Topic: Rare working on 2 DS games

[Darkheart]

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I for one still have hope for Banjo-Kazooie. It's my favorite platformer of all time, quite frankly.

[/sarcasm]Me too, I mean who cannot take joy of being a hillbilly backwoods bear with his cheerful sidekick, a bird whos permantly stuck within his napsack slowly sufficating.  Of course this quest is totally worth it because you have to save your little sister bear (who actually seems like the only sane character) from an old woman with 2 teeth whos obsession is abducting little girls for their bodies.[/endsarcasm]

I am sorry everything about the Banjo series screamed rip off to me of mario 64.  I wouldnt have minded if it was just the golden puzzle pieces, but they took the collectathon idea a bit far.  The feathers, jinjos etc.  was a bit demanding for me.  At least with Diddy Kong Racing, to me I felt they at least added some things to the Mario Kart idea.  Other than that the last Rare game prior to that I felt was nice was the DKC series which is now being whored all over the GBA.  

I suppose something like Jet Force Jemni would be nice, and could work very nicely as well with the Ds such as a few ideas they could do with Floyd.      

[wandering]

eh - I wouldn't call Banjo Kazooie my favorite platformer of all time (better than mario? Are you nuts?)....but I did really love it. The thing that sold the game was the absolutley incredible sense of style and humor. The game featured what is probably the best platformer overworld ever, and the best charachters/dialogue in a platformer ever. Add to that all kinds of little touches - from the creative save-game select screen, to the mole who teaches you new moves, to your character's house which doesn't really need to be there but is anyway. And then the gameplay, which is more character-driven and open-ended than Mario 64, is just top-notch. The game really throws all kinds of awesome, creative challenges at you.

The game gets a lot of flak these days for being too much the collect-a-thon, but really, it's not. Remember that, at the time, the game was ridiculously well received....and I think it deserved it. I think people tend to lump it in with DK64 and the like - forgetting, perhaps, that it really wasn't that bad. Requiring you to collect musical notes was definitely a bad idea, but, unlike DK64, collecting only became a pain towards the very end of the game.  

[NotSoStu]

Well, you're entitled to your (darkheart, not the guy above me) own opinion. Banjo-Kazooie is definitely a lot like Super Mario 64. Both have dumb storylines, non-linear levels, and similar gameplay elements. But that's the reason I loved Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie: It was more Super Mario 64 to tide me over until the next one. But Banjo-Kazooie is also an evolution of the 3D platformer. It added in new skills that you learn along the way, much like Metroid or Castlevania. Plus, Mumbo could always transform you into other animals. (Now that I think about it, Kameo is modeled around this element of BK.) Gameplay always felt fresh, new, different. So, yeah, I'd kill for a portable Banjo-Kazooie, if it was good.

Oh, and Jet Force Gemini on DS would be godly. Most underrated game ever.

PS: That's not how tags work. It'd be more like <sarcasm> </sarcasm>. Just FYI.  

[couchmonkey]

Rare has always had quirks.  I've heard a lot of people moaning about the awful control in Kameo...the fact is, Rare isn't afraid to try different control schemes and they often leave something to be desired.  You can't tell me you never had trouble with the controls in Blast Corps or Jet Force Gemini - Blast Corps had poor collision detection and floaty walking in the mechs, while JFG had floaty walking, floaty jumping, AND a really complicated setup to boot.  I don't think Rare has lost that much of its "magic", but I think some people were a little blinded by its exclusive relationship with Nintendo during the N64 days.

Personally, I love Rare in spite of its weak points.  Sabre Wulf is one of my top 3 for the GBA, and It's Mr. Pants isn't too far behind. I'd be glad to see some Rare titles on the DS.

Edit: Technically, Rare has produced 7 GBA games, including the DKC remakes, and that took 4 years (2001-2005).  It took them 5 years to produce 10 games games for the N64 (1996-2001), and they've produced 5 games in 3 years for GameCube-Xbox 360 (2002-2005).  
That's 14 games in 5 years for N64/GBC, and 12 games in 4 years for GBA/GCN/Xbox/360.  And while I'm at it, don't forget that Mickey's Speedway USA was developed at Nintendo's request.

[hudsonhawk]

I'll admit, after Starfox Adventures and the weak reception of the 2 Xbox titles (Conker was sort of "meh", and I never played Ghoulies), I was pretty skeptical of Rare as well.

But Kameo is unbelievable, and PD0 is very very good.  After playing those two games, it's clear that the Rare bashing is just sour grapes.

[Don'tHate742]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
It just wouldn't be a thread about Rare without some comments about how overrated they are and how they're lost the magic.  The only reason so many people here say that is because Rare's with MS now.  If Nintendo still had them the same people who rag on Rare would be tripping over themselves to defend them.  Grabbed by the Ghoulies as a Nintendo produced title would be defended by the same people that try to convince everyone that Luigi's Mansion and Pokemon Colloseum were great games.

Anyhoo since Rare made GBA games I see no reason why they wouldn't continue to make DS games.  It's probably a sweet deal for MS to leech of a competitor's product like this.  MS benefits from both Nintendo's failings as a console maker and their success as a portable maker.

Ian, you do realize that if RARE was still with Nintendo today, that Free Radical would have never been made. And so, the team that we once knew and loved, would be still intact and making great games.


Give me BATTLETOADS and KILLER INSTINCT!


Actually, f**k that. Give me Diddy Kong Racing!

[TMW]

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Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
I'll admit, after Starfox Adventures and the weak reception of the 2 Xbox titles (Conker was sort of "meh", and I never played Ghoulies), I was pretty skeptical of Rare as well.

But Kameo is unbelievable, and PD0 is very very good.  After playing those two games, it's clear that the Rare bashing is just sour grapes.

So...wait.  Are you saying that those two games make up for all of the sub-par games that Rare has made?  I can no longer say SFA was lackluster because Rare finally made some games up to their old standards?  

[vudu]

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And while I'm at it, don't forget that Mickey's Speedway USA was developed at Nintendo's request.

Did Nintendo request that the game be crap?

[hudsonhawk]

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Originally posted by: Don'tHate742

Ian, you do realize that if RARE was still with Nintendo today, that Free Radical would have never been made. And so, the team that we once knew and loved, would be still intact and making great games.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

The Free Radical team broke off of Rare between Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.  Free Radical was formed in 1999; MS bought Rare in 2002.

[Don'tHate742]

No sh!t......

I knew something changed when I played Perfect Dark. GoldenEye is just so polished and so everlasting. PD is fun but nothing like GD...meh...how is this relevant anyway.

[hudsonhawk]

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Originally posted by: TMW

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Originally posted by: hudsonhawk
I'll admit, after Starfox Adventures and the weak reception of the 2 Xbox titles (Conker was sort of "meh", and I never played Ghoulies), I was pretty skeptical of Rare as well.

But Kameo is unbelievable, and PD0 is very very good.  After playing those two games, it's clear that the Rare bashing is just sour grapes.

So...wait.  Are you saying that those two games make up for all of the sub-par games that Rare has made?  I can no longer say SFA was lackluster because Rare finally made some games up to their old standards?

Uh, no, I'm saying all this "Rare has gone so downhill!!!ONE!!" crap is unfounded.   They had some pretty mediocre games last generation (SFA being the most egregiously blasĂ© of them) there's no doubt about that.  

I'm saying that Kameo and PD0 prove they haven't lost their touch.  They're innovative, funny, and fun.  They're easily the best launch titles (I mean that in the strictest sense - games available the day the console went on sale) since Mario64.

I'd be willing to guess that most of the people busting Rare here haven't played any of their games since the move to the dark side.  

[Deguello]

"I'm saying that Kameo and PD0 prove they haven't lost their touch. They're innovative, funny, and fun. They're easily the best launch titles (I mean that in the strictest sense - games available the day the console went on sale) since Mario64."

That's pretty nutty.

Edit:  I just noticed Ian is a little more clever than we all expect.  He has made it totally impossible to have any opinion of Rare in this thread.

If anybody isn't particularly excited over Rare's DS efforts, they are bitter Nintendo fanboys still wounded over Rare's buyout by MS.

If anybody is excited, they are hypocritical fanboys who are only excited because Rare is supporting a Nintendo system.

A veritable Catch-64, if you catch my meaning.  Pretty sneaky.  But then he says something dumb like "MS profits from DKC ports"  Which is just nutters.

[Mario]

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It just wouldn't be a thread about Rare without some comments about how overrated they are and how they're lost the magic. The only reason so many people here say that is because Rare's with MS now.

HAHAHHAHAA

You seriously haven't noticed any OTHER difference with Rare?

Ian has to be a joke character, made by a PGC staff member to increase forum traffic.

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Grabbed by the Ghoulies as a Nintendo produced title would be defended by the same people that try to convince everyone that Luigi's Mansion and Pokemon Colloseum were great games.

YAY let's generalise everything! Logic? GET OUTTA HERE I'M A BIG ANGRY BALL OF GASLuigi's Mansion ROCKS and Pokemon Colloseum sucks

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I'm saying that Kameo and PD0 prove they haven't lost their touch. They're innovative, funny, and fun. They're easily the best launch titles (I mean that in the strictest sense - games available the day the console went on sale) since Mario64.

Since Super Mario 64 DS, maybe.

- SFA is one of my favourite VG soundtracks, and while I still love the game, I was more excited about it while watching the trailers than actually playing it.

- If Rare releases a DS title I hope it's a straight port of Perfect Dark. I can't really think of anything else that i'd even care about, but hey maybe they'll surprise me! Oh wait, a new SabreWulf would be pretty neat, but Rare dont make new games.

[Nephilim]

Unles its KI or PD
then I dont care

[joeposh]

I've been saying for a while that I think a game like Blast Corps would be perfect for the DS. It would allow them to map alot of the diverse control schemes onto the touch pad and make them more intiutive to control (i.e. make a motion on the touch screen to make the dump truck spin out). Hate them or love them, they still make at least DECENT games which is more than I can say for alot of other western publishers currently working on the DS. So if MS wants to let Rare develop for the DS, I'm all for it. The idea of Wi-Fi Perfect Dark alone has me eager to see what they come up with.

[Ian Sane]

"You seriously haven't noticed any OTHER difference with Rare?"

Well I did think Star Fox Adventures was absolute crap.  I'm just saying that a lot of the negitivity is the result of Rare going to MS.  I don't think their Xbox games were anything fancy but they did make some pretty good GBA games and so far their X360 games have received good reviews.  It's mostly the attitude that it's good that Nintendo dumped them or that they never were that great that I feel is largely caused by sour grapes.  I think Rare was in a slump and have started to come out of it.  I think that's what most Nintendo fans would have felt if Rare was still with Nintendo.

Really they released, what, two bad games in a row?  And while people talk about how "bad" Rare was towards the end of their Nintendo run they focus on DK64 and SFA and completely forget that their second last Nintendo game was Conker and it ruled and before that Perfect Dark was absolutely awesome.

Rare's slow output on the Xbox was likely a result of the switchover.  Kameo for example was originally on Cube hardware.  Had they stuck with Nintendo they might have released more games.  Plus MS cut the Xbox life short.  Maybe Kameo or PD0 could have been released on the Xbox last year but MS decided they should wait for the 360.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Don't ignore Mickey's Speedway.  Do not ignore Mickey's Speedway.

And the fact that Conker was in dev. longer than PD was, originally planned to come out early in the N64's life; that's a lot of time for one dev. team to "waste".  I like Conker, it had a great variety of scenarios, but for me it's difficult to revisit.  I appreciate what it offered for its time.  But the controls, ugh.

JFG i liked until I defeated Mizar the first time... then it became a search quest in a game world that wasn't easy to navigate.  Ugh.

DK64, SFA, we know how they turned out.

I'm not a DKC nor KI fan.

Only PD and DKR stand the test of time for me.

[Kairon]

The only Rare game I absolutely loved was Conker. I am still eagerly awaiting a true sequel. It's actually odd that I love this gamer, because it's the exact opposite of what Miyamoto does: style over substance.

My younger bro was a JFG fan but I couldn't be bothered to touch it apart from doing some floyd co-op, the game felt like a real big timesink. I didn't like Bajo Kazooie at all, and DK64 illustrated to me that Rare didn't learn anything from the collectorama that BT was. I always viewed KI as a one-hit wonder, the only reason I remember Blast Corps at all is for the jewish harp in its music...

I'll admit I enjoyed PD, but truly only for co-op play. In fact, I enjoyed FF:CC for the co-op play I got with my younger brother, so take that for what it is. Either way, not nearly enough to make me miss. But I am reminiscent of Joanna Dark's less sensationalistic image in-game at the time that satisfyed my inner feminist. (the Ads, on the other hand...lol)

So there you have it. I'm a Nintendo Fanboy and the only Rare game I ever liked was Conker. Everything else to me seemed materially flawed. I think even Miyamoto considers them this way, as I remember it being reported that JFG convinced Miyamoto that third-person shooters just can't be made to work.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[wandering]

"I think Rare was in a slump...."
Yeah, I slump where 50+ people left the team. Personally, though I'd love to beleive otherwise, I think there's no way around the fact that Rare is a sad shell of it's former self. Like Nintendorks.

Though I do agree with you that people who contend that Rare was always mediocre/overrated are full of it. Or else they have legitimite opinions worth considering, which ever. They're wrong regardless.

Off topic, I was reading up on Rare on wikipedia, and I read mention that Microsoft offered Nintendo Rare's IP (Banjo Kazooie, etc) for 20 mil. Apparently, there's still no word on whether Nintendo has decided to accept. That seems like a steal....esp considering how much Microsoft paid for Rare. If it were to happen, Microsoft would be left with Rare-in-name-only, while Nintendo would be free to make huge amounts of cash on Rare's various popular franchises. Anybody else hear about this?

[RABicle]

Donkey Kong Coutnry 1, 2 and 3, Killer Instinct, Ken Griffy Jr's Slugfest. THIS IS FIVE GAMES IN A ROW!
More like Rare have only ever made 4 worthwhile games.

EDIT: For those of you playing at home, sitting around scratching your heads "wow four seems like a very large number, Rare havent made that many good games" I'm being generous and calling Diddy Kong Racing good. The other three are obvious.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: wandering
Off topic, I was reading up on Rare on wikipedia, and I read mention that Microsoft offered Nintendo Rare's IP (Banjo Kazooie, etc) for 20 mil. Apparently, there's still no word on whether Nintendo has decided to accept. That seems like a steal....esp considering how much Microsoft paid for Rare. If it were to happen, Microsoft would be left with Rare-in-name-only, while Nintendo would be free to make huge amounts of cash on Rare's various popular franchises. Anybody else hear about this?

FWIW, I think you read that wrong...

"In February of 2004, gaming news sites reported that negotiations were ongoing between Nintendo and Microsoft for Microsoft to acquire Rare's characters and trademarks from Nintendo. According to various articles, Microsoft has reportedly offered Nintendo approximately $20.2 million for the trademarks and characters. As of 2005, it is unknown if Nintendo accepted Microsoft's $20.2 million offer."

The statement says that Microsoft offered the 20 million in exchange for the IP *from* Nintendo.  You had it the other way around. Second, my understanding is that the only IP that Nintendo had left after the deal was the ones they rightly owned, which are DK and Starfox.  Rare never owned that IP.  So either:

- This never actually happened (likely)
- Was a "joke" offer by Microsoft for rights to DK and Starfox
- Some other IP that I'm missing that Nintendo retained
- Wasn't actually for the IP, but perhaps something else

... just FYI...

[hudsonhawk]

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Originally posted by: RABicle
Donkey Kong Coutnry 1, 2 and 3, Killer Instinct, Ken Griffy Jr's Slugfest. THIS IS FIVE GAMES IN A ROW!
More like Rare have only ever made 4 worthwhile games.

5??  Give me a break.

I'll start at 1986, since that's when I started playing console games.

R.C. PRO-AM
WIZARDS & WARRIORS
CALIFORNIA GAMES
MARBLE MADNESS
COBRA TRIANGLE
SILENT SERVICE
SUPER OFF ROAD
PIN BOT
BATTLETOADS
SUPER R.C. PRO-AM
KILLER INSTINCT
DONKEY KONG COUNTRY
BLAST CORPS
GOLDENEYE
DIDDY KONG RACING
BANJO-KAZOOIE
PERFECT DARK
CONKER’S BAD FUR DAY
KAMEO: ELEMENTS OF POWER
PERFECT DARK ZERO

A case can be made for every game on that list.  There are other games on their resume that other people revere that I really don't care for, but whatever.  You can nitpick games off that list and whine that you didn't like them, but you'd be missing the point.  Most of these games are either loved, liked, or were highly regarded in their time.

The point is - how many small-house developers are there that have been around since the 8-bit era?  That are still around and making good games?  At a rate of 1 per year, for a sustained 20 years?  

[Kairon]

I'm not going to buy a developer today for the games that they made back in the 80's or early 90's. Rare has undergone some major loss of talent, is no longer a "small house" but a bloated money-sinking 250+ employee company that takes forever to get a game done, and has been questionable in the last two eras regardless of what games they made beforehand, which is more indicative of their future performance than their work on the NES. and SNES.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[couchmonkey]

People keep saying Rare lost 50+ people in the MS transition.  Rare's line on the subject:

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"More than half our talent" leaving would only be accurate if our entire talent at the time was in the single figures.

Hmm, who should I believe?  People that are bitter that Rare left (or just dislike Rare in general) and know nothing about the company, or Rare itself?  What a hard choice.

Edit: Having sent out the gratuitous complaints, I want to add that I don't mind people who never liked Rare as much as people that used to love the company and think it's been going downhill. I just don't think that's very true.  The only major problem it has had is huge game delays due in part to switching consoles twice in three years.

[Deguello]

"The only major problem it has had is huge game delays due in part to switching consoles twice in three years. "

I'm not sure this argument holds water anymore simply for the fact their GBA games faced numerous delays too.  Unless you wanna say that adding Banjo to Diddy Kong Pilot took them 3 years, that it took them 4 years to take out DK from Donkey Kong Coconut Crackers and add in It's Mr. Pants.  And according to Rare itself, they claimed they were finished with SabreWulf in Early 2002.  And one year after the sale they were able to squirt out a game that was previously unannounced.  Then it took them 2 years to port an N64 game, and then 4 years to port a GC game.  So no, the whole "They were unfamiliar with the hardware" idea doesn't float.  They obviously knew enough about it to make a game one year after the acquisition.  How long is a company allowed to get its act together before people start questioning their quality?

Have you even considered this possibility?  The fanboys are right!  Rare has declined in quality!  Nintendo was right, too!  And pretty clever, as they even found a way to pump money out of the corpse while MS screws it and gives Nintendo money for the privilege!

Also consider this, why is it the first thing you thought at the idea of Rare DS games, is ports of their N64 games?  What, do you not have any confidence that they can create something new?

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"More than half our talent" leaving would only be accurate if our entire talent at the time was in the single figures.

Hey, they said it, not me.  You know, when the nerds leave the classroom, the jocks tend to do worse on tests.