Topic: G4 Interview with Iwata Reveals New Details

[BigJim]

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So, when people on this board say things like they're going after an unproven niche non-gamer market, that's frankly completely ridiculous. They're going after everyone, by making a more mainstream-friendly console, and I think their strategy will work. Psycho was more popular than more hardcore horror films like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Myst was more popular than Battlefield 1942.

The real issue here, I think, is that people are just not liking the controller. Sorry you don't like it....but you just can't argue that it's not functional. If it didn't have any buttons then that'd be another thing, but it does have buttons. A lot of buttons. Devs love it. It'll work for the majority of games. And for the small minority that need 2 extra buttons and a stick, Nintendo is even providing a traditional controller.

Well, there are really two things happening. Nintendo claims their focus on everybody is their reasoning behind the controller. Those that are not satisfied with their "everybody" focus aren't going to approve the concept of the controller wholesale since to them it reads as "more of the same". Since they depend so much on their own games, if Nintendo had a history of proving they were big enough to satiate everybody's thirst, there might not be such a big stink.

Though of course there will also be folks that just don't like the controller, plain and simple. You have those people every generation. I'm not thrilled about it but I'd give it a chance. If/when I see we're not losing more than we're gaining, it'll be non-issue. Consider me unimaginative if you want. And again, it's not the final design either.

You bring up an interesting point about Nintendo trying to do these things. It's hard to tell, since all we see is the final result and executives blowing sunshine up our rears. Surely Nintendo will try again, but after failing once they now have to prove it'll happen for real this time before I buy into the hype. When we start to see real game lists, real game pictures, videos, and demos, then I'll start to pay attention (IF the lineup really is for everybody). Until then I'm a skeptic, and I don't think unreasonable so. Nintendo can do whatever they want; they're Nintendo. The DS will rock before it's done. They're capable of making the Revolution rock too. I just gotta see it to believe it this time.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

You know, by now I thought this thread would have imploded like a neutron star.  Apparently the forum bug isn't kicking in.  Damn.

[wandering]

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after failing once they now have to prove it'll happen for real this time before I buy into the hype.

Fair enough.

It IS true, as you say, that Nintendo tried to get 'everybody'/non-gamers with the gamecube....but they did it in odd ways. The primary problem was that, in spite of Nintendo's focus, the GameCube didn't really offer anything substantial to attract non-gamers away form the PS2/XBOX. Sure, the controller was a little easier to use....but it really wasn't that much different from the competition's. Sure they tried to make the console look more mainstream-friendly....by making it look like a toy. But now, Nintendo seems to have learned from their mistakes and, this time, seems to be doing everything possible to make the average joe interested in their console. Which is good.

...but then, I'm primarally concerned with market share right now. You seem to be primarily concerned about Nintendo's first-party game output.....which doesn't really concern me as much. From my POV, Nintendo makes good games no matter what. (It's true that their Cube and DS era games haven't been as impressive as their games from the NES-N64 eras, but it's not like they're making bad games. Hopefully Miyamoto will take a more active role in REV development and will thus whip things into shape. As for whether their new non-gamer focus will  hurt their games, it's too soon to tell. But it's hard to compain about Nintendogs and LOZ:TP. Anyway.....)

So, I'm optimistic. The DS strategy - coming out with a shockingly different and inexpensive system - seemed to work. DS third party support is though the roof, and game variety really doesn't seem to be an issue now as a result. I think that there's a good chance that the REV will wind up following a similiar path to success.

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You know, by now I thought this thread would have imploded like a neutron star.

Yeah, people keep saying the same thing about Nintendo.
Therefore: if this thread implodes, Nintendo will go third party.  

[Ian Sane]

"Basically, I think Nintendo has the power, financially, to sell out and become Sony. I think Nintendo COULD have an identical business as Sony Computer Entertainment, but I don't think they should, because they would no longer be the Nintendo that I know and am currently enjoying. If they did this I do believe they would be successful (well, depends what you're comparing them to), but they'd lose what makes them Nintendo."

I don't want Nintendo to sell out either.  I don't think that's necessary to compete directly.  I think that Nintendo can still be Nintendo and still be different but while still following the same general path.  They don't have to be exactly the same as Sony (MS isn't the same as Sony) but they don't have to be totally different either.  Nintendo has had problems because of their insistence on being different, even when there's no good reason to be.  "We can't distribute demos in a convenient fashion because that's how Sony does it."  "We can't have lower licencing fees because that's how Sony does it."

Personally I don't like this non-gamer strategy largely because to me it's Nintendo selling out.  They're putting the fans and the gamers that made them who they are on the backburner in favour of this new group of non-gamers.  I feel they're largely assuming that just because we're fans that they can treat us like an afterthought and do something totally different that isn't even designed to please us.  With the Cube I feel that Nintendo often fell into the trap where they thought that their franchises were the reason Nintendo fans liked them.  So we got all sorts of redundant Mario spinoff junk that the Nintendo of only as little as five years ago would never release and Star Fox in name only and Mario being whored out to EA.  Nintendo in my opinion still hasn't learned from that as they still promote their franchises as their bread and butter.  I didn't become a Nintendo fan because I'm a sequel whore.  I became a Nintendo fan because they were the best damn game maker in the world and they rarely made cookie-cutter junk.  Nearly everything was essential and every sequel greatly improved on it's predecessor.

Nintendo lost sight of that in the last few years and I feel it's gotten worse as this non-gamer focus has come up.  Now it's like Nintendo fans are Nintendo fans because they're Nintendo.  Like we're all blind fanboys who follow them everywhere.  Well I'm not interested in shallow non-gamer junk.  The Nintendo I became a fan of wouldn't shoehorn a franchise character into a glorified mini-game with no depth.  By targeting non-gamers Nintendo is altering their games to fit this new market.  They're changing their product significantly for a market that currently doesn't even care about them at the likely expense of the market that does.  That is selling out and that's a huge reason why I don't like this new focus.

[Hostile Creation]

Ian, you do a glorious job of ignoring the great games Nintendo makes now, as well as ignoring the fact that a great deal of crap games existed during your golden age of gaming, too.

[PaLaDiN]

We get it Ian, you feel betrayed by Nintendo because you're not running the company and deciding which decisions get made. You've made this point before.

I'll tell you something though:  you need to stop parading yourself as the public figure of Nintendo fans. It's getting annoying.

"I became a Nintendo fan because they were the best damn game maker in the world and they rarely made cookie-cutter junk. Nearly everything was essential and every sequel greatly improved on it's predecessor."

Funny, I became a Nintendo fan because they were the best damn game maker in the world. Even back in the NES days they made some cookie-cutter junk though. But you know what? I don't care, I'm not a perfectionist when it comes to other people's work... so long as they make the best games in the world to go along with them, I'm satisfied.

This "EVERYTHING Nintendo does has to be for ME" attitude of yours is something you really need to work on.

"Now it's like Nintendo fans are Nintendo fans because they're Nintendo. Like we're all blind fanboys who follow them everywhere. Well I'm not interested in shallow non-gamer junk. The Nintendo I became a fan of wouldn't shoehorn a franchise character into a glorified mini-game with no depth. By targeting non-gamers Nintendo is altering their games to fit this new market."

Yeah, it's not like Nintendo fans are Nintendo fans because Nintendo still makes Nintendo games... that would be logical and would go against your point. So tell me Ian, what "glorified mini-game with no depth" are you talking about here? Kirby Air Ride? Because that's the only one I can think of, and Nintendo more than made up for that one with the next Kirby game... on the non-gamer portable you hate so much, no less. Of course, you wouldn't know.

You're not interested in what you call shallow non-gamer junk, but other gamers are. Did you somehow miss all the glowing Nintendogs reviews? Are all the people buying the non-games just getting the wrong game by accident? And it's not like Nintendo is only making non-games now... but why take Nintendo's word for it? Have you taken a look at their upcoming DS releases? You know, the list where the traditional games outnumber the non-games? How exactly is Nintendo altering those games to fit the new market? Do you have any evidence or is it all just vague unspecified misgivings? Better yet, is all this whining based on how you imagine Revolution games (which we know nothing about) will control?

"They're changing their product significantly for a market that currently doesn't even care about them at the likely expense of the market that does. That is selling out and that's a huge reason why I don't like this new focus."

No, they're making new product for a market that shows potential at the likely expense of people like you having to watch other people also have fun. Those horrible sell-outs.

[ShyGuy]

That's what I liked about Donkey Kong: the epic storyline and it's untangible depth quality

[Hostile Creation]

For the record, I enjoyed Kirby Air Ride more than Mario Kart: Double Dash.

[ThePerm]

hmmm psycho...hitchcock is a god

[Ian Sane]

Donkey Kong at the time of release was an incredibly ambitious game.  It sounds like nothing now but it had four totally different screens in an era where games typically had only one.  Many of Nintendo's really old games don't compare much depth-wise to today but at the time they were very ambitious games.  Note how Nintendo didn't make many one-screen-at-a-time games after Super Mario Bros came out.  They were pushing forward and being more ambitious.

Now they're going away from depth and complexity to appeal to non-gamers.  The controller is the biggest example of this.  A common defense of the two button design is that anything more would scare way non-gamers.  Well then so would a whole bunch of Nintendo's most successful and acclaimed games.  That's why I'm afraid they're selling out.  Because suddenly some of the games they used to make are too complex.  They have to limit themselves now.  They have to ask themselves "is this too complex?"  That's not the classic Nintendo of old.  Since when does Nintendo dumb their games down to accomodate a more casual audience?  That sounds closer to Sony than anything I've suggested.

Sony primarily targets casual gamers.  Non-gamers are the most casual of casual gamers.  Nintendo therefore is potentially comprimising the hardcore for the casual for the sake of money.  I believe that's what selling out is.

[Pale]

Ian, you just have no concept of the word AND...

Putting 50 buttons on a controller will make any game seem complex.  Putting 2 (or 4 or 6 or 8 depending on your point of view) solves that but doesn't mean that the games will be simple.  Who says a complex game needs all of those buttons?  

[Ian Sane]

"Who says a complex game needs all of those buttons?"

The last 15 years of game development including games made by Nintendo themselves.  I'm not asking for 50 buttons.  I'm asking for like six, you know, like we've had since 1991.

If I wanted to make a game on the Rev with the exact same controls as Ocarina of Time I couldn't do it without a huge workaround that probably wouldn't work as well.  When Nintendo can't even accurately port some of their greatest games then their controller is probably a little restrictive.  There's a difference between being overly complex and being complex enough to allow for needed functionality.

[Pale]

Well there are 4 main buttons in nunchuck mode, plus the d-pad which can be used for certain buttons (non action, etc.).  So yeah, 4 buttons plus d-pad.  It is short 2 buttons, but doesn't the motion sensing make up for that as far as its ability to create deep games?

[Ian Sane]

"It is short 2 buttons, but doesn't the motion sensing make up for that as far as its ability to create deep games?"

Well that's what we've been discussing for the last ten pages.  I've say no.  I think motion sensing can add to what's there but it's not a suitable outright replacement.  You shouldn't have to use the motion sensing feature to make a deep game.

Plus the question is not just "can they make deep games?" but "will they make them and will they give them the same amount of attention as before now that they're targeting non-gamers?"  The DS is perfectly capable of deep games but Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go and Pokemon Dash still got made.  Nintendo's focus is what concerns me.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Well that's why the shell is being made, Ian, for those who think that they need the conventional format to make the game, but even in the shell it still retains the motion sensing capabilities

[King of Twitch]

Don't non-games for non-gamers take up very little time and resources? Really, what have they done lately? Paper Mario, Pikmin2 and DK Jungle Beat.... Mario Party...Strikers...and? Still no Zelda for 6 months. They take too long even on Gamecube, and it'll only get worse on Revolution. Maybe some shorter addictive games will fill in their gaps.

[KnowsNothing]

Paper Mario and Pikmin are hardly nongames, and Jungle Beat is more of a game than YOU'LL ever be.

Or something.  This post is useless really.

[Pale]

You're right Ian.. I'm sure someone has already said the same thing as me...  Sometimes I wonder why I feel the urge to post junk.

[Artimus]

The remote serves its purpose and the shell serves its purpose. Why is that so confusing?

[PaLaDiN]

"The DS is perfectly capable of deep games but Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go and Pokemon Dash still got made. Nintendo's focus is what concerns me."

And there are people who loved Yoshi Touch 'n Go. Are you saying it shouldn't have been made just because you didn't like it?

There's our disagreement in a nutshell: You think catering to anybody who isn't you means selling out. Keep up that attitude if you want, but don't act surprised when everybody bashes you.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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The DS is perfectly capable of deep games but Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go and Pokemon Dash still got made. Nintendo's focus is what concerns me.

Back in the early days of gaming most games were very similar to Y T&G in that they were open ended affairs just about getting more points...Some of us older gamers who were around at that time like to have those type of games made (plus I bet alot of younger gamers liked it to).

[ruby_onix]

Here's a quick photoshop of IceCold's suggestion.

This is superior on just about every level.

Unfortunately, Nintendo has been designing controllers for eons, and they always know what's right, and don't take unsoliscited ideas, so this will probably never happen. Now we can resume bitching about the controller until E3 2006, at which point Nintendo will probably give us another meager scrap of into to tide us over for months.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Too...many...buttons.

[Pale]

The problem with that photoshop is it renders the d-pad useless for one of the main thigns they showcased... 1 handed gameplay.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: Artimus
The remote serves its purpose and the shell serves its purpose. Why is that so confusing?

Because if the remote was tweeked, the shell might not be necessary.  I am perplexed by the shell and the nunchuku.  From Miyamoto's interview, I got the impression that the shell was always in the works.  If that were the case, why do we need the nunchuku?

As for nongames and game-games:  I am confident in Nintendo's ability to make games, but am worried that since the nunchuku was an addendum brought on by American devs, what that says for Nintendo's launch lineup.  Not to say game-games can't be played with just the remote, but I'd guess that will be a rarity the way Miyamoto was talking in a recent interview.  It sounds like SSBR will be played with the shell.