Topic: On so-called "Gamers"

[BiLdItUp1]

This is completely ridiculous. (The link to to nytimes.com, you need to do free registration to see it.)

This is about the saddest thing I've read in a while (hot on the heals of watching "Requiem for a Dream".) PC games are a mystery to me, but really, if you need to pay a person in China to play the game for you, then either you shouldn't be a gamer, or the game isn't really a game, in which case you shouldn't be playing it at all. If this is what MMORPGs are all about, then count me out, thank you very much. Sickening

Here's the beginning, for the lazy:


"One of China's newest factories operates here in the basement of an old warehouse. Posters of World of Warcraft and Magic Land hang above a corps of young people glued to their computer screens, pounding away at their keyboards in the latest hustle for money.

Workers have strict quotas and are supervised by bosses who equip them with computers, software and Internet connections to thrash online trolls, gnomes and ogres.

The people working at this clandestine locale are "gold farmers." Every day, in 12-hour shifts, they "play" computer games by killing onscreen monsters and winning battles, harvesting artificial gold coins and other virtual goods as rewards that, as it turns out, can be transformed into real cash.

That is because, from Seoul to San Francisco, affluent online gamers who lack the time and patience to work their way up to the higher levels of gamedom are willing to pay the young Chinese here to play the early rounds for them.

"For 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, my colleagues and I are killing monsters," said a 23-year-old gamer who works here in this makeshift factory and goes by the online code name Wandering. "I make about $250 a month, which is pretty good compared with the other jobs I've had. And I can play games all day."

Oh, and this little tidbit is perhaps worse than all that:

"On eBay, for example, 100 grams of World of Warcraft gold is available for $9.99 or two über characters from EverQuest for $35.50. It costs $269 to be transported to Level 60 in Warcraft, and it typically takes 15 days to get the account back at the higher level.

In fact, the trading of virtual property is so lucrative that some big online gaming companies have jumped into the business, creating their own online marketplaces.

Sony Online Entertainment, the creator of EverQuest, a popular medieval war and fantasy game, recently created Station Exchange. Sony calls the site an alternative to "crooked sellers in unsanctioned auctions.""


 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't want to register... [/tantrum]

can you just post some key quotes from the article so that we get a better idea of what is said?

[IceCold]

Quote
...a 23-year-old gamer who works here in this makeshift factory and goes by the online code name Wandering

I knew it! _nintendo_fan

All jokes aside, that's pretty serious... I knew about this online trading, and I always thought that whomever actually bought accounts online was incredibly stupid, but I had never heard about this before. It's ridiculous.. wow.  

[Ending Walker Tropic]

What horrified me the most was their wages. 25¢ an hour? Get stuffed.

[KDR_11k]

Typical chinese sweatshops. MMO players are complaining about those "farmers" for years now. I've heard that games like FF11 have developed such a strong sentiment against farmers that it's turned into racism against the Chinese.

The problem with MMORPGs is how they are designed to retain players for months without having sufficient content for that so they just add some ultra-rare item drops and level grind. Also, medieval fantasy RPGs (as opposed to modern or futuristic RPGs that assume that a bullet to the head kills you, no matter how experienced you are) rely a LOT on numbers only, a high level character is an unstoppable killing machine when fighting lower level characters. People consider the goal of the game to become all-powerful. Add to that that the lower levels are usually pretty boring (we're talking about 20 hours of boring grind before you can do anything useful) and you can probably see why some people spend money to gain more power in the game. Of course that behaviour is looked down upon by players who work hard to acquire their items and people who buy characters on eBay often find themselves on the receiving end of a lot of hate and griefing.

Reactions by the companies running those games differ. Blizzard complains and threatens but does (almost) nothing, Square-Enix turns a blind eye to it, Sony encourages it on specific servers and most NC Soft members (except for the Lineage 2 guys) attempt to ban those sellers. Not sure about DAOC, AC, EVE and others though I think EVE allows players to cause so much damage to each other that some just hunt down and kill those farmers (which is quite profitable).

[wandering]

"One of China's newest factories operates here in the basement of an old warehouse. Posters of World of Warcraft and Magic Land hang above a corps of young people...."

....when I first read this I thought it said "corpse of a young person". Now that would be sad.
This, though, is just laughably pathetic.

 

Quote

Quote
...a 23-year-old gamer who works here in this makeshift factory and goes by the online code name Wandering

I knew it! _nintendo_fan

ahaha.

[UncleBob]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ending Walker Tropic
What horrified me the most was their wages. 25¢ an hour? Get stuffed.

Yeah, but it's 25 cents an hour to play games!  If I liked the games, I'd do it.

[KDR_11k]

More importantly, it's 25 cent in a country where that can buy a lot more than in the US.

[wandering]

Yeah, relatively speaking, the workers are getting a pretty good deal.

[KDR_11k]

It's not really a good deal but it's enough to live on.

[BiLdItUp1]

Wow KDR, so it seems like this has been going on since the inception of the genre. Damn. Why the hell would anyone play mmorpgs if the first 20hrs of gameplay are so boring?  

[KDR_11k]

Not exactly the inception (never heard of that happening with MUDs and UO and M59 didn't have it during their early lifespan) but online selling of items happened in Diablo 2 (not saying that was first but the first time I heard of it) and I'd guess that companies based on that happened not much later. But MMORPGs haven't been fun in the sense that Mario is fun since Everquest at least. I don't know enough about UO or M59 to make a statement about those and MUDs seem to be rather enjoyable because of higher community participation and almost having a DM like in the days of D&D.

I do remember Raph Koster's lectures on how to make a game as addictive as possible and apparently it derives from Pavlov's experiments. Pavlov said that randomly giving positive reinforcement will make the subject repeat the action for the length of its life despite being given no positive feedback. Koster was talking about the minimum level of positive reinforcement (i.e. progress) required to keep the user addicted while stretching the content as long as possible. Blizzard ignored that and ended up with an MMO that drew in players like mad but was discarded by many after a few months.

[BiLdItUp1]

Thanks, KDR. No chance of the situation changing? It's scary how they're using Pavlov to hook people in. Maybe EAD or Retro should make one, it would be interesting to see what they would do with it.

[JonLeung]

All I remember about Pavlov is how he rang a bell when a fan blew meat particles into a dog's mouth.  After a few times, if he rang a bell, the dog would drool, even if the fan/meat was no longer there.

My body formed a weird association in a similar way.  I must've sneezed a few times when thinking dirty thoughts; now when I have a dirty thought, I often sneeze.  o_0

Um, anyway, back on topic...

Games like this almost seem to be a task.  Like a second life...(oh, that reminds me, I have to play AC:WW today...)  And just as in life, there are stretches of uninteresting parts, but people will push through to get the rewards, of which there are probably more of in the game than in real life.  You'd hope so, anyway.

I can see myself tempted to take some shortcuts and pay someone if they were willing to work on a character of mine, that's for sure.  But if I was truly into this I think I would feel it to be more rewarding if I worked my character up myself.  If I had to pay someone to play a game I'd have to question whether I was having any fun with the game to begin with.

[KDR_11k]

No chance of the situation changing?

Not with the existing paradigms for MMO design, anyway. Richard Garriot wants to reinvent the genre to make something better with Tabula Rasa, Guildwars is going away from the concept of normal MMO and more towards small groups with very little levelling and barely any items you need to compete (and the option to create a fully decked out character for the PvP mode) and City of Heroes/Villains doesn't leave much room for selling things, the ultra rare stuff isn't as powerful and money can't buy much. I don't think item sellers are very active in those games (don't know how Tabula Rasa will turn out...)

Games like this almost seem to be a task. Like a second life.

You realize that Second Life is an actual game?

[Pale]

Most of what KDR has said is true (except for the MMO bashing.. )...

http://www.ige.com if you want to see a store in action...

It is true that it has, at the very least, turned into in game racism toward the Chinese.  Many many players will not play with ANY chinese person because they assume they are a gil/gold/moneyfarmer.

Companies who make the games can't do much about it, as Gil is delivered using in game means.  Square Enix does ban accounts for it, but they stick to the innocent until proven guilty mindset heavily.. which is important.  There needs to be extensive evidence in the chat logs before any banning occurs.

There are also some in game things done, at least in FF, to prevent it.  Namely, many of the low level obtainable high priced items have been changed to "exclusive" meaning that they can only be used by the person who originally obtains them and cannot be sold for profit.  This was done because everyone hoped the gilsellers wouldn't take the time to level their characters up... this has proved to be wrong though.

The farmers are the worst when they use exploits to make the money.  In FFXI, there have been a few ways to make monsters go unclaimed.  This was used by "bad" players in order to steal a monster away from another group in order to get the drop instead.  SE has taken steps to prevent this as well.

Players hate this because it devalues in game money, causing prices to rise.  For example, when I first started playing, the ultimate low level mage ring would sell for about 500,000 gil.  This in itself, is more than I've yet been able to afford.  The same ring now sells for 1.5-2 million gil.  I dunno if I'll ever have one.

As for KDRs rant against the "existing paradigm of MMO design..."  Its a very closed minded thing to say that all MMOs are crap.  I aggree completely that it definately turns off some players, and its fine if you don't like it.  Coming up with variations is good for players like you, but MMO design as it stands now definately has a place in many people's hearts and your rather elitist attitude about the whole thing is frustrating.


Edit: These games are also only as much of a "task" as you let them be.  For example, I've played FFXI for 2 years now.  My fiance plays with me, as well as my good friend, my sister, and her boyfriend.  We have a weekly night of partying together and enjoy the hell out of it.  I occasionally play on other nights when I feel like it.  Many players can cap their characters in 3 months of crazy play.  My highest job level is still 30 after playing for 2 years.. (cap is 75).  The reason why MMOs get a stigma of being only for crazy people is because you can actually see the crazy people when you play.

There are TONs of people who cap their characters in a game like Tales... or any other FF... they, in many ways, are just as crazy... yet many of you who bash MMOs enjoy these traditional RPGs because you play them your own way..  This "your own way" concept is what makes MMOs great... too many of you assume you have to play the way the crazies play  for some reason.. I'll never fully understand that.

[KDR_11k]

My main issue with MMORPGs is that it takes hours to gain levels and you're spending tens of hours fighting the same few enemies, then go to the next area and fight three new kinds of enemies. In an offline RPG you can just play for half an hour and you probably advanced the plot already. Plus you level up as much as you need just by following the plot. It's kinda like a hack&slay with slow levelling. An MMORPG takes months to finish, normal RPGs roughly 40-80 hours. Both have approximately the same amount of content.

Anyway, how are you going to prevent sellers and farmers in MMOs? You can only strip away what makes them rich: Either remove all forms of items or money or remove the repetitive tasks. I mean that as in "don't allow any gain from repeating the same few actions over and over again". Force players to do meaningful things (e.g. you can only advance by doing something heroic and a GM will be the judge of that).

[BiLdItUp1]

What's a GM?  

[KDR_11k]

Game Master, I think. DM is Dungeon Master (i.e. the guy who tells the story in a pen&paper RPG) and I'd guess GM is the complementary name for games with less or no dungeons. The MMO equivalent of a moderator.

[Pale]

You are right in saying the level grind is more severe in MMOs...  I hate to say it, but fans of the genre call that better realism.  If everyone could get capped in a few days, it doesn't mean as much to be capped.  See WoW for this.  They definately simplified what it is to level, and it is arguably the easiest game to level in.  Now, it is also (arguably) the most successful MMO of all time, but it's average subscription length isn't as long as a game like FFXI or the classic Everquest.  I know, to you this is more proof that devs are making the game addictive while not offering enough awards, and for you, this is reason enough to not play them.

Players however, often enjoy having such an interesting world.  If you see a capped character with multiple capped crafts and millions in equipment, you know they worked for it. (unless they employ other means as discussed in this thread)  You can decide for yourself if they worked for it in a healthy way or not, but its still interesting to see.

There are places for both types of MMOs, and I am fairly confident SE's next MMO, which is in development, will be of the opposite extreme that FFXI is.

So as usual when these arguments come up, I just need to mention that KDR has some legitimate points, but that doesn't mean other people share his views.  MMO design is an incredible undertaking and the devs deserve more credit than he gives them.  

[KDR_11k]

If everyone could get capped in a few days, it doesn't mean as much to be capped.

Does it have to mean anything? From what I understand the levelling in EVE doesn't make that much of a difference (you need a bit of it for some ship classes but after that it's just minor stuff like 10% more damage and such) yet the game has a huge following. Guild Wars lets you create a character that's already capped for PvP only, that comes down to strategy, not numbers.

The problem with relying too much on levels and numbers is that combat is too much bound to numbers. The other guy has a higher level? Unless he's damn stupid, the difference is not that big AND you're a master at the game you're automatically toast. At some point all strategy goes out of the window and it's just "who played this game longer".

If you see a capped character with multiple capped crafts and millions in equipment, you know they worked for it.

What kind of work did they do? Did they go against the odds and made huge changes to the gameworld? Or did they just bash monsters for hours on end and relied on their numbers to defeat all enemies?

There are places for both types of MMOs, and I am fairly confident SE's next MMO, which is in development, will be of the opposite extreme that FFXI is.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, SE sees that the traditional let-em-grind model pays off so they'll keep doing that. Hell, they're even implementing MMO paradigmas into offline games!

[Pale]

Everything you just described as being bad, most people think is good...  that's where you don't get it.

Some people like the idea of actually getting into character...  the more you practice something, the better you get.  What fun is creating a maxed out character just so you can test your strategy?  That isn't really role playing, more like action.

[KDR_11k]

If you're playing for the roleplaying then you don't need any numbers to keep playing. And I don't see how you can roleplay "let's kill some few hundred monsters to gain experience" properly. Or "I'll forge fifty swords to level up my crafting skills" for that matter. People don't roleplay enough to accept permadeath, I don't see why roleplaying should be an excuse for "who got the higher numbers" gameplay.

Edit: If you want the bottom of the barrel, try the manager Lucas Arts placed in charge of Star Wars Galaxies:
We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves.