Author Topic: A Zelda, staring Zelda?  (Read 14220 times)

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Offline odifiend

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2004, 03:31:45 AM »
Dude just stop.
"I was hoping for such advancement with OoT, instead we got what could now be considered the standard Zelda story. A retelling of LttP, the standard, which is pretty much a retelling of the original game."
First of Zelda will always be a 'retelling of the original" in that you have an young boy or adolescant rising up to save Zelda and defeat Gannon.  I'm not exactly thrilled that the story line is always similiar but it never stops me from playing =P.  
Secondly, 3D is an art style.  It sounds like you are just bitching about stupidness.  You act like OoT did nothing.  Z-Targeting and fighting in 3D, Night/Day concept, TIME JUMPING CONCEPT, and the Advancement of the Ocarina seen in LttP.  It was the first game to take advantage of the bigger N64 cart and I think it did a damn good job.

The idea for the hawks is cool and use of cover is fine, but one thing that differentiates Zelda from MGS is setting.  I love MGS, but I don't really want Zelda to be MGS.  The adoptation of that system would force scenes to be choreographed and especially for something that minor, it would not be worth the death of the freedom in Zelda.  If wandered into Moblin territory or something and that was the opening- maybe.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2004, 05:19:41 AM »
"Where is the voice acting"

Your opinion fails...If you want voiceacting go play Final Fantasy and LEAVE MY ZELDA SERIES THE HELL ALONE!
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2004, 06:13:39 AM »
"Where is the voice acting, where is the voice recognition"

Arrgh. Brain hurts.  My two least favourite additions to gaming mentioned together as if they are a good idea.

Offline Hemmorrhoid

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2004, 09:42:21 AM »
seriously, voice acting is the last thing Zelda needs, really, Link just not supposed to talk, never
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Offline TMW

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2004, 08:56:33 AM »
I wouldn't mind playing as Zelda for once.  That's one thing I didn't like about WW...she starts out as this strong, active character, the captain of her own ship and actually doing something, and then she gets taken out of the picture completley and reduced to a simpering, stereotypical female!  "Stand back, little lady, it's the mens time to work now." I was so disappointed.

Hell, it's been established Zelda is practically a ninja (Woh-pah!).  Link could be off doing something somewhere else and Zelda has to take up the defense of the home front and all that.  It'd be a nice change of pace.  

And hey, if Peach can get her own game, why not Zelda?  

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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2004, 09:30:06 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: TMWshe starts out as this strong, active character, the captain of her own ship and actually doing something, and then she gets taken out of the picture completley and reduced to a simpering, stereotypical female!  "Stand back, little lady, it's the mens time to work now." I was so disappointed.


Well, she DID get to help a little with the final battle.


Offline Savior

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2004, 05:32:23 PM »
I really really hope Ganon isnt the last boss this time...  Mix it up a bit ... make a new end boss...


Ohh and Zelda playable? only if its Sheik...  
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2004, 06:03:38 PM »
I'd rather have Ganon than Vaati.

Or maybe they could combine their powers and become one superbadguy.
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Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2004, 07:48:04 PM »
In the zelda story I wrote for college ganon's son and the newest edition of link are playable.

Offline Morien

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2004, 09:47:10 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
seriously, voice acting is the last thing Zelda needs, really, Link just not supposed to talk, never


I don't think voice acting would be a bad idea, as long as it's done well. I mean it beats one sound clip being repeated over and over to let you know what their voice sounds like. Link doesn't talk in text, so there's no reason he should have voice work done. But the other characters could benefit with it. Instead of just having grunts, groans and text we could have grunts, groans, voice and text.

Offline Rancid Planet

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2004, 11:03:06 PM »
Nah, make them talk like in the Banjo Kazooie games.

"DOH DAH DAH DOH DOH"

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2004, 05:15:38 PM »
Ok, then let Link have a vocabulary the size of Navi's.

"HEY"

"WISTEN!"

"HELLO?!1"

Unfortunately, Link will only be able to say

"..."

"...Link..."

"..."
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Offline Rancid Planet

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2004, 10:06:30 PM »
Ah yes. I love a good burn on Navi's vocabulary. I used to turn down the volume on OoT because of her.

Offline nitsu niflheim

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2004, 03:14:00 AM »
The Zelda story I am still working on, has Zelda as the main character.
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Offline Nile Boogie

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2004, 06:05:07 AM »
The Gannondorf in The Wind Waker seemed to be evil yet conflicted. I won't spoil anything for those yet to finish the game but his dialogue did suggest to me he was more than he seemed. Kinda like Darth Vader. There is something more to his story yet to be uncoverd. Not to say that he should team up with Link on some fantasic epic, but maybe something along the lines of the ending to Super Metriod, or a scene from Pulp Fiction. Nothing too extreme... or maybe the drugs that we get in the Navy has really hurt my thinking.  
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2004, 07:20:26 AM »
I'm suggesting that Ganondorf and Link team up for an adventure before Ganondorf's turn to the dark side.

Every so many generations there must be a new Ganondorf born according to OoT.  Just like the Link bloodline continues, so does the Ganondorf bloodline.  I want a game in which there is a new Ganondorf as well as a new Link and Zelda.

At the same time I wouldn't mind a new Zelda in which the only character that is new is Link allowing for Ganon and Zelda to be more legend.  I like the magic of the characters being legendary and imortal as well as the idea of new generations.

There is tons of material within the Zelda universe.  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2004, 07:31:39 AM »
"Every so many generations there must be a new Ganondorf born according to OoT. Just like the Link bloodline continues, so does the Ganondorf bloodline."

Whoa, hold on...There's absolutely no proof in this yet...I will still hold to the belief that there is only one Ganon[dorf] until proven otherwise...And Ganondorf is naturally evil...He's not the kind of character that is good and then somehow turns bad...This isn't Star Wars, Ganon is supposed to be the epitome of evil, and him being good completely throws off that theme...
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Offline odifiend

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2004, 08:44:32 AM »
Link and Ganondorf should never team up, ever.  Ganon hatches a plan that gains him power and Link appears out of nowhere stops him.  That is Link's purpose.  There can't be a common interest.  They can't team up.

Bill? Caring about story and themes no less?
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2004, 09:39:38 AM »
I think the idea of Link and Ganon teaming up is dumb but I can think of one situation where it could work.  What if early in the game Ganon tricks Link into helping him?  He disguises himself and has you work with him to find some special artifact.  The artifact of course would be something very powerful that you wouldn't want to "fall into the wrong hands".  It would be like in Aladdin where Jafar gets Aladdin to help him by dressing up as that old man.  So the first bit of the game is collecting the three or so pieces of the artifact for Ganon in disguise.  Then Ganon reveals himself and takes over OoT style and you have to go through some other dungeons in order to retrieve the Triforce of Courage or whatever needed to defeat him.  Instant Zelda storyline and it can allow us to play as Ganon without it being blasphemy.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2004, 11:34:05 AM »
If you think about it, the very same thing happened in OoT, though without Link actually receiving instructions from Ganondorf...(Link recovering the 3 spiritual stones and opening the void between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm)
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2004, 11:55:00 AM »
Pure evil does not exist.  With pure evil there is no depth, no motivation, no thinking.  Just machine.

Ganon is not evil.  Even the most depraved humans in history like Hitler cannot be equated with powerful pure evil.  Hitler had to be defecated upon by his cousin to get it up and justified his actions with the gospels claiming the jews killed christ and caused the world woe.  Every character has multiple sides.  Without some good inside them, even if it is a delusion, to motivate and justify actions a person is not going to rise to the level of power of Hitler.  Evil comes out of the action of people thinking well.  Evil comes out of people who seek to do good usually, they believe they can control everything.  They believe they can fix the world, but what always happens is war, death, and despair.  The world won't be destroyed by the douche that wants to destroy it, it will be destroyed by the person who thinks they can save it.  

Vader doesn't hit a switch one day and turn evil, something had to happen to turn him to the dark side.  There is a damn good reason why Darth Vader is one of the best villains ever made, because he is a good guy.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2004, 12:09:59 PM »
"Pure evil does not exist. With pure evil there is no depth, no motivation, no thinking. Just machine."

Nemo we don't need some philosophy discussion here.  It's a GAME.  It's fiction.  So having a pure evil being is acceptable.  Pure evil beings are present in mythology so it's perfectly acceptable for Ganon to be pure evil.

What's next?  Have a sequel to Eternal Darkness where you play one of the elder gods?  There's no given explanation for their evil.  They just desire to destroy everything.  Or how about Sauron?  He wants to rule Middle Earth because he lusts for total domination and power.  There's no "well he seeked to do good initially" stuff there and it works.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2004, 02:29:40 PM »
When people would get the ring in the Tolkein series, they would envision their rule of middle earth.  But why want to rule?  There must be a motivation behind the want to rule.  People want to rule because they believe their vision beats the hell out of what is.  Pride in the idea that their soul is willing and flesh is weak, but with the ring their flesh will be made strong.  Unfortunately it makes even the strongest of souls weak and the pride shifts towards the flesh.  Suddenly they have the power, but not the will, instead they conquer to possess rather than to free.  The more believable the villain's argument, the insanity plea will only get you off 1 percent of the time, the easier it is for the audience to relate.  If the audience has some empathy for the villains actions then finally the villain is nolonger just a prop, the villain becomes a character on the same level as the others in the story.  That is why characters like Magneto and Darth Vader are so classic.  They aren't just the cut out prop character preaching to the heros before he circle saws them in half.

Just look at the source material for these Zelda games.  Before the Arthurian lore there was Beowulf.  Beowulf's first monster, Grendal is a memorable character not because of the horrible things he does.  Grendal is great because at the end of his fight with Beowulf he rips his own arm off to get away from Beowulf who has a hold of him.  The wound he inflicts upon himself is what kills him.  The character who was a mass killer and man eater showed fear of death, pain, loss of freedom, and much more with character depthening actions.



Look at Jaws.  The shark is an animal right.  An eating machine.  But that isn't scary, because real sharks are eating machines.  They don't think, they don't plot, they don't have malice.  But the shark in Jaws is more than animal.  It does what so few animals have ever done in the wild.  It kills and kills and kills and kills.  Not because it's what it does or must do to get by, but because it wants to.  It wants to kill another person.  We don't need a monolougue to tell us the shark wants to kill the three men on the boat.  Spielberg spells it out with action and he does it better than anyone.  Jaws is scary not just because of the way it is done or that its a shark.  Jaws is scary because behind those teeth and black emotionless eyes ticks the mind of a human.  That is what makes a monster.  

Even Satan is not ''evil.''  The character's sin was pride.  Pride got the greatest angel in heaven kicked out.  He wasn't eating babies.  He just realized he was better than everyone else.  After that the character is demonized and cast out.  What would you do?  What would you do if god gave you enough rope to hang yourself with, but not enough for your feet to touch the ground afterwards and you knew he knew beforehand.  Wouldn't you then try to destroy every consecutive creation.  But if the myths play out according to the rules, god creates Satan knowing Satan will have pride and wage war, knowing Satan would be cast out, knowing what he was going to create afterwards.  Thus the creation of Satan is for the purpose of causing the first man and woman to be cast out of Eden.  Not so he could have been the greatest angel.  God made him so great in the text for the purpose of creating this figure who would be capable of reasoning his sin and causing himself to be kicked out of heaven so there could be an enemy to prove god right.  So even Satan, the prince of darkness, is not evil, he simply flawed.  He was impatient and prideful and became so much more because of it.

 
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE:A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2004, 03:44:55 PM »
I'm glad to know that if I kill you, you'll understand.

Meanwhile, we're talking about a game that would not be better if the character didn't represent pure evil.

And I beg to differ about Darth Vader. He was awesome before he ever helped Luke. Finding out he was actually good just wussified him.

Rational depth and general wishy-washiness will only get you so far. The best villains are the ones that succeed in pissing you off while looking really cool at the same time. Just look at Kefka and Sephiroth and yes, Darth Vader.
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Offline odifiend

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RE: A Zelda, staring Zelda?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2004, 03:49:53 PM »
Even so I don't see the evil characters banding with the good characters in your analogies.  In the Zelda series, Ganondorf is from what I can see immortal and has likely been influenced to take power long before Link was born.  If Nintendo really wanted to flesh out Ganon as a character, Ganon would have to be the focus.  Link is not part of the equation.
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