Topic: casual gamers, nongamers.

[Edisim]

As curious as i am about revolution's controller, i more curious how they intend to rope in casual gamers and nongamers (and if the "revolutionary" aspect of revolution has anything to do with that). personally, the only kinds of games that I've seen attract nongamers (assuming they're hoping to bring them in using games at all--maybe with quirky titles like nintendogs) are games like dance dance revolution, police 911 (a motion sensing arade shooter game), some boxing game (motion sensing game where you actually throw punches wearing "gloves"), and the occassional light-gun game... I'm assuming nintendo is hoping to attract nongamers with more than just their dvd function.

if it isn't with the controller, how else might nintendo bring in the casual and non-gamers?

[jasonditz]

Approachability is the key. Look at the Mario series.

The original "Mario Bros." required only a joystick and a button. SMB took the thing to two buttons, SMW went even further with the SNES controller, SM 64 added analog stick and camera controls. Its a general progression toward more complicated control schemes, and if you do that with every title, each successive version is going to have a smaller potential audience.

My parents could handle "Mario Bros."... the NES games were a stretch, they probably could've handled them if they were more interested. Anything past that though, there's just no way. My mom expressed some interest in Mario Sunshine, but the controls were just too hard for someone who hasn't played video games much since the Atari 2600 days to get a handle on.

That's why the DS touch screen is such a good idea. It gives you options, plus for the non-gamer its a more familiar situation. A lot of the potential non-gamers actually play video games. There are whole buildings dedicated to them on Indian reservations. There's even a city in Nevada that almost exclusively caters to them.

People like that aren't averse to interactive video-based entertainment. In fact, many of them spend most of their entertainment budget on it.  

[wandering]

Games that have been hugely successful in the past....they were the sorts of games that you wanted to play the moment you saw them. Myst, the sims, ddr, nintendogs, the 2d marios, the orignal donkey kong...all were overtly intuitve and fun. Making those types of games will be what draws in the casual gamer.

Nintendo's shown us that it IS still possible to do, even in the 3d era, given unique hardware, good game design, and good marketing.  

[Ian Sane]

I think the appeal should be in the titles themselves, not the controller.  So maybe a one button game has more appeal for non-gamers (I don't actually think that's the case but for sake of arguement I'll go with it).  That doesn't mean the controller should only have one button or two buttons or whatever.  A controller is largely a restriction.  A developer's vision is limited by how what the controller can accept as input.  Now obviously some sort of restriction is necessary but it should be very flexible.  I can play Mario Bros on the Cube controller.  I can't play Metroid Prime on the NES controller.  So designing the controller to appeal to the one or two button crowd is dumb because it will greatly restrict the types of games that can be made.  You can make a one button game on an 8 button, dual analog with a d-pad controller.  Simplifying the controller will turn away the hardcore gamers who like having the option of playing more complex games.  So the solution is in the games.

[KnowsNothing]

I think the DS disproves what Ian just said.  

I agree that it's in the games, but as is the case with the DS, the unique and "noob friendly" controls shaped what game are being made for it.  The DS can handle both types of games; complicated and simple, which is of course integral.  But the DS takes it further than just a game that uses two buttons to a game that used ten buttons- some games don't even use buttons!  The controller is the player's link to the gaming world, so while the appeal may lie in the game, it's the controller that shapes the game into the final product.  So the solution lies in the games.  The games lie in the  controller.  A=B.  B=C.  A=C.

[Ian Sane]

"I think the DS disproves what Ian just said."

While the DS gains some major points for providing flexibility it is still limited in some ways.  The biggest example of course would be analog control and how utterly sh!tty using a touchscreen is compared to an analog stick.  I think the DS can sort of get away with that since the only games that are hurt by that so far are N64 ports and the fact that for a portable the DS is offering incredibly flexibility.  The DS controls are very impressive compared to the GBA's.  But for a console the DS would be disadvantaged.  While it adds some cool new stuff it loses too much other important stuff.

There are many types of games that would be really difficult to control on the DS.  That's acceptable for a portable but not for a console.

[KnowsNothing]

Well, I'm not saying that the Rev should use a touch screen or anything  I was mainly arguing this point:

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I think the appeal should be in the titles themselves, not the controller.....So the solution is in the games.

That's where my wonderful little equation comes in.  The appeal is in the games, but the games are only as much as what the controller can handle.  Also:

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I can play Mario Bros on the Cube controller. I can't play Metroid Prime on the NES controller

The DS is also an example of an exception.  The PS2 controller is more complicated than the DS, but the DS makes it possible to play games that are not possible on the PS2, while the DS can also handle games that the PS2 plays.  

Note: The DS isn't the prime example since it doesn't have an analog stick (even though I think the touch screen is fine), but I think you get my point.

[Fro]

It's pretty amazing how quickly people pick up Wario Ware for DS... even non-gamers.  It's very intuitive.  Jungle Beat is the same way.

If the Revolution has a control scheme that's as easy to pick up as that, but also provides challenge for the hardcore gamer, plus allows you to play current generation games, they have a winner on their hands.

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: Fro
It's pretty amazing how quickly people pick up Wario Ware for DS... even non-gamers.  It's very intuitive.  Jungle Beat is the same way.

If the Revolution has a control scheme that's as easy to pick up as that, but also provides challenge for the hardcore gamer, plus allows you to play current generation games, they have a winner on their hands.

Yeah good pt.  

I just got that JUngle Beat.  ADdicting game.  And get this - my Mom was in town visiting and she was frickin playing that game with my son and having a blast.  She actually was sorta hogging the thing.   Maybe getting too much into it.  

And you know what?   She said the bongos don't scare her like the controller does.  I laughed man.  This is what Nintendo is talking about.       Alot of folks who are around the controller think it's no problem but for a non-gamer they are intimidating.

And JUngle Beat is one of those games that's fun for all.  Folks like myself who play more games than the average person and folks like my Mom who I haven't seen play a game ever.

[jasonditz]

The biggest problem is how "busy" controllers look nowadays. Even if most of the buttons aren't neccesary for a game, they still LOOK intimidating. Ever show a non-gamer an Atari Jaguar controller?

The real trick is finding some way to make the controller more approachable to the non-gamer public without dumbing it down for the existing gamers. The DS seems to do that well, it adds functionality to the controls that the GBA lacked while still being accessable to the nongamers who wouldn't think of picking up a GBA.

That tells me that its at least possible to take the existing GC controller, maybe even adding more traditional functionality (like a Z2 button by the left shift, or a select button), so long as they come up with a more approachable addition AND make some titles that use that addition more or less exclusively. So we can get our Mario 128 with its great, Mario 64 derived control scheme, and we can also get a Mario-branded game that your mother can sit down and figure out the controls to.

[nemo_83]

Nintendo definately doesn't need to forget about the hardcore gamers in their quest to get more people to play their games.  Presently casuals don't play Cube because of image (they're casuals, they're dumb like that).  But that is it, they're dumb.  Nintendo software and hardware is too genius for them.  It flies right over their heads.  I looked at the Cube and thought it Apple inspired; casuals looked at the Cube and saw Fisher Price lunchbox.  They lack the ability to think for themselves; they lack the ability to look ahead to the future.  

We though are smart enough to see everything from the view of the initiated.  We can predict future decissions by these companies based on their past actions.  For example, can we really trust Sony with their CELL hype after the PS2?  It wasn't because the PS2 wasn't powerful; it was just too damn complicated.  And CELL is going to make the Emotion Engine look like a walk in the park to develop on.

Hardcore gamers like games because they can respect a good game.  Casuals don't understand what they have when they play a Zelda or Metroid.  They don't realize how much better the game is designed; the puzzles, the graphics, the levels, etc.  All casuals pick up on is fun; and if it isn't imediatly fun they get bored quick.  To make games like Zelda and Metroid more fun Nintendo could start by removing the traditional training section at the beginning of the game.  The DS has shown that mouse cursor controls are more direct and help simplify Metroid in 3d.  The REV will take this further in Zelda and Metroid in the future.  I'm speaking of direct control over the arms so you can use your thumbs for analog stick character control and trackball camera control.  

I believe that a button is a button is a button is a button.  They are nothing but switches.  We need new physical mechanics on the controller.  Look at what the analog trigger has done for controllers.  It is basically nothing more than an internal gear/wheel that is turned and measures how far it is pushed.  Think of the scroll wheel on your mouse.  

[nemo_83]

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Originally posted by: jasonditz
The biggest problem is how "busy" controllers look nowadays. Even if most of the buttons aren't neccesary for a game, they still LOOK intimidating. Ever show a non-gamer an Atari Jaguar controller?

The real trick is finding some way to make the controller more approachable to the non-gamer public without dumbing it down for the existing gamers. The DS seems to do that well, it adds functionality to the controls that the GBA lacked while still being accessable to the nongamers who wouldn't think of picking up a GBA.

That tells me that its at least possible to take the existing GC controller, maybe even adding more traditional functionality (like a Z2 button by the left shift, or a select button), so long as they come up with a more approachable addition AND make some titles that use that addition more or less exclusively. So we can get our Mario 128 with its great, Mario 64 derived control scheme, and we can also get a Mario-branded game that your mother can sit down and figure out the controls to.

I agree that controllers look too busy these days; but do you think some of that could be blamed on how each button stands out with a different color and shape.  The complexity is highlighted with colors that give the casuals little clue as to what each mechanic does.  Look at the Cube controller.  The way the b button is different in color and shape makes it stand out from everything else on the controller.  Things would look less busy if the b button where neutrally colored like x and y; and if the b button were bean shaped it would make the pad look more symetrical.  If I could go back in time I would also remove the dpad, put the analog stick where the dpad is now, place a Cube face button layout on each side of the controller in the primary position, put a neutrally colored trackball in the place of the cstick, and remove the z button placing a mouse scroll wheel over each trigger.  Basically I feel that the controller needs to work the same for left and right handed people like the DS.

The buttons and controller should all be done in values of lights and darks.

[Dasmos]

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Originally posted by: nemo_83
I believe that a button is a button is a button is a button.

WTF? You are confusing me..........

I believe that Nintendo should cater to all gamers, whether they be hardcore, casual, or non-gamers. They should never alienate someone who has the potential to be a gamer.

[MrMojoRising]

Your first post makes us sound like elitists Nemo...not that we aren't smarter than everyone else, we just need to make sure the casual gamers hear us talking like that.  Remember, they've played a lot of GTA they are well aware how to kill someone.

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If I could go back in time I would also remove the dpad, put the analog stick where the dpad is now,

Ahh, that's why I hate the PS2 controller!

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Basically I feel that the controller needs to work the same for left and right handed people like the DS

Screw that, aren't left handed people only like 9% of the population or something...they've gotten along fine using regular controllers so far.  Plus the reason the DS somewhat needs that is because you want to use your dominant hand with the stylus.  I don't think with a normal controller it really matters what hand is dominant since both are used rather thouroughly most of the time.

[Don'tHate742]

"I believe that Nintendo should cater to all gamers, whether they be hardcore, casual, or non-gamers. They should never alienate someone who has the potential to be a gamer. "

Agreed, but the question isn't whether they should or shouldn't target all gamers, it's how.

Nintendo should realize that all games aren't for everyone. Some people like very deep complicated games (Ian for one), while others just like to pick up and play for a bit.

Nintendo is always trying to realize the center, but tend to dissapoint those that are on the extreme polars.

They need to change their philosophy. Instead of making games that try to appeal to everyone, make many games that appeal to many specific groups. That's one of the reason PS2 is dominating. It has variety, and people love variety.

It would take alot of resources, but it would ultimately be for the better.

A prime example of this is the GBA. It has very simple games like Chu-Chu Rocket, yet very deep games like Golden-Sun and Fire Emblem. If Nintendo could somehow garner support to make a wide variety of games for the REV, while leading the way through example, it could help their image and more importantly their popularity.

[Edisim]

well, all your suggestions and discussion center mostly around the casual gamer. casaul gamers are already paying attention to the gaming scene. it's the nongamers that are really going to be tricky to reel in because they're not even interested at all; they're not even AWARE of "control schemes" or any such thing... but the dk bongos -- that's a great example of how people who are nongamers can be pulled in: they see something unusual, they try it, it's easy, it's intuitive, and it's fun, so they like it... but nintendo obviously can't release specialised controllers like that all the time, and there's no way something like that could be the revolutions standard controller. unless they plan to have a standard controller for core and casual gamers and maybe one specialised controller that is interesting enough to make nongamers curious.. not that i want to speculate on the controllers.. it's just that i don't think interesting games are necessarily enough to get the nongamer's attention and get them interested enough to care... the dk bongos, motion sensing games where people move around a lot, etc -- it's easy to see how this stuff can easily get someone's interest/curiosity but... how else?

maybe i should phrase it this way: if you were a nongamer (if you can imagine that), what would it take to get you interested enough to buy a revolution?

[Gremio]

Quote
Originally posted by: Edisim
As curious as i am about revolution's controller, i more curious how they intend to rope in casual gamers and nongamers (and if the "revolutionary" aspect of revolution has anything to do with that). personally, the only kinds of games that I've seen attract nongamers (assuming they're hoping to bring them in using games at all--maybe with quirky titles like nintendogs) are games like dance dance revolution, police 911 (a motion sensing arade shooter game), some boxing game (motion sensing game where you actually throw punches wearing "gloves"), and the occassional light-gun game... I'm assuming nintendo is hoping to attract nongamers with more than just their dvd function.

if it isn't with the controller, how else might nintendo bring in the casual and non-gamers?

The only thing I can think of is better controller interface and new and more varied game genres. Maybe the controller will be so starkly different in terms of use that it will enable games to have more interactive gameplay and allow for brand new genres and the resurrection of old genres that faded out over the years. Not everyone likes the kind of games that currently flood the market.

The DS even allows for genre expansion and that's coming from a handheld which is very limited in what it can do. A console can have a whole controller to itself which opens the door to posibilities. I think if games start offering new types of play styles, become more interactive and easier to pick up and get into, only then will they begin to attract more non-gamers.

I hate to say it but even I am beginning to feel like I'm straying further and further away from modern gaming. A good deal of the games I have this gen anyway are either quirky games (Katamari), residue from last gen (Disgaea), old-school games (Ikaruga) or non-traditional games (Animal Crossing). And a lot of the games I play tend to be shorter or easier to get into.  I don't have a whole lot of time. When I was a teenager I could sit in front of the TV and play Chrono Trigger for several hours straight after school. Now it takes me several weeks to beat the average 40+ hour RPG.

I'm also starting to feel kinda intimidated by all the new changes and additions that are going to happen to consoles next gen. I look at my friends and family members who stopped gaming over the years and sometimes I wonder if I'll be joining them someday too.