Topic: Will the DS get a chance to live?

[bingbangboom]

Right now the DS is sandwiched in a pretty bad place. Between the Gameboy Advance SP and the PSP. Not to mention the NEXT Gameboy possibly coming out next year. If you look at it right now, developers just didn't have enough time to make quality titles as the DS was rushed for the holiday shopping season. Many developers have to get used to the technology also and really have to step back and deside what they want to do.

Will the DS get a chance to live? It is really up to Nintendo. Right now Nintendo hasn't really shoved the effort into the system that it needs. With only 2 first party games released and many games not really showing that much of a difference between DS and GBA, It is really up to Nintendo to make the DS live.

There is a high possiblity that Nintendo will become too stretched out. GBA, GC, DS, N5 (Revolution), Gameboy Evolution.... that is a possiblity of making games for 5 systems. Now there is talk of a new re-re-design of the Gameboy at the end of the year. I look at that as possibly more of a "kid" design for the GBA. They will use it to tap a younger market cause younger kids want the system. This will also mean less quality GBA titles as publishers do not want to put forth the effort of making quality games for kids that really don't know any better.

And right now with the DS, it is kinda inbetween. Developers will start to develop titles for either the PSP and GBE. The BEST thing nintendo can do is give developers early builds of the next Gameboy. That way at launch there will be titles. If the DS was launched at any other time it would have failed. It was a rushed product and even the design now is already being looked at for a modification.

But the games are not there to drive the system. It will again be up to Nintendo to do this. Nintendo really has to build this market up itself so that other publishers will want to join in. It is sad but I believe we will see more and more GBA Plus + games on the DS similar to The Urbz and Robots. Just GBA games with tacked on features. It is kinda hard to tell people that this is a brand new thing when you allow these games to bring down the system. Nintendo has been very loose with allowing software on the DS so far. Look at Ping Pals. There should be some sort of quality to keep all the games fairly good. Right now you don't even have a handful of games. Hopefully E3 will showcase a full library of upcoming games and will put doubts to rest.

If not, get ready for a strong push for a Next Gen Gameboy with the power of a Gamecube.

[darknight06]

You tell developers these days what to do, they start hating you.  If they start hating you, they start running.  Won't help.

[KnowsNothing]

When they release the next game Boy, they'll stop developing for the GBA.  Same witht he Rev and the GC.  A few titles may trickle through, but the efforts of all parties will be focused on the new systems.  Nintendo is not going to be spread out between five systems.  If Ninty starts handing out "GBE" dev kits soon...now THAT will draw attention away from the DS.  There's a boatload of awesome games on the horizon for the DS, and things are generally looking good.   The next Game Boy won't come out before there are enough titles on the DS to make it a worthwhile system, and since Ninty considers the DS a third-pillar, we know that even after the next Game Boy comes out we'll probably still get great first and second party games for it.  

[Noble~Feather]

I think if DS can survive the wrath of the PSP, then it'll live a long, healthy life. Because I can assure you GBE will not release at the end of the year.

[Don'tHate742]

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I just had some inspiration from looking at your info Feather...hehe

Get it. It's a king...GET IT!    

[PaLaDiN]

Isn't it alive already?

[bingbangboom]

Yeah, I know the NEXT GB will not be out by the end of the year. I wouldn't be suprised if Nintendo decides to redesign it for a younger crowd or possiblity of licenesed GBA SP designs. A la Pokemon versions, Sponge Bob, or something similar. The GBA will be moved toward a younger crowd in general.

The main thing is that will Nintendo push it's own system and right now I havn't seen a clear "YES". Not to knock 2D, but so far almost all the games they have shown are 2D sidescrollers. That doesn't give people a huge difference between the GBA and DS. In addition, not suprising, it is almost as if Nintendo is ripping past games for the DS like Mario 64, Mario Kart and Animal Crossing.

Nintendo is not even fully updating GB classic games such as Advance Wars. Hopefully the looks so far for games have been very very early. But even so, you can't really deny the difference so far on presentation between PSP and DS games. When the PSP is released, it will have a larger and more diverse software library then the DS has, dispite almost a 6 month gap.

2D games will not sell the DS, not matter how good the games are. The DS will start becoming a Gameboy Advance Plus... instead of something really new. Heck, if they were going to do that, they should have just released the DS as an updated SP, not something brand new. And Nintendo is being way too secret about projects. How can you create buzz about the DS if you show virtually nothing? Or the fact that you relegate a screen to a "map".

I think what the best thing Nintendo could do is to basically make the DS a gamer's dream machine. Allow people to develop their own home brew games. Create a comunity where people will want to share their games over the internet. Where a publisher could possibly pick up a game and sell it in retail. Or uploading stations where people can go and browse games and upload them to blank carts.

We know the next Gameboy will come by and push the PSP back down. In the mean time, I don't really know if the DS will be anything but promises unfufilled. Is it really a new gaming experence when there is little to experience?

[Hostile Creation]

"2D games will not sell the DS, not matter how good the games are"
You mean like Warioware hasn't sold, and Yoshi Touch&Go hasn't sold (or in America, will sell), or how the upcoming Mario Bros. game won't sell, or how GBA games didn't sell in their lifetime.  That's a ridiculous statement, these games have been selling as well, if not better, than the 3D games available.
I know I'm just as prone to buying 2-D games as 3D.

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: bingbangboom
Right now Nintendo hasn't really shoved the effort into the system that it needs. With only 2 first party games released and many games not really showing that much of a difference between DS and GBA, It is really up to Nintendo to make the DS live.

Nintendo of America's hoping that by releasing one first party game every two months or so with inflated price tags, the system will sell four hundred billion units by March. blol, even Europe's getting more DS lovin' from Nintendo.

[couchmonkey]

I agree that it's up to Nintendo to sell the DS and that the company has done a mediocre job so far, and I'm always being pessimistic...

But I love to argue, so now I'm going to tell you how great the DS is!  Seriously, I think it's way too early to be writing the DS off.  Nintendo has already given us a look at more than 10 upcoming first-party games and the launch sales for the DS are great in every new territory it enters.  Nintendo will support this system.  People are just being impatient and getting worried because they aren't seeing enough new games.  Nintendo should have been releasing games in January because now the exact problem some of us said would happen is happening: everyone is losing confidence in the system.

Things are going to turn around, as they will with any system.  There will be a nice steady stream of releases starting this month and you can bet there will be dozens of new games from September through December.  I do have my fears that DS is going to have a shorter lifespan than usual, but it will be supported.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Well first off the GBE isn't coming out this year or the next, perhaps a GBA SP with wireless and maybe play-yan built in, but not a totally new Game boy, so on that front the DS has nothing to worry about.

The next part is games, since its release the complaint is a lack of games, well that's mostly due to the rushed launch, the DS has already established an impressive base and is on track to have almost 6 million owners by the end of the fiscal year, Developers are not going to ignore it, especially once the online plan is announced.

In addition recent famitsu ratings have shown some rather impressive games are coming to the DS, so i see this drought of good games ending soon.

As for the PSP its hardware sales continue to trail the DS, and its software sales are abysmal, this is even after its lower price in Japan than in NA, so I don't see any likely improvement when it arrives here.

[bingbangboom]

I have the DS and personally love 2D games and hope that they stay alive... but what I was saying that they won't SELL the handheld. You take a picture of a game like Wario Ware Touched and Warioware Twisted and there is very little difference. Infact many people are already saying Twisted is a better experence. Same thing with other games such as Yoshi Touch & Go and upcoming Kirby and Castlevania games. I am not doubting that the games are good or fun to play. But there isn't really a big difference. This could be due to just transfering production from the GBA to the DS with upgraded features that you couldn't do on the GBA.

You look to the common gamer and show them Need For Speed Underground for GBA and DS and there is only a slight difference. You are basically saying that you have to play the game first then you will understand. Right now more than half of the current DS lineup is garbage and the rest is subpar. If you take Mario 64 out of there, then you have nothing. And infact many people believe the best part of that game are the mini games.

I am a Nintendo supporter, but that doesn't mean I follow them blindly. It is clear to see that Nintendo itself isn't pushing the handheld where it needs to go. And there shouldn't really be so secretive with upcoming games for it because it would be too hard for other companies to steal Nintendo's idea. Sony isn't going to release an add on screen.

There is no real NEW killer app for it, but it is still young. If though by the end of the year there is nothing really new and exciting for the DS, what is the point. Right now most of the games are GBA Plus games or mediocre games. Hopefully EA will put more time into their sports games and really push the limits. They also have very little third party support compared to the PSP. Heck, they have very little first party support. And no offense, Pokemon Dash is a joke. It is a slapped together game that will be dissapointing. Heck, there is little reason other than time that Yoshi Touch & Go couldn't have been a 3D/2D game other than if the DS couldn't handle it. You can't even give a handful of quality games so far.

Nintendo rushed out a product to make a quick buck and now they are going to pay for it. I have little doubt that the PSP will sell HUGE in the US. Even if the games suck even worse than the DS games... cause most of the US are graphic whores. No offense to whores. But you show them any game that is pretty and there is no doubt they want that more. BTW, im american. And there are times when I am like that. Anyway... Nintendo has yet to show me why someone should get the DS. Until then, I can't really recommend it. It is up to them though, no one else.

[joshnickerson]

To be honest, during the first year or so of the GBA's life, there were no titles that *I* thought were system sellers (in my opinion anyway) and it wasn't until that second year that we really got some gems coming out. I honestly doubt Nintendo rushed the DS out to "make a quick buck" though.

Was the system rushed? Yeah. Were the initial games rushed? Oh yeah. Does this mean the DS is DSoomed? Nah. But Nintendo needs to pull something out that's very big (coughPokemononlinecough) and do it very fast.  

[Robotor]

When I show the DS to a common gamer they think it's pretty cool, but you can't just show you have to play.  That's the point of the DS it's a different way of playing not looking.  And great games don't have to use 3-D.  This gameboy plus stuff is nonsense, what is this generation but N64 plus, or playstation plus.

Regardless, I'm sure the DS will have a good life.  The GBE probably won't come out this year, or even the next.  The Nintendo name on a handheld means something, hence the good sales.  The PSP is pretty cool, but not for the $250 they are asking, I'm sure many will realize they could get an XBOX and a Cube, or an i-pod for that sort of money.  The DS is also a third pillar, so even after the GBE comes out, new games should come out on the DS expanding the lifespan a little more.  I wouldn't worry about lifespan too much, it's going to be there.

[bingbangboom]

Alot of people really and honestly have no idea that Nintendo makes the Gameboy, Gamecube and DS. You actually have to tell them. I am talking more the common consumer. As far as GBA Plus games, I am refering to titles developed for the GBA and tacked on to the DS. The two main ones are The Urbz and Robots.

But also, the DS has yet to really do something that totally different. It is neat but good? It really has nothing to do with 3D or 2D though. But what I am saying is that for the common gamer, they want 3D when you can do 3D. Also the next GB will be hinted at E3 and shown fully at NEXT years E3 along with the "Revolution"... Revolution & Evolution, hmmmm? Nintendo is going to push a launch of a home console and handheld at the same time, possibly. Nintendo really has a brand name they have to build up and re-invent. They don't have the "cool" factor anymore. Something hopefully they can fix.

[KDR_11k]

Blame the cheapass third party developers for the "GBA+" games.

A problem with 3D on the DS is that the touchscreen is 2D so you'd need additional data to determine a point in space you are touching. That's fine as long as you touch things that already exist in the gameworld but once it comes to e.g. placing things you're screwed.

[heinous_anus]

I'm inclined more and more to think (I don't spend too much...er..ANY...time on handhelds anymore) that the DS was more reactionary than anything to the possibility/likelihood/definite that Sony was eventually going to put out a handheld.  I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, that's just my sense of it all.  It really is the "third pillar" comment that makes me think that way; to me, "third pillar" means, "well, if it doesn't work out we've always got GBA...and then 'GBE'."

Honestly, the GBE's release will depend on the continued success (or unsuccess) of the other handhelds.  If PSP fails miserably in the US, and continues to perform not-so-well in Japan, Nintendo won't have to update diddly squat.  Look how long the original Game Boy lasted - grey, then colors, then pocket, then GBC.

Bingbang, I hear you on the games problem, with regards to the non-hype of Nintendo.  If DS and Revolution are so revolutionary, and are going to be ridiculously impossible to copy in terms of gameplay innovation, why not tout everything, all day long?  New Super Mario Bros. for DS, you say?  "Oh, by the way, here's 20,000 new screens of that game, a super cool commercial, and some other info that we've given to online sites/game mags"...is what Nintendo should be doing.

[PaLaDiN]

""Oh, by the way, here's 20,000 new screens of that game, a super cool commercial, and some other info that we've given to online sites/game mags"...is what Nintendo should be doing."

I can't help but feel Nintendo learned not to touch that oven after they did that with Wind Waker.

[bingbangboom]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
B
A problem with 3D on the DS is that the touchscreen is 2D so you'd need additional data to determine a point in space you are touching.

The touch screen can be used in 3D, It was used in Feel the Magic. Now that is a game that I think could have even been better with a few more months. Adding a muliplayer mode where you compete with others for the attention for the girl, more mini games, smoothing the graphics just a tad more. It is just too bad. Also the game suffered in sales ironically enough because parents didn't like the idea of their child looking at a girl in a bikini... who is white... with no features... but don't mind killing. Just weird.

Also pricing for alot of the games were just too high for software, especially rushed software. I mean a game like Zoo Keeper should be $20... not $40. Games sold over time, but if it were at a $30 tag instead, they would have sold better. In addition Nintendo could have included a coupon or some sort of sale with DS games like they did with the GC recently.

But this is back again to the main problem with Nintendo of America... its run by Nintendo of Japan. Simple as that. I even confronted a rep about it and she didn't know what to say after I told her everything they could have done. It is just a thing.

[joshnickerson]

Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
I can't help but feel Nintendo learned not to touch that oven after they did that with Wind Waker.

Nintendo can't win either way. If they don't put out any screens, people will say the game sucks because Nintendo won't show it. If they do put out any screens, people will say the game sucks because it looks bad.

[KDR_11k]

bingbangboom: But it somehow solves the problem of the third dimension by providing you with a plane or objects to interact with, right? Okay, cases where there's need to define a point in space that is not on some object or a reference plane are really are but games like Homeworld or Bontago need this. Most mouse based games solve this by having the cursor affect two dimensions and a reference plane that can be moved into the third (that's also how the 3d app Blender handles this). That's still rather cumbersome.

[bingbangboom]

There are ways around that though. They just havn't invested enough time into it. Nintendo also didn't really give alot of third parties enough time or they are just not interested in entering the DS market. I am sure enough going to see the number of GBA+ games raise when there is little software for the system. We will see. I personally though am iffy about the design. I just kinda get cramped up when having to use the buttons. But that is me. Especially for playing GBA games, it just feels weird. Good thing I still have my SP.

BTW, Astroboy is awesome.

[heinous_anus]

I really don't see how you can compare the Wind Waker situation to the DS, or ANY other Nintendo game.  Do you really think that by keeping quiet (not having any ads, screens, trailers) it would have helped in terms of GC and WW sales?  Weren't people disappointed because the game that ultimately came out was not the Zelda game originally touted for the Gamecube?  If that's the case, and people were disappointed for that reason, I don't think that being secretive would've helped anything at all.

[PaLaDiN]

"Do you really think that by keeping quiet (not having any ads, screens, trailers) it would have helped in terms of GC and WW sales? Weren't people disappointed because the game that ultimately came out was not the Zelda game originally touted for the Gamecube? If that's the case, and people were disappointed for that reason, I don't think that being secretive would've helped anything at all."

You misunderstand me. I was talking about the SW2000 Zelda Nintendo showed. You can't tell me that didn't come back and bite them in the ass. Wind Waker would have sold a lot better if Nintendo hadn't tickled the fancy of immature-graphics-whores-cum-armchair-developers beforehand.

[bingbangboom]

I understand both cases, but WW did sell very well for the Gamecube. Hardcore Zelda fans still bought it. Could they have gotten more with a different art style? I think so. But I also think Nintendo should have put forth the effort and included voice overs to give it that real animated touch. It was like an epic Disney movie with only grunts. With great voice acting, it can really flesh out alot of the characters emotions which was the main point about that game. The way a young Link delt with so many things. Grunts won't do. I want to hear Link talk. If they can change the entire art style, why not that too. I think it would have helped in the long run.