Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 12:21:26 AM
Title: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 12:21:26 AM
Honestly, I don't think I've ever been more annoyed with the Internet as a whole as I've been for the last week. If I read one more thing about how Nintendo is stupid and needs to die a horrible death, or how stupid their E3 was, or how the Wii U's controller is dumb etc., I'm gonna blow a gasket. I always had a feeling that the Internet was the vocal minority compared to everyone else, and now I have my proof.
I mean, at my school (which mostly has a population of gamers who own PS3's and 360's and use them only for CoD or Gears of War) they were excited and impressed by the Wii U. I'm sure this isn't much different in other parts of the country and world.
I don't care how bad the E3 was. I don't care that the 3DS Software Conference didn't show any new games. No one besides Nintendo know what's going on with the Wii U. The next two years will decide the fate of the Wii U and Nintendo as a whole. Instead of mindlessly bitching about it, I say that we calm our tits and play the waiting game.
(Disclaimer in case Insanolord decides to bitch: this wasn't completely directed towards the members of the NWR forums. Many of you have good points in why Nintendo failed this year. I have no other place of putting this so I decided to post it on these forums.)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: bustin98 on June 09, 2012, 12:24:24 AM
I've noticed people get banned from gaf for bitching about bitching. Aside from making a big post on Facebook, this may be as safe a place as any.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 09, 2012, 12:33:13 AM
I've noticed people get banned from gaf for bitching about bitching. Aside from making a big post on Facebook, this may be as safe a place as any.
Really? Wow. I mean, as much as I may disagree with someone and as much as I may be annoyed with their particular view point regarding Wii U/E3/etc., I wouldn't ban anyone for "bitching" about it unless they were way, way over the top or made some pretty nasty personal attacks against other forum members in their rant.
Did the banned users go over the top or does GAF just have more stringent rules on user conduct?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 09, 2012, 12:38:18 AM
I fully embrace the idea that Nintendo needs to be critiqued, evaluated, and called out when they don't meet expectations or make other sorts of mistakes.
But geez... I'm right there with you Oblivion. I can't... some people...the internet... the amount of out-of-nowhere blindsiding negative energy... GAAHHHHH. I don't know, maybe I'm just too sensitive, maybe I just don't appreciate that wild knee-jerk emotional swings are how some people operate but... GAAAAAAHHHH. Pikmin 3. Mario. Two Controllers. Mass Effect 3. And even more!!! This may not live up to our "perfect" fantasies, but we have to live in the real world where the majority of human being are fighting tooth and nail just to get to "good enough." I'm still getting a Wii U at launch.
. .. ...
But no Animal Crossing 3DS this year? THAT people have a right to complain about. I bought a 3DS for that game... T-T
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 09, 2012, 12:41:23 AM
I don't mind the act of complaining. Everyone complains. In some cases, it can even be constructive criticism. When you think about it, anything that's not a positive comment about something is a complaint. How many people make neutral comments about something? When New Super Mario Bros. 2 was announced, no one said, "This is a game." And even some neutral comments are construed negatively.
Rather, it's what people complain about that I find odd. Then, this is how I feel: (http://i.imgur.com/6dnAA.jpg)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 09, 2012, 01:01:26 AM
Dissent is the highest form of Fanboyism. So don't tell me to "love it or leave it".
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: bustin98 on June 09, 2012, 01:02:21 AM
I've noticed people get banned from gaf for bitching about bitching. Aside from making a big post on Facebook, this may be as safe a place as any.
Really? Wow. I mean, as much as I may disagree with someone and as much as I may be annoyed with their particular view point regarding Wii U/E3/etc., I wouldn't ban anyone for "bitching" about it unless they were way, way over the top or made some pretty nasty personal attacks against other forum members in their rant.
Did the banned users go over the top or does GAF just have more stringent rules on user conduct?
They are very stringent. They will often times look for any excuse to get rid of someone, as there is a waiting list to get accepted into the forums. At least I had to wait like 6 months before I was accepted. And I don't even post...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 01:09:20 AM
Dissent is the highest form of Fanboyism. So don't tell me to "love it or leave it".
I had a feeling that someone would accuse me of being a fanboy. Let me tell you something: I am not a fanboy. I've only ever owned one Nintendo system: The Wii. I've owned quite a bit more handhelds, but that's it. And I only own about five games for those consoles/handhelds. Now, let me look at my Sony collection...ah! I see about 30 games...hm...I wonder which company I'm more of a fanboy over, hm?
No. It's more likely that I like rooting for the underdog and that it takes a truly transparent person to notice the fact that while all three companies had fairly shitty conferences this year, Nintendo is the one that all internet commenters and news outlets concentrate on.
Nice try, bub. (EDIT: Oops. Not what he meant. Oh well.)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 09, 2012, 01:10:06 AM
Dissent is the highest form of Fanboyism. So don't tell me to "love it or leave it".
Dissent I'm fine with. Dissent I love. But roiling negative emotional outbursts? They're like kryptonite to me, they actually evoke a physical response from me. I... guess that's more my problem instead of anyone else's, but still.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 01:11:39 AM
Your avatar seems very fitting right now.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 09, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
I had a feeling that someone would accuse me of being a fanboy.
You misunderstood me... I mean those who are criticizing (ie: bitching) about the Wii U/Nintendo/E3/whatever are dissenters. And in this case I meant Fanboy as a positive thing. In other words, I mean to say the dissenters are true fanboys of Nintendo because they want whats best for the company and aren't afraid to speak up, instead of just being sheep and blindly accepting whatever they are told.
I just basically modified the quote "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism" that I think was said by Thomas Jefferson, but changed it from Patriotism to Fanboyism because that's more appropriate in this case.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 01:15:21 AM
Oopsie. I apologize.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ShyGuy on June 09, 2012, 01:52:01 AM
It turns out the Jocks and the Bullies were right all along. Nerds are whiny little pukes and need to be beaten.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on June 09, 2012, 01:55:02 AM
The internet can seem overly negative at times, but I have to say in this particular instance I would argue that most of it is warranted. Fortunately there are a handful of places like this forum where we can discuss, debate and criticise without resorting to 'bitching'. I'm perhaps among the most critical of Nintendo's E3 showing this year, but the difference between bitching and being critical I think is the manner in which you vocalise your opinions. It's the hyperbolic statements and rhetoric (both positive and negative) that gets on my nerves.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 09, 2012, 02:17:26 AM
I've noticed people get banned from gaf for bitching about bitching. Aside from making a big post on Facebook, this may be as safe a place as any.
Really? Wow. I mean, as much as I may disagree with someone and as much as I may be annoyed with their particular view point regarding Wii U/E3/etc., I wouldn't ban anyone for "bitching" about it unless they were way, way over the top or made some pretty nasty personal attacks against other forum members in their rant.
Did the banned users go over the top or does GAF just have more stringent rules on user conduct?
Neo Gaf is run by Sony fanboys who love to watch other Sony fanboys troll Nintendo and then ban Nintendo fans when they actually call them out for this sh!t. Seriously, go on any Wii U related thread this last week and people have been allowed to say the most negative related things about the system in the most trollish ways possible yet no mods call anyone out for it. Even though Neo Gaf is suppose to have rules that will ban people for trolling, if it's against Nintendo the mods don't care, but if somebody actually ask why people trolling Nintendo aren't being punished for what's clearly against the sites own rules, that person will labeled a Nintendo hivemind fanboy and banned instantly.
Yes they will sometimes ban people for trolling Nintendo but only if it gets into the most extremely stupid territory like saying Nintendo will be going third party in a few months or start begging for Nintendo exclusives to be ported to other systems since they have a no port begging rule that results in an instant ban if somebody does it without questions which is why Nintendo trolls will get banned for that since it's impossible for the mods to not enforce that rule since it's a zero tolerance rule.
Other then that people are free to trash Nintendo anyway they want and if any Nintendo fan tries to fight back they're the ones who gets banned.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 02:29:30 AM
It turns out the Jocks and the Bullies were right all along. Nerds are whiny little pukes and need to be beaten.
And after they get their ass kicked, they go online and act like an apparent badass because that's the only thing that can fill the pathetic void in their life.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 09, 2012, 02:41:20 AM
I'm seeing an awful lot of "bitching" in a thread about wanting an end to it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 09, 2012, 03:10:09 AM
I think gamers as a whole turn me off. They're entitled, they whine when a company doesn't cater to them 100% (god forbid they branch out to other people), and consider next gen to only have to do with power and nothing to do with innovation or new features.
Are you the same Oblivion from GAF?
It's weird because I consider to be NeoGAF to be just as bad as the sites they constantly make fun such as GameFAQs, except GameFAQs doesn't pretend its poop smells the nicest out of every site on the Internet. And the mods on GameFAQs don't participate in console wars and post trollbait either. It is a very hypocritical site. I have an account and can read the forums, but I do not and cannot post.
Now I'M the one whining. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 09, 2012, 03:19:23 AM
No, I'm not.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 09, 2012, 03:22:50 AM
That was a silly question as the name is common. I read gaf on the second post and got confused. Thank you for clearing that up.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 09, 2012, 03:52:30 AM
I'm seeing an awful lot of "bitching" in a thread about wanting an end to it.
Gandhi said you must "be the change you wish to see in the world", so if you want a world with less bitching then you must make the first step yourself and refrain from bitching about the bitchers. :)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on June 09, 2012, 05:50:26 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with having really high expectations for the big dogs in the highly competitive video game biz. Haters are gonna hate, and as strange as it may seem, I think that is a good thing - it sends a message that Nintendo is going to have to really knock our socks off if they want our money.
Ergo, people need to keep bitching.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 09, 2012, 07:28:16 AM
In other words, I mean to say the dissenters are true fanboys of Nintendo because they want whats best for the company and aren't afraid to speak up, instead of just being sheep and blindly accepting whatever they are told.
Chozo, no disrespect, but this is total ****. I have no doubt that you want what's best for Nintendo and have thoughts on how to get there. I just don't understand why what you're suggesting is what's best for Nintendo because you can't prove anything. There's an immensely large gap between what you want and what is.
I'm having a tremendous amount of trouble wrapping my head around your assertion that the dissenters somehow know what's up and everyone else are just sheep or rubes or whatever. Why can't people just like these things? Why are they blind followers? Why does their opinion matter less? Because that's what you're basically saying here. By your own logic, anyone who is a dissenter is the true fan who knows what's best. Replace "Wii" with anything else Nintendo released that was popular.
Some people just like things. In this case, a lot of people like this thing you don't particularly like. Maybe this is the best way, maybe not. Disliking something doesn't validate that something as bad. I didn't like Skyward Sword. I don't think Nintendo should never make a game like it again because I didn't like it. That would be a pretty audacious claim. "You can't have something you like because I don't like it and I know better than you." I reckon someone would flat-out fucking backhand me for making that claim.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong; I simply don't see how you could conceivably prove that you're right. And I don't understand how, at this point, some of you on this message board cannot grasp the nature of subjectivity. Additionally, I'm not saying that you shouldn't voice your concerns. Let your voice be heard! However, the second you start claiming that what you're saying is fact, I raise an eyebrow and say, "Let me tell you why that's bullshit."
/rant
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 09, 2012, 09:28:25 AM
There has been some bitching, but (at least here) it's seemed more like venting to me. At least that's why I complain.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 09, 2012, 10:05:14 AM
In this case, a lot of people like this thing you don't particularly like.
You mean the Wii U? I'm not sure what you mean by a "lot of people"... apparently a lot of people were disappointed in what they seen of it at E3 (or more accurately what they didn't see).
There are facts and there are opinions. Dissenters of Nintendo's current policies are voicing opinions, just like how people who are praising Nintendo are voicing opinions. In neither case are they fact. But what is a fact is that what was shown at E3 was a huge disappointment to many people. It is also a fact that the Wii is pretty much dead, and has been that way for quite some time. These are facts..... how you interpret them may be opinion.
I just want to know when the non-dissenters think about the declining sales and market share of the Wii and the lackluster performance (in the opinion of many) of E3? What is their answer? Should Nintendo "stay the course" despite all this and make no change in policy whatsoever? I've heard that the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.... well, the Wii ended up being a casual shovelware system that for most people just collected dust for long stretches of time due to lack of new games. So far nothing about the Wii U looks like it will be any different. What assurances do we have from Nintendo or third parties or anyone that the Wii U isn't going to have software droughts?
I don't want history to repeat itself yet again. We've had software droughts at the end of every Nintendo systems life cycle from the N64 onward. The NES and SNES on the other hand didn't have software droughts. In fact, both the NES and SNES seen new software releases well after the release of their successors. The last NES game was Wario Woods which came out in 1994, I think... This is how it SHOULD BE.
So one can be a dissenter to how Nintendo is running things now yet still be a Nintendo fan. Nintendo has done things right in the past, so that proves they are capable of it. The difference is now the company is under new leadership, and maybe that's what needs to change.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Sarail on June 09, 2012, 10:33:57 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with having really high expectations for the big dogs in the highly competitive video game biz. Haters are gonna hate, and as strange as it may seem, I think that is a good thing - it sends a message that Nintendo is going to have to really knock our socks off if they want our money.
Ergo, people need to keep bitching.
+1 to you, sir. If I could +1, that is... :P
I just feel like Nintendo's marketing is catered to one audience - all of those casual folks... no matter how hard it tries to go after the core gamer. Nintendo just doesn't come across as exciting like they used to in the old days. And that has nothing to do with me being a more grown up gamer either. The whole "Now you're playing with power... SUPER power!" and "Play it loud!" campaigns were fantastic... they were geared toward gamers, and they got me legitimately excited about Nintendo's games and products. Even the whole "Get N or Get Out." thing was great because it had this certain demanding attitude ... like "Yeah, we know we should have gone with CDs as our medium, but we've got the most technically capable of all the systems currently out..despite cartridges being limited... so yeah, get N or get out." And that was cool. I LOVED my N64 tons.
The problem with the Cube was that Nintendo had already lost it's 3rd party support, so it was an uphill battle from there - which is funny I say that, because I own more 3rd party games for my Cube than I do 1st party (around 40-ish games). And this is what has me so concerned for Wii U. Sure, the Wii had tons of 3rd party support...but it came in the form of loads of shovelware crap. And I just don't want that same attitude lacing Nintendo's new console this next-gen. That's why Nintendo needs to be more intensely aggressive, and it needs to develop a serious beastly attitude towards games and gamers. Show us you're not afraid, Nintendo!
But the Nintendo I see now IS NOT the same Nintendo I saw when I was younger (despite forcing Acclaim to modify Mortal Kombat on SNES). This Nintendo is afraid. It's afraid of offending even just ONE person. And it can't be that way. Not if you want to truly succeed and gain market AND mindshare back.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Drizzt on June 09, 2012, 10:34:07 AM
People have different opinions and I understand that but I feel people should look on the bright side. Are there alot of questions that have yet to be answered? yes. If you didn't like the conference thats fine but at least build a logical argument. How people on a poll I saw said Microsoft had the best conference is beyond me, I mean smartglass and like 3 decent looking games come on. Sometimes we let our inner fanboy and bias take center stage. Is criticism good? of course because it forces us to look at what is being critiqued and try to find improvement. Nintendo made some mistakes I'll acknowledge that. But it really angers me when I see people complaining for dumb reasons. Various websites as well as e3 tv shows have complained about lack of Zelda. It would be nice but Skyward is too new. If you're going to complain about lack of 1st party titles at least let them be series like star fox or f-zero who've had an ample amount of time to be developed. Nothing is perfect maybe we were expecting too much. But having watched all the conferences I am just amazed by all the bashing Nintendo is getting.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 09, 2012, 10:39:16 AM
There's a fine line between bitching and constructive criticism.
Any married man knows that.
Example:
Bitching: NintendoLand is stupid! Nintendo loses E3 for spending so much time on such a worthless title! WiiU sucks and I'm just going to stick with my PS3.
Constrictive: Nintendo shouldn't have spent as much time demoing NintendoLand as they did. First, they tell us that we won't understand the game until we actually play it, then they spent 15 minutes showing us how the game works. It would have been more worthwhile to tell us about the game, show a quick sizzle reel, then move on to something else. Showfloor impressions would have given us a much better idea if the game is enjoyable.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: rlse9 on June 09, 2012, 10:57:02 AM
No. It's more likely that I like rooting for the underdog and that it takes a truly transparent person to notice the fact that while all three companies had fairly shitty conferences this year, Nintendo is the one that all internet commenters and news outlets concentrate on.
I think the reason that so many are focusing on Nintendo's poor conference is that Nintendo really needed to have a good conference. Despite the success of the Wii, they're in the position that they need to prove, especially to gamers, that the WiiU is going to be worth purchasing. Their E3 doesn't just impact the next year, like it does for Sony and Microsoft, but the next five years or more. This E3 was big for Nintendo and they didn't meet the expectations of people.
But yes, it is true that people's response to things on the internet is not much of a barometer of what people in general think. Reading comments on articles (not just on games sites but on sports, music, and basically everywhere sadly) is almost sad, there's a segment of people trying to respond to the article with good points and have a discussion that's usually overtaken by a majority of people just spewing garbage.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 09, 2012, 11:14:41 AM
You mean the Wii U? I'm not sure what you mean by a "lot of people"... apparently a lot of people were disappointed in what they seen of it at E3 (or more accurately what they didn't see).
I was specifically referring to the Wii which a lot of people, including myself, liked even if you didn't like it. The verdict is still out on Wii U.
Quote
There are facts and there are opinions. Dissenters of Nintendo's current policies are voicing opinions, just like how people who are praising Nintendo are voicing opinions. In neither case are they fact. But what is a fact is that what was shown at E3 was a huge disappointment to many people. It is also a fact that the Wii is pretty much dead, and has been that way for quite some time. These are facts..... how you interpret them may be opinion.
What? No. That's not a fact, not phrased like that anyway. How are you defining "dead"? In this instance, that's a matter of perspecti... how are you not getting this? And yes, a lot of people thought E3 was a huge disappointment. That is fact (depending on how one defines "a lot"). It is also fact that a lot of people did not think E3 was a huge disappointment. How did you begin you paragraph defining facts and opinions and end the paragraph without understanding it at all?
Quote
I just want to know when the non-dissenters think about the declining sales and market share of the Wii and the lackluster performance (in the opinion of many) of E3? What is their answer? Should Nintendo "stay the course" despite all this and make no change in policy whatsoever?
What do you want to know about it?
To me, "staying the course" and "making no change in policy whatsoever" are 2 entirely different things. The latter seems so absolute and again, only a Sith deals in absolutes. By "staying the course," I think Nintendo should continue to attempt to reach as many people as they can. Perhaps they didn't do a good enough job of that with the Wii, but that doesn't mean they didn't try. They're a business; they want everyone's money. From what I understand, you and others are essentially saying "**** the casuals" and go all in with the core. I don't agree with that because Nintendo would potentially be leaving billions on the table and there's no guarantee that these so-called "dissenters" would even be pleased with the results of that complete shift in strategy. And yes, there's no guarantee that continuing to appeal to "non-dissenters" will continue to work. However, why break something just so you have more things to fix? Nintendo stands to alienate everyone. How do you reconcile this? I'm not sure that's even possible. Unless you believe in absolute universal agreement (which I don't), someone somewhere somehow will be disappointed. I think adjusting the current strategy is better and safer than abandoning it altogether. Nintendo shouldn't potentially risk pushing the people who like what their doing away in favor of people who need convincing. That's seems counterproductive to me.
Again, how do they reconcile this? I don't know. I have thoughts, suggestions and opinions, but it relies on things beyond Nintendo's control. Nintendo can't force 3rd parties to support Wii U. Nintendo can't just make a game that absolutely resonates with the core because resonance is at the mercy of public opinion. Nintendo can try; that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Quote
This is how it SHOULD BE.
According to your standards. Let's not do this again.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 09, 2012, 02:34:58 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with having really high expectations for the big dogs in the highly competitive video game biz. Haters are gonna hate, and as strange as it may seem, I think that is a good thing - it sends a message that Nintendo is going to have to really knock our socks off if they want our money.
Ergo, people need to keep bitching.
Haha. I like that argument. We need the extremes to keep Nintendo from deluding themselves that they've got 100% acceptance! They're a safeguard, a very important minority report!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: house3136 on June 09, 2012, 05:01:38 PM
What if Nintendo hadn’t announced Luigi’s Mansion and Paper Mario last year? What if nobody was expecting Pikmin 3, NSMB 2, and NSMBU? Do you think this year’s conference would have been better accepted? Yeah, last year’s Nintendo conference would have sucked without some of these 3DS titles or a SSB tease, but it wouldn’t have hurt SMB3DL, MK7, or Skyward Sword sales. The main problem is Nintendo announced these titles too early and now people are just underwhelmed because they already knew about these games; which is exactly what Nintendo didn’t do this year. They could have shown a huge sizzle reel of upcoming games that won’t be out for another year or two, but then nobody will give a **** when the game is officially shown and dated for release; which is exactly what happed this year. Personally, I don’t want to be teased with “Preorder the game now so you can play in holiday 2013!” Almost everything shown this year will be out this year or very soon following, I like that method. Aliens won’t be out until February anyway, a lot of games are being pushed out, so to expect huge devotion from 3rd party months before the Wii U launch, like Ubisoft is doing, is unrealistic considering finalized dev-kits have only been available for a few months. Wii U isn’t even for sale yet, you can’t even buy it for months, but let’s all be pissed off now about a lack of games. Because, of course, what was shown at E3 is the definitive game announcement for the next 6 years of the console. When I own a Wii U in five months, I’ll play it, than wait another 6 months for E3 2013. If they don’t have anything to blow me away (everything they didn’t show this year); then I can legitimately say Nintendo has underperformed. I believe disagreement is healthy, but let’s not judge Nintendo too harshly, prematurely. f
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Snake-Arms on June 09, 2012, 05:25:59 PM
Sorry ol' chap, but I'm going to bitch all I want. This year's E3 was terrible all around I just think Nintendo's was the most disappointing. They let me down (yeah, I know, they aren't putting on a show just for little ol' me) with a lackluster line-up for the Wii U's launch window. As of right now I have to plans to purchase one but I certainly see the potential of the controller...I just want to see a game that really blows my mind in it's implementation, which is something I never experienced with the Wii.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: shingi_70 on June 09, 2012, 06:01:52 PM
Eh I did my fair share of bitching. Though that was mostly for not having ghost recon online and showing a port as a marque title.
I do agree that a lot Gaf has a Sony slate. I mean I see nintendo and Microsoft threads get trolled hard but Sony threads are safe from harm. That and there are a lot of freaking jaded people there and popular opinion is usually wrong there.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 09, 2012, 08:59:33 PM
Adrock, there is a saying that "if you chase two rabbits you will lose both of them". Nintendo can go full force after the core market, or they could go full force after the casual market and in either way they would probably succeed. But the problem is they are taking "middle of the road" path and trying to pursue both at the same time. When you split yourself apart that means you aren't giving 100% in any particular direction and there is the danger you will fail in every way. True, its also possible to succeed in every way by pursuing everything, but its just far less likely than if you just gave 100% to one thing in particular.
Take that "NintendoLand" game for example. Here is a game that epitomizes Nintendo's divided focus between the casual and core markets. Who exactly does this game appeal to? It has core franchises like Mario and Zelda fused with casual mini game gameplay. Does this actually please both markets? Or does it actually piss off both?
Have you ever seen the show Firefly? It fused together the western and science fiction genres into this weird hybrid. I loved the show, and I though it was great... I'm sure if more people had given it a chance it would have had better ratings and wouldn't have been cancelled, but I think because the show was "chasing two rabbits" it ended up alienating everyone. People who like Westerns tend to not like Science Fiction, and vice versa. Yes, there are certainly exceptions... but those exceptions weren't enough to keep the show afloat.
So when I hear about this weird NintendoLand thing and it being a hybrid between casual and core, it reminds me a lot of the show Firefly... maybe it will be a great game, who knows? But the problem is the core characters and stuff might scare away the soccer moms and grandparents, while on the other hand the casual mini game gameplay might scare away the core gamers who hate that stuff. So there's a danger it will alienate both markets and as a result Nintendo may lose both.
I know NintendoLand is just one game, but its a launch title and may well be the system's pack in, so it really matters alot for being just a single game. Plus as I said this is just the epitome of Nintendo's strategy of targeting both markets simultaneously. The entire Wii U system and its weird hybrid controller also show this hybrid divided focus mentality.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 09, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Nintendoland is to Wii U as Wii Play was to Wii.
A fusion is exactly what it's meant to be. Using core franchises to draw in everybody to fun local multiplayer gaming that even the casuals can join in on.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: DonnyKD on June 11, 2012, 03:43:49 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with this thread.
Quote from: UncleBob
There's a fine line between bitching and constructive criticism.
Any married man knows that.
Example:
Bitching: NintendoLand is stupid! Nintendo loses E3 for spending so much time on such a worthless title! WiiU sucks and I'm just going to stick with my PS3.
Constrictive: Nintendo shouldn't have spent as much time demoing NintendoLand as they did. First, they tell us that we won't understand the game until we actually play it, then they spent 15 minutes showing us how the game works. It would have been more worthwhile to tell us about the game, show a quick sizzle reel, then move on to something else. Showfloor impressions would have given us a much better idea if the game is enjoyable.
Too bad the latter is almost never heard of.
It's mostly just crying about how "THEY DIDN'T SHOW ZELDA OR METROID OR SSB OR EARTHBOUND OR STAR FOX OR F-ZERO AND BLAH BLAH BLAH..." and people blame NINTENDO for not living up to their unfulfillable expectations.
I was satisfied with Nintendo's E3 because I saw what I wanted to see.
I wanted to know if they're going to announce Pikmin 3. They did that. I wanted to see more about NSMBU. They showed. I wanted to see what other games the Wii U had. And I'm excited for a bunch of them. Sure, I'm sad that the Kirby collection wasn't talked about, or if Animal Crossing wasn't shown, but I'm not bitching about it.
And I got even more over it when I learned that the Wii U conference was for launch and launch window games.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2012, 03:54:13 AM
You must be new here. You'll see a ton of fair, even-handed constructive criticism aimed at Nintendo on these forums. Outside here is probably a different story altogether.
There are very valid reasons to be upset with the Nintendo press conference. Nintendo had an opportunity to wow a collection of gaming media representatives, and by extension the people who read their sites. They kind of wasted that.
I played all five Nintendo Land games at the show, and they were by and large very good, but it really shouldn't have been the focus of the conference that it was. Yes, if you look at it as them only announcing stuff in the launch window it's less disappointing, but Nintendo had to realize that that context was going to be lost on a lot of people. A Smash Bros. CG trailer or a look at what Retro's doing would have gone a long way, and while there may be valid reasons for their absence it doesn't change the fact that Nintendo had the opportunity to blow everyone away and instead put forth a very meager, by the numbers show.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2012, 01:51:47 PM
My Mom sometimes gets mad at me for swearing too much. My response is that life should stop giving me so much incentive to swear. So I guess Nintendo shouldn't give me so much to bitch about.
If NWR was just a bunch of people talking about how awesome Nintendo is and patting each other on the back for their good decision to be a fan, it would be really boring (and rather embarassing). No one really wants that. Even if Nintendo was really firing on all cylinders there would be still disagreement and different opinions. Even with a game almost everyone likes there is still difference in opinion on how it compares to other Nintendo titles or other games in the same series.
I don't think anybody on here is bitching about the Wii U out of some pre-determined general hatred towards it or Nintendo. Everyone here wants the Wii U to be the best system Nintendo's ever made. It is that desire that ultimately causes the bitching. We want Nintendo systems and games to be great and if we think things are not going that way we justifiably get upset.
Even talk about the hope of the Wii U failing comes from the fan perspective of such a thing being for the greater good of Nintendo becoming a better videogame developer . We all like Nintendo and want Nintendo to be the best videogame developer in the world and if we think things are going in a direction that will move them away from that, we start bitching.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 11, 2012, 03:02:20 PM
So I've mostly stayed away from this conversation and this part of the forums simply because I didn't want to get dragged into the arguments within it, but let me see if I got this right.
Timeline:
Before E3, everyone was either a mix of excitement and hype or waiting to be disappointed. The main argument that persisted was the rumors of how weak the Wii U might be despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
During E3, Nintendo confirmed a lot of things that if absent could have potentially thrown off its own base, mainly two gamepad play. They also showed a game that people thought they were going to hate because it looked creatively dull, but ended up loving - New Super Mario Bros. U. But that wasn't enough because there wasn't a title aimed at gamers supposedly, even though Pikmin 3 was also announced. The main disappointment is that Nintendo's new system simply didn't have enough. I think what people are really disappointed about is no announcement of what Retro is doing. Which is fine, but this argument of Nintendo's policy to NOT announce titles not coming out this year is at the core of the issue.
Now that E3 is over, I hear one big argument and that's "Nintendo hasn't sold me a Wii U. I needed more." And that's perfectly legitimate if that were true. But it's not. You know why? Because your goal posts have moved.
Nintendo is giving you an HD internet-ready system with what looks like the most significant pack-in title since Super Mario Bros., a gamepad controller with support for two, a wireless controller that is more conventional, at least two big launch titles - one of which is Miyamoto's baby, and third-party support from the biggest names in the business.
And you need more? Since when.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_Neal on June 11, 2012, 03:15:30 PM
I'll repeat this until I'm blue in the face: Nintendo's E3 showing failed because there was no surprise. There were unrealistic expectations by many people, but even still, there was very little we didn't previously know about in some capacity. Actually, I'd Project P-100 was the only surprise at Nintendo's booth. Nintendo Land wasn't a shock, since we knew they would do something with those mini-games from E3 2011.
After playing everything that was offered for Nintendo systems at E3, I have this to say: I'm psyched, and I cannot wait for Wii U, both from its launch and its potential. Still, I'm long walk off a short cliff away from being a big-time Nintendo fanboy (if I'm not already). Where Nintendo failed was impressing anyone outside of Nintendo fans.
Get ready for another generation of mainstream sites not giving a ****. It sucks, but it's sadly true.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ThePerm on June 11, 2012, 03:17:52 PM
im broke for time so i only read the first post, but isn't the motto of the forum "where nintendo fans go to bitch about everything?"
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
Quote
Nintendo is giving you an HD internet-ready system with what looks like the most significant pack-in title since Super Mario Bros.
Oh come on! How could you possibly make such an over-the-top assumption at this point?
My goalposts didn't move. There wasn't anything before E3 to convince me and, as Neal said, E3 had no surprises. So nothing's changed. What I know about the Wii U post-E3 is hardly any different than it was before so if it wasn't enough to get a purchase out of me then, it isn't going to now.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 11, 2012, 03:37:10 PM
Fair or not, Nintendo always has the greatest expectations on them going into their annual press conference, because they're the only company that doesn't (intentionally or unintentionally) leak their games to the press. So I do think there's a lot of truth in us being disappointed because Nintendo showed nothing new.
However, there were three things I wanted to see going into this press conference:
1. I wanted to see Nintendo make a strong case for why I would want to play games using the Wii U GamePad, so much that I would buy the Wii U versions of 3rd party games over just their PS3 or 360 verisons.
I owned a DS once upon a time, and (outside of maybe The World Ends With You) I never found the 2nd screen to be altogether useful. Hooray, I can look at lazily-implemented maps and sub-screens! I couldn't do that before just by pausing my game! Nintendo didn't sell me on that GamePad, and without that the Wii U is a hard sell for me.
2. After 6 years of casual-oriented shovelware on Wii, I wanted to see a sign from Nintendo that they were ready to actually live up to their promises last year and cater to us more, the people who stayed even when the casuals abandoned the Wii. Now, I don't mean that they should exclude the casuals. I'm happy there were games for them at that press conference. After all, the casuals were the life of the Wii for the first 2-3 years of the Wii, but they were also the downfall of the Wii for the rest of its lifespan when they left for mobile phones and Kinect.
I suppose after years of Nintendo being probably a 30/70 split core vs. casuals in their lineup, I was hoping (especially after their comments last year) that maybe that split might get evened up to something like 60/40 in our favor. The casuals are not going to buy this system, at least not to the degree that they bought the Wii (really, what could?). Most of that market has been lost to other devices, and a weak touchscreen controller isn't going to bring them back.
3. I really wanted Nintendo to show me something exciting at that press conference, something that would make me say "**** YES! I am buying that DAY ONE!" And Retro's game would probably have done that, since they are Nintendo's best studio IMO. As much as I liked the original Pikmin, I was very lukewarm on Pikmin 2 and Pikmin 3 seemed like more of the same. It looked cool, but not exciting. Something exciting would be a reveal like the one for Metroid Other M a few years back, which looked so new and different from Nintendo and really got me hopeful for 2D Metroid actually appealing to me for once. Instead, this year Nintendo revealed...Nintendoland, a mini-game collection. Because we didn't get enough of that **** on the Wii. Lame.
I really wanted to be excited for the Wii U after this press conference, especially after how mediocre E3 in general has been this year. But I just saw nothing worth getting excited about at that press conference, and I don't care if a game that would do that wouldn't be ready at launch. Nintendo needed to show awesome software regardless of how far off their release date was. System launches are all about potential, the future of the device. I didn't see a future for the Wii at the press conference, just an incredibly lame present. The Wii U just looked like more of the Wii years, but in HD, and I didn't like the Wii years.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 11, 2012, 03:38:38 PM
I wasn't saying Nintendo Land is better than Super Mario Bros. I'm saying that could be the most significant pack-in since then. Basically, I'm saying more significant than Wii-sports and less significant than Super Mario Bros. Can that be agreed on?
And no, Ian. Your goal posts have moved. Your favorite new franchise is on the system in HD with traditional controls, yet that doesn't excite you anymore. How jaded can you be?
And since when do you guys NEED a surprise. I bet you are not like this with any other media. I bet with movies, if you see an awesome trailer, you are going to be excited learning more about that movie than watching another trailer. Or a band releases an awesome single. Again, I bet you are going to be excited hearing more about that album than listening to another band's single. So why is it so different with video games? Because you have to buy a product to enjoy it. Welcome to the world of multimedia.
So jaded.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 11, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
... Now that E3 is over, I hear one big argument and that's "Nintendo hasn't sold me a Wii U. I needed more." And that's perfectly legitimate if that were true. But it's not. You know why? Because your goal posts have moved. ...
My goalposts haven't moved. Maybe yours have, or maybe you just assumed that my goalposts were the same as yours to start with... but mine haven't moved an inch. I went in hoping for something - anything - that would really excite me about Wii U and/or 3DS. I was hoping for at least one surprise that made me sit up, circle a date on my calendar, and start saving pennies for a game/system/whatever. When E3 ended I was left disappointed because there was nothing shown that I care about enough to follow between now and release.
Maybe that's not quite true. Rayman Legends does look really cool. But not "system selling" cool.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 11, 2012, 04:13:26 PM
My Mom sometimes gets mad at me for swearing too much.
I think you're onto something Ian. I don't think anyone here has a problem with dissent, reasoned complaints, or even critical views. I think my problem with the "bitching" is like your mother's problem with "swearing", possibly a communication breakdown due to the use of pointed emotionally-charged vitriol.
My brother swears a lot playing certain games and that really throws me off emotionally/mentally. I personally have difficulty fathoming why he would let himself/choose to put himself in such a stressful situation that he needs to vent in such an explicit way. However, that may be fine for him, he may be comfortable with a higher level of stress in his life, may revel in the emotional highs and lows that I try to avoid, and be more personally comfortable with language that I find offensive.
This may just be a difference in emotional communication styles between people. I think strong emotionally-charged language should be saved for extreme situations, like when experiencing intense physical pain. Others might think it's perfectly acceptable language to express their otherwise rational disappointment when their favorite sports team, or videogame company, don't win a game.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2012, 05:14:33 PM
I wasn't saying Nintendo Land is better than Super Mario Bros. I'm saying that could be the most significant pack-in since then. Basically, I'm saying more significant than Wii-sports and less significant than Super Mario Bros. Can that be agreed on?
And no, Ian. Your goal posts have moved. Your favorite new franchise is on the system in HD with traditional controls, yet that doesn't excite you anymore. How jaded can you be?
I don't see Nintendo Land being more significant than Wii Sports. Wii Sports started an absolute frenzy. The Wii was sold out for THREE YEARS. I can't see Nintendo Land topping THAT. Wii Sports and Super Mario Bros are probably the two most significant pack-in games in videogame history. To suggest that any new game will compare to those is a bold statement.
I knew for a long time that my "favourite franchise" was on the Wii U in HD. And it actually DOESN'T have traditional controls as it plays like the NPC Pikmin games. But, anyway, I already knew about it and it wasn't enough then so, no the goal posts didn't move at all.
For a while I thought Nintendo's plan to cater to both the casual and the core was impossible as they just can't possibly serve one master without neglecting the other (prior to the Wii, core gamers got nearly 100% of Nintendo's attention. How could they possibly have matched that?) But the Xbox 360 is kind of doing it now with Kinect. No core gamer considers the Xbox 360 to be a casual system but Kinect certainly is a casual peripheral and it's quite successful. So cores and casuals are both owning the Xbox 360 and are both enjoying it. But then Microsoft's post-Kinect E3 presentations have not gone over well with core gamers, suggesting that perhaps their focus on casuals is resulting in neglect of the core.
Still pleasing both could be doable if Nintendo really saw them as seperate entities and did not try to make crossover titles that appeal to both. They also need to essentially double their size to provide twice the output so that both groups get a healthy amount of releases aimed at them. But Nintendo acts like something like Wii Music "counts" just as much as a new release as a Zelda game. They don't take into account that many core gamers have no interest in such a title and essentially treat it as a "blank" in the release lineup. So, no, to do this effectively they can't throw out one title to be the big game for the Christmas season and expect BOTH groups to like it. They need TWO Christmas games, one that appeals to each. It's very hard to make a game appeal to both that core gamers won't consider compromised for the lowest common denominator.
Let's say Nintendo routine makes ten games a year. Prior to the Wii that was ten games for core gamers each year. Now they have two groups to cater to, but release the same amount of games. So that's now three casual games and seven core games. So now core gamers only get seven games a year? We used to get ten! See, it doesn't even matter if the majority still favours the core. The output has decreased and we get less games than we used to get. For Nintendo to have any chance of pleasing the core they would have to increase their size to increase their output to get ten core games a year again.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 11, 2012, 05:22:24 PM
I knew for a long time that my "favourite franchise" was on the Wii U in HD. And it actually DOESN'T have traditional controls as it plays like the NPC Pikmin games.
I thought that Pikmin 3 only played like the NPC Pikmin games if you're using a Wiimote as your controller, with traditional GameCube-style controls available if you use the GamePad?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2012, 05:34:54 PM
Nope. It still uses the pointer with the GamePad, which is pretty hard to use properly. The Wii remote controls work fantastically, though; it's a game that really benefits from the pointer, and what I saw didn't use motion at all, just the pointer.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 11, 2012, 05:36:02 PM
But, anyway, I already knew about it and it wasn't enough...
That's about right.
Quote
Still pleasing both could be doable if Nintendo really saw them as seperate entities and did not try to make crossover titles that appeal to both. They also need to essentially double their size to provide twice the output so that both groups get a healthy amount of releases aimed at them.
No, they don't. Nintendo makes fewer casual games. They probably don't take nearly as long to develop as core games either.
Quote
Let's say Nintendo routine makes ten games a year. Prior to the Wii that was ten games for core gamers each year. Now they have two groups to cater to, but release the same amount of games. So that's now three casual games and seven core games. So now core gamers only get seven games a year? We used to get ten!
Let me ask you something: how many Nintendo games do you realistically buy a year? I know you were just throwing out estimates but if you're not going to buy every single one of those 1st party core games, it's silly to say that Nintendo didn't release enough games. "Ugh, only 7 games, but I'm only going to buy 3, maybe just 2." I can't be the only one who thinks that's ridiculous. "There should be more things!" Why? So you can not buy them too?
And the ironic part about this is that you always harken back to the good old days of the SNES... except Nintendo was smaller then and had fewer teams. You get more core games now then you ever did 20 years ago. It's pretty unfair to complain about what you're presently getting is you ask me. You aren...
Quote
it wasn't enough...
Oh, right. That.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2012, 05:42:14 PM
Nope. It still uses the pointer with the GamePad, which is pretty hard to use properly.
@_@ Don't know if want...
Just use the remote/nunchuk controls, they work great.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2012, 07:08:37 PM
Quote
Let me ask you something: how many Nintendo games do you realistically buy a year? I know you were just throwing out estimates but if you're not going to buy every single one of those 1st party core games, it's silly to say that Nintendo didn't release enough games. "Ugh, only 7 games, but I'm only going to buy 3, maybe just 2." I can't be the only one who thinks that's ridiculous. "There should be more things!" Why? So you can not buy them too?
I was just using 10 and 7 as an example and I have no idea off the top of my head what Nintendo's typical numbers are. It's not about how many games I buy because people have different tastes. It's about how many games are available to choose from. Any time someone complains about a lack of games, someone posts the LIST of everything available. But the assumption of that is "if you buy every game here, you're more than satisfied." But not everyone likes every game. That's why you have variety. That's why the infamous "list everything you can think of" routine does not happen with consoles with good third party support. Those systems have enough variety that even someone with the most niche tastes can find something they like.
Nintendo's weak third party support has made it so that the first party releases really matter. When a Nintendo game drops, it might be the only thing remotely decent being released for months. That was annoying on the N64 and Gamecube but at least if I wasn't interested in a game it was just a matter of personal preference. The game was still designed for videogame fans and was almost certainly a well made game. So maybe the average gamer will dig 50% of those titles. With the casual games eating up a chunk of Nintendo's output there is now less to choose from. But odds are the average gamer will still only dig 50% of those. The size of selection has decreased so the amount of games you truly like also decreases.
The Wii Music thing was a huge PR disaster because they slotted the casual game in the Christmas "spot". So for core gamers it was like they had no game at all. The two groups are not treated as mutually exclusive by Nintendo as they don't make an effort to space the releases that way.
If your favourite show dictated some segment every episode to something that was of no interest to most of the original fanbase, it would mean LESS SHOW FOR YOU, unless they added extra time to each episode. I should be able to completely ignore all casual content on a Nintendo system and feel like their output is no less than it was in previous generations (and that was not the case, the Wii had tons of droughts). "Well they still give us plenty." Doesn't matter. They're still asking their fans to put up with LESS than we had before. Why? Why should we be expected to accomodate this particularly when Nintendo consoles have had weak third party support for so long and thus a healthy first party release schedule is of the utmost importance?
That's the problem. They're asking their original customers to put up with their now divided attention when it provides no benefit to those customers. Ultimately they have to make it not appear like this to core gamers.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 11, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
Nintendo's weak third party support has made it so that the first party releases really matter. When a Nintendo game drops, it might be the only thing remotely decent being released for months. That was annoying on the N64 and Gamecube but at least if I wasn't interested in a game it was just a matter of personal preference. The game was still designed for videogame fans and was almost certainly a well made game. So maybe the average gamer will dig 50% of those titles. With the casual games eating up a chunk of Nintendo's output there is now less to choose from. But odds are the average gamer will still only dig 50% of those. The size of selection has decreased so the amount of games you truly like also decreases.
The Wii Music thing was a huge PR disaster because they slotted the casual game in the Christmas "spot". So for core gamers it was like they had no game at all. The two groups are not treated as mutually exclusive by Nintendo as they don't make an effort to space the releases that way.
Only that isn't true at all. The core game for Christmas 2008 was Animal Crossing City Folk for the Wii which by your own definition is a core game. You have said EVERY single game Nintendo made before Iwata was in charge was a core game aimed 100% at core gamers.
The first Animal Crossing was released for the N64 in Japan on April 2001. During this time Yamauchi was the president and by your own words, EVERYTHING Nintendo made was aimed at core gamers. Well 7 years later we get to holiday 2008 and Nintendo releases one game for the casuals, Wii Music and one game for the core, Animal Crossing: City Folk. Since this is a Nintendo series made before Iwata was president and the Wii even existed, it's a core series.
So as you can see once again, Nintendo didn't sacrifice anything for the casuals. They gave the core gamers a new game from what you have said is a core series. Unless of course you're going to say Animal Crossing isn't a core series anymore, which will then destroy your argument that everything Nintendo did before Iwata was aimed at core gamers.
So please, answer the question. Is Animal Crossing a core series which means Nintendo did service both groups for Christmas 2008 or Animal Crossing isn't core which means Old Nintendo under Yamauchi made games that weren't 100% aimed at core either?
I'm rather interested in how your going to explain your way out of this.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 11, 2012, 07:40:30 PM
They're asking their original customers to put up with their now divided attention when it provides no benefit to those customers.
I can understand if someone's just not interested in Nintendo systems that don't have certain games. But, just speaking as an "original customer" since I got started with Zelda when I was 3, I still see Nintendo's attention focused on the same 2 to 92 demographic they've always claimed their games are for.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 11, 2012, 07:48:04 PM
Any time someone complains about a lack of games, someone posts the LIST of everything available. But the assumption of that is "if you buy every game here, you're more than satisfied." But not everyone likes every game. That's why you have variety. That's why the infamous "list everything you can think of" routine does not happen with consoles with good third party support. Those systems have enough variety that even someone with the most niche tastes can find something they like.
I didn't post a list. I simply asked you how many Nintendo games you buy a year. "Ugh, it's not enough." Well, what is enough? You can cop-out with the "not everyone likes every game" line but really, it's not about the number of games. It's whether the games resonate with people. More games may provide more variety, but that still doesn't mean you're going to like it. Nintendo supports 2 platforms; there's plenty of variety. If you don't want one or the other, that's too bad. Nintendo has been operating that way for over 20 years.
And, once again, Nintendo makes more core games today than they ever did. Why was X number of games enough 20 years ago, but more than that is not enough today? I don't mind complaints, but yours don't make sense. Nintendo has never had this many internal teams ever. You can keep trying to blame casual games, but that's inherently flawed because as previously stated, Nintendo makes fewer casual games and they also require less resources. Do you really think Nintendo spent as much time, money, and manpower on Wii Play as they did on Super Mario Galaxy? You just want more. And if you got more, you'd want more than that. Attempting to placate you is futile.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on June 11, 2012, 07:50:47 PM
So please, answer the question. Is Animal Crossing a core series which means Nintendo did service both groups for Christmas 2008 or Animal Crossing isn't core which means Old Nintendo under Yamauchi made games that weren't 100% aimed at core either?
I'm rather interested in how your going to explain your way out of this.
I hate how people think this casual gaming fad is somehow new. It didn't start with Nintendo, it didn't start with smartphones, it didn't start with the rise of web gaming.
Casual games have been around since the beginning of the gaming industry. In fact, the entire arcade industry was built on the success of casual games like Pac-Man, Galaga, Space Invaders, Dig-Dug, Joust, Donkey Kong, Centipede, etc.
In those early days (before the 1990's), casual games thrived in arcades, while "core" games were more prevalent on PC's ("core" games in those days were mainly RPG's). And Nintendo has been making casual games since Donkey Kong (Arcade).
The entirety of the video game industry was built on the success of casual gaming. Games used to be all about "pick up and play" experiences. It had mass appeal, and everyone was able to enjoy gaming, regardless of their skill level.
All of these things caused gamers to form a somewhat elitist attitude. They wanted more enriching experiences that arcades couldn't provide. Gaming began to evolve towards more complex play styles. The mass market appeal of gaming was losing it's effect on the mainstream public, and soon after the gaming industry began to appeal solely to gamers.
In the mid 1990's, the push for 3D graphics further accentuated this rapid change in demographics. 2D gaming was out, 3D gaming was in, and with that came the need for more powerful consoles and more complex controllers. The more complex something is, the less appeal it has for the mainstream public.
And now, this whole push for more "cinematic gaming" is leading us even further away from the industry's roots.
This situation is precisely the reason why Nintendo wanted to bring gaming back to it's roots with the Wii. They wanted gaming to be accessible for everyone, not just "hardcore" players. And the huge boom of smartphone and web gaming has also helped this.
Here's the point: Casual gaming has always been around, it's just that core games have overshadowed it these past 2 decades.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 11, 2012, 07:52:33 PM
Not everyone likes every kind of game.
Therefore, Nintendo should only make games for me.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2012, 08:02:44 PM
Animal Crossing City Folk is a glorified PORT of the Gamecube game. That's why I don't count it and that's why core gamers **** all over it at E3. Animal Crossing ain't a series it's one FUCKING GAME that Nintendo adds one or two new features to and re-releases again and again. It's like if each Mario Kart added one new track and called itself a sequel. If Animal Crossing City Folk is a new game than Super Mario 64 DS is a new game.
I'm sure you'll **** all over that but I had the same opinion of it back in 2008 so it isn't like I flip-flopped. I consider Animal Crossing a core game but Nintendo can't really say they're targetting core gamers on a game where most of the content is recycled from a game that most core gamers would have already played on either the Cube or DS. Or maybe instead of saying core gamers got no game in that time period they got PART of a game, which isn't really much better. Due to the amount of recycled content it seems that Nintendo's plan with Animal Crossing City Folk was to sell it to Nintendo newcomers that had not already played it on another system (ie: casuals new to Nintendo). It's appeal is similar to the NPC titles, where they hoped to sell some old games to Wii owners who missed out on the Cube. It wasn't for existing Nintendo fans who had played Animal Crossing already. Read any review and it'll say "great game... if you haven't already played another version of it".
They didn't make the core gamers a new game, they added one or two features of an old core game. City Folk is essentially a complete rip-off for anyone who owned the DS version.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on June 11, 2012, 08:07:13 PM
Animal Crossing City Folk is a glorified PORT of the Gamecube game. That's why I don't count it and that's why core gamers **** all over it at E3. Animal Crossing ain't a series it's one FUCKING GAME that Nintendo adds one or two new features to and re-releases again and again. It's like if each Mario Kart added one new track and called itself a sequel. If Animal Crossing City Folk is a new game than Super Mario 64 DS is a new game.
I'm sure you'll **** all over that but I had the same opinion of it back in 2008 so it isn't like I flip-flopped. I consider Animal Crossing a core game but Nintendo can't really say they're targetting core gamers on a game where most of the content is recycled from a game that most core gamers would have already played on either the Cube or DS. Or maybe instead of saying core gamers got no game in that time period they got PART of a game, which isn't really much better. Due to the amount of recycled content it seems that Nintendo's plan with Animal Crossing City Folk was to sell it to Nintendo newcomers that had not already played it on another system (ie: casuals new to Nintendo). It's appeal is similar to the NPC titles, where they hoped to sell some old games to Wii owners who missed out on the Cube. It wasn't for existing Nintendo fans who had played Animal Crossing already. Read any review and it'll say "great game... if you haven't already played another version of it".
They didn't make the core gamers a new game, they added one or two features of an old core game. City Folk is essentially a complete rip-off for anyone who owned the DS version.
Read my post above. I think it explains the situation clearly and concisely.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 11, 2012, 08:32:59 PM
And the ironic part about this is that you always harken back to the good old days of the SNES... except Nintendo was smaller then and had fewer teams. You get more core games now then you ever did 20 years ago. It's pretty unfair to complain about what you're presently getting is you ask me.
Regardless of what Nintendo's output was 20 years ago, the market has grown dramatically since then. The problem is Nintendo's output hasn't been able to keep pace with the growing market. Sony and Microsoft on the other hand have been able to do that on their systems. I don't know if Sony/Microsoft 1st party output exceeds that of Nintendo's 1st party output, but I do know that 3rd party output absolutely certainly does. There's the problem.
Maybe Nintendo's 1st party output isn't any worse than it was 20 years ago, or maybe like you said its even better than that... but 3rd party support has declined dramatically on Nintendo hardware starting on the N64 onwards, and any growth in output from Nintendo's 1st and 2nd parties (if any) has not been able to offset the loss of third party support.
Back in the SNES era if Nintendo didn't keep a healthy games lineup going it wasn't a big deal because there was ALWAYS 3rd party titles coming out. You never felt deprived. That's my point. And for me the reason why E3 was such a disappointment is because 3rd party support wasn't there. The only company that seems to be fully on board is Ubisoft, and I applaud them for that, but unfortunately they were the only ones.... everyone else is offering token support at best. EA for example is one of the largest 3rd parties, yet all they had to offer was Mass Effect 3? That's it?
This is the reason for the disappointment in the Wii U. Its not a case of moving goalposts. The goalpost has always been about the games. This is what matters most about a console... things like confirmation of two gamepads and things like that were nice, but nothing matters more than games. Where were those? That was the goalpost and no one except Ubisoft came through.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2012, 11:36:09 PM
The vibe I get is EA's got more up their sleeve than they talked about at E3. Expect more announcements from them in the next couple months.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2012, 12:31:00 AM
Regardless of what Nintendo's output was 20 years ago, the market has grown dramatically since then. The problem is Nintendo's output hasn't been able to keep pace with the growing market.
Would you kindly back that claim with some evidence? I don't even really know what that means.
As for the rest of your post, not surprisingly, I disagree with you. I think about the strides Nintendo has made and I'm satisfied with their progress so far. I don't think they should stop there and I don't think they will. I criticize them when I feel it's appropriate, but I try to be fair. Of course, I want better 3rd party support but Nintendo can't force them to do anything and that's precisely how Nintendo burned those bridges all those years ago. These days, they've gone on record to say that they requested feedback from 3rd parties and there are reports that Nintendo actually listened (was it Gearbox who said that?). The analog sticks on the Gamepad is probably one of those things. On top of that, it's June. Anything can happen before launch.
And by the way, I never felt deprived of games. In fact, I'm backlogged. I own a PS3 and I still bought more Wii games. Just because you're disappointed; doesn't mean everyone is. I'm not disappointed. You can be if you want. That's certainly your prerogative.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2012, 01:19:45 PM
For those saying that Nintendo has more core games than ever, how many core games have they release for the Wii this year? Isn't it only one, and that was a two year old game NOA needed a fan driven campaign and another company helping with the costs, to localize it. And last year we got what? Two? That last few years of the Wii have been incredibly sparse.
Last year when I got Zelda, I popped out the disc sitting in my Wii and it was DKC Returns, which I had got the previous Christmas. That meant I literally had not played my Wii in almost an entire year.
The Wii U needs a healthy enough lineup that this kind of observation is rare. Like those that dismiss it as casual or that it's library is full of shovelware are in the minority. And it isn't just what is reality or what isn't. The perception is what will determine if the Wii U succeeds with core gamers or not. On the N64 and Gamecube, I felt that the general opinion of those systems was inaccurately harsh. But that doesn't matter. If the Gamecube has poor sales because everyone thinks it's kiddy and has no games, then it doesn't sell. If people think the Wii U is a casual system, regardless of whether that is warranted, that will be its fate. It won't sell with core gamers and third parties won't make core games for it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2012, 01:48:57 PM
For those saying that Nintendo has more core games than ever, how many core games have they release for the Wii this year? Isn't it only one, and that was a two year old game NOA needed a fan driven campaign and another company helping with the costs, to localize it. And last year we got what? Two? That last few years of the Wii have been incredibly sparse.
You know it's the end of the console life cycle and that every single team within Nintendo is working on next gen stuff.
Nintendo also has 3DS. You hate lists but you're conveniently ignoring what they tell you. Jesus...
Quote
If people think the Wii U is a casual system, regardless of whether that is warranted, that will be its fate. It won't sell with core gamers and third parties won't make core games for it.
The majority of core gamers even interested in Wii U are already Nintendo fans. With few 3rd party exclusives going around, 1st party titles that are the X factor and Nintendo makes plenty of those. 3rd parties are either going to support Wii U or not. You can try to blame casual games but that doesn't tell the whole story. I don't really know what else you want Nintendo to do here. You want them to release even more games but that turns off 3rd parties that already hate going head-to-heard with Nintendo. You want even fewer casual games from Nintendo but those people are helping Nintendo expand because it's not like anyone else is. Someway, somehow Nintendo has to make a profit. Maybe you don't care about that but Nintendo does and they have to do what's best for them. You keep demanding things but it's not as easy as you're making it sound. You claim that "it's not enough" without defining what is. Again, attempting to placate you is futile. All I'm getting from you is that you want Nintendo to cater specifically to you which I get because who wouldn't want that? However, that is wholly unrealistic.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 01:53:40 PM
Good point Ian. We've gotten few Wii games this year.
Let's compare to previous Nintendo systems. Now, I'm going to use Wikipedia, because I'm lazy, but...
Last year of N64's life, we got: Dr. Mario 64 Paper Mario Mario Party 3 Pokémon Stadium 2
For GCN, we got: Baten Kaitos Origins Chibi-Robo! Odama The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
For Wii, we're looking at: Rhythm Heaven Fever PokéPark 2: Wonders Beyond Mario Party 9 Xenoblade Chronicles New Play Control! Pikmin 2 Kirby 20th Anniversary Edition
Four N64, Four GCN and Six Wii titles. Two additional Wii Titles - though they do happen to be ports. Comparing to the N64, you got a Mario Party, a Pokémon Spin-off, an RPG (Xenoblade vs. Paper Mario) and I'd pair Rhythm Heaven with Dr. Mario for the addicting game play. ;)
For the GameCube, You've got an RPG (Xenoblade vs. Baten Kaitos Origins), the awesome Chibi-Robo that virtually no one bought, the more awesome Odama that virtually no one liked (but me) and a mediocre Zelda game that was far, far overshadowed by the fact it was released about a month earlier on the new system.
So.. basically, we've got the N64's final year with a couple of ports (one of which is awesome and the other probably will be if they ever frickin' announce what's in it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2012, 02:00:52 PM
Don't forget about The Last Story.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 02:05:11 PM
I just went with Nintendo published titles released in NA.
It's almost worth mentioning that IF Dragon Quest gets a Wii release in NA, it would be this year and would be published by Nintendo...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 12, 2012, 02:13:34 PM
If Nintendo were doing a good job, releasing games people wanted, then they wouldn't have lost a billion dollars last year. Maybe this thread should be titled "People Need To Stop Pointing Out How Badly Nintendo Is Fucking Up"
I'm amazed that anyone defending Nintendo actually has the time to, given how much they spend playing their Wii and DS, with the many, many quality titles that Nintendo is selling them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 02:22:37 PM
If Nintendo were doing a good job, releasing games people wanted, then they wouldn't have lost a billion dollars last year. Maybe this thread should be titled "People Need To Stop Pointing Out How Badly Nintendo Is Fucking Up"
Billion? I think you're confused, sir. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577367243824458530.html
Quote
Nintendo Records $531.1 Million Annual Loss
By your logic, Sony really has no idea what they're doing...
Sony Corp. posted a record $5.6-billion annual loss Thursday, ending a fiscal year marred by global economic turmoil and the after-effects of last spring's earthquake and tsunami in Japan and last fall's floods in Thailand.
[...] Much of last year's revenue decline was due to a steep 18.5% drop in the sales of its LCD television sets, digital cameras, personal computers and PlayStation games businesses, which made up close to half of Sony's total revenue.
And Microsoft isn't doing much better... http://www.lazygamer.net/xbox-360/microsoft-posts-surprising-xbox-360-loss/
Quote
Microsoft’s entertainment and devices division - which includes its Xbox business – made a staggering loss of $229 million in the first three months of this year, during which Xbox 360 sales fell by almost half when compared with last year.
Of course, it’s not really the Xbox itself within the entertainment and devices division that’s bleeding the Redmond giant’s money, and more its re-invigorated foray in to the smartphone market with its Windows 8 series of phones. The division’s revenue dropped 16.5 per cent, to $1.6 billion (that’s 1.6 Instagrams!), with the Xbox 360 selling just 1.4 million for the three months ending March 31 – a drop of more than 48 per cent from last year, when sales hit 2.8 million. I’d like to blame Kinect for it all, but that sucker’s sold like gangbusters.
Microsoft’s put it down to a “”soft gaming console market,” and though they seem to be doing their best to focus on the positive (It’s still the top selling console, guys!) they could be right. Sales of console hardware and software has dropped on all platforms. the declines in console gaming could have two effects; unwilling to take the huge financial hit of a new console launch, both Sony and Microsoft could delay the next generation for as long as possible. Or they could see the flagging sales as motivation to release new consoles earlier than planned, to recapture the market. We’ll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 12, 2012, 02:26:07 PM
Saying the N64 and GCN also had software droughts and somehow suggesting that makes it okay that the Wii also does isn't a valid argument because these are also Nintendo consoles. Plus the NES and SNES didn't have droughts at the end of their life span. Both the NES and SNES were supported well after the release of their successors... I don't know what the last SNES game was, but the last NES game was Wario's Woods which came out in 1994... a full three years after the SNES launched.
You are right that the Wii isn't the only Nintendo system to suffer droughts, but I don't think the N64 or GCN should be off the hook for their droughts either. But that was then, and right now we are in the present.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
Geez, I'm so sorry I didn't mention the collection of Kirby ports in my list.
I'm not asking Nintendo to cater specifically to my tastes. It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, mostly due to pathetic third party support. I'm getting flack like I'm the lone weirdo making this complaint. Bullshit. Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.
I want: - good third party support - industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers - a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals - for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)
Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes. They have not even sniffed this since the Super Nintendo (and the last two points were never an issue until the Wii). The Wii U has yet to demonstrate that it will fulfill these requirements or that Nintendo is on the right track to fulfill those requirements down the road with the Wii U successor. It still has time to do so but after getting burned so bad on the Wii I'm going to wait and see on that.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
If my Wikipedia sorting/digging skills are right, here's the SNES's NA, Nintendo Published line-up for the last two years of its life (96/97, with the N64 being released in 96)
Kirby Super Star Ken Griffey Jr.'s Winning Run Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! Tetris Attack Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars Kirby's Dream Land 3
As for the NES, considering it had virtually 100% of the market and wasn't even discontinued from Nintendo until 2003, yeah... it was a bit odd.
But, for completeness: List of NES games published by Nintendo and released during or after the launch year of the SNES (91-94)... Be prepared, this massive list may take awhile for your computer to load...
NES Open Tournament Golf (The only game released in 1991 from Nintendo) Yoshi Yoshi's Cookie Kirby's Adventure Tetris 2 Mega Man 6 Zoda's Revenge: StarTropics II Wario's Woods
hmm...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 12, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
If Nintendo were doing a good job, releasing games people wanted, then they wouldn't have lost a billion dollars last year. Maybe this thread should be titled "People Need To Stop Pointing Out How Badly Nintendo Is Fucking Up"
Billion? I think you're confused, sir. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577367243824458530.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577367243824458530.html)
Quote
Nintendo Records $531.1 Million Annual Loss
Your're right, they lost 1/2 a billion dollars. My mistake. And I agree, neither Sony nor Microsoft are very good at selling videogames either. Being diversified companies, they're able to hide their game division losses better than Nintendo.
I'm not taking a swipe at Nintendo, I'm just pointing out the fact that they're not making games that many people want. Nintendo used to do this in the 8-16 bit era and again with the Wii for a few years-- and they did it from the gb to DS, on handhelds, too. Nintendo hasn't put out a Wii game that's put up any decent numbers since 2009 and the 3ds needed to sell at a loss to survive its first year.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 02:50:31 PM
Geez, I'm so sorry I didn't mention the collection of Kirby ports in my list.
You made a list? I thought you merely mentioned one of the six known releases that you're interested in and blissfully ignored the other five.
Quote
It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, [...] Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.
So... You realize that Nintendo has been operating the same way for nearly 20 years and you still want them to change?
I wonder, how many years does a business need to have a new business model before people realize that the business has changed and they're no longer compatible?
And I agree, neither Sony nor Microsoft are very good at selling videogames either.
Really? Because that's not the impression I get from some of the folks here who seem to keep saying how Sony does this or Microsoft does that and therefore Nintendo should as well.
See, I was thinking all these entertainment losses probably had a lot more to do with the huge, global economic recession and such...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 12, 2012, 03:04:46 PM
Are people actually arguing that Wii has had strong (or even adequate) software support over the past two years for core gamers? That the ongoing drought is acceptable? Seriously?
Look, I like Nintendo. I am a proud Wii gamer who has collected well over 100 games for the system without counting digital releases - games that I enjoy and have either already played or eventually will. Nintendo makes good hardware, publishes a lot of games I enjoy, and provides a home for various niche titles and genres that are often are ignored on other platforms.
But the Wii software release schedule has consisted of slim pickings for a long time - especially if your interests are limited to core-friendly titles. Saying anything else at this point is delusional.
Check Metacritic and sort best Wii titles by year.
For 2012, you have a grand total of 8 games listed at all (with some unreleased in North America, possibly never coming) and only 3 games higher than an 80 average. Xenoblade is my favorite game in years and I enjoy an occasional Mario Party 9 for what it is... but it's really really hard to argue that this list represents quality or quantity.
For 2011 things are better... sort of. There are 9 titles with a Metacritic rating over 80 (including 3 digital releases and the Bit.Trip compilation) and at least enough variety that you'll probably find something worth trying if you dig in a little bit. But how many core gamers are satisfied with a console that offers less than one good game per month for multiple years?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
It has been a common complaint since the N64 years that Nintendo systems had a sparse selection of games, [...] Go outside a Nintendo forum and the big beef with the Wii is that it is full a casual crap with a few bright gems (pretty much always by Nintendo) in between.
So... You realize that Nintendo has been operating the same way for nearly 20 years and you still want them to change?
I wonder, how many years does a business need to have a new business model before people realize that the business has changed and they're no longer compatible?
Well I did put up with the N64 and Gamecube. They were not quite what I wanted but were tolerable. The Wii was the first one I really outright disliked. But is having shitty third party support part of Nintendo's business model or is it just an undesired result of incompetence? I highly doubt they set out intentionally to do this. But I would only say Nintendo has been outright incompatible with me for six years.
My attitude was originally more like "hey, you guys make the best games, but your last few consoles have had some problems you should address to improve the experience you provide to your customers." Nintendo even felt they needed to do something different with the Wii, I just strongly dislike the approach they chose.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 12, 2012, 03:14:00 PM
Are people actually arguing that Wii has had strong (or even adequate) software support over the past two years for core gamers? That the ongoing drought is acceptable? Seriously?
Depends on how you frame the argument. Some folks seem to think that Nintendo should return to the "good ol' days". Looking at it that way, Nintendo's pretty well in line with the "good ol' days" - which is pretty much my point. Nintendo is exactly what Nintendo has been.
How bad would it have sucked to have an NES in 1991, with the only Nintendo release that year being NES Open Tournament Golf? I mean, ouch.
The bigger issue is that folks want Nintendo to return to the NES/SNES era. The problem that so many people don't realize is that the policies that Nintendo had in play during this time frame were the exact reason so many long-term folks in the industry dislike Nintendo - to this very day.
Companies that had tons of hits on the NES readily jumped ship to the Genesis/Mega Drive as soon as they could. Likewise, as soon as Sony came calling, they jumped ship off the SNES (and many have never really looked back).
Nintendo got away with what they did during the NES-era (and, to some extent, the SNES-era) because they were the only game in town. You want to sell games? You play by our rules.
That's just not the case anymore.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2012, 05:38:11 PM
If I was going to write up a report card of Nintendo for the Gamecube era it would have had these points:
What you're doing wrong: - Third party support is not very strong. You have to be accomodating to provide incentive for third parties to support your system. Being stubborn and inflexible does not work. - You need to match industry standard features if all of your competitors offer it. Refusing to make online games was the wrong idea because the rest of the industry went with it. If you're the only one out, you're out of date and both third parties and potential customers will reject your system if it is out-of-date. - While you often have very creative ideas, this approach is not always necessary. You do not need to do everything in a unique way. You need to recognize when a new approach will improve something and when something is already being done in the most logical, conventional way it could be. If someone else is already doing something the ideal way to do it, just do it the same way. There is no benefit in something being different arbitrarily.
What you're doing right: - The games. Your games are often ambitious and creative and of a high quality. The controls are tight and responsive, the graphics are good, the games are often bug free. There is your greatest strength. Keep up the good work. - Your physical hardware is of good quality and is well-built and reliable. - When they aren't unique entirely for the sake of being unique, your ideas are often creative and fun. You have emormous potential for great ideas and just need a better filter to determine when to go forward with them.
Now after the Wii I would say:
What you're doing wrong: - All points in previous report are still a problem with no noticable improvement and in the case of third party support the situation has gotten worse. - The one thing you absolutely got right was the games but you now will intentionally make unambitious games for casuals and non-gamers. You have made titles like NSMB, which lack creativity, entirely because they will sell well. Corners are cut with titles like Pilotwings 3DS reusing elements from Wii Sports Resort. Outright low quality games like Donkey Kong Barrel Blast have been released. The standards of controls have fallen considerably with many games have loose, unresponsive controls to push gimmicky control schemes, without an option for responsive traditional controls. In fact Metroid Prime 3 is one of the only Wii core games that doesn't have the option for traditional controls that truly feels like it requires the new control scheme. Otherwise great games like Super Mario Galaxy and Donkey Kong Country Returns suffer from imprecise "waggle" controls that come across as unnecessary, with no alternate control scheme available.
What you're doing right: - Aside from the games, the items from the previous report have not diminished. - When none of the problems outlined above are present, you still appear to have the capacity to make great games.
So my general opinion of the Wii is that Nintendo fixed nothing and broke the one thing they did better than anything else.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2012, 05:46:31 PM
I want: - good third party support - industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers - a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals - for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)
Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes.
What? Yes, they are. With the except of the 2nd point (and even that's kind of iffy depending on what you consider a standard), every one of those things are subjective.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2012, 06:15:10 PM
I want: - good third party support - industry standard features and functionality that everyone else offers - a good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals - for Nintendo core games to not be altered negatively in a way to attract casuals (ie: dumbed down difficulty/complexity or forced gimmick controls; optional gimmick controls and optional items like the Super Guide are perfectly acceptable)
Give me that and we're fine and that's not specifically catered to my tastes.
What? Yes, they are. With the except of the 2nd point (and even that's kind of iffy depending on what you consider a standard), every one of those things are subjective.
How can we possibly discuss how good or bad Nintendo is without some level of subjectivity? Essentially any displeasure with Nintendo could then be defended away as "well, you're just asking Nintendo to cater specifically to you so your point is moot." I think my requests are quite broad. It's not like I said "never let Sakamoto make a Metroid again" or "stop making Mario Party games". See, THAT would be asking them to cater to my specific tastes.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 12, 2012, 07:11:36 PM
Nintendo needs better third party support to gain back more of the core market. Nintendo is not going to change their philosophy of making games for everyone. So they need the other companies to create the games catering to certain demographics. One the NES, yes Nintendo only released 1 game in 1991, but over 100 games were released for the system that year and at least 20 of those were high quality games that were liked by many. In 2012, the Wii has more 1st party games than the NES did in 1991, but the amount of good games released on the system total was far more than the Wii has had in the last 2-3 years.
It really all comes down to third party support. NES and SNES both had very good third party support as well as great Nintendo games. N64 had little 3rd party support but amazing Nintendo games. The GCN started with good third party support but that quickly ran dry and only had the Nintendo games again. The Wii had the worst third party support in regards to "core" gamers as that term was created because the Wii existed. GB,GBA,DS,3DS all have had great third party support in addition to the great Nintendo games and all of those have been considered great systems.
The systems that had bad years right before new hardware was coming out were the ones with bad third party support. If the Wii U gets the same games the PS360 get over the next 1-2 years and then also get the games that the PS4/Xbox420 get then they will be in good shape (as long as those third party games keep selling on their system). Otherwise, it will continue to be more of the same, regardless of how many systems the Wii U sells.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 12, 2012, 07:44:03 PM
They're broad requests but you demand very specific responses. "A good amount of ambitious and creative Nintendo games that are not aimed at casuals." What the hell does that even mean? That can be interpreted in any number of ways including how Nintendo is already doing things.
You don't allow for a lot of gray area reasoning. Everything is so black and white with you which I suppose makes your Batman avatar appropriate here. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. The reason I get into these debates with you is because I just don't understand your opinion. I don't have to agree with you to see where you're coming from. I think the reason I tend to disagree with you a lot is because I don't view things as absolutes.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 13, 2012, 01:45:52 AM
Okay, I did this for fun, not as a debate piece, so it's not perfect. Notably, because I quickly pulled the info from Wikipedia, some of the dates do not reflect the North American release date. Additionally, some of the publisher info might not be 100% (for example, if the game was published by one company in Japan and another company here in the states, it might be listed under one or the other companies.) It's not perfect, but I think it'll make an interesting jumping off point.
So - without further ado - stats! North American, Nintendo Published Titles by system, by year:
NES
-
68
SNES
-
44
N64
-
48
GCN
-
50
Wii
-
54
1985
-
18
1991
-
5
1996
-
6
2001
-
5
2006
-
6
1986
-
9
1992
-
7
1997
-
9
2002
-
9
2007
-
12
1987
-
8
1993
-
7
1998
-
8
2003
-
14
2008
-
6
1988
-
8
1994
-
11
1999
-
12
2004
-
8
2009
-
11
1989
-
7
1995
-
6
2000
-
12
2005
-
11
2010
-
10
1990
-
10
1996
-
6
2001
-
1
2006
-
3
2011
-
7
1991
-
1
1997
-
2
-
-
2012
-
2
1992
-
1
-
-
-
-
1993
-
3
-
-
-
-
1994
-
3
-
-
-
-
So... The Wii has had more Nintendo-published titles than ANY other system, aside from the NES which had a crazy amount of launch titles (18) and kept going for three years longer than any other Nintendo system (adding 7 more titles to the mix).
If anyone's super interested in the master list (in particular, editing the years for the releases), let me know and I can send you the spreadsheet....
*edit* - This doesn't include any digital titles, of which Nintendo is responsible for a small handful of awesome ones on the VC/WiiWare. Like Fluidity.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 13, 2012, 01:49:06 AM
For the reason above, the Wii was my second favorite Nintendo system just behind the Super Nintendo. It had Nintendo developing some of their best games and the Virtual Console was a great feature.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 13, 2012, 02:17:03 AM
Uncle Bob, another thing about your list that is probably off is that you are probably counting casual games like Wii Play/Fit/Sports/Music, Link's Crossbow Training, and so on, as well as ports or collections such as NPC Pikmin 2 or Metroid Trilogy. I don't think those should be counted as new games. If you take all of that out where would your stats stand then?
I appreciate the effort you put into it and it is very interesting, but as you yourself said its not accurate.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 13, 2012, 02:36:13 AM
Uncle Bob, another thing about your list that is probably off is that you are probably counting casual games like Wii Play/Fit/Sports/Music, Link's Crossbow Training, and so on, as well as ports or collections such as NPC Pikmin 2 or Metroid Trilogy. I don't think those should be counted as new games. If you take all of that out where would your stats stand then?
I appreciate the effort you put into it and it is very interesting, but as you yourself said its not accurate.
Why wouldn't those games count?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Tamazoid on June 13, 2012, 04:12:14 AM
So just because a game is targeted at a different demographic it isn't a game? That's a complete BS argument, the Wii series are video games whether you like it or not, they still take time to make it's not like Nintendo can press a magic button and a "Wii__" game pops out. Uncle Bob's list is listing the GAMES that Nintendo published for the Wii, nothing more or nothing less. NPC games are games published by Nintendo for the Wii.
Also no where in his list does it state these games are 'new'. You can't dispute the facts, Nintendo has published more games for the Wii than any system since the NES.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 13, 2012, 04:26:05 AM
I'm not arguing that those aren't GAMES. But they aren't "core" games, and I thought that's what we arguing about? If its not then I was mistaken about this whole conversation.
If you happen to love games like Chicken Shoot, Elf Bowling, Carnival Games, etc. then I'm sure you have no problem with the Wii's software library. Good for you. What about those who like more traditional games, though? Don't their opinions matter? Nintendo claims they are trying to target "everyone" with their software, but not "Everyone" is happy with these products. One size does not always fit all.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 13, 2012, 10:11:28 AM
That is an interesting question... If you take out ports/remakes, where do you stand with the NES? A good chunk of the early NES Library consisted of Nintendo putting their arcade titles on cartridge.
Plus, the NES had the "Games we're not counting as games because they don't interest me"... Duck Hunt (Wii Play), Dance Aerobics (Wii Fit), World Class Track Meet (Wii Sports), Barker Bill's Trick Shooting (Link's Crossbow Training). I suppose there isn't an equivalent to Wii Music on the NES though.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 13, 2012, 10:48:32 AM
Mario Paint.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 13, 2012, 12:05:15 PM
That would be on-par SNES wise. For the SNES, I'd pair Super Scope 6 with Wii Play, Yoshi's Safari with Link's Crossbow Training, the two Ken Griffey Jr. games, Super Tennis, and, perhaps, Kirby's Dream Course against Wii Sports. Not much of a game to compare to Wii Fit on the SNES front though.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 13, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
I'm not arguing that those aren't GAMES. But they aren't "core" games, and I thought that's what we arguing about? If its not then I was mistaken about this whole conversation.
If you happen to love games like Chicken Shoot, Elf Bowling, Carnival Games, etc. then I'm sure you have no problem with the Wii's software library. Good for you. What about those who like more traditional games, though? Don't their opinions matter? Nintendo claims they are trying to target "everyone" with their software, but not "Everyone" is happy with these products. One size does not always fit all.
I suggest you get the master spreadsheet from Uncle Bob and make this list yourself. It'll help you figure out your argument. I'd caution though that you figure it out for all the systems. Uncle Bob is right. There were a lot of games on the NES that pretty much mirror the "casual" games on the Wii.
Actually, history should show us that the Wii U will be awesome. The Wii has mirrored the NES pretty well with the casual and core games that they released. If history continues to repeat, the Wii U will be like the SNES in that it will have a lot more core games and be highly regarded as an amazing system because of the games. This is all my opinion. :)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 13, 2012, 01:34:57 PM
We can only hope that the Wii U is actually the "Super Wii".
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Drizzt on June 13, 2012, 01:46:48 PM
That'd be amazing.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 13, 2012, 02:07:23 PM
We can only hope that the Wii U is actually the "Super Wii".
Don't get Kytim's hopes up. He may go nuts.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: rlse9 on June 14, 2012, 01:07:58 AM
I think as much as the numbers themselves is the quality of games Nintendo has released on the Wii compared to the previous generations. It seemed like (and maybe I'm wrong and people will bring up examples showing it) for the N64 and Gamecube that if Nintendo developed and released a game, it was going to be good. It might not necessarily be a game I was interested in but it was a good game. With Wii that hasn't been true. Wii Music was pretty much universally considered horrible. Animal Crossing was one of their laziest releases ever, virtually a complete rehash. As much as I wanted to have fun with Wii Play, it was not good. Wii Party was received lukewarmly at best. Wii Fit was a great idea but Wii Fit Plus was another cash in that left so much untapped potential. Even their core series have been met with mixed reviews. That's not to say that they haven't delivered some amazing experiences this generation but it seems more hit and miss than it used to be.
The other than I look at that leaves me a little disappointed by the Wii isn't what is there but what isn't. How on earth did they not get around to releasing a new Pikmin game? It was their best new IP of last generation and a perfect fit for pointer controls. Where was Wave Race? The original was one of my favorite games for N64 and Blue Storm was a solid follow up. Where did Star Fox disappear to? I know the series dropped off a little on the Gamecube but why just ignore it instead of getting back to what made the earlier games so fun? Where is F Zero? How about new Mario Golf and Mario Tennis games? Wii Sports (and later the Tiger Woods games) showed that the Wii had perfect controls for these. I realize they don't have unlimited resources but it seems like with the huge success the Wii had they could have found ways to keep the games coming strong.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 14, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Wii Music is possibly my favorite game for the Wii. It's something unique and special and new to this world. It reminds me of Mario Paint, not directly, but emotionally. I can understand not everyone liking it, but I am a Nintendo fan and I'm glad it exists and I want more.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 14, 2012, 12:49:37 PM
You'd almost think, with all the complaining that Nintendo needs to try new things, Wii Music would have been celebrated. At the very least, some of the "try new things!" people would have given it a chance.
Too many people hated on the game based on the E3 performance and never gave it a second look.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 14, 2012, 12:53:16 PM
Wii Music is possibly my favorite game for the Wii. It's something unique and special and new to this world. It reminds me of Mario Paint, not directly, but emotionally. I can understand not everyone liking it, but I am a Nintendo fan and I'm glad it exists and I want more.
You aren't alone. But you are part of a very small minority.
(For what it's worth, I'd rather Nintendo not revisit Wii Music anytime soon. In my opinion the game isn't as horrible as most people suggest... but it's certainly not good either. There are much better things Nintendo first-party development studios could be working on.)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 14, 2012, 12:55:09 PM
I agree that they don't need to revisit Wii Music - but it'd be nice if they went head-on developing a game with the same mindset as it appears they used when they created Wii Music.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 14, 2012, 01:14:06 PM
The main reason I wasn't interested in Wii Music is because there was only Nintendo's own compositions, as well as a few public domain songs... who cares about "twinkle twinkle little star"? And another problem was there was no musical peripheral for it. No guitar accessory, no drums, no keyboard, no nothing. You do it with the wiimote/chuck. So that's two areas where it could have been hugely improved. If it was more like Guitar Hero or Rock Band and had popular modern songs people cared about and actual musical peripherals it could have been a very cool product.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 14, 2012, 01:34:12 PM
Wii Music just seemed like all the worst elements of casual gaming morphed into one title. Nintendo obviously cheaped out on the music licencing which is lame. Then there isn't really any "game" to it. You can't win or lose and there is no real tangible reward for skill or punishment for failure. You also don't really create music, you just kind of dictate the sounds. It isn't like you can compose your own material. To me it seemed pointless and it appears to practically play itself.
I wanted either a game or some sort of musical composition program and Wii Music was NEITHER. I still don't get the point of it. I've always felt that the Wii Series heavily implies that its target demo is helpless and stupid and needs its hand held at all times. That series is patronizing and I grew tired of being patronized when I was seven years old. Wii Music seems to be the worst offender for this and at the time I felt like Nintendo had pushed this "non-gamers are idiots" assumption too far.
I honestly think you can make games that appeal to this market that do not come across as dumbed down. Didn't Guitar Hero/Rock Band prove that? Clearly those are "real" games that require skill to succeed at and offer lots of options, depth and complexity for those that want it and casuals loved those games. Why did Nintendo think a non-gamer/casual music game had to be so simplistic when a much more complex music game already existed that non gamers and casuals were eating up with a spoon? Rock Band was already the Wii Music that Wii Sports fans wanted.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ThePerm on June 14, 2012, 02:11:56 PM
i havent played it, but that sounds terrible. Thats like when you go to the store and you're in the toy section and they have these kids cheap electronic instruments, and you cant play them, you just press a button and it plays music for you. Its like what type of bullshit is that? If i had a kid, id never give them bullshit like that. They would get real instruments that they could play. After all its fun figuring out songs, or just making noise, but you cant do those on those crappy things.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 14, 2012, 02:13:54 PM
Well Nintendo also released the Rhythm Heaven series this gen which is the most hardcore music related games on the market. Unlike Rock Band or Guitar Hero where people just hit the button when the game tells them two, Rhythm Heaven actually requires it's players to learn the actual rhythm of each song. Plus the later songs are quite brutal with some pretty complicated rhythms as well. Completing the Rhythm Heaven games require much more dedication and skill then any other music game released on the market.
This is why I always find it kind of ridiculous that people love to bring up Wii Music as an example of Nintendo at there worst, but hardly ever bring up Rhythm Heaven which is a good example of Nintendo at their best. Everyone loves to b!tch about Wii Music and ignores Rhythm Heaven even though Rhythm Heaven is the much superior Nintendo music game.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 14, 2012, 02:28:25 PM
I freely acknowledge that Wii Music isn't the sort of game that everyone will enjoy, or even understand. It's closer to interactive art in conjunction with software than it is traditional challenge-based gameplay. But that doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it as a longtime Nintendo fan, especially one who used to hook up his SNES to the VCR to create audio-visual title screens for family vacation videos with Mario Paint.
I can understand if Nintendo made more or less games for any one particular person in any one particular year. But that's just the way of life, not some personal affront to the world at large. Ultimately Nintendo is making creative, fun, and innovative titles, and they've been doing that for years, and I hope they keep doing that for years to come.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 14, 2012, 02:33:49 PM
The main reason I wasn't interested in Wii Music is because there was only Nintendo's own compositions, as well as a few public domain songs... who cares about "twinkle twinkle little star"? And another problem was there was no musical peripheral for it. No guitar accessory, no drums, no keyboard, no nothing. You do it with the wiimote/chuck. So that's two areas where it could have been hugely improved. If it was more like Guitar Hero or Rock Band and had popular modern songs people cared about and actual musical peripherals it could have been a very cool product.
So they should just copy Rock Band and not make a Nintendo game? If they did that, you'd complain that they didn't make a Nintendo game and just a clone of something you could already get with Rock Band.
Wii Music is so much different from other music games. It's not about trying to play songs that already exist, though you can do that. It's about taking that song and making it your own. It's about creativity and experimentation. It's about finding out if when you say you could make that song better, that you can back that up.
I feel like the reason Wii Music is hated is because nobody bothered to figure out how to play it. "You mean I don't get to play this licensed song exactly how it was originally done with a couple button presses? I'm not bothering with this then."
It's possibly one of the most ambitious games that Nintendo has done. That's probably the reason why it failed. Nintendo makes something new, but people hate. Then they complain about Nintendo never making anything new. The problem is that the "new" that they want Nintendo to make is basically clones of what everyone else makes.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 14, 2012, 02:48:11 PM
So they should just copy Rock Band and not make a Nintendo game? If they did that, you'd complain that they didn't make a Nintendo game and just a clone of something you could already get with Rock Band.
At least if they had copied Rock Band/Guitar hero it would have been an actual game. Would I complain about it being a rip off of those games? I don't know... maybe. But again, at least it would have been an actual game and something that was worth a crap as opposed to something no one can understand or make up their minds about what it actually even is.
I don't complain about Wii Music because its something I never tried because I had zero interest in it (for the reasons I pointed out above). Had it been a Rock Band clone I would have had more interest in it and maybe would have given it a try. If I tried it maybe I would have complained, but that would still bea huge improvement over Wii Music which I didn't even want to try period.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 14, 2012, 02:55:04 PM
I don't complain about Wii Music because its something I never tried because I had zero interest in it (for the reasons I pointed out above). Had it been a Rock Band clone I would have had more interest in it and maybe would have given it a try. If I tried it maybe I would have complained, but that would still bea huge improvement over Wii Music which I didn't even want to try period.
If you're stating this from a personal standpoint, I'm perfectly fine with that. I think it would be ridiculous to expect everyone to like every single Nintendo game ever made. Myself? I don't see what all the hub-bub about Metroid is. So sue me.
I just don't want think it makes sense to act as if Nintendo has all of a sudden been radically remade by some four-headed-Iwata-beast. (Hmmm... Iwata-beast. Yamauchi-saurus?)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 14, 2012, 03:37:06 PM
Unless Nintendo could do something really great with it, I sure didn't want Wii Music to be a Rock Band clone. I would have preferred something like a modern version of Mario Paint's music creator, but enhanced to justify it being its own game. If that had some sort of Rock Band-like game mode in it as well, all the better.
I wanted like a Nintendo synthesizer and the result was like those little kid music toys that Perm mentioned.
Soloing on a guitar is largely just going through scales. Stay in the right scale and whatever you do will sound in key. A music game that keeps the player in the scale but lets him **** around with whatever notes he wants in that scale would allow for non-musicians to jam but would have much more complexity and allow for actually writing original materal. Something like THAT would be much more interesting than what Wii Music has and would still have casual appeal.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 14, 2012, 03:49:26 PM
Off-topic comment:It's always interesting to see Wii Music discussed and try to guess how many people complaining have actually played the game before (or even after) forming their opinions. Most complaints are couched behind language that suggests people never gave the game a chance.
It's unlikely that the skeptics would be blown away by what Wii Music had to offer... but many of them might find the game is more interesting than they had expected if given a real chance.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 14, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
Off-topic comment:It's always interesting to Wii Music discussed and try to guess how many people complaining have actually played the game before (or even after) forming their opinions. Most complaints are couched behind language that suggests people never gave the game a chance.
It's unlikely that the skeptics would be blown away by what Wii Music had to offer... but many of them might find the game is more interesting they expected if they gave it a real chance.
Very much correct. 90% of the people against it never even picked up a Wiimote to try it or even a demo of it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 14, 2012, 04:40:11 PM
Soloing on a guitar is largely just going through scales. Stay in the right scale and whatever you do will sound in key. A music game that keeps the player in the scale but lets him **** around with whatever notes he wants in that scale would allow for non-musicians to jam but would have much more complexity and allow for actually writing original materal. Something like THAT would be much more interesting than what Wii Music has and would still have casual appeal.
But how do you pull that functionality off with a wiimote/chuck? That's why I said it needed some sort of musical instrument peripheral to go with it, even if it was just a simple plastic shell for the Wiimote to snap into.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 12:54:48 PM
Unless Nintendo could do something really great with it, I sure didn't want Wii Music to be a Rock Band clone. I would have preferred something like a modern version of Mario Paint's music creator, but enhanced to justify it being its own game. If that had some sort of Rock Band-like game mode in it as well, all the better.
Wii Music was like a coloring book. Without the actual scoring/game mechanic behind the Rock Band/Guitar Hero/Sing Star type games, I'm not sure how well they would have done with consumers either.
I wanted like a Nintendo synthesizer and the result was like those little kid music toys that Perm mentioned.
There's a lot that Nintendo could have done to make an attractive piece of software. Korg Ds10 did pretty well and that was pretty bare bones sonically. It was successful enough to even get a sequel.
Wether or not anyone thinks Wii Music is unfairly judged isn't really important. What is important is that Nintendo made something that people didn't WANT to play. Who was Wii Music for? There's little "game" there where people can do better or worse. Little in the way of creativity there since you can't compose your own music (something Mario Paint did offer). Who is the audience? People that have enough of an interest in music that they want to play along with public domain midi tunes but can't be bothered to turn off the tv or learn any sort of musical instrument? The Korg DS10 has a built in "kaos pad" which lets you play along and compose with very, very little musical knowledge.
I always see Nintendo talking about games that anyone CAN play and that's why certain considerations are made when it comes to design. Okay. Everyone CAN play with a baby's rattle but who would WANT to? Anyone can play Wii Music, but who would want to? Music software that offers no scoring system or creative control? Where do I not sign up!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 15, 2012, 01:08:30 PM
So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?
Sounds bland. I like the idea of Nintendo reaching out and developing new kinds of games that I don't know if I even want to play because they don't exist.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 15, 2012, 01:39:39 PM
What is important is that Nintendo made something that people didn't WANT to play.
Ummm... yeah. I don't know what to say about this if you really think it's unprecedented for Nintendo to make something that somebody out there isn't interested in playing...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2012, 02:00:34 PM
So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?
From what people are saying, its debatable whether Wii Music can even be considered a "game". Sounds like its a bit of "interactive art" that you fiddle around with for fun, but there is no scoring and you don't "win" or "lose".
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ThePerm on June 15, 2012, 02:10:19 PM
I've never heard of Rhythm Heaven till today, so maybe that's why people don't bring it up. as far as Music games go Nintendo does have Donkey Konga, though it should use more licensed songs than covers.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 15, 2012, 02:48:15 PM
Rhythm Heaven is awesome, BTW. Definitely pick up the one for DS if you want to have a good time.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 02:56:12 PM
So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?
Sounds bland. I like the idea of Nintendo reaching out and developing new kinds of games that I don't know if I even want to play because they don't exist.
You do know Nintendo used to use extensive market testing on their games, before releasing them, right? Nintendo used to care about what people thought of their games. Most of Nintendo's games, and all of their big sellers, are based on existing genres (Wii Sports (sports), Wii Fit (sports/fitness), NSMBWii (2d platformer), Mario Kart (arcade racing)). To say that Nintendo's mission statement is to make new types of games seems like a self induced delusion. 99.9% of all Nintendo games are made of existing, if not well established, ideas.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 03:00:47 PM
What is important is that Nintendo made something that people didn't WANT to play.
Ummm... yeah. I don't know what to say about this if you really think it's unprecedented for Nintendo to make something that somebody out there isn't interested in playing...
Do you think it is odd that a company lost a half billion dollars despite have a product that was sold out for 3 years and had 5 games selling over 20 million copies? Does that sound like a company that puts out games that people want to play or like a company that lost the plot?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 15, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?
Sounds bland. I like the idea of Nintendo reaching out and developing new kinds of games that I don't know if I even want to play because they don't exist.
You do know Nintendo used to use extensive market testing on their games, before releasing them, right? Nintendo used to care about what people thought of their games. Most of Nintendo's games, and all of their big sellers, are based on existing genres (Wii Sports (sports), Wii Fit (sports/fitness), NSMBWii (2d platformer), Mario Kart (arcade racing)). To say that Nintendo's mission statement is to make new types of games seems like a self induced delusion. 99.9% of all Nintendo games are made of existing, if not well established, ideas.
I'm not sure what posts you're reading, but apparently it's not mine.
I didn't say it was "Nintendo's mission statement" to try and create new types of games. I said I like the idea of Nintendo developing new types of games and trying new ideas. It's that simple. Yes, most of Nintendo's output is based off of something else... but that doesn't mean they should never try anything new just because people aren't asking for it. Did anyone ask for a platformer where you can't jump and have to buy each individual character for an additional $10 each? No... but it sure as heck sold like hotcakes and is a damn fun game as well.
If you are happy with repetitive game styles, I suggest trying out the Madden series.
So... you think Nintendo should only ever make games they know in advance people want to play?
From what people are saying, its debatable whether Wii Music can even be considered a "game". Sounds like its a bit of "interactive art" that you fiddle around with for fun, but there is no scoring and you don't "win" or "lose".
Hm. Sounds like Mario Paint.
Besides, I play video games to have fun... so if the purpose of this 'game' is to fiddle around for fun... yay!
What is important is that Nintendo made something that people didn't WANT to play.
Ummm... yeah. I don't know what to say about this if you really think it's unprecedented for Nintendo to make something that somebody out there isn't interested in playing...
Do you think it is odd that a company lost a half billion dollars despite have a product that was sold out for 3 years and had 5 games selling over 20 million copies? Does that sound like a company that puts out games that people want to play or like a company that lost the plot?
Why yes... a company with multiple million+ selling games *does* sound exactly like a company that puts out games people want to play.
Anyone know offhand, how many copies did WiiMusic sell?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 15, 2012, 03:37:54 PM
Unless Nintendo could do something really great with it, I sure didn't want Wii Music to be a Rock Band clone. I would have preferred something like a modern version of Mario Paint's music creator, but enhanced to justify it being its own game. If that had some sort of Rock Band-like game mode in it as well, all the better.
I wanted like a Nintendo synthesizer and the result was like those little kid music toys that Perm mentioned.
Soloing on a guitar is largely just going through scales. Stay in the right scale and whatever you do will sound in key. A music game that keeps the player in the scale but lets him **** around with whatever notes he wants in that scale would allow for non-musicians to jam but would have much more complexity and allow for actually writing original materal. Something like THAT would be much more interesting than what Wii Music has and would still have casual appeal.
Actually Nintendo made a game just like that for the DS called Band Brothers which got a sequel that also came out in Europe as Jam with the Band.
You could create your own music using a wide variety of instruments and it was a great series. It also had a wide variety of songs to play Rock Band style with the buttons as well. Sadly Reggie and NOA didn't feel the same way and it wasn't released in North America. Which is really sad because it was another amazing new IP Nintendo created and I say the best music creation video game ever made.
Of course since the DS isn't region locked if you really wanted to play it you can import Jam with the Band from Europe for a pretty cheap price since the game bombed badly over there. I'd reccomend trying to import it since from your description this is the exact kind of game you wanted Nintendo to make and they made it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
To be fair, Mario Paint did have a fly swatting mini game. I think there may have been some other stuff as well, but I can't quite remember off hand.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 04:10:18 PM
@ uncle bob Wether or not you find value in what nintendo does is up to you. I haven't seen anything resembling new from Nintendo in quite some time. If it makes you feel better to look down on people that like Madden, well, I guess that's the kind of person you are. Seems kind of pathetic but I don't care. Nintendo lost 1/2 billion dollars last year. They aren't doing something right. Wether or not you pretend that what nintendo does is worthwhile doesn't change the fact that they've lost money by not putting out games most people have an interest in playing.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 15, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Marty - for someone who's called me delusional and now pathetic, I don't think you have much of a right to worry about who I "look down on". However, let me make it clear - I never said anything negative about folks who choose to play Madden. I simply said if you prefer games that tread on old ground, Madden is the series for you.
I'm not sure how old you are, but something you learn as you get older is that correlation does not equal causation. When you fully understand that concept, then we can discuss -again- some of the reasons why Nintendo lost money in their previous physical year.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 15, 2012, 04:50:42 PM
@ uncle bob Wether or not you find value in what nintendo does is up to you. I haven't seen anything resembling new from Nintendo in quite some time. If it makes you feel better to look down on people that like Madden, well, I guess that's the kind of person you are. Seems kind of pathetic but I don't care. Nintendo lost 1/2 billion dollars last year. They aren't doing something right. Wether or not you pretend that what nintendo does is worthwhile doesn't change the fact that they've lost money by not putting out games most people have an interest in playing.
The reasons for Nintendo's lose of money last year was because of the terrible 3DS sales for the 5 months after launch, the money being spend on Wii U development and the stronger Yen compared to the Euro and Dollar causing them to get f*cked over with exchange rates.
In terms of actual software sold they're still the strongest company in gaming.
Here's what just their million sellers for their last fiscal year were. (April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012)
Nintendo DS
Pokemon Black and White - 3.2 million (14.71 million lifetime total)
New Super Mario Bros - 2.21 million (29.09 million lifetime total)
Mario Kart DS - 1.53 million (22.57 million lifetime total)
Kirby Mass Attack - 1.06 million
Nintendo 3DS
Super Mario 3D Land - 5.84 million
Mario Kart 7 - 5.24 million
Ocarina of Time 3D - 2.61 million
Pokemon Rumble Blast - 1.08 million
Wii
Mario Kart Wii - 5.43 million (32.44 million lifetime total)
New Super Mario Bros Wii - 4.32 million (26.26 million lifetime total)
Skyward Sword - 3.52 million
Wii Sports - 2.84 million (79.60 million lifetime total)
Wii Sports Resort - 2.46 million (30.14 million lifetime total)
Wii Party - 2.17 million (7.94 million lifetime total)
Wii Fit Plus - 2 million (20.48 million lifetime total)
Super Mario Galaxy - 1.36 million (10.68 million lifetime total)
Kirby's Return to Dream Land - 1.31 million
Wii Play: Motion - 1.26 million
As you can see, Nintendo is still clearly doing something right. What games exactly are you talking about because from the actual sales data, they're still making a lot of games most people have an interest in playing.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 15, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
Anyone know offhand, how many copies did WiiMusic sell?
Last I heard, more than 2.5 million worldwide.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 05:13:11 PM
@uncle bob
I find it amusing to see that you will differentiate yourself from someone playing madden because they're missing out on "new experiences" on a board where you defend a company that's put out 10+ Mario Party games. That imagined difference is ridiculous. I found THAT pathetic. I don't know if YOU are a pathetic person. I'm not into making such assumptions.
Nintendo didn't sell enough games to cover their costs. That's why they lost money. IT IS delusional to try and come up with other reasons why that is the case. The Wii didn't have any system sellers nor did the DS or, to any significant extent, the 3DS. Again, I'm not applying any sort of quantity to you, personally, but to deny the reality that Nintendo lost money because they didn't sell enough games is delusional. Nintendo makes their money selling games, ergo, if they lose money, they didn't sell enough games. If they didn't sell enough games, it's because they didn't release games people would buy.
If you feel personally insulted by someone calling your opinions garbage, maybe you need to take a break from the internet. Maybe spend some time coming up with better opinions rather than ducking out of conversation based on some perceived slight and claiming yourself to be too mature to have your opinions challenged by someone who disagrees with you.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: marty on June 15, 2012, 05:28:30 PM
The reasons for Nintendo's lose of money last year was because of the terrible 3DS sales for the 5 months after launch, the money being spend on Wii U development and the stronger Yen compared to the Euro and Dollar causing them to get f*cked over with exchange rates.
Nintendo always has development costs, those costs are nothing new for the company. The exchange rate will never translate a sale into a loss, so treating it like an expense seems silly.
Kirby Mass Attack - 1.06 millionSuper Mario 3D Land - 5.84 million Mario 3D Kart - 5.24 million Ocarina of Time 3D - 2.61 million Pokemon Rumble Blast - 1.08 million Skyward Sword - 3.52 million Kirby's Return to Dream Land - 1.31 million
As you can see, Nintendo is still clearly doing something right. What games exactly are you talking about because from the actual sales data, they're still making a lot of games most people have an interest in playing.
Nintendo's 2011 is sequels and ports. And all of those games were outsold by Just Dance, and MW3 outsold all those games combined. When Nintendo can sell 20+ million copies of a game, sales like that are bad. When you lose $500,000,000+ dollars, you're not doing that good. I doubt Nintendo is happy with those numbers. Why should I pretend they're good?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 15, 2012, 05:58:01 PM
lol.
For the record, I own 5 Mario Party games. 1 N64, 1 Wii, 1 e-Reader and 2 GameCube. I own 2 GameCube Mario Parties because I bought #5 when it launched and years later, got #4 at K-mart in a bundle with a WaveBird for $15.
Anyone who wants to play Mario Party over and over - sure... buy every single release. Nothing against it. Anyone who wants to play Madden every year - go for it.
Games like this are typically a "once a generation" thing for me - simply because they do cover a lot of the same ground (Mario Party-e excluded, of course). I've nothing against anyone who likes to play the same game or a slightly different version of it - over and over. It's just not for me. That's why I own many, many games (Don't asky why I own about 30 different versions of Super Mario Bros. though.)
I'm just glad that Nintendo is trying new things occasionally. Even if it's something I don't much care for (Wii Fit, for example).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 15, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
Marty, to put your argument of if a company loses money, they aren't doing it right into perspective, you are basically saying that all three console maker are doing it wrong. All three lost money in 2011. Sony and M$ both sited lower sales in their games division as part of the cause of the lost money.
This must mean that nobody is making games that people want (at least not console makers).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 01:59:54 AM
Regardless of whether the lack of games was the reason Nintendo has been losing money, or if its just due to currency exchange or some mumbo jumbo voodoo economics, the fact of the matter is Nintendo's lineup this year and last year has been paltry to say the least. People aren't going to buy games if they don't exist. What I find unforgivable is there are games like Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow which DO exist and have existed for quite some time, but NOA refuses to deliver them. NOA would rather give its audience absolutely NOTHING rather than deliver games which already exist and are only waiting for localization. I understand it costs some money to localize games, but sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money. One thing that should be common sense to anyone is that you aren't going to make money if you aren't delivering any sort of product to the market. That's a fact.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 16, 2012, 02:25:36 AM
Regardless of whether the lack of games was the reason Nintendo has been losing money, or if its just due to currency exchange or some mumbo jumbo voodoo economics, the fact of the matter is Nintendo's lineup this year and last year has been paltry to say the least. People aren't going to buy games if they don't exist. What I find unforgivable is there are games like Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow which DO exist and have existed for quite some time, but NOA refuses to deliver them.NOA would rather give its audience absolutely NOTHING rather than deliver games which already exist and are only waiting for localization. I understand it costs some money to localize games, but sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money. One thing that should be common sense to anyone is that you aren't going to make money if you aren't delivering any sort of product to the market. That's a fact.
Fatal Frame 4 and Captain Rainbow weren't released in Europe either so those are terrible examples to use. Nether game has an English translation anywhere in the world so it's not like Xenoblade and The Last Story which could easily get brought over. Plus we've been over this a million times but Fatal Frame 4 was planned on being released in America and Europe but the game ended up being a buggy mess which NCL forbit from leaving Japan until Tecmo fixed the bugs but Tecmo refused so it never came. Did you get that, NOA can't bring Fatal Frame 4 over because NCL is blocking it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ShyGuy on June 16, 2012, 02:34:55 AM
Marty! Hey everyone it's Marty!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 02:35:44 AM
Who here thinks an English release of Captain Rainbow stateside would outsell Wii Music?
Talk about releasing games "no one" wants.
And this is coming from someone who'd be there at midnight to get Captain Rainbow.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 02:43:40 AM
Nether game has an English translation anywhere in the world so it's not like Xenoblade and The Last Story which could easily get brought over.
That's a crap excuse, and deep down you know it. I think we had this same argument about Xenoblade and TLS back before they were announced and as I recall you came up with excuses defending NOA for not bringing them over even though the localization was already done courtesy of NOE. So even when there is an English localization you still will defend NOA.
And as for the localizations not already being done by NoE, are you telling me NoA is incapable of doing it themselves? Must NoE hold their hand and do all the work for them? NoA needs to step up to the plate and stop making excuses. They are supposed to be just as capable of doing localizing and NoE, so what's the deal? That's like a kid having another kid do their homework for them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ShyGuy on June 16, 2012, 02:47:20 AM
Why do you want the Wii U to fail Chozo?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 03:08:01 AM
Because Nintendo doesn't make games he likes anymore. So, instead of playing games from all the other companies out there that he likes, he wants Nintendo's new venture to fail so that anyone who enjoys the games Nintendo is making now can't enjoy new games.
Basically, it's "If I can't have her, then no one can!" - except instead of her running away from the relationship, he's just unhappy in the relationship and either wants to force her to change or let her die off so he can go find some cheap thrills with the other developers.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 03:21:52 AM
Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 16, 2012, 03:38:24 AM
LOL doesn't this seem familiar.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 16, 2012, 03:58:22 AM
Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?
Good. Don't argue then. You're coming across as somewhat obnoxious anyway.
I could say the same about you.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 16, 2012, 10:27:20 AM
This thread is degenerating rapidly, but I do wish Nintendo would choose to bring out more core games.
In some cases that means doing the localization themselves, in other cases just bringing games over from other regions. Fatal Frame 4, Project Zero 2, and Pandora's Tower are all good examples of games that would appeal to a more mature audience and could sell enough to support a limited release - and even Xenoblade and The Last Story are good examples as Nintendo of America would've sat on both games if not for third parties pushing to have them release.
Some of these games are might have limited appeal or only hit a smaller-than-average market for Nintendo, but there is (arguably) value in supporting and expanding your core audience even if it means taking a short-term loss. That's not Nintendo's business plan though, and it's hard to fault them for pushing to have million sellers instead of using limited resources on more niche games.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 16, 2012, 10:50:59 AM
To be fair, Nintendo had no problems releasing Fatal Frame IV outside of Japan, but only if Tecmo fixed the bugs in the game (which Tecmo refused to do).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 10:52:58 AM
That said, I do want the Wii U to fail because it would be a wake up call and it would force them to reconsider their focus and start catering to their core gamers.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 11:02:25 AM
You have to understand I said that in the context of the incredibly disappointing showing of the Wii U at E3, and I only meant that if the Wii U ends up being the casual shovelware only system that the Wii has mostly become. This is by no means set in stone and so my final opinion on the Wii U is still very much subject to change.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 11:22:05 AM
I believe the quote went on to how you wanted Iwata and Reggie to get fired and such...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 16, 2012, 11:31:03 AM
To be fair, Nintendo had no problems releasing Fatal Frame IV outside of Japan, but only if Tecmo fixed the bugs in the game (which Tecmo refused to do).
There are different accounts about just how valid this statement is. Personally I doubt that it is anywhere close to the whole truth since bugs didn't prevent or significantly delay a Japanese release - but it could be. I'd bet on Nintendo of America not projecting it to be profitable enough, and then using unreasonable demands on the developers as an excuse for not publishing. Shady? Maybe, but that kind of stuff happens all the time. Sadly, us "outside the know" people will probably never really know the whole truth about why it will never be released here.
Assuming what you say is accurate then it's a shame that Nintendo didn't at least try to sell the rights to other companies who might find a niche release like Fatal Frame 4 worthwhile. That would've made core gamers happy and would've given Nintendo some return - as opposed to the gamer frustration and complete lack of profit they chose to take instead.
I know, I know... not Nintendo's business model. But as a gamer who wanted the game and would've been happy to take even with some minor bugs, the "just don't give them anything" business model isn't really working for me.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 11:34:50 AM
I don't often bother to link to Pietriots because I know we've got a bit of crossover between them and those who don't go there likely won't... understand them...
But this (http://pietriots.com/2012/06/16/nintendo-needs-you-to-shut-up/) is win.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: n-phage on June 16, 2012, 11:42:33 AM
I hate how some of you keep saying that the Wii had nothing but shovelware. I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual. Maybe instead of worrying about all of the games that weren't being released on the Wii you should have tried some that were. Maybe then you would be more satisfied with it like I am. And if you aren't satisfied with Nintendo anymore then go buy another system and move on with your life. No one is forcing you to buy Nintendo's systems or games. Coming here and arguing isn't going to change anything.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 11:51:22 AM
Regardless of whatever bugs Fatal Frame 4 may have had, Metroid Other M had a serious game killing bug which makes the game unbeatable and the only option is to start over from the beginning. I would consider that a very serious bug, yet Nintendo shipped Other M without any fuss.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 12:03:58 PM
Yes, once the bug was discovered, Nintendo should have immediately built a time machine and went back and stopped the release of Other M.
Unless you've got evidence that the game breaking bug was known of before Other M was released. Like the Fatal Frame bugs that Nintendo knew about... before it was released overseas.
Info on the Fatal Frame bugs: http://andriasang.com/coltvv/nintendo_discloses_fatal_frame_bugs/
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 12:06:53 PM
Yes, once the bug was discovered, Nintendo should have immediately built a time machine and went back and stopped the release of Other M.
Unless you've got evidence that the game breaking bug was known of before Other M was released. Like the Fatal Frame bugs that Nintendo knew about... before it was released overseas.
That's exactly my point. Other M had a simultaneous worldwide release. If Fatal Frame 4 had a simultaneous release as well then it would have shipped before the bugs were discovered and we wouldn't have gotten ripped off with no game at all.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 12:20:09 PM
So, why did Temco/Grasshopper not work on the localization of the game simultaneously when creating the Japanese version?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ThomasO on June 16, 2012, 12:23:15 PM
I hate how some of you keep saying that the Wii had nothing but shovelware. I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual. Maybe instead of worrying about all of the games that weren't being released on the Wii you should have tried some that were. Maybe then you would be more satisfied with it like I am. And if you aren't satisfied with Nintendo anymore then go buy another system and move on with your life. No one is forcing you to buy Nintendo's systems or games. Coming here and arguing isn't going to change anything.
While I agree with you, you will go ignored, unfortunately (it's already happening).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 12:26:21 PM
I only have about 70 Wii titles.
Considering the system has been on the market slightly less than 67 months, I say one game a month isn't bad. :D
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 01:04:48 PM
And this is coming from someone who'd be there at midnight to get Captain Rainbow.
T_T. I'll be there at midnight Captain Rainbow. You won't go friendless in this world!
The point isn't whether a game sells well or not. The point is that Nintendo keeps creating fun and innovating game play and that they're free to do so. Naturally this means I want them to sell well enough to make money. But I also want them to take risks on really unique titles and give innovation a chance, regardless of if it sometimes sells like a Captain Rainbow instead of a Wii Music.
I have about 80 games for my Wii and I guarantee that the majority of it isn't shovelware or casual.
Hey, same here! We should form a club or something.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 01:23:24 PM
That was more in reply to the idea that Nintendo is making games people don't want.
People wanted Wii Music more than they'd want Captain Rainbow.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: SixthAngel on June 16, 2012, 01:24:24 PM
I am tired of all the bitching I see around the internet too. Most of it is concern trolling by people who have no interest in Nintendo anything and never have.
One thing I noticed with the Wii is how much people on the internet who play games care about PR. They could be getting big piles of **** shoved down their throat but they will jump and cheer as long the companies proclaim loudly that they really care about this **** and pinched it especially them. Nintendo can give them the steak they claim they love but because they don't make it the centerpiece of their PR people go crazy that Nintendo doesn't care about them. They are all "I'm a hardcore gamerz, I don't care that you just made the kind of game I'm supposed to like, I need you to proclaim in front of the world that you care about me and I'm the most important to you."
Also, mark me down as someone who has enough Wii games I got cheap I haven't even played them all yet.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
I would also buy Captain Rainbow, that's why I brought it up. Same goes for Fatal Frame 4. The bottom line is I WANT these games to exist and to be able to buy them, but someone (whether that's Reggie or NOA as a whole, I don't know) won't let me. Instead, we get about 5 games out of Nintendo a year and that's it. I really don't want the Wii U to end up being a repeat of this generation. That was why I said I wanted it to fail, but ONLY if that's the case. Otherwise I want it to not only succeed but also be number 1.
I just don't see how likely that will be though as long as Reggie is running NOA and not giving us the games we all want to play. I mentioned two games and many people agreed with me they want to play these games and want to buy them, so the demand is there. There shouldn't have to be major fan campaigns such as Operation Rainfall to convince Reggie to do what he should be doing anyway, because that is his job.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 01:35:49 PM
Games we want to play doesn't always equal games that sell well. If Nintendo wants to be #1, they have to find the right balance.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 01:56:04 PM
The bottom line is I WANT these games to exist and to be able to buy them, but someone (whether that's Reggie or NOA as a whole, I don't know) won't let me. ... There shouldn't have to be major fan campaigns such as Operation Rainfall to convince Reggie to do what he should be doing anyway, because that is his job.
I don't think anyone here is complaining about the benefits of operation Rainfall. And I don't think that Nintendo fans will soon forget the painful empty place in our hearts reserved for Mother 3. I definitely don't think Nintendo is perfect, or that they don't possess qualities we shouldn't criticize them for.
But this thread is talking about "bitching," which isn't level-headed, realistic critique and discussion. I completely respect your fears that the Wii U will end up resembling the Wii more than is good for it, and I can understand where they come from. I may not share them, but I'm thrilled to be discussing them genially. That doesn't worry me. I'm concerned with irrational vitriol that destroys the tone of a bunch of Nintendo fans who earnestly and honestly want discuss and think about Nintendo.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Phil on June 16, 2012, 02:29:43 PM
Obviously Uncle Bob knows more about what I think than I do, so what's the point of me arguing?
Good. Don't argue then. You're coming across as somewhat obnoxious anyway.
I could say the same about you.
See? This is my point. All you said in this post is "no u" basically. And you constantly whine about every move Nintendo makes (some make sense, but when you bitch about EVERYTHING, it gets easier to ignore you like the boy who cried "I want Wii U to fail"), post false "facts" that are purely your opinion and not based in reality (such as the Wii being mostly a casual shovelware-only platform), ignore arguments or act obtuse to the ones that go against your agenda, and so forth. Forget what I said about coming across as somewhat obnoxious-- you ARE obnoxious. Congrats.
And "no u" is such a pathetic comeback, which is what your post essentially was. I haven't posted enough to be as obnoxious as you are, bud. I had more to say, but I think I'm just going to ignore your comments from here on out. They are usually not based in reality anyway.
EDIT: Sorry to go off-topic. Hopefully the topic can go back on the rails. The sales of games like the ultra niche Captain Rainbow and Fatal Frame 4 would be more trouble than they are worth. Perhaps they could put them on the Wii U downloadable service instead of as a Wii retail game?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 02:52:19 PM
Games we want to play doesn't always equal games that sell well. If Nintendo wants to be #1, they have to find the right balance.
You need to keep in mind Nintendo already made the investment to have these games made in the first place, and then ONLY released them in Japan where I guess they more or less flopped. I don't know how well they would do outside of Japan, but putting them in more markets mean more sales. Is that enough to offset the investment they placed in making them in the first place? I don't know, but it would put them at least closer to the black.
The only thing these games have to do in order to be worth the trouble is sell enough to recoup the localization costs. Considering how many people in this thread alone have said they would buy the game on release date I think that is doable. I'm not expecting them to sell a million copies, but I'm sure they could still sell enough to be worth the trouble.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 16, 2012, 04:14:10 PM
That's not true. Games have to turn a profit to be worth the trouble. Have to. Otherwise, they failed as products in a competitive marketplace. This isn't art for art's sake. We don't live in that kind of idealized world. If Nintendo doesn't believe a particular game is going to turn a profit which includes recouping the collective cost of bringing a game over as a start, then they're not bringing a game over. It's that easy. I don't understand how you don't get that. Nintendo isn't just being mean to people like yourself. They're not withholding games just to **** with anyone; they have a responsibility to the company that employs them. You might disagree, but these people do this for a living. They're employed because they're better at making these decisions than fans are. If they don't do their jobs well, they could all be handed pink slips. That might not be a major issue for someone like Reggie who makes as much as he does (whatever that is, probably 6-7 figures), but a lot of people work for him. He's responsible for them. So, sometimes that involves doing something unpopular with a segment of their fanbase who dig niche games. Ultimately, the world doesn't stop for anyone and Nintendo knows that. Vote with your dollars. Empty threats (like those who claimed they would boycott Skyward Sword then subsequently did not) won't change anything. I was particularly upset about Mother 3 not coming to NA yet I still probably gave Nintendo more money in the last 6 years than I ever have before. We're all to blame. We buy the big games; we don't buy the niche games. We're telling Nintendo what we want. And that's what we get. I hope Xenoblade and The Last Story do well because that sends a message. I bought Xenoblade. I did my part. I did not buy Xenosaga. I did not do my part and that series is dead, like so many others. The RPGs boom ended and that's why we almost didn't Xenoblade. This isn't rocket science. I'm simplifying it, but it's not much more complicated than I'm making it. Cause and effect.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 04:28:47 PM
All I have to say is that if sales for Xenoblade and The Last Story don't convince Nintendo that console titles beyond the mass market are worth bringing to NA, than this is no longer a company I want to follow. I certainly enjoy my Metroids, Zeldas, etc. but I also enjoy the more niche titles that NoA seems to have to be forced at gunpoint these days to bring over. The fans and GameStop had to bribe Nintendo to finally bring Xenoblade over (despite NoE already paying for the localization costs), and who knows what hoops XSEED had to jump through to get The Last Story over here. And both of those were AAA Nintendo-published titles in Japan, so if that's what it takes to get those titles these days the future doesn't look bright with Wii U in NA.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 04:44:23 PM
That's not true. Games have to turn a profit to be worth the trouble. Have to.
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I'll explain it again and hopefully this time you will understand. Nintendo ALREADY put in the investment for these games to be made, yet they ONLY released them in Japan. I'm going on the assumption they were unprofitable, or perhaps only broke even at best because sales were under 100k, but I don't know how much it cost them to make them or how much money they've made from the sales.
With that being said, my point is that even if Nintendo won't profit by bringing those games over here, they can at least CUT THEIR LOSSES and so even if they aren't able to make the games profitable, at least they can reduce the loss and that would still be worth the trouble.
Now do you see what I'm saying? The games are already done. Whether the investment was profitable or unprofitable, I don't really know, but Nintendo has only released these games in Japan so they didn't even have a fair chance to reach their full potential. Maybe in western markets their performance would have been better?
Once again let me say this: even if bringing these games over here doesn't make the entire investment profitable, as long as they would make enough money to overcome the localization costs it would still be worth Nintendo's trouble, because even if they don't make the entire investment profitable, they would still at least mitigate the losses. Do you see what I'm saying? As long as they sell well enough to make back the localization costs then its worth it. And I think that is VERY MUCH doable.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 05:03:46 PM
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I'll explain it again and hopefully this time you will understand. Nintendo ALREADY put in the investment for these games to be made, yet they ONLY released them in Japan. ... With that being said, my point is that even if Nintendo won't profit by bringing those games over here, they can at least CUT THEIR LOSSES and so even if they aren't able to make the games profitable, at least they can reduce the loss and that would still be worth the trouble.
That's not guaranteed. Nintendo could easily lose even MORE money by localizing certain things on other markets, and spending on distribution, time, effort, manpower, etc. That's even assuming they're not too busy with other things anyways. This is why the saying exists: "Throwing good money after bad", or, more academically, the "sunk cost fallacy."
I'm not saying I'm not disappointed in a Nintendo that isn't releasing either Disaster: Day of Crisis or Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy RupeeLand over here. I'm saying I can understand why they would make such a decision, respect their differing viewpoint on it just like I respect other people's differing opinions, and hope that someday in the future they change their mind and start giving me games like Face Training DS.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 16, 2012, 05:40:10 PM
No, I didn't miss your point. I got it, but Nintendo of America absolutely must turn a profit bringing the games over in order for NCL to "cut their losses." You say it's doable and maybe it is. Maybe. This is the important part: what if they don't? Then, they just lost money; more money than they originally lost. And that's where they're coming from. Nintendo of America didn't believe in a product to perform well in a market that typically ignores these types of games and has ignored these types of games for a number of years. They did exactly what a company should do. I don't know how Xenoblade performed in Japan, but if it underperformed in it's native market, where all of Nintendo expected the game to perform well, that's even less reason for Nintendo of America to bring the game over. If anything less than a profit is expected, no game.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 05:48:37 PM
I'm not saying that NoA made the right choice. I'm just saying that even though I may disagree with them, I respect that the decision is ultimately theirs to make.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 16, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
What we need is an Operation Rainbow, because a rainbow is what you get after Rainfall and Operation Rainfall was a huge success, so a similar thing wouldn't be a bad idea. Calling it Operation Rainbow also works well as the name because one of the target games is Captain Rainbow, so the name would work on two different levels.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 16, 2012, 06:18:32 PM
I'm not saying that NoA made the right choice. I'm just saying that even though I may disagree with them, I respect that the decision is ultimately theirs to make.
I think they made the right choice as a business even if I really wanted the games as a fan.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 06:34:12 PM
Wow. Some people don't understand much about business.
If I have five employees and I can put them to work making red widgets that I'll sell 50 of, or black widgets I can sell 1,000 of, do my shareholders want me to make black widgets or red ones?
Sure, I can probably turn a profit off the red ones, but when investors found out, then I'd be out of a job.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 06:48:58 PM
Wow. Some people don't understand much about business.
If I have five employees and I can put them to work making red widgets that I'll sell 50 of, or black widgets I can sell 1,000 of, do my shareholders want me to make black widgets or red ones?
Sure, I can probably turn a profit off the red ones, but when investors found out, then I'd be out of a job.
The problem is that if all you make is generic black widgets, people get tired of them and their lack of ambition and stop buying them. You need the variety of the red, blue, green, and yellow widgets to keep the market fresh. There's good reason why, despite their insane sales numbers, Nintendo doesn't just make Mario Kart and 2D Mario games. And, frankly, Nintendo makes enough of an insane amount of money on those sure-fire, painfully-bland hits that they can stand to take some risks every now and then on less-LCD titles that appeal to more specific audiences.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 06:51:27 PM
If I have five employees and I can put them to work making red widgets that I'll sell 50 of, or black widgets I can sell 1,000 of, do my shareholders want me to make black widgets or red ones?
The problem is that if all you make is generic black widgets, people get tired of them and their lack of ambition and stop buying them. You need the variety of the red, blue, green, and yellow widgets to keep the market fresh. There's good reason why, despite their insane sales numbers, Nintendo doesn't just make Mario Kart and 2D Mario games. And, frankly, Nintendo makes enough of an insane amount of money on those sure-fire, painfully-bland hits that they can stand to take some risks every now and then on less-LCD titles that appeal to more specific audiences.
Yes. I agree. MORE WII MUSIC!!!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 16, 2012, 06:55:04 PM
I think people read too much into Nintendo's reluctance to bring over Xenoblade and The Last Story. I think if those games had come out in 2008 Nintendo wouldn't have thought twice about releasing them here. Their hesitation now was based on a very different fiscal situation, where they were already losing money, and the shrinking market for that kind of game on the Wii.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
I was going to say this earlier, but there really didn't seem to be much point at the time: Yes, including more experiments like Wii Music. My problem with that game wasn't that it existed, but that the execution was so lackluster. It's an experience that probably could have been amazing if Nintendo was willing to be more ambitious than they were and added more features and more of a "music teaching" experience. The kind of "free play" feel that the original game had would have been fine if there was simply more there for people who actually wanted to learn about music and wanted a deeper experience. Plus, that game needed a much deeper song list than the dregs of public domain music.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Mop it up on June 16, 2012, 07:02:27 PM
I thought "Happy Birthday" was a licenced song now.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 16, 2012, 07:04:54 PM
The problem is that if all you make is generic black widgets, people get tired of them and their lack of ambition and stop buying them. You need the variety of the red, blue, green, and yellow widgets to keep the market fresh. There's good reason why, despite their insane sales numbers, Nintendo doesn't just make Mario Kart and 2D Mario games. And, frankly, Nintendo makes enough of an insane amount of money on those sure-fire, painfully-bland hits that they can stand to take some risks every now and then on less-LCD titles that appeal to more specific audiences.
Seriously, is there a reason some of you act like Project P-100 doesn't exist? Yeah it being made by Kamiya and Platinum but Nintendo is funding the game and own the IP now. Just because some of you hate NSMB and Wii Fit doesn't give you the right to ignore a new Nintendo IP being made by the greatest action designer in the industry.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: SixthAngel on June 16, 2012, 07:09:17 PM
How did the antibitching thread turn into a bitching thread and about Captain Rainbow of all things?
I hoped to actually not have to read the endless bitching in a thread made to be against it but instead it has devolved into an argument about Captain Rainbow aka the game nobody outside of 3 people in this forum actually care comes out.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Mop it up on June 16, 2012, 07:10:34 PM
Make that 4 people.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 07:13:31 PM
Seriously, is there a reason some of you act like Project P-100 doesn't exist?
Is there a reason why Nintendo acts like Project P-100 doesn't exist? Look at how much faith Nintendo apparently has in that project: they couldn't even be bothered to mention that it exists in their big Wii U E3 press conference. Instead, they devoted time to a pointless, year-old Batman: AA port that will probably sell even worse than Xenoblade and The Last Story and a reading of the g-damn Luigi's Mansion Nintendoland Mini-game Instruction Booklet. Yeah, Nintendo's really going to be behind that game all the way.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: SixthAngel on June 16, 2012, 07:24:50 PM
Seriously, is there a reason some of you act like Project P-100 doesn't exist?
Is there a reason why Nintendo acts like Project P-100 doesn't exist? Look at how much faith Nintendo apparently has in that project: they couldn't even be bothered to mention that it exists in their big Wii U E3 press conference. Instead, they devoted time to a pointless, year-old Batman: AA port that will probably sell even worse than Xenoblade and The Last Story and a reading of the g-damn Luigi's Mansion Nintendoland Mini-game Instruction Booklet. Yeah, Nintendo's really going to be behind that game all the way.
Its not enough that Nintendo makes a game you want when there is nothing like it anywhere else, they need to make you feel good too by pretending it is hugely important compared to getting big third parties with graphics and their planned biggest title.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 16, 2012, 07:26:07 PM
Seriously, is there a reason some of you act like Project P-100 doesn't exist?
Is there a reason why Nintendo acts like Project P-100 doesn't exist? Look at how much faith Nintendo apparently has in that project: they couldn't even be bothered to mention that it exists in their big Wii U E3 press conference. Instead, they devoted time to a pointless, year-old Batman: AA port that will probably sell even worse than Xenoblade and The Last Story and a reading of the g-damn Luigi's Mansion Nintendoland Mini-game Instruction Booklet. Yeah, Nintendo's really going to be behind that game all the way.
Doesn't change the fact they're still funding and publishing the game. Plus why should you care how much advertising they give it, it's still a Nintendo game you already know about anyway. Since the whole argument you and others are making is Nintendo should release more niche titles and in this case they are releasing a more niche title from a famous developer. Does the amount of advertising Nintendo gives their games effect your enjoyment of them now?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 16, 2012, 07:30:35 PM
I don't think just because Nintendo didn't show P-100 at the Press Conference means they don't have faith in the game. They ARE paying millions of dollars developing it after all. AND they exclusively revealed it RIGHT AFTER the Press Conference to Spike TV, where it could be argued they believed was a more traditional gamer venue.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 07:36:31 PM
Wow. Some people don't understand much about business.
If I have five employees and I can put them to work making red widgets that I'll sell 50 of, or black widgets I can sell 1,000 of, do my shareholders want me to make black widgets or red ones?
Sure, I can probably turn a profit off the red ones, but when investors found out, then I'd be out of a job.
The problem is that if all you make is generic black widgets, people get tired of them and their lack of ambition and stop buying them. You need the variety of the red, blue, green, and yellow widgets to keep the market fresh. There's good reason why, despite their insane sales numbers, Nintendo doesn't just make Mario Kart and 2D Mario games. And, frankly, Nintendo makes enough of an insane amount of money on those sure-fire, painfully-bland hits that they can stand to take some risks every now and then on less-LCD titles that appeal to more specific audiences.
When people get tired of Black Widgets, then we'll talk. Last I checked, Nintendo sells more widgets than most any other developer.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 16, 2012, 07:44:08 PM
*Sigh*
I'm googling Captain Rainbow now.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 16, 2012, 08:10:47 PM
I don't think just because Nintendo didn't show P-100 at the Press Conference means they don't have faith in the game. They ARE paying millions of dollars developing it after all. AND they exclusively revealed it RIGHT AFTER the Press Conference to Spike TV, where it could be argued they believed was a more traditional gamer venue.
Yeah, Nintendo took the move of making it an exclusive reveal on Spike to try and get more of an audience for it. I don't think it was a particularly good decision, especially given what they did show, but I wouldn't say they didn't have faith in it.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 08:32:51 PM
I just got back from an errand at the grocery store, and on my way back I decided to stop at my local GameStop and put down my $53 (including tax) pre-order on The Last Story (there's been so much coming out lately that I've been putting the pre-order off).
The following is a real conversation I just had with one of my local GameStop employees (a perky 20-something lady, if you want to know). I swear I didn't make any of it up.
Clerk: "Hi! Welcome to GameStop! How can I help you?"
Me: "I'd like to put a pre-order down on "The Last Story" for the Wii."
Clerk: "Did you want the Wii or Wii U version?"
Me: "It's only a Wii game."
Clerk: "Ah yes, I see."
Me: *I make an offhand derogatory comment about the Wii U.*
Clerk: "Actually, we were just talking a moment ago and maybe you can answer something for us: is the Wii U a peripheral for the Wii or its own console?"
Me: *sigh* "Well, that just about sums up Nintendo's awful E3 press conference, doesn't it? It's its own console. It's Nintendo's next system."
Clerk: "Really? Why would they do that? I love my Wii. Just Dance is my favorite game."
*Clerk rings up my pre-order, and I leave...mentally shaking my head.*
Congratulations, Nintendo. Even GameStop employees, it seems, don't yet understand what the Wii U is (and considering that CNN article everyone was talking about after the Press Conference, they're hardly the only ones). Bravo.
Its not enough that Nintendo makes a game you want when there is nothing like it anywhere else, they need to make you feel good too by pretending it is hugely important compared to getting big third parties with graphics and their planned biggest title.
It's Nintendo's usual B.S.: release one of these games with no sign that Nintendo actually cares about the title, and then when it doesn't sell especially well they use it as an excuse to not release more niche titles people actually care about. I can just imagine Project P-100 selling less-than-stellar numbers (I'm not going to buy it, even if I do buy a Wii U. It looks like a Brawler, and those don't generally interest me) then turning to us and saying: "Sorry, but you guys didn't buy Project P-100, so we don't think you'll buy *insert AAA Nintendo niche game here* either." Why not? That's pretty much what happened with the Operation Rainfall titles after Metroid Other M and Sin & Punishment 2 sold below expectations.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 16, 2012, 08:57:24 PM
That Clerk isn't a typical gamer. She's a casual gamer who managed to get a minimum wage job at a retail store. After saying that she loved Just Dance on her Wii, you honestly expected her to know ANYTHING about video games?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
That Clerk isn't a typical gamer. She's a casual gamer who managed to get a minimum wage job at a retail store. After saying that she loved Just Dance on her Wii, you honestly expected her to know ANYTHING about video games?
I expect the person whose job it will be to annoy me into pre-ordering a Wii U to know what the damn thing is, yes. And considering that E3 press conference was geared specifically towards people like her and the big retailers like GameStop who train people like her, I found that experience rather unsettling (though hilarious in retrospect).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 16, 2012, 09:08:55 PM
Ah... how we've changed. it seems like just yesterday, we had a whole thread devoted to how horrible GameStop is. Now, their low-level employees are the barometer of the industry.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 16, 2012, 09:20:43 PM
It's at least a bit worrying that there's a possibility that people who don't know anything go into a store employed by people who also don't know anything assuming that the people they believe should know something but actually don't know anything actually know something and ask them questions. Did I do that right?
The last ridiculous thing that happened to me at GameStop was when, I believe, I went to preorder Xenoblade and one of the employees told the other employee that it was a sequel to Xenosaga. I didn't feel like talking to them so I just let him pretend he knew what he was talking about and didn't correct him. That said, it would help if the Wii U so clearly a new console that the entire scenario I mentioned in the previous paragraph would almost never happen at all.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 16, 2012, 09:29:32 PM
It's at least a bit worrying that there's a possibility that people who don't know anything go into a store employed by people who also don't know anything assuming that the people they believe should know something but actually don't know anything actually know something and ask them questions. Did I do that right?
"So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time." ;)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ThePerm on June 16, 2012, 11:38:00 PM
It's at least a bit worrying that there's a possibility that people who don't know anything go into a store employed by people who also don't know anything assuming that the people they believe should know something but actually don't know anything actually know something and ask them questions. Did I do that right?
"So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time." ;)
i used to work at gamestop, **** that place. They hired me and basically had me set up the place, and then when the place opened they never called me in, or put me on the schedule, i took advantage of my discount for a couple of months and then quit. They were too pussy to fire me. At least I would have known my ****. Especially at the time.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 17, 2012, 12:59:21 AM
So, why did Temco/Grasshopper not work on the localization of the game simultaneously when creating the Japanese version?
I'll take a stab at it... nobody paid them the money to do that?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 17, 2012, 01:31:02 AM
But why would they need money to do it? Surely the sales of releasing it in the US would bring them wheelbarrows of money, had they just make the effort to localize it concurrently with the Japanese development, right?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 17, 2012, 01:32:14 AM
Since Nintendo was publishing, they may have been holding off for Treehouse to do the localization.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 17, 2012, 01:35:54 AM
That's possible. Likely, even.
Which means it didn't get released concurrently because Temco didn't care enough to do it.
I totally see how that's Nintendo's fault.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 17, 2012, 08:58:32 AM
*Tecmo.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 17, 2012, 08:28:41 PM
According to the rumors Nintendo was going to release Fatal Frame 4 in October of 2008 for North America and Europe. They were planning on using Halloween to help help promote the game since it was a horror game and it fit the season well. The game was released in Japan at the end of July so there was a 3 month gap between the Japanese and planned worldwide release date.
So even if a localized version was done at the same time as the Japanese version it still would have been blocked since the international one wasn't scheduled for release until months later and all the bugs were discovered within the first week of release because the Japanese version was so buggy it'd make Bethesda proud.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 18, 2012, 08:16:41 AM
... and all the bugs were discovered within the first week of release because the Japanese version was so buggy it'd make Bethesda proud.
Bullshit. Pure and simple. People keep coming back to this report about bugs blocking the international release, but according to the sources I can find online there are only three notable bugs in the game - yes, only three. (1) There are a small number of ghosts that can't be caught, so you will have a few empty slots in the ghost list at the end of the game. (2) Related to the first bug, after beating the game one of the bonus options can't be selected because you didn't catch all the ghosts. (3) In special conditions there is the potential to lock your game. There is a clear and easy in-game workaround.
Minor bugs outside of that? Sure, there are other bugs that don't affect the game in a meaningful way. But the "big" bugs blocking release don't sound any worse than what was shown in Skyward Sword or Metroid Other M. This isn't on the scale of a Bethesda game, and weren't so terrible that it prevented people from enjoying the game either in Japan or via import.
Nintendo didn't release the game in other regions or let other companies handle it because that's how Nintendo rolls. Unless there is a strong belief that the game will sell millions of copies, it's not deemed worth their time or effort to market. As much as I personally want the Wii Fatal Frame games, I don't believe they will sell enough to meet Nintendo's demands - bugs fixed or not.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on June 18, 2012, 08:29:44 AM
Somewhere between preserving that gross margin line on the financials and actively working to build out your platform support (and enhance your brand and reputation) I feel there must exist a mystical happy-land where companies can release games that smaller market segments desire. This Narnia, if you will, for localizing cool games can perhaps be reached through careful planning, budgeting and reaching out to said (generally well plugged-in) audience such that the company can even profit from their conventionally oh-so-foolish rites.
I think we could probably name some companies that live this fairy tale and it makes me sad that a company with many, many times the resources cannot motivate itself to do something similar just because it does not swing the profit needle for a company of such girth. Never mind that it would well serve the people who invested in their non-trivially priced platform...
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 18, 2012, 02:28:12 PM
Nintendo didn't release the game in other regions or let other companies handle it because that's how Nintendo rolls. Unless there is a strong belief that the game will sell millions of copies, it's not deemed worth their time or effort to market. As much as I personally want the Wii Fatal Frame games, I don't believe they will sell enough to meet Nintendo's demands - bugs fixed or not.
So how do you explain all the niche titles NOE keeps releasing that have no chance of selling 1 million copies? The fact that NOE didn't release Fatal Frame 4, despite the fact they released even more niche titles, points heavily to the rumors about NCL blocking the game because of its buggy nature as more then likely very true.
People can mention Skyward Sword and Other M all they want but the facts are both of those games have one bug that the majority of people playing will never encounter. Plus the bug in Skyward Sword and Other M can be easily avoided when people know what they are since they only activate at a certain point in the game if people do a certain action. Fatal Frame 4 is filled with more bugs that everyone who plays the game will encounter no matter what they do. Having bugs that people can't avoid is unacceptable to Nintendo who has the best debugging record in the industry. Especially when one of the bugs makes it impossible for everyone to even 100% the game.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 18, 2012, 03:32:20 PM
People also fail to account for when a game - not even a bad game - doesn't meet the consumer's expectaions for that brand... it effects how the consumer sees that brand.
Just like folks here who see Nintendo market a handful of full-on "casual" titles, what happens when these casual customers see a Nintendo title, pay $50 for it, then it's something way beyond anything they understand? Makes them more cautious the next time.
Sure, I can release Sin and Punishment 2 and sell it to a few thousand people... but what happens when the Wii fit Soccer moms pick it up?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2012, 03:55:33 PM
Deciding not to release this game just because of a few bugs is the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bath water. You know what you do when you have bugs? Fix them! Then once that's done, release the game.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 18, 2012, 03:58:18 PM
As the story goes, Nintendo wanted Tecmo to fix the bugs before the international release and they refused to.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2012, 04:01:42 PM
Well, I think we've beat the Fatal Frame thing to death. So what about Captain Rainbow? Does this one have game killing bugs as well? What's the deal with NoA not localizing this one? From what I understand its a 1st party game.
BTW, I was just looking on Wikipedia and the cover art looks a lot like your avatar, Insanolord. Could Captain Rainbow and Non-specific Action figure be one and the same?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 18, 2012, 04:03:21 PM
Nintendo didn't release the game in other regions or let other companies handle it because that's how Nintendo rolls. Unless there is a strong belief that the game will sell millions of copies, it's not deemed worth their time or effort to market. As much as I personally want the Wii Fatal Frame games, I don't believe they will sell enough to meet Nintendo's demands - bugs fixed or not.
So how do you explain all the niche titles NOE keeps releasing that have no chance of selling 1 million copies?
Although I think it is a general trend for Nintendo to focus their resources on big games and consider anything that won't sell in huge numbers as light side-projects, I was talking about NoA in particular earlier.
NoE has done a smashing job of releasing core-friendly titles close to the end of the Wii's lifecycle. Their track record isn't perfect and there are clearly some solid Wii titles that weren't release in Europe, but NoE has gone well beyond their presumed limits when you look at the games they've translated and brought over during the past year. I'm grateful to them for spearheading the so-called "Rainfall" trilogy, offering the games as special editions, and even doing the cool "coin" promotion too. I'm thrilled to know they are bringing out the upcoming Project Zero 2 release - the only thing left that excites me about Wii, even if I have to import to play the game. Without NoE, I would have missed a handful of the best games of the Wii lifecycle. (Yes, some of those games are getting released here in North America this year. But only after NoA was actively approached, had the financial risk assumed by other companies, and was able to license NoE's existing localization efforts for re-use.)
Regarding why NoE are releasing and supporting these games when NoA shows no interest, that is a good question. Maybe they are making an effort to appeal to core gamers before Wii U is released - unlike the empty lip service NoA keeps offering?
People also fail to account for when a game - not even a bad game - doesn't meet the consumer's expectaions for that brand... it effects how the consumer sees that brand.
Just like folks here who see Nintendo market a handful of full-on "casual" titles, what happens when these casual customers see a Nintendo title, pay $50 for it, then it's something way beyond anything they understand? Makes them more cautious the next time.
Sure, I can release Sin and Punishment 2 and sell it to a few thousand people... but what happens when the Wii fit Soccer moms pick it up?
But what casual gamer would buy Sin & Punishment 2 when it's sitting beside a Mario XXXX or Wii YYYY game? People buy what they know and what they have nostalgia for. Nintendo isn't losing the casual audience because there are too many core experiences confusing them. And if Nintendo is consciously refusing to release core games in fear that they might confuse or turn away casual gamers, how does that convince me they are worth supporting next generation anyway?
That said, Sin & Punishment 2 being on the shelf at all is an aberration that I have no explanation for. Sure it's a great game. But how it ever got released here is a complete mystery to me... Maybe the sales data report from Virtual Console had a typo or was misinterpreted?
Well, I think we've beat the Fatal Frame thing to death. So what about Captain Rainbow? Does this one have game killing bugs as well? What's the deal with NoA not localizing this one? From what I understand its a 1st party game.
I'd buy Captain Rainbow. But I honestly don't personally know anyone else who would. There is niche, and there there is niche.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 18, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Captain Rainbow was so niche that NoE didn't even release it! ;)
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2012, 04:16:23 PM
I think there's been at least 5 people in this thread who have outright said they would buy the game on release day, and that's just this thread.
Wow, that must mean that it'd project to as many as 12 people that would buy it on these boards. Project that out to the entire Wii userbase and we're looking at a whopping 24 people who would buy it. Call NOA now and let them know that it is worth it!
Captain Rainbow is as inherently "Japanese" as Tingles Rupee Happy Picking Land. They should bring that out here too!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: ejamer on June 18, 2012, 06:04:21 PM
Marty, to put your argument of if a company loses money, they aren't doing it right into perspective, you are basically saying that all three console maker are doing it wrong. All three lost money in 2011. Sony and M$ both sited lower sales in their games division as part of the cause of the lost money.
This must mean that nobody is making games that people want (at least not console makers).
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I even said it earlier in this very thread. If your job is to make and sell videogames, and your company is losing money doing that, then you're doing a bad job.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2012, 06:50:14 PM
For localization I don't really have a problem if a game stays in Japan and neither NOE or NOA want to localize it. I'm only upset when NOE localizes it and NOA does not. That specifically comes across like NOA only wanting the big blockbuster and not caring about more niche titles. The cultural difference between North America and Europe is not so great that anything other than localized sports games would be appropriate for one market and not the other.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 19, 2012, 07:13:47 PM
Plus when a game comes to Europe it is translated into English which makes NoA holding the game back even more outrageous because the work is already done. True, the voicing may be in a British accent, but it would still be easily understood by Americans and Canadians. Reggie finally did cave with Xenoblade, but what was really sad was how much bitching it took for that to happen.
And btw, we need MORE bitching, not less. Bitching is what Operation Rainfall was all about and Bitching is why we got a handful of great A+ titles we weren't going to get otherwise. So I say bitching is the right thing to do and we need more of it. If the people who whine about the bitching had their way Operation Rainfall wouldn't have existed because fans would have just been quiet, and then we would have had nothing.
So Bitch on! :cool;
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 19, 2012, 07:31:23 PM
As I said before, there's a world of difference between bitching and constructive criticism.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 19, 2012, 11:52:36 PM
Plus when a game comes to Europe it is translated into English which makes NoA holding the game back even more outrageous because the work is already done. True, the voicing may be in a British accent, but it would still be easily understood by Americans and Canadians. Reggie finally did cave with Xenoblade, but what was really sad was how much bitching it took for that to happen. ...
Except Reggie didn't "cave". He was approached by an outside party that agreed to take on the publishing risks to see the game released in North America - otherwise it would still be the same "import or nothing" approach for people interested in playing a quality JRPG on Wii.
No matter how much you hate GameStop, that was a pretty cool move of them to take on.
When did this become about game localization and not about bitching about the Wii U...?
...
Not sure about others, but for me localization complaints are a symptom of why I was disappointed after Nintendo's E3 showing. It is an example of why I don't trust Nintendo to provide a full gaming experience on a console, especially when they refuse to announce titles outside the launch window and fail to show me any software that I'm really anticipating. Localization complaints are an example of NoA saying they want to support core gamers but failing to back up their claim with action even when an opportunity is sitting in their hands.
Nintendo is a company that makes solid hardware, creates some amazing game experiences, and holds a nostalgic sway over much of my gaming choices. They are also a company that consistently fails to make the most of their potential or promises. It's frustrating; wanting to support Nintendo but knowing that if I do I'm cutting myself off from a lot of gaming that would otherwise be very appealing.
When I bitch now, it's because I'm not sure that I'm ready for another go-round on the same damn horse of seeing games that I want but being unable to ever play them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 20, 2012, 08:44:56 AM
Well I think for at least the first couple years you'll be fairly safe with the Wii U, as I'm pretty confident it'll get most of the same third party support as the other consoles, plus Nintendo's support. It only really becomes a question mark when Sony and Microsoft's next consoles come into play.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: lolmonade on June 20, 2012, 09:24:06 AM
Well I think for at least the first couple years you'll be fairly safe with the Wii U, as I'm pretty confident it'll get most of the same third party support as the other consoles, plus Nintendo's support. It only really becomes a question mark when Sony and Microsoft's next consoles come into play.
Even then, I question how much of a leap we can really expect when the recently leaked info from Microsoft showed they planned on releasing their next console at a $300 price point. If it's a marginal upgrade more than a generation forward for Sony & Microsoft's systems, couldnt it be possible that Wii U might be able to handle multiplatform games, just maybe be the worst looking version?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 20, 2012, 09:47:12 AM
I think it's likely to be significantly less of a difference between the Wii U and next Xbox/PlayStation than there was between the Wii and 360/PS3. Neither of them is going to go insane with the hardware because it's unnecessary to go that far beyond the current level and it's a lot easier to stay profitable by playing it a bit safer. Add to that the fact that the 360 and PS3 will continue to get significant software support even after their successors launch, and I think Nintendo's safe through 2014 even if the competition launches next year. Assuming all that, and everything we know about how Nintendo's designed the system and its services, and at least a year's head start, I think Nintendo's in really good shape.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 10:23:52 AM
everything we know about how Nintendo's designed the system
They designed it to look like a clone of the 6 year old Wii. Maybe the internal guts of the system are far more advanced than the Wii, but those guts are enclosed within a shell that is going to confuse people. Apparently Jimmy Fallon, CNN, and others have already been confused into thinking the Wii U is just a tablet peripheral and not a new system. If Jimmy Fallon and CNN are confused, what is going to happen with consumers in general? And didn't someone even say a Gamestop employee was also confused? So the confusion is real and apparently widespread. Its a real problem even now, and this holiday season its only going to be much worse.
I still can't understand why Nintendo made the system look so identical to the Wii. I get the name because they want to tie their new product in with something that's well established, but why have it look the same as well? This has me puzzled and no matter how hard I think about it I can't figure out any good reason why they would want to do this.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 20, 2012, 10:39:04 AM
What the physical case looks like is beyond irrelevant. I think you vastly overestimate the problems that will cause. Like the name, no gamer will give a **** what the box looks like if the games are there.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 10:49:02 AM
Aesthetically speaking the system looks fine, or even looks good. The only problem with the appearance is that it looks exactly the same as something else and will inevitably cause frustration, headaches, anger, etc. It won't be a problem for you or me or anyone else on this site, but what about the millions of consumers out there who don't know any better?
I don't care about how it looks aesthetically. The box could literally look like a turd with polka dots for all I care. But at least looking like a turd with polka dots wouldn't confuse people into thinking its the same system they already own. How can you say mass confusion is irrelevant? Not only is it relevant, its very relevant. It will have an impact on sales this holiday season, and beyond.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: lolmonade on June 20, 2012, 11:10:44 AM
Aesthetically speaking the system looks fine, or even looks good. The only problem with the appearance is that it looks exactly the same as something else and will inevitably cause frustration, headaches, anger, etc. It won't be a problem for you or me or anyone else on this site, but what about the millions of consumers out there who don't know any better?
I don't care about how it looks aesthetically. The box could literally look like a turd with polka dots for all I care. But at least looking like a turd with polka dots wouldn't confuse people into thinking its the same system they already own. How can you say mass confusion is irrelevant? Not only is it relevant, its very relevant. It will have an impact on sales this holiday season, and beyond.
Here's the thing: Even if people are confused about what it is right now, when they go and buy what they think is a stand-alone perhipheral and open the box, they will soon find it is a completely new console altogether. Core gamers are the only ones that will truly care about the graphical and processing upgrade, all of the "blue ocean" consumers would be interested in the gamepad and gameplay mechanics that come specifically with that.
It looks similar to the Wii for the same reason it's called the "Wii U". Despite recent sales figures, the Wii was an incredible success, and they are going to make it as similar looking as the Wii in an attempt to use that name-brand equity to market it to the same consumers who bought a Wii just for the sake of Wii Fit or Wii Sports. Nintendo realizes that the Wii's biggest problem has not been as much the graphical disparity as much as it was software support outside of their core franchises, and the lousy sales now are probably mostly attributed to a mix of market saturation and publishers starving the system from software releases from now until the Wii U release.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 11:37:03 AM
The similar console design will be a problem for some at least initially. Then, it won't. Like 3DS, people are going to figure it out eventually and it likely won't take more than a few months at most. Personally, I think it'd be worth it to just avoid that entirely because the shape of the box affects nothing about the hardware's performance.
Nintendo realizes that the Wii's biggest problem has not been as much the graphical disparity as much as it was software support outside of their core franchises, and the lousy sales now are probably mostly attributed to a mix of market saturation and publishers starving the system from software releases from now until the Wii U release.
They probably also realize that the graphical disparity between the Wii and PS3/360 is part of the reason software support suffered. That won't be a problem with Wii U for at least a couple years.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 12:07:32 PM
Like 3DS, people are going to figure it out eventually
Do we really know that everyone figured out the 3DS? There could still be a lot of people out there who are confused about it being a new handheld, versus a mere revision of the DS. I don't see any reason to just assume everyone's figured that out because there's no hard data supporting it one way or the other.
One thing we do know is 3DS sales are doing a lot better since the price cut and release of better games, but that doesn't mean that even as good as sales are right now they couldn't be even better without market confusion being a factor. We simply don't know.
I can't help but think if you showed a 3DS to a lot of elderly or soccer moms they would say "Oh, I already have that", referring to the original DS Phat/lite/i. People aren't going to buy what they already have, or what they THINK they already have.
If that's the case with the 3DS it most certainly will be with the Wii U as well. Elderly and soccer mom consumers are going to look at the Wii U and think "I already have that, except for that new tablet controller thing". Then they will pass on buying it because they think its what they already have, and don't feel like paying $350 for a tablet peripheral.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 20, 2012, 12:09:14 PM
I think that Nintendo won't be selling tablets separately either, at least until games that support two tablets come out. That means the only way for casuals to get "the new Wii peripheral" will be to buy the console itself- then they'll see.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 12:14:23 PM
I think that Nintendo won't be selling tablets separately either, at least until games that support two tablets come out. That means the only way for casuals to get "the new Wii peripheral" will be to buy the console itself- then they'll see.
As I said in my previous post I don't think consumers will plunk down $350 just to get what they think is a Wii peripheral. They just won't buy it at all, and that's why I said its going to impact sales.
I'm not saying that the Wii U won't sell well, but something like this might cause it to be somewhat less successful than it otherwise could have been. So the Wii U may still do well despite consumers being confused, but it won't do quite as well as it could have if Nintendo had made it clearer that this is more than a new peripheral or hardware revision.
Reggie is a PR guy, so its his job to make this clearer to consumers. But from what we've seen on Jimmy Fallon he doesn't seem to be doing a good job of driving this important fact home to people. He spends most of his time focusing on the Tablet, but its actually the console itself that people need to be sold on.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 12:37:30 PM
Do we really know that everyone figured out the 3DS?
Well, I didn't say "everyone," I said "people" denoting a general understanding from consumers. There's no way to prove that everyone ever understands everything, but ultimately that doesn't matter. What's important is that 3DS sales have improved to the point where it's considered successful for Nintendo. They can't reach every last man, woman, and child. They don't need to. Nintendo could change the box and some people still wouldn't get it right away. Nothing to be done. Some people just won't get it no matter how hard you beat them over the head with something. The design will cause some confusion despite being completely avoidable, but I don't believe it'll persist. If Wii U fails, it won't be because of the box design.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 12:48:16 PM
Some people just won't get it no matter how hard you beat them over the head with something.
Sadly this is true. There are still people who think the world is flat, that the moon landings were faked, etc. Getting everyone to understand something is impossible, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get the remaining 99.9% on board. Your attitude seems to be that since 100% is impossible Nintendo shouldn't even bother trying at all, but I don't agree with that.
If Wii U fails, it won't be because of the box design.
Ian said in a post awhile back that if the Wii U fails there's probably not going to be a single smoking gun to which we can lay all the blame on. He said instead it would suffer a death of a thousand cuts. I think that might be true. Market confusion would certainly be one of those cuts. Will it be the only cut? No. Will it be the worst problem the Wii U faces? Probably not. But is it something Nintendo should be worrying about? Absolutely.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 12:56:40 PM
I disagree. It may be something that shouldn't be a problem but it's more like not refilling your cat's water bowl before leaving for work rather than leaving the stove on. Your cat might be cranky when you get home, but she won't die. Could Nintendo sell more units initially? Probably. Will it hurt them in the longrun? Not likely.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 01:03:35 PM
You have to keep in mind the clock is ticking for when the competition show up. Even if people will "figure it out eventually", the longer it takes them to figure it out the more likely it is they will start hearing about the PS4 and 420 with its shiny casual friendly Kinect 2.0 or whatever, and so the danger here is by the time they finally figure out that the Wii U is a new console it may be too late because by then the casual blue ocean market will have lost interest and their attention will have shifted over to the competition. You don't think that would hurt Nintendo in the long run?
Nintendo has a very short window to lock up the market before the competition shows up. By confusing consumers, the Wii U adoption will be slow and Nintendo's early lead advantage will have been squandered. Letting people "figure it out eventually" could be disastrous, because "eventually" might come too little too late.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 01:20:47 PM
Play the doom card if you want. I don't see it being anywhere near as disastrous. I've stated numerous times that I believe some people will be confused. Nintendo could redesign the box before launching and some people would still be confused. In either case, I see that number in the thousands rather than millions. Many will come around sooner rather than later. At the end of the day, it really won't be the difference maker.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 01:30:43 PM
You have to keep in mind the clock is ticking for when the competition show up. Even if people will "figure it out eventually", the longer it takes them to figure it out the more likely it is they will start hearing about the PS4 and 420 with its shiny casual friendly Kinect 2.0 or whatever, and so the danger here is by the time they finally figure out that the Wii U is a new console it may be too late because by then the casual blue ocean market will have lost interest and their attention will have shifted over to the competition. You don't think that would hurt Nintendo in the long run?
Once again, Nintendo is launching the Wii U with NSMB U, Wii Fit U, and Nintendo Land which they're advertising as a spiritual successor to Wii Sports. The last game in each series sold this many copies.
Wii Sports Resort - 30 million
NSMB Wii - 26 million
Wii Fit Plus - 20 million
Just because some of you aren't interested in these games, doesn't change the fact that millions of other people will be. These three games have huge appeal to the current Wii audience and if they were to go to a store thinking these games are still Wii games, they'll discover this holiday that these are Wii U games and they'll need to buy a Wii U to play them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 20, 2012, 02:22:11 PM
Reggie is a PR guy, so its his job to make this clearer to consumers. But from what we've seen on Jimmy Fallon he doesn't seem to be doing a good job of driving this important fact home to people. He spends most of his time focusing on the Tablet, but its actually the console itself that people need to be sold on.
Do you really think that Reggie ignored the fact that Jimmy thought it was a Wii peripheral?
If so, you are wrong. He corrected him immediately and made it clear that this was a new system with HD graphics and would have new gaming experiences that were not possible on the Wii.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 20, 2012, 02:27:17 PM
If they can avoid potential confusion, why not do it? They might not have time now and that is an acceptable reason for not changing anything at this point. But if they can do something still, why not do it? They have two examples of someone assuming the Wii U is just an accessory. They aren't running ads yet. They can make sure the ads emphasize that it's a new system. If they seriously just changed the colour of the system to blue or something the problem would solved. It really isn't hard, unless they're already manufacturing these things.
We know this is a potential problem and have real examples of someone making the wrong assumption. No one is going to be mistaken about this stuff in the longrun but it could affect early sales. Why risk it if you can fix it? Why just blow that off? They probably still have time to correct it so why shouldn't they do it? Obviously Jimmy Fallon thinking it was a Wii accessory was not their intention. Better to find this out now before launch. Finding out now is a gift. They've been warned about a potential mistake before they went through with it.
So maybe they'll ignore it and assume it doesn't matter. Is that sort of "eh... good enough" attitude going to be limited to this? If they can't fix something this obvious how are they going to get the less obvious stuff right? When Nintendo goofs up the routine stuff that any idiot could get right it hurts my faith in them. If you can't get the easy and obvious stuff right how they hell will you get the hard stuff right? Nintendo should strive to be as perfect as economically feasible.
Nintendo should assume that no one cares about the Wii U. If no one cares will they tolerate lame excuses? Is it worth the risk of them making the incorrect assumption about it? This is what killed the Gamecube. Nintendo lost ground with the N64 so no one cared about the Gamecube and Nintendo just offered lame excuses for stupid avoidable mistakes, didn't really make any sort of splash to attract attention, and often seemed to play specifically to their detractor's criticisms. No one cares unless you give them a reason to and never assume that anyone will make an exception for you. Nintendo should act like no one cares about the Wii U and that they have to convince the world to get one. If they're blowing off the fact that the Wii U has twice been mistaken for a Wii accessory, they're not acting like that. They're acting like the world will make an exception for their easily avoidable mistake.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 20, 2012, 02:38:22 PM
You know what tells people somethings new more than a name? Price and product placement. Look at any carlot to confirm.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 02:39:56 PM
they'll discover this holiday that these are Wii U games and they'll need to buy a Wii U to play them.
Considering that almost no store will accept returns on opened media, this will be a pretty costly lesson for consumers. If they make the false assumption that these games will play on their Wiis (and why wouldn't they when they come in the same pearl white dvd cases as old school Wii games?) they will have plunked down $50 or $60 on a game which is incompatible with their system and cannot be returned once its been opened.
Gamestop and other used retailers will probably benefit because they can take all these opened unreturnable Wii U games as trade-ins, but with a trade in you don't get the full value of the game back, so that sucks for consumers.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this is going to frustrate, anger, and possibly even disenfranchise consumers. Definitely not a good opening move by Nintendo to start off this next generation.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 20, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
Is that a whole lot different when Game Boy Color games and Game Boy Advance games came in virtually the exact same box but wouldn't play on the old system?
And why won't these green-cases XBox games play on my XBox? I have an "XBox Live" and this game says right on it "XBox Live". What's a 360?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on June 20, 2012, 02:49:50 PM
Something that I think is worth noting is that all 3 of those games will have released over 3 years prior to the Wii U's projected launch. The casual market's changed a lot in 3 years. 3 years ago, I'd go to a public place and I'd see a large chunk of people playing Sodoku (or some other casual experience) on their DS. Just yesterday I was at a doctor's office, and half the waiting room (of about a dozen or so people) were browsing the internet or playing solitaire on their smart phones.
My point is that just because something sold exceptionally well to the casuals 3 years ago, that doesn't mean it will necessarily sell to that extent now (especially with the economy only having gotten worse). Just observe how Wii hardware and software sales have plummeted in the last few years as the mobile gaming market has soared. 3 years ago, a program like Wii Fit would have seemed a useful way to track exercise. These days, my mother's phone has half a dozen Apps dedicated to exercise. The various mobile games stores have flooded the market with casual experiences, as well. Are these experiences as good as something Nintendo might make? No, but the casuals generally seem to consider them "good enough" for their needs.
Maybe Nintendo's casual gamble will pay off again with these Wii U launch games, but I definitely wouldn't treat it as a "sure thing" at this point. Nintendo still has a lot to do between now and the launch to prove that the Wii U is a device that people who don't ordinarily follow games need to buy. And considering right now they seem to have a continual problem convincing casuals that the Wii U is a new console, I'd say they have their work cut out for them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 02:52:29 PM
Is that a whole lot different when Game Boy Color games and Game Boy Advance games came in virtually the exact same box but wouldn't play on the old system?
And why won't these green-cases XBox games play on my XBox? I have an "XBox Live" and this game says right on it "XBox Live". What's a 360?
Well, first off two wrongs don't make a right. Just because this was done in the past with the GBC doesn't mean it was right then either. Second, the market has grown a lot larger since then, and the bulk of the Wii U market is made up of ignorant blue market casuals who don't read up on this stuff. With the GBC it was less of an issue because only gamers played the games, but now grandma and mom and dad and aunt jill are playing with Wiis, and are they going to know the difference?
And I'm not really sure, but back in 1998 a lot of stores might have still accepted returns on used media, because this was back before piracy really took off. So back then if you bought a GBC game and mistakenly thought it would play on your Gameboy you could probably return it and get your money back so it was no big deal. Nowadays you can't though.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 20, 2012, 03:03:19 PM
Here's what just their million sellers for their last fiscal year were. (April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012) New Super Mario Bros Wii - 4.32 million (26.26 million lifetime total) Wii Sports - 2.84 million (79.60 million lifetime total) Wii Fit Plus - 2 million (20.48 million lifetime total)
Those "3 year old" games are still selling multi-million. I know that in a world where Call of Duty sells a bajillion copies on launch day, selling a measly 4.32 million doesn't sound like a lot... but consider that most games DO NOT SELL even a million copies in their lifetime. Selling 4.32 million more copies, three years later, with 26 million copies already in the wild? And in the case of NSMBWii, at $50/pop, not as re-release or at a price reduction? I seriously doubt you'll find a publisher in the world that wouldn't be thrilled with those results.
Second, the market has grown a lot larger since then, and the bulk of the Wii U market is made up of ignorant blue market casuals who don't read up on this stuff. With the GBC it was less of an issue because only gamers played the games, but now grandma and mom and dad and aunt jill are playing with Wiis, and are they going to know the difference?
Heh.
Back then, the market was made up of little kiddies playing their Game Boys on the school bus with these grandmas, moms, dads and aunts buying little Timmy a new game for his birthday. And then, they were buying the game for someone else and had even less of an idea what was going on.
Quote
And I'm not really sure, but back in 1998 a lot of stores might have still accepted returns on used media,
They didn't.
Quote
because this was back before piracy really took off.
The Piracy angle is only a small part of why you can't bring back games, movies, music, etc. Basically, they don't want you to play the media, then return it. Stores had no-return except for defective policies back in the Atari/Intellivision days.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Well, like I said I'm not really defending Nintendo's handling of the GBC either. Personally, I think they should have done more to distinguish that handheld's appearance also. They also could have added a few more buttons. But the GBC is ancient history. What matters right now is the Wii U.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: UncleBob on June 20, 2012, 03:17:56 PM
Ancient History and Recent History show that your concerns are that big of a deal.
You have to go back to the stone age of video gaming to determine why.
To see the effects of what you're describing (mass consumer confusion), you'd have to hop in the Waybac machine all the way to 1982. That's when Atari first introduced the 5200. A superior console in every way.... except that it didn't play Atari 2600 games. Confused and angered people to the point where the next system, released "too little, too late", the Atari 7800 actually included backwards compatibility with the 2600 - but not even the 5200.
However, this was a defining point in gaming history. Consumers were educated about the way technology works - and when the Super Nintendo was released, there was virtually no major backlash due to brand confusion.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 20, 2012, 03:22:31 PM
Soooo... I'm hearing more and more about the Wii U being, essentially, on-par with current gen offerings. What's the consensus on this? How do you feel about the console if this is the case...?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 20, 2012, 05:17:28 PM
Something that I think is worth noting is that all 3 of those games will have released over 3 years prior to the Wii U's projected launch. The casual market's changed a lot in 3 years. 3 years ago, I'd go to a public place and I'd see a large chunk of people playing Sodoku (or some other casual experience) on their DS. Just yesterday I was at a doctor's office, and half the waiting room (of about a dozen or so people) were browsing the internet or playing solitaire on their smart phones.
My point is that just because something sold exceptionally well to the casuals 3 years ago, that doesn't mean it will necessarily sell to that extent now (especially with the economy only having gotten worse). Just observe how Wii hardware and software sales have plummeted in the last few years as the mobile gaming market has soared. 3 years ago, a program like Wii Fit would have seemed a useful way to track exercise. These days, my mother's phone has half a dozen Apps dedicated to exercise. The various mobile games stores have flooded the market with casual experiences, as well. Are these experiences as good as something Nintendo might make? No, but the casuals generally seem to consider them "good enough" for their needs.
Maybe Nintendo's casual gamble will pay off again with these Wii U launch games, but I definitely wouldn't treat it as a "sure thing" at this point. Nintendo still has a lot to do between now and the launch to prove that the Wii U is a device that people who don't ordinarily follow games need to buy. And considering right now they seem to have a continual problem convincing casuals that the Wii U is a new console, I'd say they have their work cut out for them.
Even if the games I mentioned only sell half of what they did on the Wii which would be a huge drop, that would still give the Wii U 3 titles at launch that will end up selling over 10 million copies and ensure the system has a great launch.
Of course the saying that smart phones have for some reason taken away much of Nintendo's casual audience still hasn't been proven at all. If this was true, then why has the 3DS been selling better then the DS was at this point in it's lifespan and games like Mario Kart 7, which was very popular with the casuals on the DS and Wii was able to sell over 5 million copies in just a few months after release and still selling. It's already outsold Super Circuit lifetime total for the GBA which was the last handheld Mario Kart before MKDS and will easily outsell the last console Mario Kart before the Wii, Double Dash lifetime total of around 7 million well before the end of this year. This shows that a good amount of the large audience Nintendo picked up with the DS and Wii are still buying their systems. It also shows that the 3DS name wasn't a large cause of confusion just like the Wii U name won't be a large cause of confusion because a big game like Mario Kart was able to convince a large number of people.
Now yes, some of the casuals Nintendo picked up might be satisfied with the apps on smart phones now and won't buy a new console, but the 3DS has shown quite clearly a large amount will buy a new Nintendo system because they still want the games Nintendo is releasing on them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 20, 2012, 06:12:31 PM
If the possibility of people confusing the Wii U for a Wii accessory was merely hypothetical and I would say that the concern is overblown. But both CNN and Jimmy Fallon thought at one point that it was a Wii accessory. I think those two independent incidents suggest that it might be an issue.
Regarding the GBC, at the very least a lot of GBC games were playable on a regular Game Boy so if someone bought a game for the wrong system they likely could still play it, just without colour.
I'm less concerned with people buying the wrong game as I am with the possibility of lesser interest in the Wii U because people think it's just a new controller. That is not nearly as exciting as a new system. A new controller might be just seen as unessential.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 20, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
But they aren't selling the controller, they are selling a system with a new controller. You can't buy it separately.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 06:26:29 PM
But they aren't selling the controller, they are selling a system with a new controller. You can't buy it separately.
Consumers will want to know why they can't just buy the controller separate because they already have the Wii console.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 06:29:22 PM
That's probably when many of them will realize that they have to buy a new console.
I hope at some point we'll be able to buy them separately, at least directly from Nintendo. Accidents (and cats) happen.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 20, 2012, 06:32:33 PM
I personally don't think Nintendo's messaging on the Wii U is right where it needs to be. However, I would be surprised if it doesn't improve dramatically between now and launch.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 20, 2012, 06:35:12 PM
But they aren't selling the controller, they are selling a system with a new controller. You can't buy it separately.
Consumers will want to know why they can't just buy the controller separate because they already have the Wii console.
Is that before or after they realize it costs $300? And if it's after then Nintendo is winning because perceived valid then shoots through the roof.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2012, 06:42:25 PM
I wonder how many people on ebay are going to take advantage of consumer ignorance by selling old Wii systems and lying and saying they are actually Wii U's.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 20, 2012, 06:48:34 PM
But the controller is the face of the system. If there is no gamepad then there is no system.
Kairon is right, an as campaign will solve all of this and should be expected.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 20, 2012, 07:03:38 PM
But they aren't selling the controller, they are selling a system with a new controller. You can't buy it separately.
I mean like someone sees a commercial for the Wii U, thinks "eh, I don't really care enough about a new controller for my Wii" and then doesn't look further into it. They don't try to buy it and find out it's a new system, they just don't care at all because it's just some minor peripheral in their mind.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2012, 07:12:10 PM
I mean like someone sees a commercial for the Wii U, thinks "eh, I don't really care enough about a new controller for my Wii" and then doesn't look further into it. They don't try to buy it and find out it's a new system, they just don't care at all because it's just some minor peripheral in their mind.
What makes you think they would suddenly care if they knew it was a new console? If they see the controller and aren't impressed enough to find out more, that's no sale whether they think it's for the Wii or a new console.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 20, 2012, 07:42:53 PM
I wonder how many people on ebay are going to take advantage of consumer ignorance by selling old Wii systems and lying and saying they are actually Wii U's.
You view the world quite negatively.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 20, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
I wonder how many people on ebay are going to take advantage of consumer ignorance by selling old Wii systems and lying and saying they are actually Wii U's.
You view the world quite negatively.
Maybe he's positive! Maybe he's thinking the number will be less than last time!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Sarail on June 20, 2012, 09:15:11 PM
I wonder how many people on ebay are going to take advantage of consumer ignorance by selling old Wii systems and lying and saying they are actually Wii U's.
You view the world quite negatively.
Have you been outside lately? Sheesh.. it's all demons and flying harpies and whatnot. Crazy, I tell you! o_O
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: nickmitch on June 21, 2012, 01:53:28 AM
I mean like someone sees a commercial for the Wii U, thinks "eh, I don't really care enough about a new controller for my Wii" and then doesn't look further into it. They don't try to buy it and find out it's a new system, they just don't care at all because it's just some minor peripheral in their mind.
What makes you think they would suddenly care if they knew it was a new console? If they see the controller and aren't impressed enough to find out more, that's no sale whether they think it's for the Wii or a new console.
Graphics?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on June 21, 2012, 02:08:39 PM
The casual gamer bought the Wii over the other consoles. They won't care about the Wii U. The only way they can market it to them is HD and the uPad.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Sarail on June 21, 2012, 02:14:54 PM
The casual gamer bought the Wii over the other consoles. They won't care about the Wii U. The only way they can market it to them is HD and the uPad.
Not necessarily true. The casual gamer bought the Wii because they mainly just didn't know or care about the PS3 or 360. It's not like all three consoles were placed right in front of their collective faces and told, "Now choose!"
Nintendo marketed it to casuals. That's why they bought it. Sony and Microsoft had no care in this until they saw the dolla dolla signs dropping fast for Nintendo - thus Move and Kinect. MS started marketing the 360 in a cheaper package toward casuals... and guess what! They started buying Kinect and the 360.
Crazy how that works.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 21, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
The casual gamer bought the Wii because they mainly just didn't know or care about the PS3 or 360.
I'm sure the fact the PS3 was at one time $600 and the 360 was like $400 had a lot to do with that. The Wii sorta won by default with a lot of consumers simply because it was the only one available at a price level they were willing to pay.
If it does turn out the Wii U is seriously underpowered, then at least it could mean Nintendo will be able to keep the price down. So maybe it wouldn't be all bad if the Wii U does end being a weak system.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Sarail on June 21, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
The casual gamer bought the Wii because they mainly just didn't know or care about the PS3 or 360.
I'm sure the fact the PS3 was at one time $600 and the 360 was like $400 had a lot to do with that. The Wii sorta won by default with a lot of consumers simply because it was the only one available at a price level they were willing to pay.
If it does turn out the Wii U is seriously underpowered, then at least it could mean Nintendo will be able to keep the price down. So maybe it wouldn't be all bad if the Wii U does end being a weak system.
True. But were Sony and Microsoft even going after that crowd? It wasn't until a year later after the 360 released that Nintendo screamed from the mountaintops, "Hey casuals and non-gamers! Look over here! Lookie at what we got!" I don't think Sony or Microsoft even knew the blue-ocean existed at the point -- especially Sony.. who's always been so adeptly clueless.
But yeah, weak system or not.. I'm expecting $329 to $349 - pack-in game or not.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 21, 2012, 04:27:44 PM
Blue ocean did not exist to Sony or M$ when Nintendo started selling the Wii. The Wii is a phenomenon taht is very unlikely to be duplicated in the same way. Nintendo had the smart advertising campaign of "Wii would like to Play." Fans of Nintendo bought the system and showed it to their moms and dads and grandparents. For the first time in history, there was a system that everyone in the family could enjoy together all at once. Those family members started telling their friends about it and so on and so on until everyone who wasn't a gamer wanted a Wii. It was sold out for nearly three straight years because of that.
Wii U won't happen the same way. It'll sell well right away. The only way the legs continue is if the casuals enjoy the system together as a family as much as they did with the Wii. I don't think that'll happen but the Wii U will be just fine.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 21, 2012, 05:49:51 PM
One thing to note about the Wii's blue ocean success is that if you've never played videogames before the mere concept of playing a game is a thrill. The entire experience is a complete novelty to you. The first time I ever played a game part of the thrill was that I could control the guy on the screen. You can't get that "wow, I'm playing a videogame" thrill more than once. The Wii U cannot possible create the same frenzy unless it introduces yet another new audience to videogames.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: AnGer on June 23, 2012, 04:17:08 AM
I think the major reason for people bitching about the E3 presentation or to be precise, the WiiU presentation, was that Nintendo themselves showed a lot of future titles when the 3DS was first announced in 2010. We had Kid Icarus, Paper Mario, Kingdom Hearts and Luigi's Mansion – and none of these titles was a launch window game. KI came out in March 2012, almost a year after the 3DS' release, Kingdom Hearts is due in July and Paper Mario as well as Luigi's Mansion are due this holiday season.
Compared to that, Nintendo has shown nothing that goes beyond the "launch window" period. We know there's a new IP coming from Retro Studios and we know of the "usual suspects" – meaning Zelda, Pokémon, Smash Bros and Mario – but there is nothing beyond that.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: nickmitch on June 24, 2012, 06:01:46 PM
Nintendo did that on purpose. When the 3DS was announced, we got all excited about the games. By the time the system launched, it was basically a bait-and-switch. To avoid getting our hopes up and leaving us disappointed at launch, they only showed launch window games they know are going to be ready in time.
Remember, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on June 25, 2012, 03:21:28 AM
Everyone said Nintendo screwed up the 3DS launch because the games weren't there (and the price, but that's beside the point). This time around, Nintendo wants everyone's expectations to be realistic so as to not cause a need to drop the price of the Wii U less than 8 months into the system's lifecycle. This is one thing they fixed from the 3DS launch.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on June 26, 2012, 04:05:12 PM
There's been a pretty significant amount of stupidity in regards to the showing this year. Nintendo's not going to upset people with waits like they had for Kid Icarus, Luigi's Mansion, and Paper Mario. It's just unwise to show games off that are further down the line than we know. So by announcing games closer to their actual release, they're ensuring little to no delays.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: rlse9 on June 26, 2012, 06:26:36 PM
Nintendo did that on purpose. When the 3DS was announced, we got all excited about the games. By the time the system launched, it was basically a bait-and-switch. To avoid getting our hopes up and leaving us disappointed at launch, they only showed launch window games they know are going to be ready in time.
Remember, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
But is it any better to have people be disappointed from the start than it is to get them excited then have them be disappointed? Either one seems like a negative to me.
I can understand them not wanting to say too much about games that are a ways down the line but why not a little tease of games further off, especially with the launch of a new system, a system that is supposedly going to cater more to the core crowd? A little tease of an HD Zelda, any sort of small piece of information about the next Smash Bros. Something to get people excited about what's coming down the road beyond the launch window, which while not bad by any means, doesn't look like anything that is going to attract current non-Nintendo gamers.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 26, 2012, 06:39:53 PM
A little tease of an HD Zelda, any sort of small piece of information about the next Smash Bros.
Hahaha this sentence is funny for two reasons: You obviously don't remember the backlash after showing an "HD Zelda" before the GC launched. Plus, they've already done it last E3 (so maybe Nintendo doesn't remember either; but they did remember to say that it's just a tech demo...repeatedly).
Secondly, they just gave a little tidbit of Smash Bros. not even a week ago. Look at the Talkback forum.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 26, 2012, 10:26:10 PM
There's been a pretty significant amount of stupidity in regards to the showing this year. Nintendo's not going to upset people with waits like they had for Kid Icarus, Luigi's Mansion, and Paper Mario. It's just unwise to show games off that are further down the line than we know. So by announcing games closer to their actual release, they're ensuring little to no delays.
I agree that it's good not to show things too far in advance, but I've made the argument that even if you only consider games that were actually at E3 this year, Nintendo could have put on a vastly better show than they did. Show P-100, talk about Zombi U instead of Batman, don't spend so much time on the hub world of Nintendo Land and give a more general overview of the games instead of spending so much time on one of them.
In the long run it's not going to matter how much their E3 press conference sucked, but they could have done so much better than they did.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: rlse9 on June 26, 2012, 11:03:02 PM
A little tease of an HD Zelda, any sort of small piece of information about the next Smash Bros.
Hahaha this sentence is funny for two reasons: You obviously don't remember the backlash after showing an "HD Zelda" before the GC launched. Plus, they've already done it last E3 (so maybe Nintendo doesn't remember either; but they did remember to say that it's just a tech demo...repeatedly).
Secondly, they just gave a little tidbit of Smash Bros. not even a week ago. Look at the Talkback forum.
Wasn't the backlash not that they showed an "HD Zelda" but that they completely changed course with Wind Waker and people who were looking forward to the "HD Zelda" were disappointed? And wouldn't that exact thing happen again if they went that route with the first WiiU Zelda?
The problem is that you're viewing things as a Nintendo fan. You remember the Zelda tech demo, you know everything that was announced at Nintendo Direct. That's all great and good but people in the general gaming media, general tech media, and media in general don't know, remember, or even care because E3 was Nintendo's one chance to give them a reason to care and they failed. Their response has been disinterest which is passed on to their readers/viewers/listeners. Maybe it's all irrelevant if the WiiU turns out to be just as fun as the Wii when it first came out and they get good 3rd party support and Microsoft and Sony don't blow them out of the water technologically in a year or two but right now non-Nintendo gamers seem not to care about WiiU and non-gamers either don't know exactly what it is or even care.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on June 27, 2012, 02:46:31 PM
I remember prior to the Gamecube launch the big challenge was getting people to pay attention. It really seemed that outside the Nintendo fanbase their wasn't much coverage of the Cube. I found it very frustrating to see it ignored by magazines and web sites like it was a non-factor before it even came out.
Nintendo should want to get people talking and that doesn't happen if you're all private about things and save announcements for Nintendo-only events. If Nintendo has a game in the works that would create a major buzz, that isn't due until some time in 2013, they could still potentially sell Wii U's on the hype of that title alone. Or at least keep people interested until that title comes out. If you blow the chance to grab their attention when are people going to suddenly care? You could release a game they want next year but they might NEVER KNOW ABOUT IT because if they've already written the Wii U off and how much effort are they going to put in to keep up to date with a system they don't care about? If someone is not interested in Nintendo they will not pay any attention to Nintendo Direct. Everyone pays attention to E3. If you make a splash there you might enter the field of vision of people who otherwise don't care about you.
Of course this was the first impression and they blew it. So good luck getting anyone who's written off the Wii U to ever pay attention again. It's much easier to get general interest in "the new Nintendo console" than "the new games for that existing Nintendo console that you don't own or care about". Next E3, gamers who don't already own a Wii U will pay less attention to Nintendo's showing. The first E3 appearance of a system always attracts the most general attention.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 27, 2012, 04:53:57 PM
I remember prior to the Gamecube launch the big challenge was getting people to pay attention. It really seemed that outside the Nintendo fanbase their wasn't much coverage of the Cube. I found it very frustrating to see it ignored by magazines and web sites like it was a non-factor before it even came out.
Nintendo should want to get people talking and that doesn't happen if you're all private about things and save announcements for Nintendo-only events. If Nintendo has a game in the works that would create a major buzz, that isn't due until some time in 2013, they could still potentially sell Wii U's on the hype of that title alone. Or at least keep people interested until that title comes out. If you blow the chance to grab their attention when are people going to suddenly care? You could release a game they want next year but they might NEVER KNOW ABOUT IT because if they've already written the Wii U off and how much effort are they going to put in to keep up to date with a system they don't care about? If someone is not interested in Nintendo they will not pay any attention to Nintendo Direct. Everyone pays attention to E3. If you make a splash there you might enter the field of vision of people who otherwise don't care about you.
Of course this was the first impression and they blew it. So good luck getting anyone who's written off the Wii U to ever pay attention again. It's much easier to get general interest in "the new Nintendo console" than "the new games for that existing Nintendo console that you don't own or care about". Next E3, gamers who don't already own a Wii U will pay less attention to Nintendo's showing. The first E3 appearance of a system always attracts the most general attention.
I agree that it was a tactical blunder to parse out such an underwhelming E3 showing, and could have major ramifications about the viability of the Wii U, fairly or not.
But I think you can possibly extrapolate a strategy from this, for reasons you allude to. Next E3 is going to be all about the new Playstation and XBox. To stand any chance of withstanding that tide, Nintendo is going to have to have a flood of announcements. As people have mentioned, they're extremely inconsistent about how long ahead of time they debut games in the press, so I'm inclined to believe its more about strategy (correct or incorrect) than having a genuine policy of not showing games off until six months before they launch. Why else would they supposedly nix a Retro demo? That by itself could have created enough buzz to balance out all the negative impressions that have flooded from E3. I'm guessing Nintendo is secretly scared shitless about the Orbis and Durango, and is really hoping they're not going to make the Wii U a tech orphan.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 27, 2012, 05:04:46 PM
Hopefully at next year's E3 Sony and/or Microsoft will have just as underwhelming an unveiling of their new consoles as Nintendo did this year. I wouldn't count on that, but for Nintendo's sake hopefully that's what ends up happening.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 27, 2012, 05:06:09 PM
If you just look at the developers we haven't heard from in a while, Nintendo looks like they could have the goods for a repeat of E3 2010 next year. Assuming they don't blow all that by trickling it all out ahead of time in Nintendo Directs. If you're going up against console reveals, having games from your two best developers (Retro and EAD Tokyo) to unveil at the show is about as well as you can hope to do. That, and strong third party support, could show the Wii U hitting its stride months before the competition even launches.
Not holding my breath, but it's something to hope for.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: AnGer on June 29, 2012, 06:49:19 AM
But is it any better to have people be disappointed from the start than it is to get them excited then have them be disappointed? Either one seems like a negative to me.
I can understand them not wanting to say too much about games that are a ways down the line but why not a little tease of games further off, especially with the launch of a new system, a system that is supposedly going to cater more to the core crowd? A little tease of an HD Zelda, any sort of small piece of information about the next Smash Bros. Something to get people excited about what's coming down the road beyond the launch window, which while not bad by any means, doesn't look like anything that is going to attract current non-Nintendo gamers.
This. While the 3DS launch was somewhat disappointing and the pricing policy also can be considered an utter failure (or at least a slap in the face of the customers), there was at least an outlook on what's in store for the device over the course of the first two years.
They should have at least shown one or two games for 2013/2014, but... well, we shall see what they've really got up their sleeve.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 29, 2012, 12:29:34 PM
I'm going to disagree with the majority, in that I agree with Nintendo's reluctance to show future titles. First, it keeps the competition guessing as to your strategy. But more importantly, it allows Nintendo to go all out next E3, stealing the attention away from Sony and Microsoft's next consoles. Timing is as important as the nature of your news. Could Nintendo have shown one major game to create a positive impression? Sure, (and I don't think Pikmin 3 was this game) but I think having mostly tech demos to stimulate the imagination of your audience is sufficient for now. The whole point is to not be forgotten next year when the competition increases.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: shingi_70 on June 29, 2012, 02:21:30 PM
The notion that a company likr nintrndo doesnt want to show stuff that will be out later sue to fear of delays is honest to god bullshit. Take surfa e a d Google Glass. Both are a ways out (the pro version of surface wont be out until early next year and glass wont be out till 2014 for consuners and next year for devs). And yet they were shown off and now all your hewring is good arti les about microsoft and google and how they are pushkng their ecosystems and the future of computer electronics. By showing things that wont be out yet your showing people you have a viable product and your brand will be a place to usher in a fantastic space for developers.
Also im wonder how the Wii U will be marketed? If they push too hravoly with tbe its a tablet like they have bee doing they will be going up against real tablets too closely.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: rlse9 on June 29, 2012, 06:55:09 PM
I'm going to disagree with the majority, in that I agree with Nintendo's reluctance to show future titles. First, it keeps the competition guessing as to your strategy. But more importantly, it allows Nintendo to go all out next E3, stealing the attention away from Sony and Microsoft's next consoles. Timing is as important as the nature of your news. Could Nintendo have shown one major game to create a positive impression? Sure, (and I don't think Pikmin 3 was this game) but I think having mostly tech demos to stimulate the imagination of your audience is sufficient for now. The whole point is to not be forgotten next year when the competition increases.
Your point that they need to have a good showing next year when they're going to have to compete with the next generation consoles is a good one. The only thing I wonder is if by that time, it's already going to be too late to have a chance to capture the core gaming audience. Many seem to have already lost interest and forgotten and the system isn't even out. Maybe I'm crazy but this feels like the WiiU could end up like the Dreamcast, caught half way in between generations and people will take a wait and see approach and end up choosing the next Sony or Microsoft consoles because they're far ahead technologically. Obviously, Nintendo is in a completely different place financially and Nintendo's first party games are superior and they're coming off of the best selling console of last generation so it's a different situation so who knows. I want the WiiU to be successful but I just don't see that being the most likely scenario at this point.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 29, 2012, 10:25:14 PM
I'm going to disagree with the majority, in that I agree with Nintendo's reluctance to show future titles. First, it keeps the competition guessing as to your strategy. But more importantly, it allows Nintendo to go all out next E3, stealing the attention away from Sony and Microsoft's next consoles. Timing is as important as the nature of your news. Could Nintendo have shown one major game to create a positive impression? Sure, (and I don't think Pikmin 3 was this game) but I think having mostly tech demos to stimulate the imagination of your audience is sufficient for now. The whole point is to not be forgotten next year when the competition increases.
Your point that they need to have a good showing next year when they're going to have to compete with the next generation consoles is a good one. The only thing I wonder is if by that time, it's already going to be too late to have a chance to capture the core gaming audience. Many seem to have already lost interest and forgotten and the system isn't even out. Maybe I'm crazy but this feels like the WiiU could end up like the Dreamcast, caught half way in between generations and people will take a wait and see approach and end up choosing the next Sony or Microsoft consoles because they're far ahead technologically. Obviously, Nintendo is in a completely different place financially and Nintendo's first party games are superior and they're coming off of the best selling console of last generation so it's a different situation so who knows. I want the WiiU to be successful but I just don't see that being the most likely scenario at this point.
I think it's coming down to a Mexican stand-off between Nintendo and MicroSony. Will the PS4 and XBox720 make a huge, expensive graphical leap in order to defunct the WiiU and please Epic, or will they look at their bottom lines and make a gentle, multi-media focused upgrade? It'll be years before the economy gets back up to the same snuff it was when last gen launched. Will they risk a high PS3-esque pricetag and slow adoption? Or will they position themselves about as far ahead of the WiiU as the Gamecube and Xbox were ahead of the PS2?
I honestly think it could go either way, and that, despite everyone's thirst for crazy Sci-fi graphics, it would be healthier to slow-walk the generational upgrades and tamp down on the gross boom-bust software cycle and usurious DLC/online practices.
Time will tell!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: shingi_70 on June 30, 2012, 07:37:38 AM
Heres the thing people forgot whe tqlking about expensive consoles. Nintendo and Sony cant afflrd to sell **** at a loss but Microsoft can and will. Whats to stop microsoft frlm putting out an uber powerful system and selling it at $350 for a loss. Tbats not even considering the. Adapting the $99 xbox plan to next gen as well as it being carried as a viable option on cable companies.
Microsoft is probably in tbe best postion of tbe big three going into next gen. Dont think for a second microsoft wont throw their weight around to deliver a more powerful system while undercutting everyone else.
Also remember this
- Sony had the most popular system last gen. -Sony had probably the best mix of thord party and first party ever -The PS3 was a flop and maybe even a commerical failure for most of its life.
So I wouldnt use any of Nintendos past success as an example. When things such as connectivity and and eco system are becoming more important and nintendo barley has either.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 30, 2012, 07:43:43 AM
Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to? If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: shingi_70 on June 30, 2012, 09:53:14 AM
While I do think all three will play it safe microaoft could throw things in tbeir favor by not doing so.
Thr problem with yhe PS3 was the cost and it was hard tk develop for. Now If microsoft went with a uber powerful system they take a loss on could be a be an advantage.
Seeing as the next gen xbox will probably once again be the lead dev platform (at least for western games) then going all out might be wortb it in the long. Plus microsoft is looking to be the king of the living room and wants the long console cycles so it would mKe sense to future proof.
That and after reading the leaked document and going back through what we knoe about windows 8 and windows phone for microsoft to do what they want to do its going to have to well speced.
On a more related note since EA is showing off there Wii U stuff next month can we expect another Nintendo Direct?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 30, 2012, 02:55:25 PM
If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.
In the short term it may not be in their best interest, but in the long term it would be... and especially so if they manage to knock Sony out of the video game industry for good. If they do that, Microsoft would not face any serious competition in consoles ever again and they would have the same sort of monopoly there that they do now on operating systems.
I don't think Microsoft views Nintendo as a threat, and Nintendo wouldn't be badly effected if Microsoft went all out on a beast of a machine, but Sony definitely would be hurt, and maybe it would even be a lethal blow to them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 30, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
The presence of larger and better-funded competitors like Sony and especially Microsoft in the market is a major reason why Nintendo needs to continually shift, differentiate, and expand their market experience. If they stop moving forward and try to compete on pre-existing, commoditized gaming paradigms, they'll be outspent and outgunned in the long run.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 30, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.
As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MagicCow64 on June 30, 2012, 05:32:22 PM
Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.
As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.
It's difficult to say how well the 360 has benefited the bottom line over time, but Microsoft's entertainment division is not doing all that hot, it's just doing better than Sony and Nintendo. Microsoft seems more interested in expanding its phone and media businesses: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-entertainment-division-diverse-profitable/
The eventual domination of the 360 this gen has helped turn things around for Microsoft, but their life-to-date entertainment division is still in the red by as much as $5 billion (as of this 2011 article), and the question is exactly what this board has been discussing: can they sell another console at a huge initial loss? http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-21/tech/29975028_1_windows-phone-microsoft-nintendo
Given how much money MS has pissed away on Bing and plowed into establishing the Xbox brand, I know what my opinion would be if I was a shareholder.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on June 30, 2012, 05:47:03 PM
Does anyone know what the net profit/loss is for the xbox 360 at this point? I know they spent billions on it and they were in the red for a long time, but right now the 360 is the best selling console on the market and it has been that way for awhile, so are they out of the red yet? If the 360 ultimately became profitable then that would be all the more reason why Microsoft would want to repeat that strategy.
As we've seen, Nintendo is perfectly capable of getting by with a console that is a generation behind, but can Sony do that? If the PS4 ends up being a generation behind the 420 will Sony be able to survive? On the other hand, they could beef the PS4 up to match the 420, but do they have enough money to do this again? This is the dilemma they face, and either way they might be screwed.
It's difficult to say how well the 360 has benefited the bottom line over time, but Microsoft's entertainment division is not doing all that hot, it's just doing better than Sony and Nintendo. Microsoft seems more interested in expanding its phone and media businesses: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/microsofts-entertainment-division-diverse-profitable/
The eventual domination of the 360 this gen has helped turn things around for Microsoft, but their life-to-date entertainment division is still in the red by as much as $5 billion (as of this 2011 article), and the question is exactly what this board has been discussing: can they sell another console at a huge initial loss? http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-21/tech/29975028_1_windows-phone-microsoft-nintendo
Given how much money MS has pissed away on Bing and plowed into establishing the Xbox brand, I know what my opinion would be if I was a shareholder.
Supposedly with just the last 6 fiscal years of that Division that handles XBox, Zune, Windows Phone and whatever else that group is like $200 million in the black? I guess the argument is that the XBox 360 is profitable because the other things in that division can be considered duds.
Personally, I haven't seen any sign that MS isn't ready to keep investing money, I think they still consider XBox a long-term startegic move that isn't essentially worth it in and of itself, but IS worth it to them as a means of trojan-horsing their other divisions into the living room and fending off other companies from doing the same.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 30, 2012, 06:38:09 PM
Any losses Microsoft might suffer from the NeXbox420 will more than be made up for by Windows 8.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Stogi on June 30, 2012, 07:02:32 PM
Yeah but that's just bad business.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: SixthAngel on June 30, 2012, 07:32:21 PM
Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?
Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.
If only one console is a beast machine it isn't going to crush the competition. It took both the ps3 and 360 together to make development worthwhile. Unless the next xbox vastly increases its user-base for some unpredictable reason one console becoming a beast would be suicide in this day when ports are the norm. The system being a beast just isn't much of a selling point. They would be asking developers to focus on their platform and theirs alone years in advance despite the fact that they can't port games and the development is more expensive. I can't imagine anyone outside Epic and other companies that sell technology instead of games supporting it very much if they have any business sense.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Shaymin on June 30, 2012, 08:30:13 PM
Any losses Microsoft might suffer from the NeXbox420 will more than be made up for by Windows 7.
Fixed that for you. Windows 8 is the "odd" OS version that tanks (see: ME, Vista)
Look up how much they sold of Windows Vista. And beyond bitching nereds most of what has been heard from developers and tech press have said its good. Ive been using the beta since the consumer release and the metro stuff works perfectly on a tablet and the desktop side is windows 7 on steroids.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 30, 2012, 08:37:51 PM
If Sony and Nintendo played it safe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to do so as well.
In the short term it may not be in their best interest, but in the long term it would be... and especially so if they manage to knock Sony out of the video game industry for good. If they do that, Microsoft would not face any serious competition in consoles ever again and they would have the same sort of monopoly there that they do now on operating systems.
I don't think Microsoft views Nintendo as a threat, and Nintendo wouldn't be badly effected if Microsoft went all out on a beast of a machine, but Sony definitely would be hurt, and maybe it would even be a lethal blow to them.
Microsoft's goal isn't to crush its competition, it's to make money. If they play it safe and release a console that can be profitable in the short term instead of taking huge losses, they'll make more money.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MegaByte on June 30, 2012, 08:49:31 PM
Microsoft could do that, but why would they if they didn't have to?
Because this way they could crush their competitors, just like they did to Netscape back in the '90s.
If only one console is a beast machine it isn't going to crush the competition. It took both the ps3 and 360 together to make development worthwhile. Unless the next xbox vastly increases its user-base for some unpredictable reason one console becoming a beast would be suicide in this day when ports are the norm. The system being a beast just isn't much of a selling point. They would be asking developers to focus on their platform and theirs alone years in advance despite the fact that they can't port games and the development is more expensive. I can't imagine anyone outside Epic and other companies that sell technology instead of games supporting it very much if they have any business sense.
See the problem with that is most developerd already have experience with long console cycles and a good portion of the industy uses third party dev tools. Also I think you misunderstand what a beast of a system would mean for the industry. Wii U and the PS4 would still get the games but they wouldnt look as good. Its not like a wii Situation were the sytem isnt desgined to run these games. Seeing as Windows 8 and the Next Xbox will both running thr next Versikn of Direct X as well as sharing all Apis this allows developers to make the PC version he target as it will be the same version as the 720 and then being ported to the other platforms. This would possibly ensure that the NextBox would be the lead platform for alot of games next gen.
And the xbox is sure to increase userbase if they use models they have been testing with the 360, suh as on contract phones and the 360 being pushed by cable companies.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 30, 2012, 08:58:20 PM
Microsoft's goal isn't to crush its competition, it's to make money.
Proximate goal, ultimate goal.
Except going out of their way to crush the competition in this manner would significantly hurt their ability to make money. Especially because, as SixthAngel pointed out, if Sony and Nintendo are within porting range of each other and Microsoft's way higher, most developers are going to be hesitant to support Microsoft's platform.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 30, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
The goal is always to make money, but if Microsoft manages to force Sony out of the business and they get a monopolistic stranglehold on the console market then they will make a LOT more money in the long run. If they "play it safe" they would make money in the short term, but they would have no chance of becoming a monopoly and they wouldn't make as much money in the long run.
Playing it safe and releasing a modest console which makes a modest profit is chump change compared to what Microsoft is really after.
most developers are going to be hesitant to support Microsoft's platform.
The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.
But something tells me Microsoft isn't going to ease up on the money hats. No developer is going to resist them. So Microsoft's platform will continue to see exclusives, times exclusives, exclusive dlc, and timed exclusive DLC, and so on. Microsoft is a sugardaddy and developers love to support them because Microsoft pays generously for that support.
Combine that with the fact Microsoft's platform will be the most similar to PCs and easiest to port from PCs and I don't think developer support will be any issue whatsoever. Sony and Nintendo may have systems closer to each other, but the PC platform will be closer to Microsoft's console and that means the odds are even.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on July 02, 2012, 03:23:14 AM
Pretty sure even M$ was planning to lose money on its first two versions of the Xbox. When they started actually making money (not enough to make up for the billions lost during the first Xbox era and the first couple of years of the 360), they probably changed their strategy. I would not be surprised if the nexbox ends up being either sold for a minimal loss or even a slight profit. They got a taste of making money in this industry and they don't want to give that up. All three systems will end up being close a la the PS2/Xbox/GCN era. It'll really be the gimmicks that each system brings that will decide who wins this next gen. Either the gamepad will sell the Wii U or the Kinect 2/Smart Glass thingy will sell the 420 or whatever Sony steals from others will sell the PSOrbis.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 17, 2012, 06:20:32 PM
Pretty sure even M$ was planning to lose money on its first two versions of the Xbox. When they started actually making money (not enough to make up for the billions lost during the first Xbox era and the first couple of years of the 360), they probably changed their strategy. I would not be surprised if the nexbox ends up being either sold for a minimal loss or even a slight profit. They got a taste of making money in this industry and they don't want to give that up.
Actually Microsoft wanted to sell every Xbox 360 at a profit (or as close to it as possible).
Source: The Xbox Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 17, 2012, 06:23:16 PM
The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.
Seeing how quickly developers supported the Xbox 360 when it launched, I think they'll gladly support the next Xbox. Sony might have a harder time next gen, because they promised so much with the PS Vita, but the support just isn't there.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 17, 2012, 07:50:51 PM
The worst case scenario is they just wouldn't take full advantage of the extra power of the Microsoft platform. They would still support it regardless, but they just might not go out of their way to utilize all the bells and whistles.
Seeing how quickly developers supported the Xbox 360 when it launched, I think they'll gladly support the next Xbox. Sony might have a harder time next gen, because they promised so much with the PS Vita, but the support just isn't there.
That's what happens sometimes when you write checks that depend on someone else in order to cash. Nintendo knows they can't just take for granted that 3rd party support will automatically be there. Apparently this is a lesson Sony hasn't learned yet. Sony has always had it good in the industry and 3rd parties have always tripped over themselves in their rush to support Playstation hardware, but starting around 2006 things have slowly started to change.
Sony is now not much different than Nintendo was in 1996. 3rd party support alone isn't going to cut it for them anymore, so they have to step up to the plate with more AAA 1st party titles. That's the only way the Vita is going to turn itself around.
But with all of Sony's hands occupied with the gearing up for the PS4, can they give the Vita the support it needs?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Evan_B on July 17, 2012, 09:21:07 PM
Are you saying Nintendo was too reliant on 3rd party devs in 1996?
Honestly, a fair amount of Sony's recent 1st party efforts have just been coasting on their respective franchises' histories, something that NSMBU threatens to do as well. At least the 3D Mario efforts, Zelda, and Metroid have been attempting to build and evolve in core concept and design- none of Sony's IPs seem to be doing that. The Last of Us looks like it could just be Uncharted with a kid.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MagicCow64 on July 17, 2012, 10:37:56 PM
Are you saying Nintendo was too reliant on 3rd party devs in 1996?
Honestly, a fair amount of Sony's recent 1st party efforts have just been coasting on their respective franchises' histories, something that NSMBU threatens to do as well. At least the 3D Mario efforts, Zelda, and Metroid have been attempting to build and evolve in core concept and design- none of Sony's IPs seem to be doing that. The Last of Us looks like it could just be Uncharted with a kid.
I'm mildly curious as to why Microsoft didn't jump at the opportunity to buy Activision. They'd lose multi-platform money, but if they could deprive PS4 of the Call of Duty franchise in perpetuity, it could seriously hobble Sony. Even if/when CoD fades in popularity, the PS4 would be knee-capped out of the gate (not to mention the WiiU). Sony's first party stuff is indeed feeling a bit wheezy, and if they had another leg kicked out from under them they could be in serious trouble. Alas, my 13-year-old dream of Sony going away will not be aided by this scenario given MS' pass.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 18, 2012, 07:43:32 AM
Activision isn't for sale right now (and haven't been for many years, before COD came out), so no one has had a chance to buy them.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 18, 2012, 08:28:47 AM
COD has been around since 2003. Has it been that long?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 18, 2012, 08:34:27 AM
1990 was the last time (which is when Bobby Kottick bought it).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 18, 2012, 08:57:37 AM
From what I read he only bought a 25% stake in it. He doesn't own the whole thing outright.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 18, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
I am not sure how much he owns now, but he (or at least his investor group) did buy it outright. Vivendi SA got a good chunk through the merger of Activision and Vivendi Games.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Uncle_Optimus on July 18, 2012, 10:12:40 AM
Activision isn't for sale right now (and haven't been for many years, before COD came out), so no one has had a chance to buy them.
Wait, this bloomberg article makes it pretty clear that Vivendi (who owns a 60+% controlling share in Acti as far as I know) is looking for a buyer, but is still In a vetting process in which no strong suitors have stepped forth. The article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-13/vivendi-s-search-for-activision-suitors-off-to-slow-start.html
@MagicCow, the article also goes a bit into why Microsoft has balked despite the obvious development assets they would gain...it may boil down to the conflict a specific platform holder would have with shareholders if they were to significantly limit the publishers prospective revenue by forcing them to publish for MS platforms only. Just using the CoD example, for instance, cutting out a PS (and in the future Wii U) would comprise a hefty bulk of the game's revenue and thus impacts the true valuation the company would have for a "biased" suitor like MS.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: MagicCow64 on July 18, 2012, 02:11:57 PM
Activision isn't for sale right now (and haven't been for many years, before COD came out), so no one has had a chance to buy them.
Wait, this bloomberg article makes it pretty clear that Vivendi (who owns a 60+% controlling share in Acti as far as I know) is looking for a buyer, but is still In a vetting process in which no strong suitors have stepped forth. The article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-13/vivendi-s-search-for-activision-suitors-off-to-slow-start.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-13/vivendi-s-search-for-activision-suitors-off-to-slow-start.html)
@MagicCow, the article also goes a bit into why Microsoft has balked despite the obvious development assets they would gain...it may boil down to the conflict a specific platform holder would have with shareholders if they were to significantly limit the publishers prospective revenue by forcing them to publish for MS platforms only. Just using the CoD example, for instance, cutting out a PS (and in the future Wii U) would comprise a hefty bulk of the game's revenue and thus impacts the true valuation the company would have for a "biased" suitor like MS.
Ah, thanks for the info, that does indeed make sense. I was thinking about Microsoft as if they were Mr. Burns and could do whatever they want, but yeah, shareholders would probably not be too jazzed about having half their revenue amputated in the pursuit of monopoly market share by the umbrella entity.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 18, 2012, 05:40:27 PM
Optimus, I am aware of that (I even posted a thread on it a few weeks ago). It's not official though, Vivendi just says that all options are on the table (not just selling them).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on July 18, 2012, 09:26:46 PM
Activision isn't for sale right now (and haven't been for many years, before COD came out), so no one has had a chance to buy them.
Wait, this bloomberg article makes it pretty clear that Vivendi (who owns a 60+% controlling share in Acti as far as I know) is looking for a buyer, but is still In a vetting process in which no strong suitors have stepped forth. The article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-13/vivendi-s-search-for-activision-suitors-off-to-slow-start.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-13/vivendi-s-search-for-activision-suitors-off-to-slow-start.html)
@MagicCow, the article also goes a bit into why Microsoft has balked despite the obvious development assets they would gain...it may boil down to the conflict a specific platform holder would have with shareholders if they were to significantly limit the publishers prospective revenue by forcing them to publish for MS platforms only. Just using the CoD example, for instance, cutting out a PS (and in the future Wii U) would comprise a hefty bulk of the game's revenue and thus impacts the true valuation the company would have for a "biased" suitor like MS.
Any console manufacturer that buys an outside developer is risking that chance. It isn't just limited to Activision. You could say the same thing about Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch, Media Molecule, etc. That's the reason why Insomniac decided to remain independent; while they still make games exclusively for Sony, they are also free to pursue other platforms (which is the case with Overstrike).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: nickmitch on July 18, 2012, 09:49:19 PM
What he's saying is MS would have a much tougher time buying out Activision for those reasons. Combine that with MS not wanting to take the risk means a no deal.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 18, 2012, 10:31:16 PM
Microsoft already makes a ton of money (assume that the 360 version sells 2 million copies, that is $36 million Microsoft makes just from the disc and not even counting DLC) from literally doing nothing (unless they choose to give money to have the commercials feature just the 360 logo).
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on August 06, 2012, 05:56:32 PM
Has it stopped yet?
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Caterkiller on August 06, 2012, 06:27:07 PM
Hahaha. Kind of.
I think once Chozo realized he isn't buying a Wii U, stressing over the release date was pointless.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on August 06, 2012, 07:38:13 PM
I think he'll get one still. It'll just be a while from the launch. Ian will get one as well. I think the Wii U will get all the third party games this time around and I think he will decide it's close enough to what he wants.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on August 06, 2012, 07:50:36 PM
I just assumed that the complaints moved on to the 3DS XL's lack of an AC Adapter in Japan, and also NSMB 2 in general.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on August 07, 2012, 09:38:02 AM
Not getting one? I already have mine pre-ordered.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on August 07, 2012, 02:23:19 PM
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Oblivion on August 07, 2012, 04:45:03 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on August 07, 2012, 04:48:18 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Kairon on August 07, 2012, 04:49:52 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
So Chozo's already in for a $999.99 Wii U spend already? We all owe him an apology, he's the biggest Wii U supporter on the site!
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on August 07, 2012, 06:10:51 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
So Chozo's already in for a $999.99 Wii U spend already? We all owe him an apology, he's the biggest Wii U supporter on the site!
He's a closet supporter yelling to the rooftops that he wants it to fail, but secretly loving it trying not to let everyone know for fear of being shunned. We promise to accept you regardless of your game system choices, Chozo. We do not judge here...in this instance.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Chozo Ghost on August 07, 2012, 06:53:47 PM
I want it to fail so that I can have it all exclusively to myself.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Ian Sane on August 07, 2012, 07:18:51 PM
I believe Chozo wants the Wii U to fail IF it is not up to snuff and effectively "deserves" to fail, so that Nintendo learns the correct lessons from it. Though I guess he doesn't want to contribute to any such failure himself.
I would like to get a Wii U sooner than later and to do so because Nintendo quickly provides a compelling reason for me to do so. My approach is entirely that they betrayed my trust with the Wii so they have to win me back with a quality product that won't disappoint me like the Wii did. I want that to happen but fear it won't. It certainly won't if everyone who bitches and complains doesn't have the willpower to vote with their wallet.
Though I tried this approach with the WWE and it pretty much amounted to Homer telling Moe that "[he] just lost himself a customer!"
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: broodwars on August 07, 2012, 08:06:27 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
Indeed. Some employees at my local GameStop told me that Wii U games right now have a placeholder pre-order price of $99.99 as well.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: tendoboy1984 on August 07, 2012, 09:29:27 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
Indeed. Some employees at my local GameStop told me that Wii U games right now have a placeholder pre-order price of $99.99 as well.
Why is the placeholder price $99? Wii U games will obviously fall within the $50-$60 range, since they are comparable to Xbox 360 and PS3 games.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: TJ Spyke on August 07, 2012, 10:29:04 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
Indeed. Some employees at my local GameStop told me that Wii U games right now have a placeholder pre-order price of $99.99 as well.
Why is the placeholder price $99? Wii U games will obviously fall within the $50-$60 range, since they are comparable to Xbox 360 and PS3 games.
It's just a default number. It's like how placeholder release dates tend to be on the 1st or 15th, just standard. Makes it easier to just lower it down to the actual price. I am sure they have an official reason, but that is basically why.
Title: Re: People Need To Stop Bitching
Post by: Louieturkey on August 09, 2012, 01:32:21 PM
Where the heck do you have it preordered? No Gamestop I know of will let it be preordered yet because they don't know the launch price yet, and most retailers won't do it yet either.
That hasn't stopped retailers before. Usually they enter they enter the price as $999.99 until then
Indeed. Some employees at my local GameStop told me that Wii U games right now have a placeholder pre-order price of $99.99 as well.
Why is the placeholder price $99? Wii U games will obviously fall within the $50-$60 range, since they are comparable to Xbox 360 and PS3 games.
It's just a default number. It's like how placeholder release dates tend to be on the 1st or 15th, just standard. Makes it easier to just lower it down to the actual price. I am sure they have an official reason, but that is basically why.
They never want to underprice a game for fear of backlash when the cancel preorders to start selling a higher priced version. So they price the preorders high until they get the correct price. Then it sort of looks like they are giving anyone who actually preordered at the higher price a deal. You never know when some company decides that $60 is not enough for a game and they want to sell it at $70.
