Topic: Complexity...(still not enough buttons?)

[eljefe]

Before we had more info on the controller for Wii, there were lively discussions and valid concerns expressed regarding the placement and amount of buttons.

In light of the DUAL MOTION DETECTION capability that was confirmed yesterday, have those who were worried that there were too few buttons for deep control schemes changed there minds?

[BigJim]

Not really. A different way to play still doesn't mean it's better. Replacing buttons with motions doesn't excite me, just as poking a screen with a little stick didn't excite me. It's just different.

The controller is still unproven, AFAIC, until we can play some actual games that prove it's better.

[Ian Sane]

My concern was always that digital buttons and motion gestures have different pros and cons and thus are better suited for different functions.  Motion control is not a valid replacement for the precision of a button press.  So having dual motion detection makes no difference.  The issue isn't a lack of general input methods but a lack of very specific types of input methods.

[Hostile Creation]

I think buttons have an immediacy to them that motion detecting is maybe a split second behind.  Aside from that, it doesn't have many advantages.   I think Wii needs to reinvent how games are played, I don't think relying on past technology is necessarily the way to do that.
But like the others, I have to wait and reserve judgement for sure.

[trip1eX]

This is just great news.  The beauty of it is that it doesn't give the controller a more complicated appearance.  The gesturing technology will do what buttons do and any concern there is only a concern for the haters.  

The Madden game sounds sweet.  Juking left/right on the nunchuk to juke left/right in the game?  Nothing more intuitive than that.  

[pudu]

I agree that it won't be as accurate because moving your finger to turn a digital signal on or off is basically as fast and accurate as it can get.  I do, however, think that it can make things more intuitive and perhaps faster in a different way if you don't have to think as long before doing the motion.  For example, as Trip1eX said, in Madden they are planning to use the analog to control the juking by simply moving it left or right.  I know that in games like madden, which often like to use all of the 16 or so buttons on the PS2 controller, can get very confusing and I often froze and couln't remember what buttons what when I needed to most.  Knowing that when someone comes at me all I have to do is react by moving the analog attachment in the dirrection I want to go is pretty cool.  It makes me think even my dad might be able to control it in this fashion.

[Edfishy]

I completely agree with the idea of dual motion, and was a little worried that Nintendo wasn't going to include it.  I'm not quite sure how it would play out, but in first person shooters, it would be great if you could do something like tilt the Nunchuck to lean around a corner,  simply move the Nunchuck up in the air to denote a jump, or put it down low to go into a prone position.

Cool stuff if you ask me.

[denjet78]

What I find interesting is all the people saying things akin to how motion sensing isn't as discrete as pushing a button.

I didn't realize that we all lived our lives via controller. That every time we wanted to do something we just pressed a button and it magically happened.

Buttons, as some of you seem to be so in love with, are a limitation. One which has run it's course. I see people all the time who are absolutely TERRIFIED of technology because it brings new and it brings different and they just don't know what to make of that. So instead of trying to make sense of it they grab their pitchforks and their torches and run the poor thing down just so they can string it up and slaughter it because it isn't what they already know.

I remember as a kid, playing super hero or explorer, before I discovered video games. I remember running and jumping, swinging my arms around to cast a spell or mach sword fighting with sticks. When someone shot you, "BANG!", you were dead and you feel to the ground, that is if you weren't busy arguing about how your friend had actually missed you "by a mile! I swear!"

I don't remember pushing any buttons though.

If motion sensing had been possible way back when video games were first taking off, the button would have been squashed before it even got a chance. Compared to the Wii's controller, buttons are practically archaic! Get off your high horses where all you have to do is sit back and push buttons and actually start "playing" again. Video games are afterall, games. Or have some of you out there forgotten what it means to have fun?

[AnyoneEB]

The problem is that a game cannot do anything major with a slight movement of the controller because it could just be the gamer not keeping his hand perfectly steady. Pressing a button is a very slight motion, but it has resistance, so it is reasonable to assume that the button press is not accidental.

I agree that the motion controls could be quite useful for many things like, as you describe, Lost Magic Wii (Lost Magic is the DS game where you draw runes on the touch pad to cast spells) where you use the remote and/or nunchuk as magic wand(s). I guess we will see how much developers are able to use motion instead of buttons, but the technology is not exactly VR with full movement sensing, and movement controls for some actions might make sense but not be fun. I am quite interested to see how/if SSB:Wii works with motion sensing.

[Hostile Creation]

Unless you have palsy, I really don't see a steady hand being a problem.  I can keep my hand virtually motionless.
And if you have palsy, playing normal games is probably ridiculously hard enough.

[ruby_onix]

Quote
Originally posted by: eljefe
In light of the DUAL MOTION DETECTION capability that was confirmed yesterday, have those who were worried that there were too few buttons for deep control schemes changed there minds?

I think that 3D space control has the potential to be really amazing. But "a D-pad, a button, and a trigger" is not an adequate button layout. And the dual triggers on the analog nunchuck just confuse the setup further.

And until we get controllers that are gloves with 3D space control sensors in the fingertips and knuckles, we're going to need buttons, because otherwise we'd just be waving around the stumps of our virtually-amputated handless arms.

So as amazing as 3D space control might be, it still isn't a "substitute" for a good button layout. Having dual 3D space control is twice as awesome (and I've endorsed the idea of dual revmotes for quite a while), but it doesn't affect the underlying issue, IMO.

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
The problem is that a game cannot do anything major with a slight movement of the controller because it could just be the gamer not keeping his hand perfectly steady. Pressing a button is a very slight motion, but it has resistance, so it is reasonable to assume that the button press is not accidental.

I agree that the motion controls could be quite useful for many things like, as you describe, Lost Magic Wii (Lost Magic is the DS game where you draw runes on the touch pad to cast spells) where you use the remote and/or nunchuk as magic wand(s). I guess we will see how much developers are able to use motion instead of buttons, but the technology is not exactly VR with full movement sensing, and movement controls for some actions might make sense but not be fun. I am quite interested to see how/if SSB:Wii works with motion sensing.

Actually, the problem is that you're still thinking in terms of existing game steriotypes. You're too busy worrying about what you "think" you're loosing to realize what you're actually gaining. Gaming has been stuck in a box since it was first invented. Now depending on how you want to look at it that box has either grown substantially or been completely obliterated.

The first video games systems had how many buttons? One? If they had any at all that is. I remember playing with an old Pong style unit that only had a slider. But now look at modern controllers. Anologue buttons, dual anologue sticks, as well as face and shoulder buttons out the wazoo. It's all become so complicated and dedicated.

And now the paradigme is shifting.

No longer are we gods relegated to controlling others like puppets. Now we can actually begin to step into those people and live their lives. Sure, the technology isn't going to be perfect and it's going to be limited. It's going to be until someone invents the matrix. But it's there now. It's workable. It's useable now. Don't let your previous predjudices toward buttons cloud your vision of what's comming.

And why the hell am I still hearing whinning about "OMG! I'm actually going to have to move my arms?" If this doesn't stop RIGHT NOW I'm going to have to slap each and every one of you. These are the kinds of people who, if Nintendo had invented a holodeck, would be whinning because they wouldn't be able to plug a controller in and just sit back and play. I mean, they'd actually have to get up and DO things? What's up with that?

Are gamers really that lazy?

I suppose I have my own predjudices as well though, seeing as this is where I've been dreaming that gaming would go ever since I got my first NES. And I can see the future, a better future, where controls won't be limited to a device we hold in our hands. Where I'll actually get to play again, feel my heart beat as I jump out of the way of an attacking Stalfos and then swing around just in time to catch him with his guard down.

I mean, why else do we play these games? To escape reality? To get the chance to be someone else even if ever so briefly? Someone through who we can live the greatest of adventures while at the same time still being safe and sound in our livingrooms? Wouldn't you think that anything that could bring us closer to that experience would be exhaulted to the heavens?

Judging by the reations I'm still seeing to the Wii's controller, I guess not.

[Edfishy]

I can click a mouse button for over eight hours a day playing Diablo II, but you couldn't make me tap a table with such relentlessness and for so long if my life depended on it.  Why?  Because I'd be thinking about how stupid it is to be tapping the table, rather than when you're playing a game, you're concentrating on what needs to be done to make your character to respond.  You forget all about your physical actions, and strains as well.

[Ceric]

Why yes.  I am actually just that lazy.  

One of the reasons I play videogames is because I can't do physical activities up to par with everyone else.  Also I like a good story with good hooks.  Also I find it a better financial investment.  1 40 hours worth of entertainment for only 10 hours or less worth of work (considers which job).  I also don't have to worry to much about irrecoverable damage to myself and I can hear when it's time for supper.

Oh, and I think that Developers will adapt.  Always do.  Veterans have had some weirder things tossed there way, Virtual Boy.  Which reminds me.  I hope Virtual Boy makes it to the VC.  Teleboxer, Mario Crash, and the original Mario Tennis.  I like to play those again.  In full red glory.  Maybe I 'll get lucky and there put them in color.

[wandering]

Quote
I didn't realize that we all lived our lives via controller. That every time we wanted to do something we just pressed a button and it magically happened.

Haven't you ever watched the Jetsons? Buttons are the FUTURE.

I won't be able to judge if there are enough buttons until I get my hands on the controller...tho I imagine that there won't be a problem. There's no objective measure for how many buttons should be on a console...the Jaguar had way more than the cube but that didn't mean it was any better. The Wii has bunches of buttons and sticks and things, and I haven't been able to think of a game that wouldn't at least work with the nunchaku + wiimote.  

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering

Haven't you ever watched the Jetsons? Buttons are the FUTURE.

Um... actually, I think The Flintstones are the future after Iran, with China's backing, starts WWIII and wipes most of humanity as well as our technology off the face of the earth.

Besides, you'd rather drive one of those nasy bubble cars?

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Why yes.  I am actually just that lazy.  

One of the reasons I play videogames is because I can't do physical activities up to par with everyone else.  Also I like a good story with good hooks.  Also I find it a better financial investment.  1 40 hours worth of entertainment for only 10 hours or less worth of work (considers which job).  I also don't have to worry to much about irrecoverable damage to myself and I can hear when it's time for supper.

*sigh*

You are such a lost cause it's not even funny.  

[Hostile Creation]

I'd have to agree on that point.

[Artimus]

If you don't like change, no amount of buttons will make you like the Wiimote.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I do find it a bit funny that buttons are the main issue people have with it, heck in the SNES days they had 4 face buttons and 2 shoulder, and seldom were all of them used. With the Wii mote we have a trigger button, front button, control pad (which will likely be used alot in place of buttons), 2 shoulder buttons on the nunchuck (not sure if there is a button on the back). Not to mention the A and B buttons towards the bottom, which could be used for item selection (Probaly not much more use besides that though) so that makes 10 right there, the Xbox 360 controller has what? 12 buttons if you count its control pad? I guess you could also count the digital sticks too since they can be pressed in. Really though even with that the gap is not that big, and the motion controls can easily be implemented without frustration to make up that small gap in total buttons.

[Smash_Brother]

I was never concerned about buttons, especially with the shell likely being included with the controller.

Furthermore, buttons are being replaced with motion, like in Madden, where you throw a football with motion instead of a button, and that IS more intuitive (and an excellent argument for the wrist strap for the controller...).

[GoldenPhoenix]

I really hope they do have a wrist strap too, I just hope that isn't the final big revelation!

[EasyCure]

i say they release a a powerglove+wrist strap so your whole arm looks super cool while waving the Wii-wand around

oh and to anyone who complains about muscle strain and fatigue becuase you'll be waving your arms around, i have two things to say:

1. you'll most likely be waving your arms around wildly soley if you choose too. any interview you read where somone has actually testd the wii-wand/wii-mote has said it is accurate and you can control everything with a flick of the wrist.

which brings me to my second point.

2. you know that thing you do every now and again after a hot polygon model appears on some game like bmxXXX or DoA; volley ball, or rumble roses? well yeah, your wrist is plenty strong to hold a wand for a few hours of play; hell we're ALL used quick wrist movements;-)

[GoldenPhoenix]

You know Easy, if us Wii gamers are forced to move our arms around we will probaly be the strongest user base on any console. That means when someone calls us a "wii-ner" they will be hanging on top of a flag pole by their shorts.