Author Topic: More Sony Lies  (Read 28884 times)

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Offline Dasmos

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2005, 09:07:59 PM »
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Originally posted by: nemo_83
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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Haven't we been through this?  Putting regular funtions on the remote would not only ruin what Nintendo's aiming to do, but it would suck too.


I'd rather have an analog stick/trackball button combo than a dpad/a button combo on the revolution remote.  Think about how you are going to control the camera in Zelda when you are using the remote to swing the sword.  Will we have to endure having to hit a button to switch the functionality of the 3d motion control between camera control and weapon control?  

Or will they use the wavebird shell for Zelda?


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Offline wandering

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2005, 05:24:11 AM »
Actually, I've been a little worried about how camera control will work. But I'm thinking  that games that need it will use either the d-pad or the gyro....and I'm thinking further that Nintendo will try to eliminate the need for camera control in a lot of it's games. I've always kind of felt that they came close to that with Ocarina of time - but then kind of took a step backwards with the cube generation.
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Offline Gamebasher

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2005, 09:00:10 AM »
KDR_11k, I say the things that I do because I think that the market is going to change dramatically in the times that lie ahead.

I don´t care! if Sony can still attract developers who assume they will be able to make big sales on games that are hard to develope. That will not continue for long!! With the cost of developement going up all the time, fewer and fewer developers will want to take the risk of investing millions of dollars they may never see a healthy profit from. I see this proved in the many bankruptcies that have already taken place, mergers and what not. I also just read about some developers at Konami who are making games exclusively for Sony PS3, who are stating secretly that they may jump to other platforms because they are tired of how hard it is to develope for the Playstation 2/3 platform! Developers are also human you know, and it isn´t all about money, but also about them avoiding being burned out alltogether for the reasons of iron hard developement cycles!

I think that Nintendo is being 100% right about their way of approaching games and how they brand the super graphics in them unnesscesarry. Gameplay is the most important of it all, as merely looking on cool graphics and limited fun isn´t going to do the job of selling millions of copies to consumers. I have seen Ridge Racer on the PSP, and I am impressed over the graphics there but not over the gameplay. I have seen it all before, and have tired of it! It would last me a week, and then I would get rid of it never wanting to play it again. So it is with nearly all of the PSP games out now. And you can play nearly all of those same games bigger and better on a TV! Which is probably why it isn´t the huge success Sony thought it would become! People have seen it all before.

I read about people who say that the XBOX360 launch games (which they have sampled secretly by courtesy of Microsoft themselves) aren´t as many times better than current xbox games as they were expecting them to be, that they do not at all surpass what can be shown on a nicely tuned PC. They are n other words just slightly better than current XBOX games. To get something that is not even twice as good as what can be seen on the current XBOX, Microsoft will charge people over 400 dollars for the premium version without any games. That makes 600 dollars minimum with two games and counting!

Now, 600 dollars may be affordable to those people who do nothing but play games. But to most of the average consumers this is too much money. It may be more attractive to get a Nintendo Revolution at 200 dollars next year with EVERYTHING included and adding a few hundred dollars more for two great Nintendo games. So they will wait it out.

What I am saying here, is that Microsoft don´t fit the bill! Yes, the XBOX360 may be cool enough to play on, but people will definitely want to see that it is really really worth playing them games coming out on it, before they go and invest that much money in it! Heck, people have Playstations, Xboxes and GameCubes as well as handhelds already stacked up in their rooms so why should they invest that much more money in a 1  1/2 upgrade? I think they simply wait it out until the games get 2 or 3 times better to look at, and until then will keep what they´ve got already. DS or PSP or XBOX or Playstation or GameCubes - whicever it is that they own now. Nintendo has been bashing Microsoft for a lomg time for coming out too early with their next-gen console, and I think we will see that things turn out exactly as I have said: people won´t buy it! At least not in the numbers Microsoft thinks! Sales may be big at the launch day, but will flatten out soon after. So it will probably be the same as with the PSP. If not, I will be surprised. But I think my theory will hold.

So that leaves for me to include the developers and how they will go about it. Well, they will follow the consumers tastes and develope for the gamesystems that are most popular of course. So they will follow closely what happens with Xbox 360 now and then they will decide if it is worth developing for. Nintendo is likely, though, to attract a lot of developers, and which they already has even now, who will want to utilize the fantastic opportunity that lies in front of them thanks to the new controlsystem coming on Nintendo Revolution. I just read a Gamesindustry.biz interview with several japanese developers who are crazy about the Nintendo Revolution and the opportunities for game development that it gives them.

The ease opportunities which the Revolution gives them, along with the ease of developement possible with it too, and the significant drop in costs, will set a new trend which I believe stands to be so big in the end that it will turn other developers away from Sony´s rock hard developement cycles and over to Nintendo as well as Microsoft. Sony apparently thinks they can tell developers that they are the King of it all, and that developers will just have to stay onboard nomatter how hard it is to develope for, and tell us who are the gamers that we will have to work hard to afford the games. It´s absolute nonsense, and contains a level of arrogance which will bring them down if they continue like that!

So no matter how much you may claim that I am not being realistic when I see Nintendo as being very successfull, attracting big numbers of developers and consumers alike, I see it written in the ongoing defacto situation in the videogamemarket! And what I see, is what Nintendo saw first.


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Offline nemo_83

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2005, 10:42:38 AM »
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Originally posted by: wandering
Actually, I've been a little worried about how camera control will work. But I'm thinking  that games that need it will use either the d-pad or the gyro....and I'm thinking further that Nintendo will try to eliminate the need for camera control in a lot of it's games. I've always kind of felt that they came close to that with Ocarina of time - but then kind of took a step backwards with the cube generation.



Targeting was imaginative with the N64 which only had one analog stick, but now they could avoid this.  They could allow us to target enemies to attack, but they could also allow us to control the camera so a wizard doesn't hit Link with a fireball while our back is turned.  I like the way the camera in the old 2d games was at a three quarters view and they could set the camera like that again with the Revolution version, but everyone enjoys the option of being able to put the camera where they want it, whether that is right in Link's face or a thousand feet away.  The more options the better.  Targetting allows it not to be a neccessity.

I wonder if they will finally give Link a jump button.


It is less of an issue, but in shooters it would be cool to be able to shoot in one direction and look in another, especially when you are trying to control the game with two remotes.  Do you really want to go back to controlling character movement and camera with a dpad?
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2005, 10:54:25 AM »
"I wonder if they will finally give Link a jump button."

Link should NEVER EVER EVER EVER have a jump button (EVER)...If a button is ever used to make Link jump it should be through an actual item (Roc's Feather)...
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2005, 11:11:45 AM »
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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"I wonder if they will finally give Link a jump button."

Link should NEVER EVER EVER EVER have a jump button (EVER)...If a button is ever used to make Link jump it should be through an actual item (Roc's Feather)...


Explain why you believe he should never have a jump button.  Is it because of accessability, tradition, or something else?  The auto jump has gotten to me over time.  Too many times in WW did Link jump in a straight line, unbending beyond his decision to leap from platforms.  The game has entered into 3d.  If they are going to require players to aim vertically to hit the bat with an arrow then they should allow us to control Link's jumping.  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2005, 11:29:07 AM »
We've had three 3D Zelda games already with an automatic jump button, and the experience was in no way diminished...Because of that, there's no reason to put in a button to jump and complicate the controls even further to perform an action that is already perfectly applied...Zelda is not a platformer...If jumping puzzles were in the game then I'd allow usage of Roc's Feather/Cape in the form of an item, but because jumping is not important in Zelda otherwise, there's absolutely no reason for a button dedicated to it's function...
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2005, 11:30:36 AM »
I don't want Link jumping because I'm not very good at platformers and if they made it so I have to time these amazing jumps like in the 3D Mario games I would be screwed.  Zelda isn't a platformer so I don't want to be forced to have platformer skills to complete it.  Zelda is mostly about puzzle solving and exploration and it benefits greatly from not requiring mad gamer skillz to do well in.  Zelda requires a brain.  If you can figure out what to do you can do it.  Even the bosses are largely about figuring out how to beat them instead of endless dodging.  Adding platforming would take that benefit away.  It's the same reason I don't want Zelda to be a "sword swinging" game.

The auto-jump makes the jumping portions less about platforming skills and more about figuring out when to jump and where to jump from.

Offline vudu

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2005, 11:36:50 AM »
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The auto-jump makes the jumping portions less about platforming skills and more about figuring out when to jump and where to jump from.
Exactly.  If you can't jump from point A to point B it's because you're not supposed to be able to.  You never have to try over and over again thinking "maybe if I jumped just a half second later I could make it to that ledge".
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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2005, 11:42:11 AM »
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Too many times in WW did Link jump in a straight line

Because sometimes when I jump I suddently change directions.  This one time I accidentally jumped into an old woman.

HILARIOUS SATIRE aside, other people said words with which I agree.
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Offline Artimus

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2005, 11:47:37 AM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't want Link jumping because I'm not very good at platformers and if they made it so I have to time these amazing jumps like in the 3D Mario games I would be screwed.  Zelda isn't a platformer so I don't want to be forced to have platformer skills to complete it.  Zelda is mostly about puzzle solving and exploration and it benefits greatly from not requiring mad gamer skillz to do well in.  Zelda requires a brain.  If you can figure out what to do you can do it.  Even the bosses are largely about figuring out how to beat them instead of endless dodging.  Adding platforming would take that benefit away.  It's the same reason I don't want Zelda to be a "sword swinging" game.

The auto-jump makes the jumping portions less about platforming skills and more about figuring out when to jump and where to jump from.


Aha. Now we finally get the reason Ian fears change: he's afraid he'll start sucking!

Offline nickmitch

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2005, 12:32:49 PM »
Roc's feather only works in the 2(.5)D Zelda games. The 3D Zeldas should have no such thing.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2005, 01:16:59 PM »
Bunny Hood is awesome and lets you jump farther.

YES
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2005, 02:07:53 PM »
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Originally posted by: TVman
Roc's feather only works in the 2(.5)D Zelda games. The 3D Zeldas should have no such thing.

Well not like there's any indication of it sucking in a 3D game...
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Offline odifiend

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2005, 06:24:39 PM »
Link has the potential to look bad ass in Roc's cape!  Who cares how it would control?

I like how Bill is semi-unwilling to compromise.  NEVER EVER EVER unless Roc's ___ is used.  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2005, 09:03:33 PM »
While jumping in 2d Zeldas rocks indeed (though mostly in the sidescrolling parts), in 3d you have to work with that camera and have to guess positions in space. That sucks.

I do think the rod should control Link's hand directly, that allows for more creative and less obvious puzzles. Instead of running up to a statue, pressing A and the game telling you "there's a round opening on that statue" or if you have the item in hand "you playe [item] in the opening", you could just stand in front of it, look at it and see the opening. Then you draw some item and try to jam it in there. Or you see exposed gears somewhere. Usually the game would tell you that's a hotspot and suggest that you can jam them with an item, on the Rev there could just be the turning gears, you look at them, grab a stick and try to block the gears with it. The more actions the player can do, the more actions a puzzle can involve.

Offline IceCold

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2005, 09:10:03 PM »
It's great how the Sony sales thread has sprung to life with Zelda conversation, while the Zelda thread is dead, isn't it?
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2005, 07:49:55 AM »
Well, the Zelda thread was so long that noone could read it.

Offline vudu

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2005, 09:17:15 AM »
KDR - Your suggestion sounds like it would be better suited for a Resident Evil game.
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Offline TMW

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2005, 12:03:25 PM »
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Well, the Zelda thread was so long that noone could read it.


I actually read through the entire thing back when it was at 80 pages.  That was a fun day.
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Offline stevey

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2005, 02:06:10 PM »
"I'd rather have an analog stick/trackball button combo than a dpad/a button combo on the revolution remote. Think about how you are going to control the camera in Zelda when you are using the remote to swing the sword. Will we have to endure having to hit a button to switch the functionality of the 3d motion control between camera control and weapon control? "

Have you played a 3d zelda before? you uses R for camera control and Dpad up for fpv and use the remote to look around  
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Offline UniversalJuan

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2005, 09:25:46 PM »
So uh, this whole jumping in zelda thing...are you all just ignoring Zelda II: The Adventure of Link or does it "not count"? I'm just asking because the ability to jump in that game was as clear as day.
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Offline Myxtika1 Azn

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2005, 10:47:21 PM »
I think that what Bill and KDR are sayin is that jumping is ok for 2D Zelda games but not for the 3D ones.

I would not want Link to have a jump button either just because.
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Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: More Sony Lies
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2005, 06:13:38 AM »
I think the automated jumping in the 3D Zelda more than gets the job done.  I hate having to decide how far a distance is, fighting with a camera and then make th ejump only to learn that even though it looks close enough to make, it really is too far.
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:More Sony Lies
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2005, 11:55:58 AM »
Zelda II was weird.  My argument is that the series has entered 3D and with the Revolution will feature streamlined combat focused on the remote allowing anyone to pick up and have a ball killing chickens and cutting grass again.  With the greater focus on 3D and streamlining the combat there is now room for a jump button.  Already one can jump when locked on in WW; all I am suggesting is expanding this literal control throughout the game.  I am not suggesting the gameplay require you to platform, but I am suggesting limiting the need of locking on.  I want to be able to goof off swinging the sword while controlling the camera.  I want to be able to fight without locking on.
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