better than what I had before?  The whole thing just reaks of g!mmick if all they do is assign what used to be a button push to a gesture.  It's basically the exact same thing as before only the new way causes arm fatigue.

Arm fatigue? You serious? How lazy can you can be? But I guess you're right the last thing we need is more exercise. I hear it's really bad for your health. Besides, I bet your right forearm/wrist is really strong. jk.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If they're going to use the remote they should use it right and put it to use in a way that couldn't be replicated with anything else.

What else can replicate that? I kind of get what your saying about replacing buttons with movements, but I disagree wholeheartedly. I think it's a great use of the revmote, mainly because it'll free up the other buttons for other things, making up for its lack of button, which is a common complaint.

[jasonditz]

How about things that while they could go them with a button, you get some extra control by using the motion? I'm picturing a Hammer Bros. suit where you can fling hammers with the revmote, or a boomerang suit where you're throwing boomerangs and your motion determines speed and distance, or maybe a boss battle using a big mallet where you have to bat stuff back at the monster (though admittedly that last idea is probably better suited to a Sonic game where you're playing as Amy)

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: MaryJane

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't like that design.  What's the point?  Instead of pushing a button I flick my wrist?  How is this any better than what I had before?  The whole thing just reaks of g!mmick if all they do is assign what used to be a button push to a gesture.  It's basically the exact same thing as before only the new way causes arm fatigue.

Arm fatigue? You serious? How lazy can you can be? But I guess you're right the last thing we need is more exercise. I hear it's really bad for your health. Besides, I bet your right forearm/wrist is really strong. jk.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If they're going to use the remote they should use it right and put it to use in a way that couldn't be replicated with anything else.

What else can replicate that? I kind of get what your saying about replacing buttons with movements, but I disagree wholeheartedly. I think it's a great use of the revmote, mainly because it'll free up the other buttons for other things, making up for its lack of button, which is a common complaint.

I agree with Ian... the last thing we need in Nintendo getting sued for repititive motion injuries like they did with Mario Party.

You have to jump way to much in Mario to require quick hand gestures over and over like that... I for one would just as soon that when I rotate my wrist after playing a game I didn't hear a sound like when someone is shaking a container of breath mints.

[Ian Sane]

"What else can replicate that? I kind of get what your saying about replacing buttons with movements, but I disagree wholeheartedly. I think it's a great use of the revmote, mainly because it'll free up the other buttons for other things, making up for its lack of button, which is a common complaint."

In the case of the "flick your wrist to jump" example a button push can replicate it because that's essentially all you're doing.  And I don't see much advantage to freeing up a hand while playing besides the obvious joke answers.

Download a Mario game speedrun and while watching it hold a TV remote and flick your wrist everytime Mario jumps.  See how much fun that would be after a few minutes.

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<brIn the case of the "flick your wrist to jump" example a button push can replicate it because that's essentially all you're doing.  And I don't see much advantage to freeing up a hand while playing besides the obvious joke answers.

Download a Mario game speedrun and while watching it hold a TV remote and flick your wrist everytime Mario jumps.  See how much fun that would be after a few minutes.

LoL, so tempting to make the joke.
Anyway, speedruns are no fun, I'm talking about typical gameplay, and freeing up buttons, and creating more gameplay opportunities and dimensions.  
If the wrist movements are too much for anyone, just buy a ps3 and be happy.
And of course the revmote will come with a disclaimer about proper use, and not overusing and all that good kind of legal babble.  

[KDR_11k]

Gesture recognition for digital input is a workaround for too few buttons on the input device. If something is an on-off action then use a button. Don't use the gyroscopes if you don't make use of nuances in the movement and even if you make use of those make sure they really improve the game (i.e. allow different nuances for different goals instead of having a perfect movement that will work for everything and effectively punishing the player for deviating from "the way") instead of merely giving the player another possible reason to fail a level.

Remember all the complaints about the analog triggers on the GC causing problems when used for digital input? On an analog device you don't know the threshold where the action will trigger. If moving the controller up would make Mario jump, when would he jump? The moment you start lifting? When the controller surpasses a certain velocity for a set amount of time? How fast do you have to lift it? What will the user think when he tried a difficult jump at the end of a level and fails because the controller didn't recognize the input properly?

If your input is inaccurate you cannot demand accuracy from the player. Mario is usually about precise platform jumping. With imprecise controls the jumping would have to be made easier. That way the only remaining difficulty in a Mario game (come on, with the life bar in the 3d Marios it's almost impossible to die from being hit by enemies) would be gone.

[Ian Sane]

"Anyway, speedruns are no fun, I'm talking about typical gameplay"

I just suggested a speedrun so that you don't have to watch someone play a game for two hours.  If you want get a friend to play a Mario game and do the wrist flicks with their jumps instead.

"If the wrist movements are too much for anyone, just buy a ps3 and be happy."

Yeah that's real nice.  Sorry longtime Mario fans but we decided to map button pushes to a wrist flick to appeal to non-gamers and if that's a problem then no Mario for you.

Plus who the hell would buy the Rev for a Mario game where you flick your wrist to jump anyway?  Aside from everything else it's LAME as hell.  Nintendo talks about new ways of gaming and how they have to change everything and have a new standard and all they do is map button pushes to gestures?  No one would take the remote seriously at all if they did that.  It's not a new way of gaming then.

If they did that everone's response would be "that's it?"

[Artimus]

Gestures can be better than buttons. I use mouse gestures in Firefox all the time and it makes me three times as fast as if I had to use buttons.

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You may not even need to use any buttons for jumping, just flip the controller up like in the promo video and maybe just use the 'A' button for fireballs and such."

I don't like that design.  What's the point?  Instead of pushing a button I flick my wrist?  How is this any better than what I had before?  The whole thing just reaks of g!mmick if all they do is assign what used to be a button push to a gesture.  It's basically the exact same thing as before only the new way causes arm fatigue.  If they're going to use the remote they should use it right and put it to use in a way that couldn't be replicated with anything else.

Well first of all that was simply a suggestion.  After reading the comments about it I think that the bad probably outway the good in approaching the jump control in this fashion.  The points made about the possible fatigue that could occur and, especially, the point made about the lack of accuracy when compared to a button are very good arguments.  I can also, however, see the other side of the argument.  It could free up buttons and also  be more intuitive (move revmote up and mario jumps up),

It also seems quite a few of us agree that the levels should be more linear and with a specific goal at the end.  SMS was indeed more open ended, causing me to get lost or confused as to what I was supposed to do.  This is not what I think mario games are all about.  Like the submissions in SMS and the bowser levels in SM64 I would be floored if they made the new mario like the old school games with a ton of linear levels where you know where you must go and the challenge is in getting from "A" to "B".  SMS was  a bit to much like an adventure game and not enough like a straight up platformer.  

One other thing is I want there to be a good range of difficulty from easy levels all the way to the very difficult.  I do think its important for everyone to be able to play but I think that at the very least some optional levels of great difficulty should be put in or perhaps special rewards for quicker times.  There is nothing like a good challenge and some of those submissions in SMS really started to head in the right direction.

[Strell]

Um.

Well wrist = another muscle entirely.

Think about the combinations you can't do well with buttons that can be done with wrist + button presses.

Oh wait, you can't, because you've made up your mind it's a stupid gimm!ck.

I can't believe you honestly think Nintendo - the one company responsible for working 3D camers, lock on systems, and redifining how games work over and over - would be stupid enough to release something that didn't allow for accuracy.  They are not that stupid.

Thanks for playing, Ian.  Please don't buy a Revolution.  I don't want to have to kick your ass on SSBM only to hear you whine that OMFG I CAN'T DO GIMARCKS CONNTROLARS!!1