Topic: The Revolution: the good, the bad, and the ugly

[nemo_83]

There are more goods than anything at this point.  Nintendo and their talent to begin with bring a lot to the table noone else can.  There will be lots of Japanese development support I am sure.  Then there is that new controller.  The download service would be great for consumers and not just Nintendo's pockets.  Dev kits are less expensive than PSP kits.  The API is familiar to developers.  Reggie promises to kick some ass with Revolution marketing, so public image can only improve which is good news for the stock.  Nintendo is promising to create new IPs, whether that means an experimental game you can only order online or a new major character driven adventure game from Nintendo to stand beside Metroid, Zelda, and the Brothers Mario is not clear.  There is still a sense of cynicism in gamers and the media about Nintendo actually making some big new franchise games that will entertain the core audience (the people who buy the console for the first two to three years).  It isn't enough to just have sequels to the classics, everyone wants to see a next gen Metroid, but the easiest way to impress gamers and the media is to do something original yet still epic, something with a clean slate.  I point to the success of Halo; a game that generated a lot of word of mouth hype.

The bad:  Depends on who you ask.  Some say the bad is that there is no HD support.  Yet recent Sony rumors say their console won't come near the hype, and the HDDVD/Blue Ray war will actually hurt the game industry overall.  It can be easily argued that higher pixel standards are nothing more than drains on the game hardware.  If you ask me, the bad includes the lack of an ethernet port at this point.  Wifi is nothing new and if America thought wifi was a good idea it would have bought it to begin with but it is hard to sell it to America when they know their neighbors can hack the connection.  America is spread out, thus there aren't hotspots on every corner giving the public free connection.  Honestly I know more people with HDTVs than wifi, I know more people planning to buy a HDTV than wifi, and everyone I have talked to offline is disappointed by the news that there is no ethernet port on the console.  

The ugly:  How large of outdoor areas will be possible with a CPU one fifth the 360's.  How can they do a MMO without a harddrive?  How will we save downloads?  How will we save games?  Will we be allowed a universal friends list!?  Things are merky and Nintendo will not share target videos which should for no reason make them vulnerable to the competition stealing their ideas.  All that is hurt is Nintendo's image if they delay the showing of graphics and then the visuals really do turn out to be a let down.  If the visuals are not an integral part of the strategy of this console then why havn't we seen them.  Even running in 480p without 360's pixel standards it is unclear if Revolution will be able to match the polygon and lighting effects of 360 or will somehow Nintendo's ATI chip miraculously be a drastic improvement over the 360's and yet smaller.  


And then there is something we don't know about.  Coudl it be a packed in screen with the system?  A visor?  A projector?  Would it come across as a g'mick or a real answer to HD that doesn't require double development?  Will it come across like the PSone with its "portability" and screen?  Will it be as "portable" as VBoy?  Can't this just be pushed as a home console?

 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

You don't know any of that.

[Mario]

Yeah, it's funny, anything negative about the Rev so far is pure speculation.

EDIT: Also, everything positive there isn't fact either.

Let's analyse the FACTS

Pros
- New controller
- Looks pretty sweet
- New Super Smash Bros game
- New other Nintendo games
- Donkey Kong Jungle Beat can be played on it
- Super Mario Bros can be played on it
- No HD
- Doesn't play Tekken games
- Will be affordable

Cons
- No HD  

[Berto2K]

nemo....just shutup.  Your worried about hardware specs when we don't know anything about them.  All 3 systems will have different specialized hardware.

quit yer bitching already.

you know nothing, and have nothing to worry about till we get more info.

[PIAC]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83

aka

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83I love the sound of my own voice

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
The ugly: How large of outdoor areas will be possible with a CPU one fifth the 360's. How can they do a MMO without a harddrive? How will we save downloads? How will we save games? Will we be allowed a universal friends list!?

Why does this thread exist?

[KDR_11k]

How large of outdoor areas will be possible with a CPU one fifth the 360's.

*grabs Project IGI box* Well, if we can assume that a Pentium II 300 can handle a 10km x 10km (100km²) area and we assume that a modern PPC is about three times as fast per cycle and the Revolution CPU has 3x the clock frequency of the Cube's CPU, we'd have... 405*3*3/300*100km²... More than enough.

World size depends on RAM, not CPU. And it depends on how much space your world takes up. Elite had eight or nine entire galaxies in a few kB.

will somehow Nintendo's ATI chip miraculously be a drastic improvement over the 360's and yet smaller.

I don't see where you get the "smaller" bit from but Hollywood has about a year of tech development over the XC's GPU. At roughly comparable size that could mean a 2x performance increase. Even a cheap GPU can beat a more expensive one from two graphics generations ago.  

[hudsonhawk]

Nintendo could quiet a lot of these HD concerns by announcing 480p and widescreen support are required for every game.  Then it would at least be "HD-compatible" if not actually HD.

As an HDTV owner, this is the only thing holding me back from preordering a Revolution right now.  Call me shallow if you will - and you probably will, since there's a really wierd anti-HD sentiment here - but 480i games look really bad on most HDTV's, and games that don't support widescreen are even more annoying (you're either forced to stretch the game, which really uglies it up, or play it with bars on the side which makes my 42" tv effectively a 27").

HD is nice, but 480p games look good enough.  They just need to support it full-on and require it for every game, instead of half support it like they did with the Gamecube.

[animecyberrat]

I am curious DID Nintendo ACTUALY confirm there WONT be HD support os have they just said they dont want to support HD.  

[Ian Sane]

"Pros
- New controller"

I wouldn't consider that a pro.  It's too iffy.  It could end up being a huge con.  I'd say if anything would totally kill the Rev it would be the controller.  Changing a tried and true controller design that no one really felt was broken in the first place is a huge risk.  I would wait until there are some actual games being shown before I would declare that as a pro.  It is a fact that we're getting a new controller but it's not a pro until we have more proof (or ANY proof for that matter) that it's actually a good change.

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Pros
- Doesn't play Tekken games

LoL that's funny as hell

Ian, please find me one negative feedback from someone who has played with the controller. Then you can say that it's a possible con.
 

Here's my proof that it's a pro:

Quote
Asked whether or not Revolution's horsepower was insufficient, one development source said no. "At first, we were discouraged that it would be less powerful than Xbox 360, but once we got everything working with the controller, our concerns faded," he explained.  Other studios IGN Revolution has been in contact with have echoed this enthusiasm, always admitting that Nintendo's new console will be less powerful, but stressing that with the emphasis on the innovative controller it simply won't matter.

Sounds good to me, how about you?

[nemo_83]

Some people are going to have to face the truth, wash off the bias, you're not getting payed by Nintendo, and Revolution is not perfect.  If you thought the backlash against MS' 360 graphical letdown was entertaining you better put in your mouthpiece because the same wave of cynicism is coming Nintendo's way and the scrutiny may be even more intense.  

If I go to other forums, people say I'm too pro Nintendo, and I come here and you guys reassure me, I am not a fanboy.  I simply enjoy fun games, and Nintendo's console is the only one with a next gen controller.  There is nothing wrong with being truthful and speaking about the things I am both worried about and excited about.  Do not forget the topic is not just the bad and the ugly, first there is the good.  You are perfectly welcome to offer your opinions.  And if your opinion is the system is a sparkling piece of perfection, go right ahead and paint yourself a tool.  If you think I am wrong prove it, I would much rather be proven wrong, I would love for there to be magic elves inside the Revolution that somehow allow it to do things hardware four times its size by the same companies is overheating and melting to do.  The evidence I see suggests a conservative strategy by Nintendo.  

I have yet to be given any reason to believe that Nintendo's next console will perform equal or better than the competition even without the competitions pixel ratios.  There is no evidence that can prove Revolution is powerful.

When I said the REV CPU was one fifth the 360's I was counting the RAM with that.  If you go by MS' hype the CPU is nine times Nintendo's; I went by the RAM to define the potential of the CPU.  Maybe I'm wrong for looking for the medium, but you can't believe any developer will squeeze all the juice out of all three of the 360's cores.  Plus when I brought up the large areas issue of MMOs I was not just pointing at the RAM, but really the lack of even a hard drive.  For truly large worlds one needs a hard drive.  Telling developers they can grit their teeth and hammer out a way to stream worlds from the disc is not going to win you any popularity contests (especially when your disc is not likely to be anything but the smallest format once again).

Here is a quote from a Koei developer, "Matsuhara seemed to express some disappointment in Nintendo's use of flash memory instead of a hard disk, noting that 'a full 3D MMORPG (massively multiplayer Online RPG) may not fit.'"

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
I have yet to be given any reason to believe that Nintendo's next console will perform equal or better than the competition even without the competitions pixel ratios.  There is no evidence that can prove Revolution is powerful.

We also have no reason to doubt it will be on par.

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Here is a quote from a Koei developer, "Matsuhara seemed to express some disappointment in Nintendo's use of flash memory instead of a hard disk, noting that 'a full 3D MMORPG (massively multiplayer Online RPG) may not fit.'"

...This has to do with graphics how? Heck, even if its related the quote is dumb. MMORPGs store the character data on the server, not the client.

[nemo_83]

Talk of power does not just mean graphics.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Talk of power does not just mean graphics.

...A flash drive verses Hard Drive debate is about storage. But how does having 512 Flash storage instead of a Hard Drive make it weaker? So Devs will need to be more conservative with memory, so what...

[Ian Sane]

"Ian, please find me one negative feedback from someone who has played with the controller. Then you can say that it's a possible con."

No one has played any games yet and that's the big iffy part about the Rev.  The second the controller was shown everyone was like "Well that's nice.  How do I play ____ on it?"  There is a very large issue regarding compatibility with certain genres or types of games.  So to call it a pro this early to me is premature.  I would typically not categorize odd, unexpected change that no one wanted or asked for as a pro until I at least see it in action.  If remote games aren't that exciting and/or the remote is incapable of playing certain popular types of games then the controller would be a huge con.  Even with the shell as a safety net, if the remote bombs the Rev is at a serious disadvantage.  Without it the Rev is just an underpowered "normal console".

[Requiem]

God......Ian, I swear we've been through this before.

Name any game that wouldn't be able to use the NRC + nunchuck attachment effectively (other than fighting games - the shell well most likely handle those - even SSBM Online) and I'll prove you wrong in my next post.

Plus, if the DEVELOPERS (aka biggest game dorks ever) love the controller, is it hard to believe that you will too?

[Galford]

Well here I go...

Pros
-New controller(Could lead to gameplay possiblities)
-Cheap, easy, to afford
-Nintendo download service

Cons
-No HD (The Rev will look fugly outputting 480i when the competition is doing 720p and 1080i.)
-Underpowered
-No built-in ethernet (This is simply stupid on Nintendo's part)
-Lack of memory

Everything we know about Rev points to it being underpowered versus it's competition.  The Rev needs to be easy to port too so third parties will support it.

[RiskyChris]

This thread (OP at least) is very good.

The only con I'm worried about is the lack of an ethernet port (what the hell were they thinking?), but I remember reading that an adapter would allow you to plug into a USB port.  HD doesn't concern me, because after N64, graphics for games I enjoy don't matter (I still play SSB64 frequently).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

BEAT DEAD HORSES AT THE SCENE OF ITS DEMISE, NOT BUILD A NEW HOUSE TO STORE IT IN TO BEAT IT SOME MORE.

ANOTHER THREAD, ANOTHER TRAINWRECK.

GEEZ.

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Ian, please find me one negative feedback from someone who has played with the controller. Then you can say that it's a possible con."

No one has played any games yet and that's the big iffy part about the Rev.  The second the controller was shown everyone was like "Well that's nice.  How do I play ____ on it?"  There is a very large issue regarding compatibility with certain genres or types of games.  So to call it a pro this early to me is premature.  I would typically not categorize odd, unexpected change that no one wanted or asked for as a pro until I at least see it in action.  If remote games aren't that exciting and/or the remote is incapable of playing certain popular types of games then the controller would be a huge con.  Even with the shell as a safety net, if the remote bombs the Rev is at a serious disadvantage.  Without it the Rev is just an underpowered "normal console".

Didn't you read my whole post? I quoted developers who HAVE played games with the controller.  Oh and I wanted a change, I asked for it, bcuz I thought to myself, if nintendo only tries to improve their graphics, I might have to buy a sony, bcuz of the game support. I was thinking more along the lines possibly VR, but making a t.v version of the DS also crossed my mind.

Although I must say to the people who think that the rev will be as powerful as ps3 and 360 please share whatever it is you smoking, cuz it must be good. I believe many different nintendo people have reiterated that it will not, although they haven't said it straight saying "we're not entering the graphics war" is saying the same thing. It's like saying the swiss army is as strong as that of the U.S. Just cuz they don't fight ANY wars doesn't mean their army isn't weaker than the U.S's right?

Oh and the revolution isn't perfect (to agree with nemo) if it were it would have everything it does now, a hard drive, virtual reality, HD graphics, the ability to connect as many remotes to one console as you want, have sex with you, and launch for  $299. ok, but seriously it isn't perfect, but i just believe it's going to be the best system this generation, obviously not for it's graphical capabilities, but it's innovation.  

[Talon]

In the end it's the consumer who will have the last laugh.  Developers can praise the controller all they want but don't forget the developers have an invested interest in the Revolution.

Personally I don't think that Nintendo would release this sort of controller if it didn't believe that it could make absolutely BRILLIANT games with it.  So I have confidence in Nintendo that this is where the video game industry is headed.  We shall all have to wait until the Revolution is released to determine for ourselves whether or not that this new style of interaction is what you personally want.

[darknight06]

When I see screenshots and videos of anything revolution based that I can study really carefully, I'll start sharing my opinions on it all.  Right now I see nothing worth talking about other than speculation and IMO there's absolutely no use worrying yourself to death over numbers or any sort of specs that we don't even know for sure about.

[wandering]

As others have said, at this point, there's only one 'con': lack of HD support.

Outside of that, we know the controller will probably be great, the system will be cheap, the download service will be awesome, etc, etc, etc.

The graphics might be dissapointing, they might not be. We haven't seen them yet.  

[PaLaDiN]

They will be.

Xbox 360 graphics are disappointing, so I don't see how Nintendo can avoid that.

PS3 graphics will probably also be disappointing.