Topic: LOZ: 2005

[IceCold]

I have to agree with Kairon, and I have always disagreed with Hostile concerning A Link to the Past..

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Hey.

The only true "discovery" of the Zelda series is the first cave in the first game where you acquire your MASTER WOOD.  You walk right in, and gain the tool to allow you to be begin your adventure.  Your only input?  THE D-PAD.

[GENERALIZATION] EVERYTHING AFTERWARDS in the series comes as a reward via players' effort & thoughtfulness (combat & puzzles, not necessarily analogous).

Hell, Mario provided his own set of discoveries with the first drain pipes and subterranean levels.

'Super Mario' *JUMPS* to advance.  'Zelda' *UNLOCKS DOORS* to advance.  Unlocking doors IS the thing we DO.

Why has the exploration been so critical and cherished?  Cuz of what we find on the other side (combat & puzzles).  What, as far as game mechanics go, gives us the satisfaction, ability and motivation to explore further?  Combat & puzzles.

Exploration isn't the SINGLE DEFINITIVE element of Zelda.  That's too narrow.  It is part of the TRIFORCE of the GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE that Zelda is.

Combat (Power)
Puzzles (Wisdom)
Exploration; motivation and curiosity to venture (Courage)

There's locked doors, and there's keys.  The doors have taken many forms and the keys have taken many forms throughout the series (whether being physical keys or combat or puzzles).  The door-key relationship is symbolic of what the series asks of players.  And it apparently isn't about open holes and free weapons anymore.  To unlock the door, you must supply the key.  Discovery is a REWARD -- "Please insert EFFORT and take your PRIZE from the bottom tray.  Have a nice day and come again."

^  You have MIYAMOTO to THANK for that TREND.  

[ShyGuy]

Pro666 is on a roll of pure pwnage today.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I had Jack Daniels and Coke last night.  Didn't plan on it.  But there.

[KnowsNothing]

Okay, LA didn't define what Zelda *is*, but what it should be =p

The sense of exporation and discovery is very present in LA, but the added depth of character interaction, story, and miniquests help create a more believable and captivating world.  All of those things help create a batter world for you to explore, making those things that define a Zelda game that much more exciting.  LA is Miyamoto escaping from the picnic and finding the cavern, the original Zelda was Miyamoto living in the woods his whole life and then finding a cavern IT MAKES SENSE.  One is more exciting!  Moving from a town into a dungeon provides a needed contrast: the deeper you go, the more dangerous and exciting it gets because you're moving further and further from familiarity.

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT

Also.

The only true "discovery" of the Zelda series is the first cave in the first game where you acquire your MASTER WOOD. You walk right in, and gain the tool to allow you to be begin your adventure. Your only input? THE D-PAD.

[GENERALIZATION] EVERYTHING AFTERWARDS in the series comes as a reward via players' effort & thoughtfulness (combat & puzzles, not necessarily analogous).

Hell, Mario provided his own set of discoveries with the first drain pipes and subterranean levels.

'Super Mario' *JUMPS* to advance. 'Zelda' *UNLOCKS DOORS* to advance. Unlocking doors IS the thing we DO.

Why has the exploration been so critical and cherished? Cuz of what we find on the other side (combat & puzzles). What, as far as game mechanics go, gives us the satisfaction, ability and motivation to explore further? Combat & puzzles.

Exploration isn't the SINGLE DEFINITIVE element of Zelda. That's too narrow. It is part of the TRIFORCE of the GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE that Zelda is.

Combat (Power)
Puzzles (Wisdom)
Exploration; motivation and curiosity to venture (Courage)

There's locked doors, and there's keys. The doors have taken many forms and the keys have taken many forms throughout the series (whether being physical keys or combat or puzzles). The door-key relationship is symbolic of what the series asks of players. And it apparently isn't about open holes and free weapons anymore. To unlock the door, you must supply the key. Discovery is a REWARD -- "Please insert EFFORT and take your PRIZE from the bottom tray. Have a nice day and come again."

^ You have MIYAMOTO to THANK for that TREND.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Hey I think Svevan posted the first ever PLANETWHIINECUBE editorial!

Does this mean the name announcement is coming soon!>?

[couchmonkey]

I like Pro's post on what makes Zelda good.  However, I have to agree with Hostile on the first two Zeldas.  A Link to the Past I liked.  The first two still have their charms, but I must admit they haven't aged well.

Edit: clarification r us.

[stevey]

is it me or is every zelda fanboy starting to go insane?

TP > LttP > LA > MM > LoZ > OoT ~ WW > MC > OoS = OoA > FS > LoZ 2

"Miyamoto!>?!?!?!? AKA GOD HIMSELF?!?!?!?!"

Yes, he a god but isn't the only one responsible in making a zelda or coming up with the ideas. Their a whole team behind the making of zelda just only miyamoto.  

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: stevey
TP > LttP > LA > MM > LoZ > OoT ~ WW > MC > OoS = OoA > FS > LoZ 2

LoZ 2 doesn't exist, I think you meant TAoL (The Adventure of Link). How can you say FS is better than TAoL?! TAoL is one of the most exciting Zelda games, much better than that FS mulitplayer crap.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Zelda fanboys are already insane.  You just need to give them a reason to show it.

Zelda fangirls are severely under-represented here.

[Svevan]

Funny, Pro, I always figured you looked exactly like Daisy.

[Athrun Zala]

Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
Funny, Pro, I always figured you looked exactly like Daisy.

wait, Pro DOESN'T look like Daisy??

[TMW]

I personally know three Zelda fangirls.

WHUT.

[Hostile Creation]

Oh wow.  Hold on, let me get my bearings.  This thread has been dead for so long I didn't expect such a response.

Quote
Zelda is about the emotion of discovery, the sense of adventure, that first time when Miyamoto stumbled upon a limestone cavern as a child during his family picnics! ZELDA is about recreating that real, emotional, human exploration of the world around you! Zelda is NOT about creating an epic to bowl us over, it's about creating human spaces that we fill and are absorbed into, not about things we witness, but things we DO!

I absolutely agree.  This is my primary reason for loving Zelda, and it's a feeling I pursue in every day of my life as well.  It's the best and most compelling aspect of the Zelda series, and you've explained it very well.
Regardless, a feeling is only a feeling: it doesn't make a game.  You can write a novel about the depth of human sadness, and explore it at every level, and still have it be a god-awful novel.  The emotion is what drives Zelda, but it is a creative product, a craft, and a great many elements must contribute to this, and all of these elements will affect this notion of adventure, make it stronger of weaker.  Zelda is about that feeling, sure, but it's also a game, and therefore relies on its qualities as a game to provoke this emotion in the player.
Link's Awakening affected me in this way more than any other Zelda game, and that's why it's my favorite.  And yes, it has something to do with my personal experience playing the game, and it's a matter of taste and preference, but it's also just how skillfully and artfully the game was crafted.

Quote
EVERYTHING PRO SAID

Incredibly well put.  I agree wholeheartedly with his Triforce of Zelda post.
(By the way, I love Majora's Mask, and it's in my top three favorites, but it felt like the cheated out of the primary plot too much for the sideplots, or almost as if the main quest was made up of side plots)

Knowsnothing also made some good points.

Quote
Zelda is NOT Final Fantasy with swordfighting, NOT an action-rpg, it is ZELDA. It IS the magic of a whole new world just around a corner.

That's the exact reason I'm not as into A Link to the Past.  Mind you, I like that game, it just feels too action-oriented, or dungeon-oriented, and it doesn't capture for me in the same capacity the beauty of a Zelda game, like Wind Waker or Majora's Mask or OoT or Link's Awakening does.

[Kairon]

Hmmm...

My definition of "Exploration" and "Discovery" is inclusive. That's why I can't understand what you're saying.

I'm still exploring when I have to solve a puzzle: I need to explore the world around me and my tools and abilities when I need to find a key or cross a gap or overcome some obstacle. Likewise, enemies make force me to take advantage of my environment and my abilities in a like manner. Combat is really just a dynamic form of a puzzle.

Given that I include problem solving (using a lantern/torch to light up dark areas, much as one would do in a limestone cavern) and combat (fending off bats, or keese if you will) in exploration, I can't see the weight in Pro's arguments. Problem solving IS a part of exploration, it is part and parcel to the experience. Exploration isn't simply seeing new things, but gaining knowledge of how to get there through tools and your own abilities.

I mean, when a kid catches a glimpse through some trees of a rock outcropping at a park and decides to climb to the top, needing to solve navigational puzzles, exert physical activity, and take bounding leaps in order to get to the top of some place in the distance... that's all exploration!

Ah, but throw in Final Fantasy and we're not talking about my kind of exploration anymore. When Miyamoto discovered that cave it was a completely solitary experience, it was a secret(tell nobody), it was something only he knew about at that point in time. Other people bring in other factors that completely distract from that child-like sense of ego-centric wonder and amazement.

All of a sudden, it's not about discovery and exploration, but human psychology and interaction. It's not about stretching forth your sense of self to fill and become one with the world around you, but molding yourself to fit into social mores. It becomes not about how to explore the world around you, but how to deal with other people's objectives and agendas.

My belief is that Zelda, Miyamoto's Zelda, is that sense of solitary exploration. It isn't about a storyline, or epics, or npcs or characters or background. It isn't about all these things that we sprinkle on top of our lives to give them meaning and definition. Miyamoto's Zelda, and many of Miyamoto's games, are about singular experiences that are almost child-like, almost rawly emotional in their sense of purity, baseness, innocence, and ability to appeal to everyone.

In this sense, Miyamoto's works almost seem to have the emotional core that Miyazaki's works do.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Hostile Creation]

I agree entirely with everything you've just said.  But I don't suppose you were arguing my point in that post.

One thing I love about the Zelda games, including Link's Awakening, is that Link doesn't get any recognition for what he does.  In many instances he saves the world (in Link's Awakening, his entire adventure leads to him simply waking something up), and either no one recognizes it or he ends up alone in the end (in OoT, he restores the world to a time before it went wrong, in MM he saves everything but ends up alone in his home world).
This doesn't really have much to do with anything.  It's just that, as a child, if I had an adventure by myself no one could appreciate it but me, and no one could ever understand what I'd been through.  It would seem insignificant to them.
I dunno.  Random musing.  It's an interesting dimension to the complex depth of emotions in Zelda, and in some capacity I can relate to it.

[Kairon]

Yeah, I can't argue with you anymore LOL. My definition of exploration is different from yours, and I don't seperate combat from puzzles from exploration. All those game mechanics, to me, only exist to communicate the theme of exploration. To me, a Zelda game with different game mechanics would still be Zelda. I'd even accept a text-adventure Zelda, a Zelda FPS... if somehow it communicated those themes as fully and as seamlessly as the ones I love do.

Hmm... I've got a mindset that will be very receptive for this new Wii Zelda that will be unlike the ones before it!

But as for recognition... My totally amatuer opinion on that whole recognition thing from the standpoint of someone who's not AT ALL a psychology major is...umm...

I think that as a child, finding and developing your own identity is a big thing. This is why you have imaginary friends that only YOU can understand, why you have hiding places which you as a child can fill and be safe/powerful in: as a child you're creating or finding your own domains in which to explore and develop your abilities.

I don't think that young, innocent children care about recognition. That's an adult thing, a complex interpersonal society thing. That's not bad, but as a child you just DO things, fun comes naturally to you. It's much more intuitive for young'uns to do what they feel is fun than to have other's reactions in mind as an end result.

Besides, would Link be so much of a hero if he did things for the recognition? Link's an innocent, he just does things because he intuitively knows right from wrong. And I think that this innocence is essential to recreating the emotions that Miyamoto made Zelda to inspire in us. As an epic, Zelda's simplicity helps to speak to that part in us which is still the child that wants to run around the house, crawl under beds, climb dressers and hide under the blankets, all because we just want to have fun and nothing else.

*note: not that little kids aren't socially manipulative. Studies show that even babies are aware of how to manipulate others. But even in this I believe they can be classified as innocents, because they are still exploring the world and their abilities to affect it, and they have no concept of the consequences of their actions except for themselves. Odd that ego-centricism is a definition of innocence though.*

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[wandering]

Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan

This is a rough topic for me because I believe so much in authorial intent and directorial control when it comes to the cinema, but for video games I truly believe it is something closer to group art, similar to how Pixar makes movies.

I tend to think most movies are group art. Example: In Silence of the Lambs, the director wanted Hannibal Lector, in his first appearence on-screen, to be wearing baggy clothing, leaning against the side of the cell, and looking away from Clarice. Anthony Hopkins had a different idea.

Anway. Zelda. We're all in agreement that OOT is not only the best Zelda game, but the best videogame ever created, right? Good.  

[Svevan]

No to both points.

[Kairon]

Well... you're entitled to your

MFUEHIKNLKMDWANDRIHWNU&RGGGRHGDW{KFDWjGJRkggruryugugrugurugrugrugrugurgrlglgjrllrulguglerugrlgur

...opinion.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Hostile Creation]

Mischief Makers is better than Ocarina of Time.  Certainly has much more replay value.

[Smoke39]

Deus Ex is at least as good as OOT.

[IceCold]

Superman 64 is BETTER than OoT..

[Kairon]

All bow to the original OoT... the one! The only!

ET!!!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Svevan]

Hey, I'm off topic!

I prefer Banjo Kazooie to OoT, but not MM or WW. Banjo-Tooie also holds a soft spot, but I never owned it - I borrowed Jonny's copy for an extended period and got a solid halfway through it before I realized that to complete the game I would have to continue playing it for the rest of my life. So I stopped, gave it back to him, some 6 years later I realized I LOVE ALL BANJO GAMES and bought it.

The similarity between Banjo and Zelda (back on topic) is that both take place in "complete" worlds that visually feel alive. Zelda can be even more powerful than a Banjo game because of its story and emotional depth, but since a Zelda game must fulfill the typical architecture for a town or dungeon, the individual areas do not spring to life as the levels and overworld in the Banjo games do. Click Clock Wood is a masterpiece of level design - it feels alive and the passing of the seasons helps reinforce emotionally our connection with the world. By the time we transform into a bee and fly around the massive trunk, we find ourselves familiar with the level and one with it. (I felt similarly about the sea in Wind Waker.) However, in Zelda games, we must work against a dungeon to "solve" it. Banjo (read: platform) games are based on harmony while Zelda (adventure) games are based on dissonance.

I suppose this is why I never liked dungeons in a Zelda game: they take you away from the natural world created by the game. A dungeon is a highly artificial gameplay device - the levels in Banjo games do not feel separate from the overworld since they do not differ in form. In a visual and emotional sense, there is no distinction between Clanker's Cavern and Grunty's Lair. In contrast, the difference between Hyrule Field and the Fire Temple is great.