Topic: Next Generation's Optical Format

[BlackNMild2k1]

Is Sony still going to use Blu-ray in PS3, is it too late for MS to change the optical format for next gen?  Well I guess that all depends on how Sony's negotiations to avoid a format war go....

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8051

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Until now, Sony has stood firmly behind the Blu-ray format.
Now the Japanese giant has told Reuters that it may be willing to reach an agreement with its competitors to put an end to the format war before it begins.

"From the point of view to provide the best service to the consumer, one format is better than two. We're open to discussions," said Yukinori Kawauchi, the general manager heading up the next-gen DVD project at Sony's Video Group.

However, Sony has yet to put a set of plans for the single format on the table: "There's no visible progress to do that [create a single standard]," said Kawauchi.

If they reach an agreement b4 MS start mass producing, do you think it would be too late to swith from DVD9 to the new drives w/o having a huge pricing spike? I sure they only went with DVD9 to avoid being stuck with the wrong choice when a format is chosen.

Obviously Sony would go with the new drives, but what do you think Nintendo would do?

edit: title

[Grant10k]

There is no 'wrong' choice. Movies have a wrong choice because if a movie comes out on Blu-ray and everyone buys a HD-DVD player, that movie won't sell (untill they simply re-release it 10 minues later on HD-DVD). MS can choose whatever they want, they can put all there games on Purpl-ray for all it matters.

Edit: said 'moves' instead of 'games' the first time.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Well you don't want to have and promote using a HD-DVD drive in Xbox 360 if everyone else ends up supporting  Blu-ray.  You would be saying that it can play next generation HD games & movies and you would be lying, cause there wouldn't really be any Next Gen HD movies for HD-DVD 'cause they would all be for Blu-ray.  

The movies are the ones that don't have a 'wrong' choice as they can release on whatever format they want.
Just as Game Studios can port their games, Movie Studios can port their movies.  Its the hardware manufacturer that loses out. (i.e. Nintendo getting the shaft on many could be ports)

[kirby_killer_dedede]

So Sony's looking for an excuse to back out now are they?  

[ruby_onix]

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Well you don't want to have and promote using a HD-DVD drive in Xbox 360 if everyone else ends up supporting Blu-ray.

You also wouldn't want to have DVD9 as your drive in the Xbox 360 if everyone ends up supporting Blu-ray.

HD DVD and Blu-ray are both a step up from DVD. And backwards compatible with DVD. If Microsoft took the "wrong" step up, it would be no more "wrong" than just sticking with DVD. If Microsoft went with HD DVD, and nobody adopted HD DVD, then Microsoft would just have DVD movies, and a nearly-proprietary format for increased storage space in games.

Microsoft probably just doesn't think the "step up" is financially worth it right now, and the fact that there are no guarantees about which step is the "right one" probably does factor into that.


Edit: Unless you believe the rumors that say Microsoft dropped HD DVD because their suppliers said they weren't entirely ready for HD DVD, and wouldn't be able to make enough drives to meet MS's "best case scenerio" projections for the Xbox 360's possible success.

[Ian Sane]

All of this is moot because of one important thing:  I'm not going to repurchase my entire DVD collection and neither is 90% of the population.  VHS was the standard for nearly two decades.  I don't remember a time where they didn't exist.  DVDs are relatively new.  They've only really come into wide acceptance in the last few years.  The switchover isn't even finished since VHS is largely still available (compare this to records and tapes which are near impossible to find now compared to CDs).  Since most people are still on their first DVD player they're not going to rush out and buy a new format regardless of how great it really is.  Microsoft is playing it smart because they know that the general public isn't going to replace a format they basically just started using in the next five years.

All that really matters when choosing a format for a game console is how cheap it is, how much it can store, and how hard is it to pirate.

[Grant10k]

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Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1
Well you don't want to have and promote using a HD-DVD drive in Xbox 360 if everyone else ends up supporting  Blu-ray.  You would be saying that it can play next generation HD games & movies and you would be lying, cause there wouldn't really be any Next Gen HD movies for HD-DVD 'cause they would all be for Blu-ray.  

The movies are the ones that don't have a 'wrong' choice as they can release on whatever format they want.
Just as Game Studios can port their games, Movie Studios can port their movies.  Its the hardware manufacturer that loses out. (i.e. Nintendo getting the shaft on many could be ports)

Well, yeah, if you are selling the Xbox360 as a movie player, but as a console device, it doesn’t mater. Say Xbox plays HD-DVDs, no one is going to release Xbox games on Blu-ray. Movies do have a wrong choice, for example: Betamax is the wrong choice, VHS is the correct choice.

I'm no expert, but I would think that choosing the 'wrong' medium would be beneficial as far a piracy is concerned. No one has a Gamecube disc burner, but many people have Xbox and Ps2 disk burners, heck, you can even read ps2 disks on a PC without any special set up (aside from owning a DVD rom).

If you choose 'correctly' you sell a few extra consoles as movie players, however if you choose wisely, you save a few grand on piracy prevention.

IAN:exacly, I agree 103%
I believe that HD-dvd or Blu-ray will go the way of the laserdisc, while not widely popular, people with expensive big screen HD setups will have them to take advantage of their superior resolution, but most people will stick with DVD's because in all honesty, DVDs look damn fine, I don't think there is anything wrong with them.  

[BlackNMild2k1]

They have come up with a  technique to put a DVD layer on top of the Blu-ray(& HD-DVD?) layer so that all the disc you buy now are Blu-ray(& HD-DVD?) comaptable whenever you decide to upgrade but for now still work in your regular DVD player.

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All that really matters when choosing a format for a game console is how cheap it is, how much it can store, and how hard is it to pirate.

DVD9 may be the cheapest, but it also has the least amount of storage & isn't it already pirate-able?

p.s. I'm not 100% sure what the differences between regular DVD & DVD9 are, I just know that it hold more data than a regular DVD but is still playable in regular DVD players, right?

[Renny]

DVD9 is a dual-layer DVD. I don't know when this standard was adopted to the DVD Forum, but I imagine it's been around for quite awhile, near the DVD's original inception. Such that virtulally every DVD player/drive in use should support it by now. The PS2 and Xbox support dual-layer DVDs. Still, in two years time DVD9 will be next generation's Cube disc. It won't prevent the Xbox360 from having great games, but it might deter 3rd parties from developing multiplatform games for the system. Which is exactly what MS is striving for.

I can see MS changing to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray once  it's cheap enough, early adopters be damned. Their console won't launch spectacularly, it'll get killed once the PS3 is out, and the Revolution[?]. MS will be desperate enough to hurt their core fanbase to keep up.

[Darc Requiem]

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Originally posted by: Renny
DVD9 is a dual-layer DVD. I don't know when this standard was adopted to the DVD Forum, but I imagine it's been around for quite awhile, near the DVD's original inception. Such that virtulally every DVD player/drive in use should support it by now. The PS2 and Xbox support dual-layer DVDs. Still, in two years time DVD9 will be next generation's Cube disc. It won't prevent the Xbox360 from having great games, but it might deter 3rd parties from developing multiplatform games for the system. Which is exactly what MS is striving for.

I can see MS changing to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray once  it's cheap enough, early adopters be damned. Their console won't launch spectacularly, it'll get killed once the PS3 is out, and the Revolution[?]. MS will be desperate enough to hurt their core fanbase to keep up.

My thoughts exactly. MS is going to have the same problem Cube had, lazy third parties that will say there isn't enough space on DVD9. With Sony using Blu-Ray and Nintendo rumored to be  using an HD-DVD based medium.......MS is gonna have the smallest storage medium by far.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

The difference between 1.5GB and 9.4GB (or whatever DVD9 is) is a huge difference.  9.4GB v 15GB (HD-DVD) is even less of an issue.  Considering most games on the current generation don't get anywhere near 9.4GB, I'm not seeing a huge problem (even with higher-res textures).

Of course, Nintendo figured 1.5GB was plenty, and though it is by their ROM-compression N64 standards, there are enough 2-disc GC games to prove Nintendo wrong.  The same COULD happen to MS.  Frankly, I think Nintendo might go for a similarly-sized disc that is a mini-HDDVD disc.

[KDR_11k]

Data, like gasses, has a tendency to fill all available space. In other words, with 25GB discs you'll see 25GB games (or somewhat less but still more than 9). Sure, that stuff would have fit on 9GB if it was made for 9GB in first place but now you have all that data and need to compress it. Reducing texture sizes, audio sampling rate, FMV quality, etc. HD content wants HD space.

[Don'tHate742]

Is everyone forgetting the fact that major hollywood studios are backing HD-DVD?

Anyways, Ian....your point, while a good one, doesn't pertain to this day and age. People don't mind mixing their collections. Hell...If I can buy a new piece of hardware that steps up the level of clarity while playing the DVD's I already own...I'm sold. There won't be a complete switch anytime soon, but the time for DVD's to gradually fade out is coming soon...like next year or so.

If you haven't seen HD in display, check them out now. I'm not talking about at a BestBuy, but at a friends house. If they have priority HD channels like ESPN Football or Discovery...it is an amazing experience. I watched the Discovery channel for 2 hours simply because I could see every detail in the lion's fur, and in the turtle's skin. It is so much more engaging. I can't wait to see the first movies come out.

If I had an HD display, I would pick up an HD-DVD player and a movie in a second.

[Djunknown]

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There won't be a complete switch anytime soon, but the time for DVD's to gradually fade out is coming soon...like next year or so.

I have to disagree on this one. I'm with Ian here. I remember back in 1996 that DVD's were bleeding edge, yet so expensive.  I believe it was around the year 2000 or so that DVD's started to get popular with the masses. Switching technologies in 5 years? C'mon...

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If they have priority HD channels like ESPN Football or Discovery...it is an amazing experience.

I won't deny that. Its really something to look at. But I have to ask: How big was your buddy's TV and how much did it cost? Was it a flat panel or flat screen? At this stage, they're still too expensive for the common man's reach.

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If I had an HD display, I would pick up an HD-DVD player and a movie in a second.

That's a big if. Is there any reason why you don't have an HD display right now? Does it have something to do with the price?

As far as gaming is concerned, could this create porting problems? Sony wants to go their way, MS theirs, no doubt Nintendo will do the same. three potential radically different formats! Imagine that....

[Ian Sane]

"As far as gaming is concerned, could this create porting problems? Sony wants to go their way, MS theirs, no doubt Nintendo will do the same. three potential radically different formats! Imagine that...."

That actually might be good for the industry.  Third party games were a whole lot more interesting last gen because the top two consoles, Playstation and N64, were so different that nearly every third party game was an exclusive.  So nearly every third party game made full use of the hardware it was on.  With this gen there are many more generic third party games.  That's because it's so easy to port so so many titles are made that don't make full use of any one console.  Plus because of the ease of porting Nintendo lost a fair bit of exclusive support it used to have on the N64.

Remember Acclaim?  On the N64 they were actually pretty good.  They didn't make total classics but that made pretty decent titles like Turok and Extreme G.  They made games that made full use of the hardware and because they were exclusive games they received more attention from gamers.  This gen their games took a huge nosedive because they designed them with three consoles in mind.  They also went under partially because with multiplatform games they lost the attention that gamers put on exclusives.  Midway is largely the same way.  They were much better last generation when they made exclusive games.

So realistically if all three consoles next gen have too different of formats we might see more exclusive support across the board.  Though it's a tricky situation.  If two of the consoles use compatible formats and the third doesn't we might see the oddball get squeezed out for being different.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The word sliding along the grapevine is that Blu-ray won for new format and HD-DVD is the software

http://ranobe.com/up/updata/up36772.jpg

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TOKYO (Nikkei)--In ongoing negotiations between Sony Corp. (SNE) and Toshiba Corp. (6502.TO) toward developing a unified standard for next-generation DVDs, the two sides are hammering out a format in which Toshiba's software technology would be coupled with Sony's disc structure, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reports in its Tuesday morning edition.

The two camps are focusing on the Sony format for the optical disc structure, in which data is recorded 0.1mm from the disc's surface. Toshiba's software, which offers efficient data transfer and copyright protection, would be incorporated into the unified format.

In recent talks, Toshiba has taken a more flexible stance, noting that the Sony disc structure may be inevitable in light of various considerations. The company is seeking proof that the discs based on the Sony format can be mass-produced at low cost.

Its not 100% official that they will be merged, but if SONY can make the disc cheaper to produce then I'm sure it will be a sure deal.

We know what Sony is aiming for, but where does that leave Nintendo?

[couchmonkey]

Nintendo should swallow its pride and buy "Blu-whatever-VDs" from Sony unless it can come up with a medium of its own that's just about as cheap to produce and the same size (not likely).  The new medium will probably not be widely piratable until the end of the generation anyway.  Well, by Western standards, it may be a different story in Asian countries where the market favours mass-pirated products, but it's not like Sony or MS will do any better, and Nintendo won't tick developers off.

Although, I personally don't think disc size has been that big of an issue for GameCube...yes, developers complain now and then, and it has hurt a few games like Mega Man Anniversary Collection, but on the whole I think Nintendo's third-place marketshare and the weak sales of third-party software on the Cube had a much bigger affect on third-party support than the size of the discs...but it is an issue that could hurt Microsoft a little.

[couchmonkey]

Oopsie!  Double post!  *Prays for forgiveness from Internet God!*

[JonLeung]

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Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1The word sliding along the grapevine is that Blu-ray won for new format and HD-DVD is the software

Oh, that's awesome.

If I have my facts right, Blu-Ray holds more than the former HD-DVD format, right?  Then I would prefer Blu-Ray's format, but hopefully they also take the name of HD-DVD...it actually sounds like a proper step up from DVD.

[BigJim]

Toshiba seems to be denying this now.

Toshiba dampens talk of Blu-ray, HD deal

[BlackNMild2k1]

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Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1

Its not 100% official that they will be merged, but if SONY can make the disc cheaper to produce then I'm sure it will be a sure deal.

Looks like talk aren't going so well.....

EE Times

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Talks among Matsushita, Sony and Toshiba designed to unify competing next-generation DVD formats have failed, making it more likely the rivals will follow separate paths to the video market.
Backers of the rival HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats said talks would nevertheless continue.

Sony and Toshiba updated the status of unification talks during both meetings, according to attendees. Kiyoshi Nishitani, Sony's senior vice president, acknowledged that the three companies had failed to reach an agreement, according to a Sony spokesman.

Meanwhile, Yoshihide Fujii, president and CEO of Toshiba Digital Media Network Co., confirmed that if the 0.1-mm disk format reaches satisfactory production and cost levels, unification based on the 0.1-mm cover layer was still possible. Still, industry sources said the format has yet to meet those requirements.

The HD DVD group said it will stick to its schedule for introducing HD DVD products later this year.

PS3 still Blu-ray?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Update again:

MSNBC.com

Matsushita tells Toshiba to give in to Blu-ray physical disc format

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The president of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. said on Thursday it is up to Toshiba Corp. to yield its position in talks on a unified format for next-generation DVD technology, making clear that Matsushita and its partner Sony Corp. won’t budge.

“The talks continue, they have not collapsed,” Nakamura told a group of reporters at a get-together of industry executives in Tokyo. “But Matsushita and Sony have not changed their stance. We are waiting for Toshiba’s decision.”

The Blu-ray camp emphasizes the high recording capacity of its discs while HD-DVD promoters says its format would mean a less costly transition for the industry because it is very close to the structure of current discs.

“There is still a chance to create a new format, but we will not waver on the 0.1 mm point,” Nakamura said. “I call on them to bring up issues other than 0.1. Let’s talk about that.”

With companies from both camps gearing up to launch products compatible with their respective formats, the window of opportunity is closing fast.

Toshiba has unveiled plans to launch HD DVD players in the last quarter of 2005 while Sony announced plans this week to introduce its new PlayStation video game console in spring 2006 equipped with a Blu-ray disc drive.

“There is no time. If we can’t reach a compromise then (unification) itself will become more and more difficult,” Nakamura said.

with PS3 on the horizon and backing Blu-ray, I think it would be in Toshiba's besy interest to unify and get in on the money train before they get left behind with the 45-65 million+ PS3's about to be sold starting next year.
 
and I will also take that as an indirect hint that Nintendo's next-gen custom 12cm disc format will be based on Blu-ray technology.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I know what you're thinking....

Same old news just a different day.

well you're right.....

Forbes.com

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Sony Corp, Matsushita Electric Industrial Co and Toshiba Corp may restart talks aimed at working out a common DVD format after their respective shareholders meetings are held later this month, Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported, citing sources familiar with the matter.

Sony's meeting is scheduled for June 22, Toshiba's for June 24 and Matsushita's for June 29. Sony Chairman and CEO Nobuyuki Idei will resign and be succeeded in both posts by Howard Stringer. In addition, Ryoji Chubachi will become the new president.

Toshiba Chairman Taizo Nishimuro will be replaced by current President Tadashi Okamura, with Senior Managing Director Atsutoshi Nishida being promoted to president.

The previous talks broke down because managing directors and lower-ranking officials from the three firms got bogged down in debate over which of the two formats excelled in technological terms, the newspaper noted.

Now the three manufacturers aim to send their senior officials to the negotiating table for a top-down approach, before moving on to another discussion on technological matters, the Nikkei quoted the sources as saying.

Supposedly some new leadership will put some life back into these negotiations.

We still might be seeing a hybrid format in (a) Next-gen console(s).  

[couchmonkey]

I doubt it's the case since, from what I've heard, Sony's divisions are all pretty insulated from each other, but I can't help but wonder if Sony is gumming up negotiations partially to ensure it has a media advantage next generation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Are you saying that Sony is puposely delaying negotiations so that MS woun't have time to change the drives to blue-laser format?  I know MS doesn't want to go with HD-DVD if it is gonna be the loser format so its waiting for a final verdict on a hybrid format.  I wonder if Nintendo is already set in stone or if they are waiting for a hybrid drive announcement also?