Topic: The GPU

[nemo_83]

So we know Nintendo is aiming at the smallest CPU possible, but what about the GPU.

toy shop

Aparently the toy shop demo at ati.com is the aim of Nintendo's chip.  It would only make sense for it to be more efficient and generally more advanced coming out a year after 360 and considering the R&D probably began on this chip long before the 360's.  

stills can be found here

There are aparently signs with the words Broadway and Hollywood in some video, perhaps the Toy Shop demo; I'm still trying to download the damn video to give it a look.  The German blogger maybe on to something with the Fast14 technique; ATI's latest chip may be using it.

I will edit this with further information; until then dig into the following patent on panoramic rendering filed by Nintendo


I'll be back some time around midnight when I give up on finishing my spanish homework before it's due.  

Until then I'll paste the following which I've posted before in another thread.

the latest quote from Miyamoto on the Revolution's last secret in its entirety.

"People's idea that video games were American grade school kids with their face pressed up against the TV made us want to design the new controller. Boring things will become interesting. But, I can't say any more."

an earlier quote:

"It's convenient to make games that are played on TVs. But I always wanted to have a custom-sized screen that wasn't the typical four-cornered cathode-ray-tube TV. I've always thought that games would eventually break free of the confines of a TV screen to fill an entire room. But I would rather not say anything more about that."


He's definately talking about the controller in the latest quote, but he is saying that the inspiration for the controller's motion capture spawned from their disappointment with the stationary televsion.


I found the following quote on a blog:

"Akihiro Hino (producer at Level 5, ´True Fantasy Live Online´, ´Dragon Quest VIII´) believes that the Revolution will give birth to new types of games. He is personally interested in making an RPG where you hold a shield in one hand, a sword in the other and mount a head set on our head"


Also here are two quotes from n-sider.com

"We invented the current way a console is played - in front of a television and holding a controller - but maybe that image will change." - Satoru Iwata, Nintendo President
May 13, 2004

"The concept of a home system today is defined as hardware that you tether to a box (TV), and you are tethered to it via a controller; we think that's an old paradigm."
- Reginald Fils-Aime
January 01, 2005









Cube mapping is as I understand it when one takes six flat perspectives and rolls them onto a sphere creating a panoramic view; Nintendo could basically take six views, (as opposed to the single box view we have in todays games which creates tunnel vision) wrap them onto a bubble in the game, and the perspective will emulate the way in which the human eye works. This could work well with a visor but I don't believe it would be required. This would be a low cost solution for gamers who can't afford an HDTV. One would be able to see characters running up from the left or right as if one saw them out of the corner of the eye. This could also allow gamers to move their character through a prerendered background in which the camera can move as the image is truly 360 degrees. Nintendo could take this and apply it to all their old 3d games without changing any graphics.  

[ThePerm]

that doesnt work for the same reason why we dont play tile based 3d shooters like doom

[attackslug]

You've got quite an interesting interpretation of cubemapping... let's just say that it's pretty far off.  

Movement in a panoramic cubemap is limited only to rotation in 360 degrees.  If you move close to any of the faces, the effect is ruined becuase it is that much more noticable that you are indeed "in a box".  Ever play MystIII?  That uses panoramic cubemapping (eg QTVR) in order to create its visuals.  You can't do anything more than change the direction of the camera.
Why would you need 6 different scenes in order to make a panoramic viewpoint for a 3d game?  You can achieve the same effect by "zooming out" the point of view to create a fisheye type viewpoint, allowing for one to have better periphrial vision (albiet distorted).  Panoramic displays using multiple screens have been done before in theme parks and VR simulators, but let me assure you that any visor with enough screens to do this would be some crazy $$$.

Trust me, don't put a while lot of faith into some of those wacky (mis)interpretations of patents that are flying all over gaming forums.  People seem to extract some pretty odd conclusions from these documents and get every one excited over nothing.  

[attackslug]

Oh, and that "dev blog" you have referenced?  Does the phrase "utter and complete bollocks" come to mind?  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

There are no Broadway or Hollywood signs in the HD Toy Shop video.

Blogger:  Sure they are!
Daisy:  WHATEVERR!

Like, TOTALLY!

Sample Slide/Pic in question, notice the BLACK Broadway street sign:



Downscaled caps I took from the video:

1min 45sec; consider the speed limit sign, electrical pole, fire hydrant, and green store sign as landmarks.


1min 55sec; new angle, after taxi took a right-turn.  see the nice big electrical pole?


2min 6sec; OH OH SEE THE NICE GREEN STREET SIGN IN THE LOWER LEFT?



However,
ANYBODY SMARTER THAN SEGA CAN TELL THE NINTENDO LOGOS WERE HORRIBLY PASTED ONTO THE SLIDES.

[cubist]

fake or not...that's probably the most entertaining post i've seen in the forums for revolution in a long time...because all other aspects have been sucked dry by the speculation based on exisiting released info from Nintendo.  It'll be a while.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I'd rather get Zelda screens but whateverr.

[BigJim]

If the GPU were based on anything resembling the X1800 family, Nintendo would be silly not to have HD. It's considerably overkill for SD.

As mentioned in the other thread, I think it'll be based on something closer to the X300 family. It has exactly 2x the clock speed of Flipper and it's ass-cheap.  

[BranDonk Kong]

There's no way they're using anything like the X1800. I have an ATI X800 GTO (X800, not X1800), and Call of Duty 2 looks just as pretty as the Xbox360 version.

[KDR_11k]

I don't know what kind of math they teach in the states but I have never heard of 8 sided cubes. 8 sided regular bodies are called octaeders. Plus there is absolutely zero reason for adding more textures to a cubemap (since the cubemap already covers the entire sphere). Animated textures work differently and have nothing to do with cubemaps (unless you choose to make animated cubemaps).

Nintendo could basically take six views, (as opposed to the single box view we have in todays games which creates tunnel vision) wrap them onto a bubble in the game, and the perspective will emulate the way in which the human eye works.

What's the point of that? The player doesn't see the entire sphere at once anyway. When you look around the gameworld changes so you could just as well render directly to the screen.

This could also allow gamers to move their character through a prerendered background in which the camera can move as the image is truly 360 degrees.

No. You can rotate the camera but not move it. That has been done since Myst.

[nemo_83]

Comcast sucks something vulgar.  My internet went out yesterday for pretty much all night.

Of course the Nintendo logos are pasted into the pictures, but that doesn't mean Nintendo or ATI aren't the ones who pasted them in.  I still havn't seen the toy shop video, but apparently the Broadway and Hollywood street signs may have been in some other video showing the same footage earlier in the year that only industry insiders saw.

I don't know; I need to go back to the blog and check it for updates now.  

It would kind of be overkill considering the Revolution is in HD.

When I gave my opinion of how Cube mapping could be used I was talking about in real time gameplay, not panoramic prerendered maps.  I was propossing that Nintendo could use the patent to take six perspectives in game, and roll those onto a ball allowing the player to see enemies sneaking up on them and getting rid of tunnel vision.

[ThePerm]

there is a broadway sign in the first picture, right above the taxi cab

[attackslug]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83

When I gave my opinion of how Cube mapping could be used I was talking about in real time gameplay, not panoramic prerendered maps.  I was propossing that Nintendo could use the patent to take six perspectives in game, and roll those onto a ball allowing the player to see enemies sneaking up on them and getting rid of tunnel vision.

I'm still unsure as to what you mean by this...
You can easily see enemies coming up around the player from all directions by switching to a third person view.  Or do you mean for this to be from a first person perspective?  Because if that is the case, all you'd need to do is zoom the point of view out considerably.  It would warp the perspective considerably, making it look kind of unusual (ever play as the Alien in the PC Aliens Vs Predator?).  Bottom line is (assuming I'm interpreting you correctly) that expanding the range of periphrial vision in a 3d game can be and is done in a much simpler and less resource-hungry fashion.

Also, taking multiple perspectives from realtime gameplay and superimposing them onto mirrors, TVs/monitors, water, distortion waves, etc. has and can be done on current and last gen systems.  

[nemo_83]

IF cube mapping worked out and didn't warp the image too much it would do wonders for the FPS genre; Nintendo has enough patents that I don't think MS and Sony would be allowed to use it for anything beyond water reflections in their games.

There are some blanks to be filled if they do use cube mapping in this way; such as, will this technique only be possible with a visor with custom round screens for each eye.

Wow, I can't believe I missed the Broadway sign in that picture.  

[BiLdItUp1]

Well the blog has been updated and those screens are fakes (see link to xenos pdf). So it can die now, after being baptized in the name of the devil.

[nemo_83]

I can't view PDF; does the PDF contain the same street demo with the Broadway sign?  

Also, nothing thus far on Xbox360 makes me think its chip can do the graphics in the pictures; especially the displacement mapping.  360's bump maps are flat as my ass; I spent most of my time in PDZ just examining the walls.

[BiLdItUp1]

nemo, the exact same diagrams that are in those cube pictures are in the xbox 360 pictures. The tendo logo was just dropped in and 360/Microsoft painted out. nuff said.l

[Dirk Temporo]

Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
there is a broadway sign in the first picture, right above the taxi cab

*WOOSH!*

[ThePerm]

dirk temproro said he didnt see them

[KDR_11k]

I was propossing that Nintendo could use the patent to take six perspectives in game, and roll those onto a ball allowing the player to see enemies sneaking up on them and getting rid of tunnel vision.

Why? Unless the player is in a ball displaying images that's not necessary as the extra rendered area isn't shown at all. Rendering what's going on behind you is completely pointless.

IF cube mapping worked out and didn't warp the image too much it would do wonders for the FPS genre; Nintendo has enough patents that I don't think MS and Sony would be allowed to use it for anything beyond water reflections in their games.

Cubemapping is present in all common FPS engines available for license these days.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

...the Toy Shop demo looks far above anything I've seen on 360.  This is BS, unless Nintendo really is utilizing some miraculous technology.

[KDR_11k]

Tech demos always look awesome because they're specially optimized and omit a lot of stuff a real game would have to care about.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Come on, did anyone really think that graphics on the Rev wouldn't look good...sheesh, the GCN has pretty good graphics, so having something 2-3 times more powerful will look very nice, and you really think ATi and IBM would come out with nice stuff for the Xbox and give the Rev crap...yeah right, they have their own reputations on the line as well, you can bet they'll find a way to produce some pretty good stuff on the Rev, even with weaker hardware.