Topic: Controlling Shooters on Revolution. A Thesis

[Don'tHate742]

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I was thinking about this. I thought I was the only one who thought it was a good idea.

Pfff...ya right...if you've read anything that I wrote a long ass time ago you'd realize that I predicted the ability to "use your hand" as a gun, even before I knew what the NRC was about.

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Perhaps one attachment for the controller will be a "pass through" connection that links a second rod to it and allows you to use two rods on one controller slot. Perhaps with a different kind of rod to link to it, it wouldn't need the power, home, start or select buttons and could add a few different control elements like an analog stick and two triggers.

Wow that setup sounds incredibly familiar...hmmm....maybe cause I came up with it a long ass time ago.

[KnowsNothing]

Wow Don'tHate, I now have much more respect for you.  You are truly a great being- a prophet even.

[Stimutacs Addict]

yea his mockups  were nearly spot on (cept for all of the buttons, but who would predict that?)

[trip1eX]

That scheme is something to try, but I think ultimately too awkward for most folks.  It wouldn't be that much fun to shoot around corners.  It would take lots of practice and even if it a little bit of fun the awkwardness of the aiming  scheme wouldn't be worth it.

[Don'tHate742]

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Wow Don'tHate, I now have much more respect for you. You are truly a great being- a prophet even

Obviously sarcastic, but thanks anyways

[wandering]

I like your control setup, RABicle. Though I'm not sure, could the REV 'point' at things that are off-screen? I thought when it came to the pointing mechanic, it acted sort of like a light gun. Though I'm not sure.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I'm under the impression the remote is "blind" and doesn't "look" at the tv screen, unlike a lightgun.  It's the sensor bar (which may or may not provide the reference points for setting the screen boundaries) in conjunction with the Great Fairies of Magick inside the remote that I thought collected the necessary positioning data.

[MrMojoRising]

Wait...how is this all that much different than the way Nintendo had it set up in the Metroid Demo?  Instead of turning more naturally by simply moving the controller farther to the left or right you have to use the D-pad?

It sounds easier to use it like Nintendo has it planned...unless I'm missing something here...

[couchmonkey]

The controller doesn't have to point at the TV at all.  There is some kind of a sensors that goes on top of the TV (or nearby) and it determines how the controller is pointed.

[KDR_11k]

I'd assume it uses thepoint sensor only for when it has to know where you're pointing, for the rest it can use the gyros. So if you point it to your side it'll calculate it's position from the last known pointing and the rotation measured by the gyros.

[Kairon]

I'm just excited at the possibility that we could duck behind an obstacle and lift our controlling arm up and over the perceived space, as if we're shooting blindly over the obstacle without looking!

Same for mindlessly spraying bullets around a corner without looking!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Mad Catz is announcing their revolutionary Brick Wall gameplay peripheral this November for Rev.  It comes in your standard 6in-thick x 7ft-tall base model, or the alternative right-angle building corner, also 7ft tall.  Aim around the corners as much as you want!  NO LONGER WILL YOUR COUCHES AND COFFEE TABLES BE AT RISK!

Next March they'll introduce the 1-cubic-meter Crate peripheral and the French Soil Foxhole, to coincide with the releases of Half-Life 1/2 and Medal of Honor: Euro Trip, respectively.

[RABicle]

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Originally posted by: MrMojoRising
Wait...how is this all that much different than the way Nintendo had it set up in the Metroid Demo?  Instead of turning more naturally by simply moving the controller farther to the left or right you have to use the D-pad?

It sounds easier to use it like Nintendo has it planned...unless I'm missing something here...

Clearly you are.
Put it this way, there's nothing wrong with Nintendo's current approach. But it doesn't do nything that couldn't be done before. Frankly Nintendo have to jsutify this motion sensing controller by giving us ways to play our games and things to do in these games that we coudln't do before. In my scheme it would be possible to shoot on the left side of the screen while you're turning right. Under my scheme you could strafe in a straight line while aiming in any direction.

You can't do that in FPS currently, and Nintendo's initial metroid demo can't do that either.

If we can't do new things with a new controller than there is no point.

[Spak-Spang]

Rabicle:  I understand what you mean about new game experiences being important to enhance experiences.  However, I think you were too harsh when you said there is no point to just keeping it like the Metroid Demo.  

The Metroid Demo can still give more precise and accurate control than a Controller FPS can.  It is also a more friendly user system, that can attract more players to playing a first person game.  

Design and Control for a game doesn't have to always bring up new possibilities and ways to play to be a revolution.  Sometimes it just takes making that experience easier and more enjoyable than it was before hand.

[KDR_11k]

How 'bout options, guys? How about letting the player decide whether he'd like it intuitive or superior?

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: RABicle
Clearly you are.
Put it this way, there's nothing wrong with Nintendo's current approach. But it doesn't do nything that couldn't be done before. Frankly Nintendo have to jsutify this motion sensing controller by giving us ways to play our games and things to do in these games that we coudln't do before. In my scheme it would be possible to shoot on the left side of the screen while you're turning right. Under my scheme you could strafe in a straight line while aiming in any direction.

You can't do that in FPS currently, and Nintendo's initial metroid demo can't do that either.

If we can't do new things with a new controller than there is no point.

YOur approach might be an idea worth trying but not anything more than that.  It would be too difficult for most games.  

Think about it.  You'd be aiming awkwardly all the time.   TAke your remote in your right hand and move it up near your left shoulder and then try using your wrist to aim back at the TV.  Have some fun with that one.  IT doesn't work.  

Keep the remote in your right hand and hold it on to your right a bit.  Try aiming at your TV.  Awkward.  Not fun comes to mind.  

For the most part it's going to be setup like the Metroid Demo for fps games.  Like other guys have said it's in the ease of use and fluidity of movement is where this thing will shine.  It will be alot easier to look around 3-d worlds.  This will be the beauty of this controller for 3d games.  The zooming in and out function would be totally natural for 3-d games.  Try it in your living room and see how simple it would be to zoom in and out in 3-d environments!!  Yeah this movement could even be used to move your character forward/backward.  YOu could do all that with one hand.  

This doesn't mean this controller won't be used for new things.  Some of what you are talking about could be used in games.  But it will have to be more thought out.







 

[Spak-Spang]

KDR:  I don't know.  I really don't think FPSers, specially competitive ones allowing players to have different control schemes that give distinct advantages.

People that play with the simpler "Metroid Demo" interface could never compete with a player of any skill with this new shoot anywhere interface.  

And the shoot anywhere interface, will be awesome, but will also be hard to learn and potentially difficult to master.  Meaning there will be a huge learning curve that will hurt the online competitive gaming for new players.

Really, it just depends on what the developer wants to create.  For a Metroid game, the "Metroid Demo" control scheme is perfect...but for say Unreal Tournament or Timesplitters this new control scheme works well.  Geist could fit in with the Metroid demo theme.

Giving the option means it will hurt competitiveness.

[zakkiel]

News on how Metroid controls:

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Journalist Chris Kohler, who wrote a Revolution hands-on article for Wired News, started a thread on the Gaming-Age forums in which he answers specific questions about his time with the recently-unveiled Nintendo Revolution controller. There's been a lot of speculation and misinformation spread around about the device already, and many of his answers give good closure to some of those rumors. Below are some of the more noteworthy quotes:

Regarding general handling and control: "I can't really compare the controller to existing tech. I can say that the learning curve was practically nonexistent. It's light. It's comfortable. It's goddamned precise." and "I can definitely say that you can point the thing at an angle at the TV, because that's the whole point of the device: you're not moving your whole arm around, you're just making very slight inflections with your wrist." and "When you play with a Wavebird, do you stand up and hold it at arm's length towards the screen? No. And you don't have to do this with the Revolution controller. You can sit with your hands in your lap and just move your wrist a little to cover the entire screen."

Regarding the Revolution-enabled Metroid Prime 2 demo: "As far as Metroid Prime 2, the honest answer is that it was so intuitive that I wasn't even thinking about HOW the controller was doing it. All I know is that I was easily able to spin in circles. IIRC: if you move it further and further towards the left or right of the screen, Samus will start to spin around, and if you bring it back to the center she stops." and "I don't know what sort of impressions other than "Metroid Prime 2 was comfortable and intuitive" I really need to give at this point. The analog attachment was really light. The wire was long enough. Moving, aiming, shooting, and turning took no -- zero -- conscious thought. The only problem I had was remembering which shoulder button scanned and which jumped. But I can't remember that very well on the GameCube either." and "And with the Metroid Prime demo, I was waving the controller all the hell over the place really really fast and the cursor was always exactly where I wanted it."

Regarding other Revolution demos: "The fishing game was the only one that took me more than a second to grasp, because it uses depth perception. But after I got the hang of moving the rod around in a pseudo-3D space, it got easier." and "I really loved the airplane demo. It was as if you were holding a toy plane in your hand, and everything you did with it in real life was reflected on the (very nice*) tv screen."

Not informative, but it made me laugh: "When I first saw it, they hadn't yet explained what it DID. So I was like 'what the jesus is that.' Then Miyamoto was like, check this out, and he starts waving it around and shooting boxes and my stomach felt like it had done a flip-flop."

Regarding the nature of the further surprises promised by Nintendo president Satoru Iwata: "I think it's safe to say that after this I don't put anything past that guy."

So it loks like it uses a sort of mega-analog stick set-up. Unlike an analog stick, you can push it as far as you want and get uber-fast turns, while still having precise control. Not nearly as revolutionary as anything discussed here, but maybe simpler is better.

[KDR_11k]

Spak-Spang: Well, PC FPSes allow you to use only the keyboard or work a joystick or gamepad into your control scheme. Sure you have no chance in a competitive environment but hey, if you can't master the control scheme, how do you expect to master the game?

Triplex: Why would you want to hold it in that position? You could hold it anywhere you like as long as it points where you want the shots to go. And if you want them to go somewhere behind you, that's fine.

Zakkiel: That sounds like relative controls *shudder*. I hope it works better than it sounds.

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k

Triplex: Why would you want to hold it in that position? You could hold it anywhere you like as long as it points where you want the shots to go. And if you want them to go somewhere behind you, that's fine.

Well the pt was your going to get your arm/wrist into some funky positions.  I'm merely trying to illustrate that moving the remote and tilting  it in certain directions is just not going to work in certain positions.  

Also I don't think you've worked out how you look around in the 3d world yet if you have this kind of setup.  Maybe I missed that part.  



Anyway I much rather just have the simple and intuitive ability to look around freely in a 3d world.

But hey I could see this happening if say it's used in conjunction with a shift key.  HOld down the big 'A' button and suddenly moving the remote in 3d space moves your arm(gun) in the 3d game world.  And not your view pt.  YOur viewing angle is temporarily frozen.



 

[Kairon]

Oh snap! Imagine running in a direction and flipping the controller over your shoulder, pointing behind you, to fire off some blind shots at people pursueing you!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[zakkiel]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Spak-Spang: Well, PC FPSes allow you to use only the keyboard or work a joystick or gamepad into your control scheme. Sure you have no chance in a competitive environment but hey, if you can't master the control scheme, how do you expect to master the game?

Triplex: Why would you want to hold it in that position? You could hold it anywhere you like as long as it points where you want the shots to go. And if you want them to go somewhere behind you, that's fine.

Zakkiel: That sounds like relative controls *shudder*. I hope it works better than it sounds.

Meaning? Anyway, reactions to the MP2 demo have ranged from "huge improvement over analogue stick" to "better than a mouse," so I think it's probably ok. I certainly can't see how it would be worse than a stick.

[KDR_11k]

relative means that it's like an analog stick, holding it in one position keeps the velocity constant. With absolute controls holding it in one position will keep the position constant.

Triplex: Context sensitive controls are annoying. RABicle already said it'd use a dual dpad (or one dpad and one analog if you use only one rod) setup for rough movement and the gyros for shooting things.

[zakkiel]

Ah. Then yes, it is relative. Note, however, that the NRC allows much greater precision over a much greater range of motion.

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
relative means that it's like an analog stick, holding it in one position keeps the velocity constant. With absolute controls holding it in one position will keep the position constant.

Triplex: Context sensitive controls are annoying. RABicle already said it'd use a dual dpad (or one dpad and one analog if you use only one rod) setup for rough movement and the gyros for shooting things.

It's not context sensitive.  IT's a shift key.  

Anyway you need the gryos and the remote for looking around.  The whole moving arm and moving gun separately controls needs to be mapped to a shift key so you can use the remote to look around.  

You just haven't thought this out enough imo.