Author Topic: 2-3 times powerful  (Read 32359 times)

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Offline Terranigma Freak

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2007, 11:19:28 AM »
As I said before a developer on the Beyond3d forums said that it's impossible to get a code to run badly on the GC, (and yes beyond3d is a reliable forum with real game devs hanging around) so take that for what you will.  

Offline IceCold

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2007, 02:45:39 PM »
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Offline Galford

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2007, 04:34:05 PM »
The PS2 held graphics back a lot last generation.  
Any one remember the conversations that we had with Jason back in the day?
He stated that the PS2 was responsible for a lot of 3rd party games looking like crap.
I've managed to talk to a couple other devs in my online travels and they have said similar things.

Here's a link to the original article...
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/05/08/geek-out-xbox-uber-boss-robbie-bach-takes-a-shot-at-nintendo-s-underpowered-wii-does-
he-manage-to-score-a-bulls-eye-or-just-shoot-himself-in-the-foot.aspx

I've heard the figure 8 tevs before, but according to patent applications the GC tev can have upto 16 stages in it???

For more infor about Nintendo's TEV/pixel combiners here a link to a patent that describes them in detail...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=9&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=Nintendo.ASNM.&OS=an/Nintendo&RS=AN/Nintendo

Namely this little piece of info from the link above...

"The association of lighting colors, texture coordinates, and texture maps with a recirculating shader stage is set using GXSetTevOrder. The number of texture coordinates available is set using GXSetNumTexGens. The number of color channels available is set using GXSetNumChans.

GXInit will set nStages to 1 as a default.

Arguments: nStages

Number of active recirculating shader stages. Minimum value is 1, maximum value is 16 Example usage: void GXSetNumTevStages( u8 nStages );
"

Are there any devs here that can clear things up?
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Offline Terranigma Freak

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2007, 05:57:39 AM »
Quote

I've heard the figure 8 tevs before, but according to patent applications the GC tev can have upto 16 stages in it???


Yes, someone over at Beyond3d also brought that up. I'm going to post your post at the forums there to see if they can give me a better answer. It sounds like whoever they interviewed didn't know the Wii/GC very well either.

Offline Galford

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #154 on: May 14, 2007, 05:49:41 PM »
Thanks, I appreciate that, it would be nice to clear some stuff up.
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Offline Terranigma Freak

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2007, 03:16:06 AM »
Apparently, it was due to the cost of performance if they used all 16 units on the GC. I'm guessing the Wii won't suffer as much thus allowing it to full utilize all 16 of them.  

Offline ShyGuy

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #156 on: September 24, 2007, 05:08:32 AM »

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #157 on: September 24, 2007, 05:12:05 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Ngai is back to trolling the Wii's horsepower http://72.3.228.88/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/09/24/is-wii-really-gamecube-one-point-five-yes-says-beyond3d.aspx


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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #158 on: September 24, 2007, 05:19:16 AM »
Should I have made a new thread? We need bump/create guidelines, darn it!1

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #159 on: September 24, 2007, 05:33:32 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Should I have made a new thread? We need bump/create guidelines, darn it!1


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Offline Pale

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2007, 05:45:15 AM »
No worries.  As I said before, I promote bumping if there is a good reason to bump a thread.  So in this case you posted on a new piece of info based on the same topic.  That's ok!  It's just bumping threads for a joke or in mass quantities that ticks me off.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2007, 06:46:23 AM »
Actually, that's a pretty decent article! Well written by those people at Beyond 3D.
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Online ThePerm

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2007, 07:31:50 AM »
that article is pretty much clearing up what we already know, so its pretty good. The thing is games should look better than they did on Gamecube easily. Theres slightly more processing power and alot more ram and more disk space as well. What cannot be achieved with shaders on wii can be achieved with a combination of lighting and textures(all shaders are is a mix of the two). If Capcom were to make a new game on the Wii from scratch it would look tons better than Resident Evil 4. Mario Galaxy is shaping up real nicely, Twilight princess on gamecube looked awesome...but it was designed for Gamecube! Thats the only problem with building games from existing gamecube engines is that the libraries for textures wont be that good. Which is why texturing on wii will have to be built for Wii
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Offline Chiller

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #163 on: September 24, 2007, 08:48:38 AM »
I can't help but take from the article that there is somehow a bitterness toward the success of the Wii on the part of the authors.  It seems as if they are equating the success of the console to the ignorance of the buyer.  They suggest that we really need to question if the gameplay, and presentation of games on the Wii is important enough to supersede the graphical prowess of the other systems.  Do we?  I though that playing a game, and enjoying it, was enough to determine its value.  I didn't know that we had to have esoteric discussions on the theoretical implications of graphics versus mechanics and style.  Sure, graphics are something to be considered, but at the end of the day, you will enjoy what you want, and don't need to beat yourself up that you aren't using the most cutting-edge hardware available.  

Another thing is that they play out all of these "what if?" scenarios, and assume the worst case for Nintendo.  What if Sony and Microsoft release similar controllers?  What if they drop their prices?  Won't this make the Wii insignificant?  Well, it could, but again, that assumes the worst from Nintendo's strategists, and the best from Sony and Microsoft's developers.  

PS3 already has a motion-sensitive controller, which has proven to be a mere afterthought.  It isn't too much to assume that the same could happen even with slightly more functionality, and a new form-factor.  One could extend this to the 360.  These machines have been catering to a different type of player.  Sure, there is some overlap, but at this point in the game, it seems plausible that new peripherals could very well be completely insignificant, much like the many failed peripherals Nintendo has released, themselves.

As for the price drop: what is to say that, given a significant push from the competition, Nintendo wouldn't match the drop?  They are already profiting from the system, and the production costs are surely dropping, as we speak, so why assume that they would sit by and watch the others come down to more attractive price-points?

And, of course, as many often state, with the under-utilization of the GameCube, it is hard to say how far developers could take standard-definition graphics on the Wii.  We may be able to give numbers on polygon-counts, et al, but those numbers don't necessarily translate into how a game will actually look.

Now, if they want to argue that, perhaps, we are overpaying for what we have gotten with the Wii, they might be able to make a better argument.  But, again, value isn't so cut-and-dry.

Again, all of this speculation on their behalf seems defensive.  I realize that they are "tech" guys, so they want to see cutting edge, and perhaps it irks them that the brainwashed masses are falling for the marketing (to paraphrase what they state).  None the less, their speculations seem vapid, and ill-conceived.  I realize that I, in the course of this post, made speculations, too; but they were merely as counterpoint to theirs, in attempt to show that the discussions they are suggesting aren't really constructive.    The points they suggest are moot.
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Offline UERD

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #164 on: September 24, 2007, 08:53:56 AM »
Quote

I realize that they are "tech" guys, so they want to see cutting edge


Would these guys be happier if consoles cost millions of dollars, incorporated supercomputer technology, and were manufactured in lots of ten per year? Yes? No? Then maybe they should keep their mouths shut. Like it or not, electronic entertainment is becoming more and more widespread. The console is a tool, an instrument. If I play a game on it, walk away, and feel that I have taken something of value from it, then it has done its purpose. End of story.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2007, 08:56:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Chiller
I can't help but take from the article that there is somehow a bitterness toward the success of the Wii on the part of the authors.  It seems as if they are equating the success of the console to the ignorance of the buyer.  They suggest that we really need to question if the gameplay, and presentation of games on the Wii is important enough to supersede the graphical prowess of the other systems.  Do we?  I though that playing a game, and enjoying it, was enough to determine its value.  I didn't know that we had to have esoteric discussions on the theoretical implications of graphics versus mechanics and style.  Sure, graphics are something to be considered, but at the end of the day, you will enjoy what you want, and don't need to beat yourself up that you aren't using the most cutting-edge hardware available.  

Another thing is that they play out all of these "what if?" scenarios, and assume the worst case for Nintendo.  What if Sony and Microsoft release similar controllers?  What if they drop their prices?  Won't this make the Wii insignificant?  Well, it could, but again, that assumes the worst from Nintendo's strategists, and the best from Sony and Microsoft's developers.  

PS3 already has a motion-sensitive controller, which has proven to be a mere afterthought.  It isn't too much to assume that the same could happen even with slightly more functionality, and a new form-factor.  One could extend this to the 360.  These machines have been catering to a different type of player.  Sure, there is some overlap, but at this point in the game, it seems plausible that new peripherals could very well be completely insignificant, much like the many failed peripherals Nintendo has released, themselves.

As for the price drop: what is to say that, given a significant push from the competition, Nintendo wouldn't match the drop?  They are already profiting from the system, and the production costs are surely dropping, as we speak, so why assume that they would sit by and watch the others come down to more attractive price-points?

And, of course, as many often state, with the under-utilization of the GameCube, it is hard to say how far developers could take standard-definition graphics on the Wii.  We may be able to give numbers on polygon-counts, et al, but those numbers don't necessarily translate into how a game will actually look.

Now, if they want to argue that, perhaps, we are overpaying for what we have gotten with the Wii, they might be able to make a better argument.  But, again, value isn't so cut-and-dry.

Again, all of this speculation on their behalf seems defensive.  I realize that they are "tech" guys, so they want to see cutting edge, and perhaps it irks them that the brainwashed masses are falling for the marketing (to paraphrase what they state).  None the less, their speculations seem vapid, and ill-conceived.  I realize that I, in the course of this post, made speculations, too; but they were merely as counterpoint to theirs, in attempt to show that the discussions they are suggesting aren't really constructive.    The points they suggest are moot.


I agree with you Chiller, but aside from that little slip on their part, the article was for the most part written without any clear bias.
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Online ThePerm

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2007, 09:21:13 AM »
i was going to get on that. If Sony or Microsoft try to compete with Nintendo on the price range Nintendo could judt lower the price, and release more colors. When they lowered the price of Gamecube the thing skyrocketed in sales and became hard to find, unfortunately there was a shortage and during the shortage xbox overtook it on sales again.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2007, 09:24:28 AM »
The $200 price point, so magical, so powerful, and soooo tantalizingly close!
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2007, 04:52:20 AM »
I read that article elsewhere and really disliked it.  The technical side is fine, but the whole conclusion left me cold with it's "Nintendo is trying to fool us with the controller, power is what really matters" slant.  They don't come right out and say it, but they imply it a lot, and in particular they bring up all of the old FUD arguments: Wii can't last very long, people will get tired of motion control, what will happen when HD becomes popular...etc.  I guess they're just so invested in high technology that they want to believe those tired old claims, but for a second there I was beginning to wonder if the article was sponsored by Sony or Microsoft.

Ultimately, I think it's nice that they came up with a technical proof that Wii is not very powerful relative to the new consoles, but it's not a big revelation.  Anyone with eyeballs could tell you that.
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Offline UERD

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2007, 06:45:37 AM »
Computers are tools...just like the people who do nothing but obsess over their stats without considering how well they perform their jobs.
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Online ThePerm

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #170 on: September 29, 2007, 12:30:09 PM »
playing n64 games lately iv come to the conclusion..they should have tried to make them even more cartooney! Soythpark 64 doesnt look bad at all, if more games went with a more cartooney approach they probably would have been crisper, screw crappy dithered blurry textures go for low color high contrast textures...id go for pixelation over blurriness
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Offline Ceric

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RE: 2-3 times powerful
« Reply #171 on: September 29, 2007, 02:52:40 PM »
Considering the source and the crowd that tends to gravitate to it.  The HD More Power is better vibe isn't that weird.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #172 on: September 30, 2007, 10:47:32 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: couchmonkey
They don't come right out and say it, but they imply it a lot, and in particular they bring up all of the old FUD arguments: Wii can't last very long, people will get tired of motion control, what will happen when HD becomes popular...etc.  I guess they're just so invested in high technology that they want to believe those tired old claims, but for a second there I was beginning to wonder if the article was sponsored by Sony or Microsoft.



I have to say, as far as what they're done with it so far, I am starting to get a little tired of motion control. Madden was neat in some parts but inexcusably sloppy in other parts (like its virtually impossible to rile up the crowd without accidentally calling defensive audibles)... ditto for Tiger Woods. A lot of the games use gestures that don't make any sense, and responsiveness isn't always all it could be.



Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #173 on: September 30, 2007, 10:49:02 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
Quote

Originally posted by: couchmonkey
They don't come right out and say it, but they imply it a lot, and in particular they bring up all of the old FUD arguments: Wii can't last very long, people will get tired of motion control, what will happen when HD becomes popular...etc.  I guess they're just so invested in high technology that they want to believe those tired old claims, but for a second there I was beginning to wonder if the article was sponsored by Sony or Microsoft.



I have to say, as far as what they're done with it so far, I am starting to get a little tired of motion control. Madden was neat in some parts but inexcusably sloppy in other parts (like its virtually impossible to rile up the crowd without accidentally calling defensive audibles)... ditto for Tiger Woods. A lot of the games use gestures that don't make any sense, and responsiveness isn't always all it could be.


Wait the examples you are giving are from EA games?
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Offline jasonditz

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RE:2-3 times powerful
« Reply #174 on: September 30, 2007, 06:20:55 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: jasonditz
Quote

Originally posted by: couchmonkey
They don't come right out and say it, but they imply it a lot, and in particular they bring up all of the old FUD arguments: Wii can't last very long, people will get tired of motion control, what will happen when HD becomes popular...etc.  I guess they're just so invested in high technology that they want to believe those tired old claims, but for a second there I was beginning to wonder if the article was sponsored by Sony or Microsoft.



I have to say, as far as what they're done with it so far, I am starting to get a little tired of motion control. Madden was neat in some parts but inexcusably sloppy in other parts (like its virtually impossible to rile up the crowd without accidentally calling defensive audibles)... ditto for Tiger Woods. A lot of the games use gestures that don't make any sense, and responsiveness isn't always all it could be.


Wait the examples you are giving are from EA games?


Yeah... they are the third party throwing the most support at the Wii, after all.

Anyhow, I don't mean to pick on EA... I'm just getting sick of the whole "gestures instead of buttons" idea.