Topic: Matt's latest: "Revolution as a console is merely a vehicle for the new controller"

[Strell]

It's like you are saying new formats can't dictate new genres.  Or, more directly, that we don't want OR need either new genres or interfaces.

You are the kind of guy that thought the mouse wasn't needed.  "Mouse!  When am I ever going to need that?  I like my command prompts!"  Had we stayed on command prompts, the computer industry would be nowhere near as big as it is today.  I guess all those non-computer computer people like using the mouse.  And guess what - even the hardcore computer people like GUIs and mice.  

THat is EXACTLY the mode of thinking Nintendo is in right now - throwing out the archaicness of gaming and introducing a way to do things never before seen or previously possible.

You talk all this nonsense about non-gamers and such.  Newsflash: There are more non-gamers than gamers.  Nintendo is NOT FOCUSING PURELY ON THEM, STOP PRETENDING THEY ARE.  Thats the same bullsh*t people said when NIntendo said games need to be shorter.  Nintendo doesn't want short games, they want quality-packed ones, and that is a HUGE difference.

Keep thinking to yourself that they are only going to make non-game games, ok?  Seriously.  THat's the most flawed thinking I've ever heard in my life.  Nintendo REBUILT this industry.  They set the majority of the rules.  

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THEY ARE GOING TO THROW THEM ALL OUT THE WINDOW IN FAVOR OF SOME UNPROVEN IDEA?

Of course not.  

You say

"Nintendo thinks the problem is that weren't not catering to the non-fans enough."

HOLD IT

"NIntendo thinks no one is buying games anymore except hardcore gamers."

What the hell.  Not only does that not make sense, but it is comically ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

Make up your mind.

You act like Nintendo is going to make cooking games and no more Zelda anymore.

How about we stop all this crap about how how woebegone Nintendo is and how they are completely aloof from what gamers want.  It's a tired argument and YOU KNOW IT.  

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
Didn't I ban you, I thought I banned you. Do you ever make sense.

[mantidor]

But Ian, the DS is constantly and constantly proving that they were right, if they wanted they couldve just released GBA 2 with improved graphics and people wouldve bought it, unfortunately, it wouldve been the same people who got a GBA, now with the DS there are seriously elderly people playing with it, and its not just Japan, Europe is seeing something very similar, and also, they have released games for just about everyone, the got Nintendogs andBrain Training, but also Mario Kart and Metroid Hunters. So I dont see why you should be so pessimistic about the outcome of the Revolution.

[KDR_11k]

Do we need the Revolution? No. The remote is in response to a "crisis" about gaming that Nintendo made up.

They didn't make it up, the market in Japan is declining and I've read first claims of the same process starting in the US. There are many Atari-age gamers that don't play games because there are too many buttons.

Either way, whether there is a problem that must be fixed or not, we shouldn't stop moving ahead just because our current place is kinda comfortable. The rod is possible, it can be done well and it has the potential to make games better. So why should Nintendo make a console that has no advantages over the others and therefore no reason to exist when they could make a console with a unique advantage? If it fails you can still buy an Xbox.

If your product can't compete on even footing you have to change the footing. Lower the price or change your product to get a competitive advantage. Being cheaper didn't help the Gamecube. Now Nintendo has to try something else if they don't want to make another also-ran that has not one advantage over the competition. Since their competitors are abusing their huge money reserves to price their consoles anticompetitively Nintendo doesn't have a chance of competing with them if they tried the same direction (usually there are antitrust laws for that but somehow noone tries to apply them to the console market). They can keep rushing at the gates of Troy or they can build a horse instead.

[Ian Sane]

"You are the kind of guy that thought the mouse wasn't needed. 'Mouse! When am I ever going to need that? I like my command prompts!' Had we stayed on command prompts, the computer industry would be nowhere near as big as it is today. I guess all those non-computer computer people like using the mouse. And guess what - even the hardcore computer people like GUIs and mice."

Nintendo's idea is more in line with "we don't need the keyboard anymore because now we have a mouse".  The mouse expanded on what was there.  The remote removes key functionality and tries to replace it with something else.  That is the key difference.

"What the hell. Not only does that not make sense, but it is comically ONE AFTER THE OTHER."

The statements aren't contradicting.  Nintendo thinks that right now only hardcore gamers are buying games and the problem with gaming is that non-fans aren't being targetted enough.  How do these statements not make sense?

"the got Nintendogs andBrain Training, but also Mario Kart and Metroid Hunters. So I dont see why you should be so pessimistic about the outcome of the Revolution."

That's why I'm concerned.  Non-gamers get all the new stuff while we the hardcore are expected to make due with sequels and spin-offs.  With the DS too often it seems like the "traditional" games are just Nintendo going through the motions.  They're making good stuff but it's very familiar and I want more than sequels.  But all the new ideas are for games like Brain Training, Electroplankton and Nintendogs.  When I look at the DS lineup it's clear to me that the non-gamers are Nintendo's focus and the hardcore are just expected to just make do with the franchises.

[Strell]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Nintendo's idea is more in line with "we don't need the keyboard anymore because now we have a mouse".  The mouse expanded on what was there.  The remote removes key functionality and tries to replace it with something else.  That is the key difference.

It does?  How?  It gives you MORE functionality.  It is MORE natural to move your hand around than to move your thumb around.  It doesn't replace it with something else, it takes something that is amazingly archaic and makes it flow.  The only thing we lose with the Revmote....wait, we don't lose anything.  We gain.  This is an extension of the interface model, Ian.  It is not a replacement.  

I'm not even going to argue about the fact that we STILL HAVE THE CONVENTIONAL SHELL.  Just like you still have a keyboard next to your mouse, when you could conceivably do everything with just one or the other.

You'd have a point if EVERY LAST GAME REPLACED EVERYTHING with the Revmote's capabilities.  Like if we played pong and you moved your entire arm up and down.  There's NOTHING to say that a developer couldn't relegate control to the stick, to the dpad, or to the Revmote.  It's all possible and I gaurantee you will see people using different styles of play.  

Nintendo, and more importantly, developers are not stupid enough to pretend that everyone needs a paradigm shift, and that OMFG EVERYTHING NEEDS TO REFLECT THAT.  Now if we get a Mario where you tilt left/right to run, jerk up to dump, tilt down to duck, so on so on so on, THEN you'd have a point.  But we can't say that because we've seen a grand total of zero games for the Rev, only some possibilities.  You're being an alarmist for something that hasn't even been hinted at yet.

As for the hardcore gamer thing, do you really think someone like Nintendo - the most profitable game company to exist currently and in the past - would all of a sudden drop their entire market in leui of another one?  We're going to get catered to from both ends.  Your comments don't make sense because Nintendo wouldn't back down from an area they KNOW they can make money in for one that is entirely unproven.  They aren't stupid, and their bank account proves it.  You can't say "only X is buying games, so let's focus on Y," which is what you implied.  Nintendo is saying they'll focus on X AND Y.  ANd guess what - so will developers.

I fail to see how Atlus prepping Trauma Center (Y) and Ubisoft prepping an FPS (X) isn't somehow attractive to everyone.

You need to stop this silly argument about how all of a sudden Nintendo is going to abandon you for your grandma.  Anything "new" is going to be aimed at gamers, period.  We're about to get a ton of DS games in traditional genres with new concepts in them.  The Rev will do the same.

Finally, you say that all the cool stuff on the DS that is new (in terms of gameplay) is aimed at nongamers.  So what?  We gamers can appreciate the non-gamer stuff.  In fact, they make up my favorite games on the DS right now BECAUSE they are so different and new.  You act like we can't enjoy them.  Why can't we?  I mean, am I so hardcore that I can't like Electroplankton and Nintendogs?  What makes me hardcore?  The fact that I own Rez?  That I play Metal Slug?  That I enjoy Contra, despite it being hard as hell?  Or that I want to get 100% on all the levels in Yoshi's Island?  I don't get why I can't sit back after some soul-crushing minutes with Geometry Wars and just relax with a non-game game, like Animal Crossing.  I fail to see why I can't coexist in both spheres.

I'm really going to need you to enlighten me on what is wrong with the situation here.

 

[MaryJane]

Usually I can at least see where Ian is coming from but now i'm confused.

Nintendo isn't stupid, they're offering this totally new controller. They realize it can't work with everything hmmm what to do. OH i know lets throw in a peripheral free, that'll make it work with just about everything. And for the games that still won't work with that (which will be few, i'll explain why in a bit) we'll offer a traditional style shell (maybe free?).

As for the ds. how is nintendo forgetting about hardcore gamers? last time i checked people love multiplayer. and we're getting what looks to be one of the best multiplayer experiences ever with mp:h, if that game isn't original please tell me what is. Also we're getting a new super mario, in 2D weren't you the one complaining that there's no 2d anymore? Also we got super princess peach, not my bag of chips, but a solid platformer nonetheless. and many many many more one the way in the form of rpgs and other such traditional games.

Quote
Do we need the Revolution? No. The remote is in response to a "crisis" about gaming that Nintendo made up.

I personally believe the remote is in direct response to the success of the ds. Hell for all we know the ds was an inexpensive way to test if the revmote would be successful.  

Oh i almost forgot, the reason i don't think there'll be a lot of games that need the conv. control. with motion sensing moving in a 3d world could be done without using the directional pad, thus turning them into action buttons. with the nunchuck attachment, added on to that which has an analog stick if you forgot, again the directional pad turns into action buttons. there are so many options with this controller, which is why everyone loves it, without having ever touched it. The possiblities are... i don't want to say endless, but greater than any system has ever offered. oh and the rev is much more than a whateverthehell word he used for the controller. wi-fi, wireless lan, virtual console, and some other things we don't know about yet. that seems like more than a controller and a damn good reason to release a new console.  

[mantidor]

Sorry Ian, but the "hardcores" you are talking about made Nintendo think that they wanted sequels and spinoffs without any originality, after all they were the people who cried when the Wind Waker was revealed, and still dont like the style, Nintendo is not going to risk over a jaded fan-base who indeed wants pure sequels and spinoffs and is terrified by something new and innovative, to the point of calling it a "no - game".

their sequels are very innovative and always try to do new things, whats the response? " OH NO THEY ARE RUINING THE SERIES" I perfectly remember you complaining about Mario Kart and your fear thatt the might try to push that "gimm!cky" touch screen, and how relieved you were that there was no touchscreen input, to the point that it push you to buy a DS if Im not mistaken, or at the very least Im sure it was one of the reasons for your purchase. So sadly you are guilty of your own critisism, have yo tried to put yourself in Nintendo's shoes? why give new things to a group of people who simply seem to dont want it at all?

besides, whos to say that one of those "no games" cant be as great as Pikmin? thats the thing about new innovative things, you might like them or not, and calling them "no game" because they arent easily typecasted into the so called "genres" of gaming is stupid, the term "no game" and "no gamer" at the end dont mean a damn thing, people play games, they are going to like some types of games and dont  like some other types and thats it.

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
even if in reality the Rev is just a Cube with a remote and the online gaming the Cube should have had.

dillusions +1

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Do we need the Revolution?  No.  The remote is in response to a "crisis" about gaming that Nintendo made up.

Wrong.  You are the most dilusional person I think I have ever seen.  It is a fact that the videogame industry had been on the decline for 5 years in JPN.  Then the DS came out and it is selling more hardware AND software at a faster rate than any system EVER which includes the GBA.  The ONLY way you can explain this is that new people are playing that haven't before and people are going back to their gaming that haven't for many years.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo thinks they have to reinvent the wheel to innovate.

Seemed to work well with the DS.....  Give developers a sandbox of different tools and let their imaginations go to work.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think that's stupid but we really don't need the X360 or PS3 either.  Not yet anyway.  The real reason we're even getting any new consoles is because of money and console makers want to release new product.  Each company is using some paper thin reason to go next gen.  Sony and MS are using HD, Nintendo is using their controller.  All three companies are wrong.  I don't think we're set for life with the current consoles but we've reached a point in technology where a console can last longer than five years before a new model is needed.  We will need new consoles eventually but not yet.

Surprisingly I partially agree with you on this bit.  I feel that there is still plenty of life left in the xbox, ps2, and cube.  I know my wallet would appreciate it.  Except Nintendo's controller isn't the reason they are doing it.  They didn't sit in a meeting and say: We have this new controller its time to make the next system.  Rather they were making the new system anyways and thought: Is there anything else we can do besides stronger hardware.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Gaming is only stale if the content being made is stale.  Considering that Nintendo has made virtually nothing for the Cube for the past few years but cliche Mario spinoff junk they can kindly shut-up because they've contributed to the problem as much as anyone.  And the Rev won't fix this if they just use it to make new Mario spinoffs.  If Nintendo wants to make gaming interesting again they need to ditch this recent "our franchises are everything" attitude they've had for the last couple of years, not break a perfectly acceptable controller design for no reason.

Funny how Nintendo has already announced that Miyamoto would be unveiling a brand new IP for rev at E3 this year.  Also, Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, Donkey Konga, Pikmin, and a few others disagree.  And why would Nintendo stop making Mario games when they have sold more this generation (Cube, GBA, DS) than anyother game series franchise?  Its gauranteed money for them.  A new IP is a risk that they don't normally take.  Also you have to remember that Yamauchi-san was in charge for most of the Cube's life and it takes a couple years to make a game.  So most of the stuff that you are seeing now were in planning with him at the helm.  With the DS starting out under Iwata you are seeing new things coming out because he knows the business better than the heads of Playstation and Xbox because he started from th bottom and has climbed to the top and has put some excitement back into Nintendo according to Nintendo employees.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If the remote is the only real addition to the Rev I'm concerned about how that will improve traditional games that use the "normal" controller.  Without a big hardware boost they're basically just going to be Cube games.  Nintendo is kind of setting up a system where only remote controlled games will benefit from their new hardware (and online games).  That's kind of lame.  It also suggest to me that Nintendo won't bother to even make many traditional games, if any at all.  Did they make ANY 2D games for the N64?

Ignorance and dillusions +1000000000000.  Shell controller says hi.  They have said many times that the hardware is much better than Cube's.  And from 3rd parties they are now realizing that yes it is about 2x as strong on paper.  But Nintendo knows how to design hardware and it will be highly specialized to be able to do things that won't need the raw horsepower.  Why are you complaining that they might not make traditional games anymore?  You have said maaany times that you are tired of them.  Go home.

Quote
Originally posted by: RiskyChris
P.S. Ian, Nintendo doesn't say EVERY SINGLE PERSON is bored with gaming.  Do you just read their comments the way you want them to sound, just so you can make ridiculous, extremist statements and conclusions?

Its a daily habit of his around here.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You are the kind of guy that thought the mouse wasn't needed. 'Mouse! When am I ever going to need that? I like my command prompts!' Had we stayed on command prompts, the computer industry would be nowhere near as big as it is today. I guess all those non-computer computer people like using the mouse. And guess what - even the hardcore computer people like GUIs and mice."

Nintendo's idea is more in line with "we don't need the keyboard anymore because now we have a mouse".  The mouse expanded on what was there.  The remote removes key functionality and tries to replace it with something else.  That is the key difference.

And just how is the remote removing functionality?  Last I checked it had it all and more which would be *GASP* expanding what is there.  It has the analoge attachment (1 stick), the x/y motion sensing in the main controller (1 stick), trigger buttons (3), a, b, start, another a, and a d-pad.  THEN there is the z axis sensing on top of it all.  So that is 2 sticks, 3 triggers, d-pad, and 3 buttons with their latest models whis is only one button less than Cube's.  Heck they are more than likely going to reveal another design at E3 still since at TGS they said they were still tweaking the controller.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That's why I'm concerned.  Non-gamers get all the new stuff while we the hardcore are expected to make due with sequels and spin-offs.  With the DS too often it seems like the "traditional" games are just Nintendo going through the motions.  They're making good stuff but it's very familiar and I want more than sequels.  But all the new ideas are for games like Brain Training, Electroplankton and Nintendogs.  When I look at the DS lineup it's clear to me that the non-gamers are Nintendo's focus and the hardcore are just expected to just make do with the franchises.

Wait, since when were you never allowed to buy anything except "sequals and spinoffs"?  Noone is stopping you from buyng the "new stuff" besides your own stupid self.  You pretty much just dscribed why the market has been on the decline.  All the ideas for a "traditional" game have been done which is why you see the same elements over and over and over in games.  New ideas are going to make new games than what you are used to.  Its your own fault for not being interested in them.  I don't think it was just the "non-gamers" who bought Nintendogs and Animal Crossing.  There are plenty of gamers who did.  Open your eyes to the bigger picture and not your narrow viewed imagination of what is happening.

 

[Dirk Temporo]

Matt and Ian should make a baby together.

It will be the most cynical human being on the planet.

EDIT: If you could even call it human at that point.

[BlkPaladin]

Why are we going to a new generation. Bescially because it is an industry precept that started when Sega released the Genesis forcing Nintendo to release the SNES earlier then they wanted. And after that the other companies had to release when another company was going to release an "next" generation or risk losing a lot of money. This generation both Nintendo and Sony wanted to last longer, but it didn't because Microsoft who is a serious threat to their profits game jumped the gun with the "next" generation. (Which Microsoft wanted to draw customers off both the company because they needed to show more profit then they were showing.) So both Nintendo and Sony have to come out with what they have.

Nintendo is taking their usual route not the strongest console with a controller centered around gameplay they want to make for it. Sony is trying to buy their way to continue to stay first. (They are still operating on the concept of being a virtual Monopoly where the market leader out spends a massive amount of money reducing their profits to stay in first place.) Unfortunatly with Microsoft's strong presence this last generation the market model may be an olagopoly right now and all that does it put Sony in a bad position.

Oops got off of the point I'm making. Basically since gaming has become mainstream and with the cycle in place of a new piece of hardware coming out with new techonology the cusomers expects a new console every five years. To prove my point look at the handheld market for 15+ years the Gamboy didn't go through a major techonological advance until Sega and NeoGeo came out with a system that had the potential to cut into the market, so Nintendo came out with the Advanced. Now Sony came out with the PSP and Nintendo comes out with the DS. So basically the Hardware cycle is brought into exhistance by the industry going mainstream.

[Ian Sane]

"It does? How? It gives you MORE functionality. It is MORE natural to move your hand around than to move your thumb around. It doesn't replace it with something else, it takes something that is amazingly archaic and makes it flow. The only thing we lose with the Revmote....wait, we don't lose anything. We gain. This is an extension of the interface model, Ian. It is not a replacement."

We lose tons.  We lose two analog sticks and at least four buttons.  An extension would be a controller with the same stuff as before PLUS motion control.  You say it's more natural to move your hand than to move your thumb.  In other words you're saying motion control is replacing what's there.  That's my whole point.  It's the same thing as saying that a mouse replaces a keyboard.  A mouse can replace a keyboard sort of.  You can have a program on the screen with all the keyboard buttons and you click them with the mouse.  It's workable but it sucks.  The remote is far too theoretical right now to make claims that it is better than the "archaic" standard we use today, a standard no one thought was archaic until Nintendo suggested it was.

There is the shell but there's issues with it.  We don't know what it looks like or if it's included with every console or with every controller.  We don't know if Nintendo themselves will ever even use it.  Nintendo didn't originally come up with the shell or the nunchuk.  They went to third parties with the remote and everyone was all "whoa, where are the buttons" and then Nintendo made those extras in response to that.  It's no different than the Cube d-pad.  Nintendo never used the Cube d-pad seriously.  It was a half-assed afterthought they never wanted in the first place and they never used it as anything but an extra button.  If Nintendo had no intention in making the nunchuk or the remote prior to someone telling them to how likely are they to ever make much use of those accessories?  Their original plan was to get by on the remote.

Nintendo says they'll target both groups but I've found in the past Nintendo is pretty crappy at being an "and" company.  Typically in those situations they have what they're really interested in and they dedicate a lot of attention to it and what they're not interested in they half-ass.  We heard they were going to make both "everyone" games and mature games.  In the end they predominantly focused on "everyone" games and made a few mature titles, handed off to second and third parties and given virtually no marketing push.  When Nintendo isn't interested in something they do a sh!tty job at it.  It's clear to me that Nintendo no longer cares about the Cube and it shows.  Since the DS was released the Cube release lineup has been barren with mostly only rehash Mario spinoffs to keep us occupied.  The one amazing killer first party Cube game has been delayed, most likely to help the launch for the Rev.

Nintendo right now is incredibly excited about this non-gamer stuff.  The whole design of the Rev is based on attracting non-gamers.  The remote was designed to resemble a TV remote because it was seen as unintimidating to non-gamers.  That's their focus and that means that's what's going to get their "real" attention.  I can't think of any situation where Nintendo showed incredibly enthusiasm to one thing and promised to continue to pay attention to something else and delivered in a meaningful way.

History shows that Nintendo neglects what isn't their primary interest.  Thus I'm very concerned.

[Strell]

HI.  THE MOUSE REPLACES USING THE ARROW KEYS IN A GUI FORMAT.

TRY BROWSING THE WEB WITH THE ARROW KEYS.

THEN USE A MOUSE.

THEN COME BACK AND WE'LL TALK.

AND FOR NOT BEING AN "AND" COMPANY, I SURE LIKE NINTENDO SUPPORTING THREE DAMN DIFFERENT CONSOLES RIGHT NOW.  UNLIKE SONY, WHO CAN'T EVEN AVERAGE A GAME PER WEEK ON THE PSP.

I apologize for the caps, but damn, why am I even still writing responses?  

[jasonditz]

Nintendo didn't just suddenly bail on Mature Gamers, they NEVER made games for mature gamers, and they made an effort to accomodate the mature audience with 2nd and 3rd party titles (With mixed results).

[nemo_83]

I have no time right now, but I'll be back later tonight to try and respond some more.  I have three hours of Shakespeare two hours from now and I need to be reading for that.

All I will say is I am glad I am not alone in feeling gaming has become boring, just two years ago when I would say that to gamers, I can't really say that many agreed but I think they knew.  Maybe the shine just wore thin on me sooner, but I think that eventually (and maybe it will take Nintendo's interface for some people to realize it) most every person who calls theirselves gamers will grow bored with that dated addiction which nolonger delivers the thrill.  Gaming as it is today just doesn't have the excitement it had when I first jerked around with a rectangular brick in my hands at the age of six playing Super Mario Bros for the first time.  

But if that is what must be discussed, do we need a new thread specifically for the question:  Has gaming gotten dull to you?

I do agree with this though, "If Nintendo wants to make gaming interesting again they need to ditch this recent "our franchises are everything" attitude they've had for the last couple of years."

[Ian Sane]

A lot of stuff got mentioned while I was typing my response.

"I perfectly remember you complaining about Mario Kart and your fear thatt the might try to push that 'gimm!cky' touch screen, and how relieved you were that there was no touchscreen input, to the point that it push you to buy a DS if Im not mistaken, or at the very least Im sure it was one of the reasons for your purchase."

There's such a thing as forced innovation.  This is typically innovation that sucks.  My concern was that Nintendo was going to get so wrapped up in the idea of using the touchscreen that they would shoehorn it into a game that didn't need it.  Frankly I felt that the inclusion of online play was enough to justify making a new Mario Kart game.  New ideas ruin a series if the ideas are forced.  Pikmin 2 has many new ideas but they don't feel forced.  The waterpack in Super Mario Sunshine felt forced like they all sat in a room and thought "we have to be innovative, what can we do?"  That's a lousy approach and that's what I'm worried they're doing with the remote.  Blatant rehashes are bad but innovation isn't always good either if it's forced and unnatural.  You shouldn't make a glorified expansion pack but you shouldn't make a game so different that it makes no sense to even include the franchise name anymore  or make a sequel so different that it loses what made the original fun in the first place.

"And why would Nintendo stop making Mario games when they have sold more this generation (Cube, GBA, DS) than anyother game series franchise?"

I've never suggested they stop making Mario games, just that they cut back on them.  And the reason to cut back is because all the spin-offs damage the brand name.  Mario used to mean something.  Now he doesn't mean sh!t.  He's just a face they put in generic games to try to boost sales.  Mario games still sell well now but how well will they in the future?  What kind of affect on Nintendo's overall image is releasing eight Mario games a year having?  People think Nintendo is a rehasher and in the past I would have protested that claim.  Now I somewhat support it which is a shame.  Nintendo franchises will sell more consoles and more games longer if every game feels like it means something.  With constant spin-offs they will temporarily sell well but will lose their selling power in the future.  Case in point Mario didn't sell Cubes like Nintendo wanted because Mario isn't special anymore.

"All the ideas for a 'traditional' game have been done which is why you see the same elements over and over and over in games."

That's crap, plain and simple.  Why?  Because I can think of new ideas for the existing controller and my friends can and my brother can and several other people I know can.  And none of us are game developers.  It's an incredibly limited way of thinking to assume we've done everything and have to complete rehaul gaming.

[Kairon]

It's pretty conceited to say that you and people around you can think of new and exciting game ideas and that non-developers like yourselves can easily outthink an entire industry of people who do this for their livelihood.

I think only game developers or industry people can level that sort of inplied contempt at the industry with any real credibility. Everything else is just hot air.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

I don't mean it in a conceited way.  I'm just using it as an example that new ideas are still possible.  If anything I'm being humble.  If I can think of a new idea then surely someone with a career in game design can.

[mantidor]

haha Ian, your complains are basically that Nintendo's business plans dont revolve around your tastes, well, tough luck! if you think that the waterpack was lousy thats you, Nintendo though it was great and I love it too, too bad you didnt like it but what are we going to do? Every single Nintendo game cant appeal to you or be perfect in your eyes, is that simple, yet they offer so much variety that you must find something that you can like, like Pikmin, why are you so pessimistic? why do you think the DS and Revolution wont get the next "Pikmin" whether is a great sequel or another groundbreaking franchise? well, of course Nintendo isnt going to only make ground breaking new franchises and sequels that are all acceptable to you, duh! we are still going to see Mario's parties and Pokemon rehashes as far as the eye can see and some games that are going to seem as "forced innovation" to you, but they sell so they'll be there, it shouldnt be such a terrible concern, we are getting Metroids, Zeldas and even some new experiments, the fact that Nintendo is indeed broadening  how games are played increase the chances that you'll find more games that you or I or anyone will like.  

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That's a lousy approach and that's what I'm worried they're doing with the remote.  Blatant rehashes are bad but innovation isn't always good either if it's forced and unnatural.

Thats one place where your seemingly ignorance is coming from. Nintendo is taking the same theories that they used with the DS to the Rev.  There is a bunch of different tools allowing developers to experiment with the different options.  With DS it is a unheralded success with this key feature.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I've never suggested they stop making Mario games, just that they cut back on them.  And the reason to cut back is because all the spin-offs damage the brand name.  Mario used to mean something.  Now he doesn't mean sh!t.  He's just a face they put in generic games to try to boost sales.  Mario games still sell well now but how well will they in the future?  What kind of affect on Nintendo's overall image is releasing eight Mario games a year having?  People think Nintendo is a rehasher and in the past I would have protested that claim.  Now I somewhat support it which is a shame.  Nintendo franchises will sell more consoles and more games longer if every game feels like it means something.  With constant spin-offs they will temporarily sell well but will lose their selling power in the future.  Case in point Mario didn't sell Cubes like Nintendo wanted because Mario isn't special anymore.

Ummm if Mario doesn't mean ****, then why has it sold so much?!  Your double talking and not listening to yourself.  WAKE THE HELL UP.  Last I remember Cube sales went UP when SMS was released.  You seem to become more illogical and random each day.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That's crap, plain and simple.  Why?  Because I can think of new ideas for the existing controller and my friends can and my brother can and several other people I know can.  And none of us are game developers.  It's an incredibly limited way of thinking to assume we've done everything and have to complete rehaul gaming.

List em then....lets how how many have to deal with the controller without making it more full of buttons.

 

[MaryJane]

1. My mouse broke and for a whole day I had to use only the keyboard to navigate. I'm surprised my tab button didn't break damn that sucked.

2. How can you say the actions of the remote are unnatural when you haven't used it. Guess what when you do you'll adapt. Unless of course you suffer from some sort of mental retardation. (not trying to be funny with that)

3. you can't please everybody all the time. nintendo is doing what they believe will make them the most money.

4. the revolution is a bigger better ds, at least imo. Their strategies are the same (attracting non-gamers), and their input devices are similar.

5. anyone else feel like we keep making the same posts in different threads? damn i can't wait for e3 so we can argue about facts, and games.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

[Ian Sane]

"Ian, your complains are basically that Nintendo's business plans dont revolve around your tastes, well, tough luck!"

I don't expect Nintendo to cater to my every wish.  But I want them to release a fair amount of games I'm interested in.  The problem is they haven't been doing that.  I'm not very interested in most of their DS lineup.  They haven't made many Cube games I'm interested in either.  That's a problem for me.  I thus have a fear that the Rev lineup will have little to interest me.  Nintendo's changed in the last few years.  They milk franchises and release simplified non-games.  Nintendo shouldn't do everything I want but I would hope after years of being a fan they would release more games I'm interested in.  I feel almost like an outsider now.  It feels like everything new is for non-gamers and doesn't interest me and everything for existing gamers is the same stuff I've played a million times before.  And it isn't because there aren't any more ideas.  Nintendo just doesn't seem to try anymore when it comes to what I'm interested in.  I want something new but from the assumption that perhaps I've played a videogame before and can have something with some depth to it.

"Ummm if Mario doesn't mean ****, then why has it sold so much?!"

Mario used to sell systems.  The mere presence of Mario sold consoles like hotcakes.  Mario didn't sell Cubes.  No Nintendo franchise sold Cubes.  The Cube lost to a newcomber who had never even released a console game before.  That's the ultimate problem with Nintendo's emphasis on their frachises.  The Cube sold below expectations despite a healthy amount of franchise games.  That suggests to me that few buy a console just to play Nintendo franchises.  They need something more than that.

"List em then....lets how how many have to deal with the controller without making it more full of buttons."

We were discussing that sort of thing a while ago in a different thread.  My favourite idea, which was a wrestling game, was too complicated to work on the remote.  Now you can suggest that having a complicated game is no good and I should simplify.  Normally I agree but in this case the whole idea is was to make it like a sim.  My complaint was that most wrestling games don't feel accurate to me so I wanted to make something that did.

Other ideas I have include:
- 3D space shooter game kinda like Rogue Leader but lots of units and such.  The emphasis is on big epic battle with lots of AI characters around you so that you feel like part of a bigger picture instead of the invincible badass who has to bail everyone out on his own.  Part of the idea is that when you die you transfer to the next highest ranked unit.  This is supposed to be pretty arcadey so it might work with the Rev though the AI would probably require a fair jump in hardware.

-Weapons fighting game using a battle system similar to Zelda.  You can freely move around and lock-on to your opponent.  The option is even there for two on one stuff.  You can customize armor, fighting styles, weapons, shields, and magic spells.  You can also interact with your environment.  The idea is that the game is based more on timing and dodging then button mashing or special moves.  This might work since I want it to be very easy to pull of moves.  I think it would need the nunchuk.  I don't like the idea of swinging the remote to swing the sword because the game isn't about how you swing but when.

-Police chase game.  Chase criminals around a city or be a crook trying to lose the cops.  Might be doable with the remote.

There are other ideas and I don't want to list everything.  Many are based on existing concepts but wouldn't be all out clones of existing games.  I think they would feel different enough to be worth playing without feeling you had seen it before.  Not all ideas have to be 100% original as a new take on something familiar is worthwhile too.  Metroid Prime is a unique game but it borrows elements from the 2D Metroids and Zelda and first person shooters.  But the overall package doesn't feel like a blatant copycat of something else.

[Kairon]

Ian, even if you don't mean it in a conceited way it still is a pretty conceited statement. No criticism or anything, just wanted to point that out. &P

And if you really wanted that wrestling game to be a Sim, then you would've realized that the revmote is the perfect tool to simulate choke-holds.

The 3D space shooter one could easily work with the revmote and would benefit from it. Space flight is essentially 3D and the controller could succeed in either replicating a joystiq for a sim-like feel or be used to create an intuitive fluid piloting system much like the mouseflight option from Freelancer. I too have pondered with how to viscerally catch the thrill of skimming a space ship close to the surface of an asteroid just to execute a beautifully tight turn.

A weapon fighting game would excel with the revmote. With normal game modes any attempts to replicate a weapons fighting system boils down to already-done "timing" of moves. The rev-mote takes this to the next step by bringing the activation of those moves to a visceral level so that it can benefit from entire-arm muscle memory. If you want this game to be more than today's counter-breaker-rock-paper-scissors-fighters (which, essentially, it is as you've described it), then you'll need the rev mote.

The Police Chase game I have yet to see truly differentiated from True Crime. Still, with elements both of a brawler, you could use the revmote to physically beat a rival drug dealer to death or to wildly aim your gun behind you during a car chase: drive with the nunchuck's analog, aim out the window with your freehand.

I see nothing impossible about your game concepts, except for the fact that all they are right now is text, and not code.

On a happier note, I want to post my own Revolution game concepts now! I'm just as full of "hot air" as anyone else, I dare say!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[jasonditz]

I like that 3D shooter idea... seems like something even a moderately powered revolution could handle, provided it's got enough RAM. I'd like to see more option of who you control though... like maybe I want to just control some peon in a small fighter with no realistic chance of making a huge difference in the outcome of the battle... I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but I'm picturing something kind of like Homeworld as far as scale...