Author Topic: LOZ: 2005  (Read 715482 times)

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Offline wandering

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2475 on: September 01, 2006, 03:45:43 PM »
It comes down to how you define 'gameplay', I guess.

Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Dyack being the director IS likely, and all the hush-hush with SK since E3 only strengthens that possibility...With Aonuma and Miyamoto over their shoulder, SK could get some well-deserved credit and respect...

mmm....I'm not so sure I agree.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2476 on: September 01, 2006, 04:49:18 PM »
lol

now don't go and dig my old posts, you stalker.

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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2477 on: September 01, 2006, 04:56:06 PM »
"On a side note, the thing I like about OOT's dungeons is that I actually don't enjoy playing through them that much. As kid, I dreaded going into a dungeon, just like Link would. And, conversely, I loved riding on a horse and going fishing, just like Link would. This is in contrast to most games, where the fun part is the stuff that would be horrible in real life."

Haha, yeah, I feel the same way a lot of the time.  Not for every dungeon, necessarily (I tend to feel comfortable in early dungeons, and brighter dungeons like the Wind Temple), but I really love that feeling of dread when it comes.

I also feel that everything else should compliment the gameplay.  Everything is a factor, of course.  Sound and music is often an important aspect of film, but it's not at the core of filmmaking.  The environment, graphics, and all that are important, but gameplay is at the highest mark on the heirarchy.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2478 on: September 01, 2006, 05:13:27 PM »
Hahaha, I feel like an idiot for thinking that...But that was before I realized that Dyack was just a burger-eating brown-noser...
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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2479 on: September 01, 2006, 05:16:01 PM »
Ahahah yeah he got fat lol
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Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2480 on: September 01, 2006, 06:01:48 PM »
he didn't just got fat, he was fat, got thin while working with Nintendo and go back to fat again, I tell you this industry is not healthy.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2481 on: September 01, 2006, 11:12:36 PM »
Just like J Allard. Fat, thin Fat.

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2482 on: September 01, 2006, 11:15:33 PM »
BTW, IGN Games of Fall 2006 says, "Twilight Princess will not only be bigger - a horse ride from one side of Hyrule to the next is rumored to take 45 real minutes"

45 minutes! teh huge!

Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2483 on: September 01, 2006, 11:41:02 PM »
teh boring!

now if there is a dungeon or town every riding minute I'll be happy.

Im being generous actually, a minute is a long time and can get boring easily, better if its close to 30 seconds (or less!) of distance between locations, of course thats whishful thinking, thats close to 100 locations, simply impossible.




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Offline Svevan

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2484 on: September 02, 2006, 10:59:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
Quote

Perhaps more people feel the same? There must be some scholarship or documentation on the perception of environments in games - to me it is more important than any "fun" I have while playing.
I'll have to stop you right there.. It's a game.. Analysing these things is great and all, but at the end of the day, to me at least, they are not what make games great. They add to the style, the presentation, the artistic side of things. They enhance the experience, sometimes to a great extent, and are definitely noteworthy. But the gameplay is always paramount. ... having fun is the reason I play games, and I don't want that to change. And I believe that if you don't play games for fun, then they are not for you.


Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
But if you apply the qualities of another medium to gaming, you're only holding back its potential.

...

Gaming is a visual, moving medium, but it's very different from film (or any other medium for that matter). Other mediums can compliment it in some way, but if you try to put the limitations of one medium into gaming, you're only going to limit it.


But what is fun?

Here's the American Heritage Dictionary's take:

fun n.  
1. A source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure.
2. Enjoyment; amusement: have fun at the beach.
3. Playful, often noisy, activity.

Here's another quote from IceCold:
Quote

If you value the "perception of environments" more than the joy you get by playing the game, you may be exploring a desert with few oases. It does make it all the more special when a game is rich in these features (like Zelda), but they should not be your primary concern.


Who's to say where I get my "joy" in playing the game? Why did Nintendo use a different graphical style for Wind Waker, and why was everyone up in arms about it? These things matter and they affect the "fun," if we are going to separate "fun" from every aspect of the game except the running and jumping.

Fun's an awful word. I can have fun doing something, but can I really isolate which part of it was fun and which was inspiring, tiring, emotional, relational, etc? I believe there is a narrow definition of fun and a broad one, and if we get straight which we're using I think you'll see we agree. The broad definition of fun is American Heritage's first one: "a source of enjoyment, amusement, or pleasure." The narrow meaning is either number 2 or 3. In my post, when I made the critical comment that a consistent game-world meant more to me than "fun," I was referring to the narrow definition. When playing a game, I see the gameplay "fun" as the basic physicality of Pong, Tetris, or Mario. In Banjo-Kazooie, this is flying or racing or running and jumping. This is only a fraction of the modern video game. The enjoyment of Banjo-Kazooie comes from a variety of things: collection and progression, graphical beauty, storyline, and humor. Each of these individual parts is not fun - the only one that comes close is collecting things and progressing through the game, which can be fun but it can also be tiresome; in Banjo-Tooie and DK64 it's exhausting and tedious, but these games still have value.

I refer to the actual "value" of a game as how much I "enjoyed" it, and this is I believe the broad definition of "fun." This means that if a game was tiresome in some way I can still consider it a good experience and walk away with a positive view of it. (Case in Point: Killer 7, a very un-fun game.) Some posters have commented that they view the dungeons of Zelda to be frightening, difficult, and perhaps even painful - how interesting that all who have said this considered it a positive quality! They had a reason to go into that dungeon, and I don't think it was "fun" in the narrow sense, but rather their enjoyment of the game-world, story, progression, etc. This amounts to pleasure in my mind, not fun. American Heritage doesn't see it the way I do, but I have always thought that fun was a specific type of pleasure, not just pleasure in general.

So I believe the game-world gives me my "joy" as much as the running and jumping does. Some people play only RPGs and how much "fun" do you think they're actually having? Final Fantasy VIII had a card game to break up all the random battles, cinematics, heavy-handed story telling, and stat-monitoring - without it, I'd dare say there wasn't an ounce of fun in the whole game, at least in the narrow sense. Personally, I have never played RPGs for their battles, though I know some people do.

Finally, an aside: you're right, I love movies, but I have no idea how they've entered into this discussion at all. My view of the game-world is based entirely on immersion, something a game can do more than a movie when the world is compelling enough. I do view games and movies in a similar way though: I don't separate the individual parts out and say that good "this" plus good "that" plus good "the other" equals good game. To me there must be a unifying whole: good graphics and a good environment without good gameplay can be frivolous, but it can also be enjoyable. In the same way, solid core gameplay with no active narrative or game-world to inhabit is "fun" in the Pong-Tetris sense, and therefore valuable. There's a reason why we don't average out the scores on PGC, and very few other sites do either: even if it were possible to correctly ascertain the actual numerical value of the graphics, control, and gameplay in a game, the mathematical average of them all would never be a correct assessment of the game's quality. A game must be more than the sum of its parts, otherwise we wouldn't value Metal Gear Solid, Doshin the Giant, or Chibi Robo.  

P.S. Hostile, where are you getting your BA?  
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Offline Kairon

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2485 on: September 03, 2006, 12:11:52 AM »
Hmmm... arguing semantics can make this really sticky, but I consider interacting with and appreciating a game's art style to be gameplay. Games aren't slideshows. Even the on-rails Pokemon Snap invited me to consider what's coming up, what I've already passed, and what could be hidden in the bushes right next to me, and then to act upon that information. And of course, the art in Wind Waker helped me to define my place in the game world, my sense of movement, weight, and physicality. Our reactions to, and interactions with, the visuals of a game are just part of what constitutes the larger sense of gameplay.

And of course, as a Miyamoto-ist... gameplay > everything.

In that sense, I am is quite content with supporting stylistic achievements like Killer 7 (or Cubivore) or technical accomplishments like Resident Evil 4 (or Conker's Bad Fur Day) because I can find ways to suggest that the visuals in these games helped develop an atmosphere conducive to their particular brand of gameplay.

It's much harder to make that same claim when looking at something like Baiten Kaitos.

Just like you refer to "value" as a broader more inclusive definition of "fun," I think that gameplay should be a more inclusive than just what goes on in your hands, it should also include what goes on in your head. Therefore, in the twisted logic of this Miyamoto fanatic, graphics are not more important than gameplay, graphics aren't even as important as gameplay. Graphics, for graphic's sake, aren't of ANY importance to videogames AT ALL!

To this fanboi, graphics are important only insofar as they serva as elements and facets of (this broader definiton of) gameplay.

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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2486 on: September 03, 2006, 11:28:16 AM »
Excellent points on the definition of fun, Svevan.  In regards to the whole film thing, I have no idea where that came from, I just saw IceCold mention it so I ran with it. :P

On the other hand, I did not specifically denote that gameplay is the necessary source of fun.  I merely pointed out that it's the central characteristic of game making.  It's what separates games from any other medium.  It doesn't need to be what provides fun in the game (I know the word game being in it implies such, but that's merely a reflection of its origins).  Certainly, that will often be the case, and it is most often the case with me (and people like Bill, Kairon, Mario, etc), but some games don't rely strictly on gameplay to stimulate enjoyment.
I don't see how anyone could find the gameplay in Final Fantasy fun.  But the story, the characters, and the scale of the game is what drives the player's enjoyment.
Killer 7 relies on its incredible story and style, and on the gameplay to a lesser extent.
MGS has a lot of gameplay, but it's also very "cinematic" (I hate using this term, because it's a BS term, because "cinematic" games don't reflect cinema just because they're more story driven.  They seldom ever reflect the principles of cinematography, editing, and such things).  Enjoyment again is derived from story.
Katamari Damacy is partially just about how quirky and off-the-wall it is.

So a game doesn't necessarily need to rely on gameplay to succeed, artistically or otherwise.  I'll always be of the opinion (based on personal preference and artistic standpoint) that the games with a primary focus on finely crafted gameplay will always be the best (a philosophy Nintendo generally seems to hold as well, which is part of the reason I like them so much), but that's just personal opinion, and isn't universal.
However, all of those games do have gameplay, and must to be considered games.  (Likewise, a recording of a theatrical performance is not a film, because it doesn't make effective use of camerawork and editing.) Gameplay is at the core of The Game, but it isn't necessarily the focus on every particular game.

See what I mean?

I'm actually double majoring in communications (film) and English, and I'm at a small liberal arts college, Centenary College.  If I go to graduate school, which is likely, I'll go someplace more directly oriented on film.
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Offline Svevan

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2487 on: September 03, 2006, 01:15:42 PM »
I see your point, Hostile, and I agree. Gameplay is what separates and defines games apart from other mediums - the "play" must exist, otherwise it isn't a game. Nintendo certainly focuses on gameplay more than a lot of other developers, for better or worse. If Nintendo were asked to make a Final Fantasy style RPG I think it would look a lot like Zelda.

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Our reactions to, and interactions with, the visuals of a game are just part of what constitutes the larger sense of gameplay.


I completely agree.  
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2488 on: September 05, 2006, 06:00:44 AM »
Woah, heavy topics here, and to think, all I have to add is...was the N64 version of Majora's Mask as buggy as the GameCube version?  I played the same three-day cycle twice last night and the frigging thing froze on me BOTH TIMES.  Thanks for stealing three hours of my life, stupid Termina.

I agree on the 45 minutes thing - that's not really a good thing unless the game is packed with tons of locations.  Although, I won't mind if the game has a really good warp system that opens up early on.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2489 on: September 05, 2006, 12:49:01 PM »
N64 MM had no trouble whatsoever.  Even during my 20-hour play session.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2490 on: September 05, 2006, 12:57:11 PM »
I never had any problems playing Majora's Mask on the Nintendo 64.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2491 on: September 05, 2006, 02:11:49 PM »
Except for the slow in frame rate I also didn't have any problems with MM. did the GC version have any slowdowns or was that fixed? Ive heard the problem is with the emulation of the expansion pack, I hope the game comes to the VC in perfect shape.

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Offline WalkingTheCow

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2492 on: September 06, 2006, 12:31:25 AM »
Look to Shadow of the Collosus for an example of a game that is made more "fun" because of its' visuals. Also. . . Shadow of the Collosus also shows us how vast expanses (such as those that may possibly be in Twilight Princess) can also be enjoyable. However that doesn't sound right for a Zelda game. I'm betting two things.

1) 45 minutes is an exaggeration. 25-30 minutes sounds a lot more reasonable.

2) That time includes navigation through more gameplay centered areas (like Zora River for example) and through and around many different places along the "45 minute" trek.  

That said, a gratuitouslly large Hyrule doesn't sound too bad to me.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2493 on: September 06, 2006, 06:01:04 AM »
Cool, I'm glad to hear the original had no problems.  I played again last night without any hitches, it seems like trying to complete too many sidequests at once screws it up.  I might buy the original version sometime.

Slowdown occurs in the GameCube version, I think I've heard that it's identical to the original in this respect.  Personally the slowdown hasn't bothered me too much, it doesn't seem to happen much in the dungeons, mostly in areas where you have a good view of a lot of objects like on the tree-filled part of the field or in certain parts of Clock Town.
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Offline EasyCure

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2494 on: September 06, 2006, 03:51:18 PM »
you reminded me something i've been wondering for awhile now. i have Oot for n64 and GC (both on the master quest disc and collectors edition disc) and both gc versions have the same differences that are not in the 64 version. one of them being the fire attack from Twinrova. one of the best effects IMO for Oot was when battling Twinrova and the fire attack consumes the ground. it looked amazing... unless you play it on the GC. it doesnt look as realistic to me. the other differenced i noticed between the gc versions and the 64 version is the blood that appears when link gives ganon the final blow. the gc version have green blood, but my 64 version is red.

i've read there are different versions of Oot for 64 (from reading up on glitches and things that can be done with action replay codes) so i was wondering if those two things i mentioned are from one of the later versions of the 64 game that were put onto the gc disc, or is it something changed specifically for the gc disc?
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Offline IceCold

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2495 on: September 06, 2006, 04:20:10 PM »
Quote

the gc version have green blood, but my 64 version is red.
Yeah, Nintendo changed that in the later 64 cartridges of OoT, so only the first batch has it. They also made some other adjustments, including changing the Fire Temple chanting music, and removing the crescent and star signs on some blocks..  
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Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2496 on: September 06, 2006, 06:39:42 PM »
I got the middle version, no chanting in the fire temple ( I download a sample and I feel cheated, it sounded so much better with the chanting), but I had the shield with the crecent and stars.

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Offline Kenology

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2497 on: September 09, 2006, 06:18:34 AM »
LOL! @ the recent debates goin' on here!  But I'll play a little catch up:

1).  45 real-time minutes from one end of the overworld to the other sounds delicious to me.  I doubt it'd get boring (like Wind Waker's sailing), but I'm sure you'll be able to warp eventually anyways.  Plus, the overworld is gonna be bursting at the seams with things to do, I'm sure.

2).  The N64 version of Majora's Mask played perfectly... the Gamecube version, which ran in emulation, was buggy as all hell.

3).  The choir on the "Fire Temple" theme in the first batch of OoT carts was said to be a true-blue sampled Islamic prayer.  The entire piece was brilliant.  But Nintendo yanked it out and tried to replicate it with a synth choir and it sounded terrible.  I shook my head nonstop while playing through the Fire Temple in Master Quest.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2498 on: September 09, 2006, 06:30:42 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
BTW, IGN Games of Fall 2006 says, "Twilight Princess will not only be bigger - a horse ride from one side of Hyrule to the next is rumored to take 45 real minutes"

45 minutes! teh huge!


What if your horse is just really slow?

Offline mantidor

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RE: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2499 on: September 09, 2006, 06:48:06 AM »
I don't see how is possible to get bored with long sailing but not bored with long horse riding. Seriously, is the same thing.

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