Author Topic: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis  (Read 76571 times)

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Offline anubis6789

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2005, 11:41:21 PM »
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Originally posted by: Mario
Also

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Oh, considering this is a Nintendo forum one would expect to see more people like me"

Yes, that would be fun.  An entire forum of people who agree with 100% of everything Nintendo does.  THAT would make for some interesting conversations.

No, that entire frame of thinking wouldn't exist, we'd be talking about games not Nintendo's financial and marketing decisions.


Well in  lieu of any game information what else would we talk about on the REV board?

Also in order to play Nintendo games you have to have a Nintendo system which is what we are talking about. Just because some of us go off into financials and marketing doesn't mean we can't also talk about games. It just so happens that a few of us like to talk about such things, to us that is part of being a gamer. Just because you don't think about them doesn't mean they don't exist. To each his own.

I too hope they still keep VGA monitor support as an option, that is something I am really looking forward to.
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2005, 12:34:34 AM »
Sorry, didn't notice this till now:

"And you're contradicting yourself. If Nintendo's revolutionary aspect strikes a chord with them, and they buy it, they're still making a conscious decision to. Non-gamer's brains aren't set to random; they're not stupid. When they buy a console, no matter what, they're going to do SOME level of research and go by what they think they know, whether it be what they read in some biased gaming magazine, what their friends told them, or what the dude at EBGames told them when they walked into the store to purchase a console."

Huh wha? The whole point is that the revolutionary aspect is what got them interested. Wouldn't be much of a revolutionary aspect if the other consoles had it, now would it? So since that's what got them interested, they'll get a Rev. HD doesn't enter into the equation for non-gamers.

Let's look at the DS for example. Suppose a Japanese girl sees her friend touching a dog on a screen and thinks "so cute! must have it!". You're telling me she'll subsequently do some research, go to the store and buy a PSP because it's got a better screen. I'm telling you she wants to touch her own Nintendog so she'll buy a DS. The PSP is still an unfamiliar alien object to her that doesn't let her pet a Nintendog, so she won't buy that.

Because the revolutionary aspect is what struck a chord with them, that's the criterion they're going to use to select what they want the next time they go shopping.

I mean, that's what makes sense to me.
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Offline Mario

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2005, 02:10:21 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: anubis6789
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
Also

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Oh, considering this is a Nintendo forum one would expect to see more people like me"

Yes, that would be fun.  An entire forum of people who agree with 100% of everything Nintendo does.  THAT would make for some interesting conversations.

No, that entire frame of thinking wouldn't exist, we'd be talking about games not Nintendo's financial and marketing decisions.


Well in  lieu of any game information what else would we talk about on the REV board?

Also in order to play Nintendo games you have to have a Nintendo system which is what we are talking about. Just because some of us go off into financials and marketing doesn't mean we can't also talk about games. It just so happens that a few of us like to talk about such things, to us that is part of being a gamer. Just because you don't think about them doesn't mean they don't exist. To each his own.

I too hope they still keep VGA monitor support as an option, that is something I am really looking forward to.

I know, I didn't say whether I agreed or disagreed with that, I myself get pleasure out of reading sales figures and predicting market trends. I'm all for trying to make Nintendo "perfect" by expecting the best from them, but really, half the posts in this thread border on stupidity. It's like all this rage that Nintendo's console has been perfect so far has built up, when people heard this they were like "YES!!! er.. i mean, OH NO Nintendo is doomed! *Reply*"

Offline Nephilim

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2005, 03:07:04 AM »
Hi-def doesnt make a game
you can play Terminator 3:rise of the machines on 1152x864 with a 500dollar graphics and it will still look as crappy as a PS1 game

Its how the devoloper uses it, Nintendo dont need Hi-def games at the moment, most of there games are simple looking, look polished and very pretty.
But they dont relize that other companys do want there games like that. much like the cd size vs cart deal.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2005, 04:15:42 AM »
Since the PGC newspeak was apparently introduced to stifle debate I propose we map "HDTV" to "LOLZ Graphics Whore!!" and bring this forum a step closer to unusability.

As for the RAM requirement, a 1920x1080x24Bit framebuffer takes roughly 6 Megabytes, times three (triple buffering) that's 24MBs. Admittedly I have no idea how large a framebuffer would be when you're using HDRI but you could simply disable that at resolutions that dont leave enough space. With 256MB of RAM that should be neglectible, if Nintendo feels a need to put even less in there it's their problem that their third party support will suck because the great games don't fit into the Rev's memory. Though perhaps they're removing HD so the devs can downsample the textures to make them fit into the Rev's RAM without anyone noticing. A slower processor is less of a problem than too little RAM, which is already a problem with consoles.

Offline Nile Boogie

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2005, 05:06:51 AM »
There is no such thing as HDVR or 3DHD yet, so that is why the is no HD support fot the Revolution.  
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Offline ABlueflameA

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2005, 05:26:00 AM »
Personally, I don't have a HD-TV but even if I did, it wouldn't stop me from buying Revolution, for one simple reason.

-Games


Nintendo is built upon releasing the highest quality games found on any system.  I'm going to buy Revolution and Smash Brothers Online BECAUSE its Smash Brothers Online and not because it has a few more lines of resolution in it.  I'm going to buy Mario, Zelda, Metroid and maybe even Donkey Kong because of their history of being great games.

Nintendo is all about games, and as long as they stick with that, they'll still have legions of fans, including myself.

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Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2005, 06:03:16 AM »
I'm still at a loss as to why any Nintendo fan would care whether Nintendo is in #1 or #3. I thought we all bought Nintendo for their gamer, not for the bragging rights of having the top-market console in our home.

In fact, the more you get to know Nintendo, the more it seems suitable that they're not ast the forefront of the marketshare heap. The videogame industry has changed, and that change is only indicative of Nintendo's success. We should be proud that Nintendo raised the industry to surpass what they can give it, not outraged that Nintendo can't be everything to everyone.

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Offline Deguello

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2005, 06:30:37 AM »
FYI, KDR, we do not auto-censor words to "stifle debate."  Most of the time it's to bury dead horses like taking Zelda and putting a C in it for internet hilarity, or saying a variant of the word childish. This horse isn't dead yet.  But the way this thread is going, it is on life support.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2005, 07:57:08 AM »
"I'm still at a loss as to why any Nintendo fan would care whether Nintendo is in #1 or #3. I thought we all bought Nintendo for their gamer, not for the bragging rights of having the top-market console in our home."

I'm still at a loss as to why people don't understand the simple concept that #1 = amazing third party support, #3 = sh!tty third party support.  There are more advantages to being #1 than bragging rights.

Someone brought up that Nintendo already confirmed HD: "It will play GameCube games as well as a new class of high-definition games"

I think "new class" leaves things open to debate.  Perhaps in that quote she's refering to the rumoured 3D headset or whatever.  Nintendo is infamous for using weird vague terms to describe things so in this context "high-definition" possibly doesn't mean what everyone but Nintendo thinks it does.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2005, 08:23:06 AM »
Nintendo should allow HD support as long as it doesn't cost like $80 extra, which I'm sure it won't.

My favourite part of the IGN article is when Dyack says that he'll play Zelda on Revolution whether it's HD or not.  That sums up my feelings perfectly.  I don't give a flying crap about High Definition games.  In the long run I think this decision will cost Nintendo, but it will not change my decision at all, the games will do that.  If Nintendo can deliver the innovative experience it's hoping it can, this may be totally unimportant.  High-definition will definitely impress some gamers, but so far the next generation of game systems has done nothing to impress me.  I want different gaming experiences.

Something that I think is interesting is the argument over Nintendo's revolutionary games and the non-gamer crowd.  I fully agree that non-gamers will be buying Revolution for the thing that makes it different from the other systems and not for the high-def feature.  However, if Nintendo's new feature is easy to copy, then what happens when non-gamers can get the same feature on a high-definition system?  Tough question!

I'm still skeptical about the non-gamer strategy in general: video gaming is a rather expensive hobby, I'm not sure it can attract a new fanbase that will keep buying at current game prices.  I guess we'll see.
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Offline Shecky

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2005, 09:24:12 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Since the PGC newspeak was apparently introduced to stifle debate I propose we map "HDTV" to "LOLZ Graphics Whore!!" and bring this forum a step closer to unusability.


I sense a bit of sarcasm, but clearly the term HDTV is not to be blamed for this thread

Quote

As for the RAM requirement, a 1920x1080x24Bit framebuffer takes roughly 6 Megabytes, times three (triple buffering) that's 24MBs. Admittedly I have no idea how large a framebuffer would be when you're using HDRI but you could simply disable that at resolutions that dont leave enough space. With 256MB of RAM that should be neglectible, if Nintendo feels a need to put even less in there it's their problem that their third party support will suck because the great games don't fit into the Rev's memory. Though perhaps they're removing HD so the devs can downsample the textures to make them fit into the Rev's RAM without anyone noticing. A slower processor is less of a problem than too little RAM, which is already a problem with consoles.


Well the GC has a 2MB T1-Ram frame buffer, aside from the main ram.  I was guessing that the revolution may thus follow along the same lines, and was trying an alternate view of this issue for constructive purposes.  It seems that people are just too worked up about this whole issue, on a system who's specs are not even finalized.


Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2005, 09:31:39 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I'm still at a loss as to why any Nintendo fan would care whether Nintendo is in #1 or #3. I thought we all bought Nintendo for their gamer, not for the bragging rights of having the top-market console in our home."

I'm still at a loss as to why people don't understand the simple concept that #1 = amazing third party support, #3 = sh!tty third party support.  There are more advantages to being #1 than bragging rights.

Someone brought up that Nintendo already confirmed HD: "It will play GameCube games as well as a new class of high-definition games"

I think "new class" leaves things open to debate.  Perhaps in that quote she's refering to the rumoured 3D headset or whatever.  Nintendo is infamous for using weird vague terms to describe things so in this context "high-definition" possibly doesn't mean what everyone but Nintendo thinks it does.


I don't buy Nintendo systems to play third party games, and I never will. Nintendo isn't in the hardware business for any other reason than to support their software efforts. They had to enter hardware to introduce the + pad to replace the joystick. They were the ones who made force-feedback and analog control a reality. And whatever they've got cooking up now for Revolution, Nintendo's ultimate goal is not to sell more systems, but to make newer, more interesting and better games.

As a Nintendo fan who understands that Nintendo making hardware is only truly important as it relates to Nintendo making software, I don't care much over whether Nintendo's hardware has a #1 market position or not. All I want is for Nintendo to keep making the best games they possibly can, enabled by both their hardware and software vision. This position is NOT threatened by the discussion over whether third-parties develop on a Nintendo console or not, and that is why I consider myself a Nintendo Fan.

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Offline Mario

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2005, 09:47:23 AM »
Quote

I'm still at a loss as to why people don't understand the simple concept that #1 = amazing third party support, #3 = sh!tty third party support. There are more advantages to being #1 than bragging rights.

I agree with you on this concept, if GTA was released on Revolution I wouldn't need to buy a PS3, but the fact is this HD crap won't mean ANYTHING in determining which console is #1 or #3.

Offline Pittbboi

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2005, 10:04:28 AM »
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I don't buy Nintendo systems to play third party games, and I never will. Nintendo isn't in the hardware business for any other reason than to support their software efforts. They had to enter hardware to introduce the + pad to replace the joystick. They were the ones who made force-feedback and analog control a reality. And whatever they've got cooking up now for Revolution, Nintendo's ultimate goal is not to sell more systems, but to make newer, more interesting and better games.

As a Nintendo fan who understands that Nintendo making hardware is only truly important as it relates to Nintendo making software, I don't care much over whether Nintendo's hardware has a #1 market position or not. All I want is for Nintendo to keep making the best games they possibly can, enabled by both their hardware and software vision. This position is NOT threatened by the discussion over whether third-parties develop on a Nintendo console or not, and that is why I consider myself a Nintendo Fan.


...Only that vision isn't what Nintendo sees for itself. Never have you seen Iwata say that he's comfortable with Nintendo being in last place, or that it only makes its hardware for its games. Remember, the main push by Nintendo back in the pre-Gamecube release period was to get itself back on speaking terms with third party developers. It failed at this, but that goal hasn't changed with the Revolution. Why do you think they're emphasizing how high production costs are becoming and making such an effort to bring them down? Nintendo wants other companies to develop for their hardware, and it wants to gain more marketshare to make its hardware that much more appealing.  It's foolish to think that a Nintendo console could survive on it's own games. It simply can't. Nintendo knows this; a lot of people still apparently don't.

What a lot of us "naysayers" are doing here isn't just needlessly poking at Nintendo, it's realizing that some of the decisions made by Nintendo may hinder its own goals. I don't think anyone is doubting that games with still play well and look stunning on the Revolution with or without HD support. However, there's no denying that lack of this support will cost it potential sales--and Nintendo is in no position to risk potential sales, because sales determine how much 3rd party support you get, and THAT'S what floats a console.  

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2005, 10:21:29 AM »
"I don't buy Nintendo systems to play third party games, and I never will."

You're defining yourself a Nintendo fan because you only like Nintendo.  A Nintendo fan is merely someone who really likes Nintendo's games.  One can be a Nintendo fan and also a fan of gaming in general.  I'm a Nintendo fan because I think they make the best games.  I don't think they make the only games I want to play.  But then I became a Nintendo fan on the SNES and thus know what I used to have and what I miss.

Plus sales also relate to Nintendo's future.  If they keep losing market share eventually they'll reach a point where the userbase is so small they can't make a profit anymore and go broke and that means no more Nintendo games for the "I only like Nintendo" fan.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2005, 10:34:11 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pittbboi


...Only that vision isn't what Nintendo sees for itself. Never have you seen Iwata say that he's comfortable with Nintendo being in last place, or that it only makes its hardware for its games. Remember, the main push by Nintendo back in the pre-Gamecube release period was to get itself back on speaking terms with third party developers. It failed at this, but that goal hasn't changed with the Revolution. Why do you think they're emphasizing how high production costs are becoming and making such an effort to bring them down? Nintendo wants other companies to develop for their hardware, and it wants to gain more marketshare to make its hardware that much more appealing.  It's foolish to think that a Nintendo console could survive on it's own games. It simply can't. Nintendo knows this; a lot of people still apparently don't.

What a lot of us "naysayers" are doing here isn't just needlessly poking at Nintendo, it's realizing that some of the decisions made by Nintendo may hinder its own goals. I don't think anyone is doubting that games with still play well and look stunning on the Revolution with or without HD support. However, there's no denying that lack of this support will cost it potential sales--and Nintendo is in no position to risk potential sales, because sales determine how much 3rd party support you get, and THAT'S what floats a console.


There are two sides to Nintendo, two different avenues on which they must act. One side is the avenue that Iwata now heads, and that is keeping Nintendo in business. After all, Nintendo couldn't very well make great games if Nintendo didn't exist.

But that side of Nintendo only exists to ensure the viability of Nintendo's true driving force: Miyamoto and Nintendo's legacy as a software maker, their ability to freely innovate, and their ability to take games where they want games to go. This is what interests me most as a Nintendo fan. The business aspect of Nintendo's profitability is subordinate to Miyamoto's creativity.

Now obviously, this brings us to a question of "do the ends justify the means?" If Nintendo becomes financially dominant, but does so by sacrificing the only thing that truly is Nintendo, Miyamoto's legacy, then I, as a Nintendo fan would count it as an unsconciounable loss. Yet if That legacy survives, then I'm not too caught up in whether Nintendo is in 1st or 3rd place, as long as the games keep coming.

And even assuming that everyone here is working under the question, "Does HD support make-or-break Nintendo's future ability to create the games it wants to make?", I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone makes it out to be.

First of all, by striving for low production costs, Nintendo can minimize financial risk on hardware losses. GC didn't have as much support as the XBox or PS2, but Nintendo made money on it's own games, some licensing fees, AND the hardware itself: nowhere did Nintendo realize a loss except when the unique and specialized arenas of currency exchange (a weak dollar/strong yen) and hefty Research and Development coincided. And in addition to this, Nintendo can pursue the lowest price with more safety than Sony or Microsoft, and with a lower price point Nintendo consoles can become much more comfortable impulse buys for casual gamers rather than the 5-year contract you'll get when you buy the latest and greatest PSXBox.

Secondly, exactly what third party game has sold Gamecube, or the N64? Resident Evil's impact on the GC has been vastly over-rated by viewers (indeed, most were remakes, and RE4 has only moved 500,000 copies, a small amount compared to blockbusters). And the N64's only truly premier third party title was GoldenEye. Nintendo was responsible for every other signature game that kept the N64 afloat. And again, looking at DS with it's lack of marquee third party titles, again Nintendo has managed to sell the system with barely more than Nintendo Licenses and token third party ports.

And of course, while HD may be a selling point for the first-adopters, the techno-lusters, and the internet-savvy, 1080p is hardly commonplace now, nor would excluding 1080p make developers unable to make games that they could before (thus satisfying a key IanSane flashpoint: traditional genres (Street-Fighter-esque fighting games, for example) must not be excluded).

Finally, while the developers may definitely take advantage of 1080p support on other systems, it's exclusion makes Revolution development and ports easier, not harder. After all, this is eye candy.

Now it's no question that a COMPLETE lack of third party support will pretty much relegate a Nintendo console to the dustbin of history, yet that is highly unlikely, as long as EA sits pretty in their "top dog" position and desires as many console makers to fight it out while they rake in the big bucks.

But when reviewing the topic at hand, I'm amazed at the weight people give to issues like this. Iwata's job is to keep Miyamoto in business. Miyamoto's job is to keep making the best games he can possibly make. And I doubt that not supporting bleeding edge 1080p will endanger either aspect to the point that Miyamoto will no longer be able to make the next Mario.

High Definition or not, if the next Nintendo game rocks, I'll be there to buy it. And experience seems to show that although there are no more than 20 million people like me, that there are enough to keep Nintendo in the business of making games... which of course, is the only reason we're all here anyways.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2005, 11:15:29 AM »
Kairon!  Yamauchi would chop your head off and eat your brains for breakfast.  Videogames were one of a dozen things Nintendo tried over the years (animation being the latest), and I'm sure Yamauchi and many other people who invested their entire lives in "Nintendo the company" would not agree with the notion of "Nintendo the bleeding-heart game artists".

I love Nintendo's games and consider them works of art, and I fully agree that Nintendo gives way more priority to the art of game design than most other game companies out there.  But to say that Iwata's job is to keep Miyamoto in business...I consider it more of a mutual relationship.  Neither one would be as well-off without the other.

As for the weight people have given to the issue, I agree that it's not all that important in the grand scheme of things, but I do believe it will cost Nintendo sales unless the company is able to cut the cost of the system by a very large amount this way.  I hope Nintendo will prove me wrong in that respect.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2005, 01:50:52 PM »
LOL. I don't think Yamauchi would decapitate me and devour my neural matter. After all, despite Yamauchi's wide-ranging business endeavors (everything from instant rice to taxis to love motels), he seemed to have complete confidence in Miyamoto's ability to deliver great games to push the NES console in the 80's. In fact, his tyrannical rule over third parties in the 8-bit age, limiting their # of games released in a year, trying to force them into quality over quantity (as Yamauchi probably saw quantity as the doom of videogames, as per the Atari 2600's E.T.), still exists today in Nintendo's "Quality over Quantity" and "We'll release it when it's done" mantras.

For such a controversial figure as Yamauchi, there is at least one good thing to his credit: he allowed a newly discovered Miyamoto some of the most brilliant games ever.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Pittbboi

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2005, 02:10:03 PM »
“Now obviously, this brings us to a question of "do the ends justify the means?" If Nintendo becomes financially dominant, but does so by sacrificing the only thing that truly is Nintendo, Miyamoto's legacy, then I, as a Nintendo fan would count it as an unsconciounable loss. Yet if That legacy survives, then I'm not too caught up in whether Nintendo is in 1st or 3rd place, as long as the games keep coming.”

But that’s the thing: Miyamoto’s legacy won’t survive if Nintendo keeps losing marketshare, which has been happening since the NES. Its best attempts to keep that from happening with the Gamecube failed. Obviously, the business/financial aspect of Nintendo matters, and they need to pay more attention to it, because at this point in time we’re knee deep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid games, but that hasn’t stopped Nintendo from losing marketshare. And its already been established that Nintendo can only keep losing marketshare for so long before it starts to suffer.


“And even assuming that everyone here is working under the question, "Does HD support make-or-break Nintendo's future ability to create the games it wants to make?", I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone makes it out to be.

First of all, by striving for low production costs, Nintendo can minimize financial risk on hardware losses. GC didn't have as much support as the XBox or PS2, but Nintendo made money on it's own games, some licensing fees, AND the hardware itself: nowhere did Nintendo realize a loss except when the unique and specialized arenas of currency exchange (a weak dollar/strong yen) and hefty Research and Development coincided. And in addition to this, Nintendo can pursue the lowest price with more safety than Sony or Microsoft, and with a lower price point Nintendo consoles can become much more comfortable impulse buys for casual gamers rather than the 5-year contract you'll get when you buy the latest and greatest PSXBox.”

I don’t think anyone here is making the situation out to be dire. This isn’t the stupid decision that’s going to doom Nintendo, and I don’t think anyone here made it out to be that serious. It is, however, a stupid decision, and big or small, Nintendo can’t afford to make stupid decisions this time around. It’s not Sony, who’s the market leader, and thus can afford to make small stupid decisions.

Also, besides the fact that it’s been established that not supporting HD is alleviating only a very small percentage of the production cost, it wouldn’t hurt Nintendo to take a risk and handle a small financial loss. A lot of the things Nintendo does to keep its profit margins up are a lot of things that keep third parties from developing for it (cartridges, mini discs, licensing fees, and now possibly lack of HD support). Hell, look at the Xbox. It didn’t make any money for Microsoft, only leeched it from them. However, that console went from being the underdog in this generation, to coming in second and giving Microsoft a foothold in the market and the chance to compete head-to-head with Sony this upcoming generation. Nintendo’s going to have to play catch up with Microsoft now before it can even get to Sony.  

Of course, no one is asking Nintendo to try and weather a HUGE financial loss--it doesn’t have to reserves from other markets that Microsoft and Sony have. However, Nintendo is a much larger company than even its fans give it credit for, a multi-billion dollar one, to be exact. It may not be as huge as MS and Sony, but it can afford to take a small loss for the greater gain, and it’s about time it did.



“Secondly, exactly what third party game has sold Gamecube, or the N64? Resident Evil's impact on the GC has been vastly over-rated by viewers (indeed, most were remakes, and RE4 has only moved 500,000 copies, a small amount compared to blockbusters). And the N64's only truly premier third party title was GoldenEye. Nintendo was responsible for every other signature game that kept the N64 afloat. And again, looking at DS with it's lack of marquee third party titles, again Nintendo has managed to sell the system with barely more than Nintendo Licenses and token third party ports.”

You’re underestimating the value of the third party. Yes, it may be harder to come by a third part big hit game on a Nintendo console, but that shouldn’t undermine their affect. “Collectively” third parties are what keep Nintendo (as well as other consoles) afloat. I highly doubt the DS would sell well if it were only to play Nintendo games. Yes, Nintendo games got people interested in it, but don’t doubt that it wasn’t the promise of better and more varied third party games that got a lot of people to buy it (I know that’s why I did).

What you’re wanting Nintendo to do is give third parties the bare minimum they need to send their crap titles to Nintendo consoles, so that Nintendo alone stays afloat. Not only is that extremely bad practice for maintaining good relationships with third parties, and forcing Nintendo fans to go out and buy other consoles to play quality games that aren’t by Miyamoto (those do exist), it’s a practice that won’t work forever. Frankly, as big of a fan as I am, I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if it were harder for Nintendo to round up quality third party titles and exclusives this time around.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2005, 02:23:46 PM »
"exactly what third party game has sold Gamecube, or the N64?"

None but that's kind of the point.  Those consoles had poor third party support so obvious no third party game sold consoles.  Hell NOTHING sold Cubes, whether first or third party.  The NES and SNES however had several huge third party sellers.  Street Fighter II for the SNES for example was a huge one.  The Cube in particular is the very example of why third party support is so crucial.  The Cube's poor performance was largely caused by a post-launch game drought which occured because there weren't any decent third party games to fill the gap between first party titles.

Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2005, 02:54:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"exactly what third party game has sold Gamecube, or the N64?"

None but that's kind of the point.  Those consoles had poor third party support so obvious no third party game sold consoles.  Hell NOTHING sold Cubes, whether first or third party.  The NES and SNES however had several huge third party sellers.  Street Fighter II for the SNES for example was a huge one.  The Cube in particular is the very example of why third party support is so crucial.  The Cube's poor performance was largely caused by a post-launch game drought which occured because there weren't any decent third party games to fill the gap between first party titles.


Yet even with so little 3rd Party support, Nintendo survived the N64 and it was actually profitable with the Cube. I feel that, yes, Nintendo needs to be aware of the changing market place in order to stay profitable, but it's obvious that Nintendo isn't in dire danger of disappearing due to financial insolvency.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Offline Kairon

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #147 on: June 13, 2005, 03:06:35 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pittbboi
“Now obviously, this brings us to a question of "do the ends justify the means?" If Nintendo becomes financially dominant, but does so by sacrificing the only thing that truly is Nintendo, Miyamoto's legacy, then I, as a Nintendo fan would count it as an unsconciounable loss. Yet if That legacy survives, then I'm not too caught up in whether Nintendo is in 1st or 3rd place, as long as the games keep coming.”

But that’s the thing: Miyamoto’s legacy won’t survive if Nintendo keeps losing marketshare, which has been happening since the NES. Its best attempts to keep that from happening with the Gamecube failed. Obviously, the business/financial aspect of Nintendo matters, and they need to pay more attention to it, because at this point in time we’re knee deep Mario, Zelda, and Metroid games, but that hasn’t stopped Nintendo from losing marketshare. And its already been established that Nintendo can only keep losing marketshare for so long before it starts to suffer.


“And even assuming that everyone here is working under the question, "Does HD support make-or-break Nintendo's future ability to create the games it wants to make?", I don't think the situation is as dire as everyone makes it out to be.

First of all, by striving for low production costs, Nintendo can minimize financial risk on hardware losses. GC didn't have as much support as the XBox or PS2, but Nintendo made money on it's own games, some licensing fees, AND the hardware itself: nowhere did Nintendo realize a loss except when the unique and specialized arenas of currency exchange (a weak dollar/strong yen) and hefty Research and Development coincided. And in addition to this, Nintendo can pursue the lowest price with more safety than Sony or Microsoft, and with a lower price point Nintendo consoles can become much more comfortable impulse buys for casual gamers rather than the 5-year contract you'll get when you buy the latest and greatest PSXBox.”

I don’t think anyone here is making the situation out to be dire. This isn’t the stupid decision that’s going to doom Nintendo, and I don’t think anyone here made it out to be that serious. It is, however, a stupid decision, and big or small, Nintendo can’t afford to make stupid decisions this time around. It’s not Sony, who’s the market leader, and thus can afford to make small stupid decisions.

Also, besides the fact that it’s been established that not supporting HD is alleviating only a very small percentage of the production cost, it wouldn’t hurt Nintendo to take a risk and handle a small financial loss. A lot of the things Nintendo does to keep its profit margins up are a lot of things that keep third parties from developing for it (cartridges, mini discs, licensing fees, and now possibly lack of HD support). Hell, look at the Xbox. It didn’t make any money for Microsoft, only leeched it from them. However, that console went from being the underdog in this generation, to coming in second and giving Microsoft a foothold in the market and the chance to compete head-to-head with Sony this upcoming generation. Nintendo’s going to have to play catch up with Microsoft now before it can even get to Sony.  

Of course, no one is asking Nintendo to try and weather a HUGE financial loss--it doesn’t have to reserves from other markets that Microsoft and Sony have. However, Nintendo is a much larger company than even its fans give it credit for, a multi-billion dollar one, to be exact. It may not be as huge as MS and Sony, but it can afford to take a small loss for the greater gain, and it’s about time it did.



“Secondly, exactly what third party game has sold Gamecube, or the N64? Resident Evil's impact on the GC has been vastly over-rated by viewers (indeed, most were remakes, and RE4 has only moved 500,000 copies, a small amount compared to blockbusters). And the N64's only truly premier third party title was GoldenEye. Nintendo was responsible for every other signature game that kept the N64 afloat. And again, looking at DS with it's lack of marquee third party titles, again Nintendo has managed to sell the system with barely more than Nintendo Licenses and token third party ports.”

You’re underestimating the value of the third party. Yes, it may be harder to come by a third part big hit game on a Nintendo console, but that shouldn’t undermine their affect. “Collectively” third parties are what keep Nintendo (as well as other consoles) afloat. I highly doubt the DS would sell well if it were only to play Nintendo games. Yes, Nintendo games got people interested in it, but don’t doubt that it wasn’t the promise of better and more varied third party games that got a lot of people to buy it (I know that’s why I did).

What you’re wanting Nintendo to do is give third parties the bare minimum they need to send their crap titles to Nintendo consoles, so that Nintendo alone stays afloat. Not only is that extremely bad practice for maintaining good relationships with third parties, and forcing Nintendo fans to go out and buy other consoles to play quality games that aren’t by Miyamoto (those do exist), it’s a practice that won’t work forever. Frankly, as big of a fan as I am, I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if it were harder for Nintendo to round up quality third party titles and exclusives this time around.


I'm not writing off third parties at all. I'm merely pointing out the fact that Nintendo can survive without overwhelming third party support, and that support is likely to continue in some small form. EA themselves seem content to keep all the hardware makers in the race because they're profiteering handsomely from the console wars. Nintendo may not grab as much thrid party mindshare as MS or Sony, but they don't need the lion's share to survive.

I'm not wanting Nintendo to ignore third parties. In fact, there are a couple third parties out there I'm in love with (for example, DMA, better known as Rockstar North, did amazing things on the N64, and their GTA series shows a significant new direction in videogames). But I'm saying that we shouldn't want to sacrifice the ability of Nintendo to take games where the envision they need should go, just to appease a larger audience. This isn't about HD support anymore, but the general perception that an idea is bad merely because it risks keeping third parties away.

Given that Nintendo shows resiliency, and the ability to survive with not-so-much third party support, there's only one reason a Nintendo Fan could desire more third-partys on a Nintendo system compared to competitors: a concern for marketshare and convenient bragging rights as opposed to a contentment with the actual Nintendo games we play.

Carmine M. Red
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Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Nile Boogie

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RE:No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #148 on: June 13, 2005, 05:27:10 PM »
"There currently are no plans for Nintendo Revolution to support high-definition video output. We have thoroughly considered the best means of video output for the system and are dedicated to delivering the best hardware possible to meet the demands of our consumers. Please stay tuned for more details on Nintendo Revolution to be revealed soon."

The wording of this is just vague enough for me to think that Nintendo has something up their sleeve. They have already stated that the 12cm disc would be HD (was this not reported on PGCs' front-page the night after XboX360 MTV crapfest), not my words, Nintendos. That has to mean something more than what we are seeing. Some kinda loop-hole or hidden message. Sound to me like they're coming up with a proprietary form of video output. As good as HD just not the same format.

Adding HD support to a console launching in 2006 can't cost THAT much more than a few dollars per unit , if that. You can buy a 27" brand X HDTV now for about $399.99, while my 27" Phillips cost $321.14 about three years ago. I plan on getting a HDTV as so as there is a reason for me (NFL Sunday Ticket I'm looking you're way)
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Offline BigJim

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RE: No Hi-def resolution, Nintendo's cost benefit analysis
« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2005, 06:00:16 PM »
Kairon, if your standard of success is Nintendo "surviving" then you're not thinking on the same wavelength as others here.

They don't just want a surviving Nintendo, they want a thriving one. Hot third party support is imperative to achieve that. Not many single 3rd party games move systems. But 3rd party games on the whole do. If I'm an RPG fan, I would scoff at the notion of even considering GameCube. Those handful of games wouldn't sustain me for the life of the system. Options are important. And big name releases like RE4 don't have to be events. Why shouldn't they be regular occurances?

These small, stupid decisions for short term profit don't help. Give the developers the OPTION of HD and let them decide if it's worth the "cost" or not. They want options just as we do. It's not even necessarily directly about "bragging rights" or marketshare either. Many of us simply don't want to shell out $600 or more for multiple consoles to play all the games we want to. There's nothing wrong with wanting better or equal 3rd party games, and there's certainly nothing wrong with not wanting to be overlooked altogether for games like we have been with GameCube.

Nintendo pigeonholed themselves into being the provider of "star power" and "safe" games... where games don't sell unless they have that classic Nintendo pixie dust sprinkled all over it, or has yet another famous IP on the box cover. That may be enough for YOU being strictly a "Nintendo fan." But more third party support would help break the mold and return more game options into their lineup... for the rest of us that don't buy consoles just for one developer.
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