Topic: Let's Talk About That "Brand-New Concept"

[Adrock]

This is one of a few threads I've been thinking about starting for a few months now, but as usual, I've been lazy busy. What I'd like to accomplish here is a discussion about what Nintendo's vague "brand new concept" may be. I considered posting this in Soren's "NX Rumors and Speculation Thread" but I didn't want to disrupt/derail it. This is an "ideas" thread rather than anything based on internet rumors, a place we can post drawings, mock-ups, and ideas/thoughts without it descending into negative clusterfuckery. I mean it. If you want to say, "It'll be some gimmicky bullshit controller for rubes," fine, duly noted, but there are dozens of ruined threads for that.

I'll start, but I'd really like to hear everyone else's suggestions, and what you think of mine. Please no name-calling. Cat-calling is not only accepted but encouraged. Seriously, put your thinking cap on and post some suggestions.

Before I get into the idea I've been kicking around since Nintendo passively announced NX in March, I want to run through a few important and related quotes. My suggestion is based on things Nintendo has been hinting at for years now.

In terms of our platform integration, as I explained to you a short while ago, we are not saying that we are planning to integrate our platforms into one. What we are saying is that we would like to integrate software development methods, operating systems, and built-in software and software assets for each platform so that we can use them across different machines.¹

Previously, our handheld video game devices and home video game consoles had to be developed separately as the technological requirements of each system, whether it was battery-powered or connected to a power supply, differed greatly, leading to completely different architectures and, hence, divergent methods of software development. However, because of vast technological advances, it became possible to achieve a fair degree of architectural integration.² We discussed this point, and we ultimately concluded that it was the right time to integrate the two teams.

For example, currently it requires a huge amount of effort to port Wii software to Nintendo 3DS because not only their resolutions but also the methods of software development are entirely different. The same thing happens when we try to port Nintendo 3DS software to Wii U. If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms.³

In this perspective, while we are only going to be able to start this with the next system, it will become important for us to accurately take advantage of what we have done with the Wii U architecture. It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately.⁴ When this happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems.⁵

Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated.⁶ In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models.⁷ The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages⁸ as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future.

Though I cannot confirm when it will be launched or any other details of the system, since I have confirmed that it will be "a dedicated video game platform with a brand new concept," it should mean that we do not intend it to become a simple "replacement" for Nintendo 3DS or Wii U.⁹

Interpretations:
1. Not a hybrid. Also, unifying the console and handheld divisions was done in order to simplify development.
2. Iwata suggests console and handheld sharing the same architecture, could mean both go x86-64 or both go ARM. Back in December 2014, AMD announced that it won a semi-custom design contract for a game console without revealing which company is employing AMD's services. The logical conclusion is Nintendo since it's the hardware maker with an aging handheld and an ailing home console.
3. Porting has sucked for a number of reasons. Simplifying this processes will alleviate shortages.
4. "Absorb" could mean "port," or it could mean "emulate" without giving too much away. It's doubtful Nintendo uses PowerPC again, but what it is using must be able to run Wii U. My understanding of software emulation (which may be wrong) is that the hardware must be able to simulate the legacy hardware through "brute force." It sounds like Nintendo is making Wii U software emulation a priority, and with good reason. It released a lot of quality games this generation that many people didn't play due to Wii U's poor sales.
5. Console and handheld will be closer than ever. I'll delve further into this later.
6. Not a hybrid.
7. Nintendo recently denied a rumor that NX would run Android. Then again, Nintendo denied DS Lite rumors, DSi rumors, 3DS XL rumors etc. I'd advocate Nintendo creating its own Android fork (and just playing nice with since Google generally dislikes when companies fork Android) since it wouldn't have to start from scratch.
8. Again, Nintendo is concerned about software shortages as it should.
9. Hmm, maybe because it's replacing both.

As I've stated before, I'm not a fan of a hybrid system. I mentioned this a few months ago:

A hybrid paints Nintendo into a corner and forces it to make compromises it may not want to make. A console and a handheld that play the same games makes the most sense for Nintendo and solves a big problem: supporting two platforms. Scalable engines and DLC make this much easier for the company to go down this route. I think Nintendo would still prefer to sell two Mario Karts or two Super Smash Bros. to people, but it's getting harder to justify from both a development and consumer perspective. With the blurring of console and handheld games over the past 10 years or so, I feel like this is the best case scenario.

That's essentially the crux of my idea, but I'll discuss it a bit further. NX is both a console and a handheld yet separate. I don't know how feasible this is from a hardware standpoint so I'll ignore that. There was a recent rumor about NX being less powerful than PS4. The handheld, let's call it HDS because I doubt Nintendo is passing up that opportunity (no, I'm not taking credit for coining that either), most certainly would be. Based on note 4 above, it'll be more powerful than Wii U if Nintendo plans on a Wii U virtual console. Failing that, the hardware has to be powerful enough to port. Emulation is a cheaper and easier option though. The reason VC support has been so sporadic on 3DS and Wii U could be because Nintendo shifted its focus on a universal emulator for NX, one that can work on both console and handheld.

Cost is certainly a concern, and I don't usually advocate taking a loss, but if Nintendo takes a bath on hardware, HDS would be the better choice. Nintendo's handhelds are just more popular. Make it as powerful as possible while keeping the price of at least the non-XL model at $199.99. When it comes to hardware, I've been of the mindset that Nintendo should either aim high or aim low though I favored the latter for personal monetary reasons. In this scenario, it can do both. HDS is the lower end. The console is the higher end. While it would be amazing if Nintendo, of all companies, launched a 4K gaming capable console, I don't know how feasible a "Nintendo4K" would be at a reasonable MSRP. The magic number seems to be $399.99. Let's call it "Nintendo 7/N7" from here on out.

Why even release a console? Different markets favor different kinds of hardware. Some people prefer consoles (like myself), some people prefer handhelds (weirdos), some buy both anyway. HDS would be geared toward Japan; N7 would be geared toward the West. If Nintendo launches a console at $399.99, the hardware better reflect that. I think $200 is a wide enough margin between HDS and N7. You get a lot for that money. It's essentially like a SNES with a Super Gameboy built-in on day one. Besides Streetpass stuff, it can play every HDS game. If you have both HDS and N7, you can take your save file with you.

A more powerful console than PS4 isn't automatically going to bring in third parties though the upside is that's one less hurdle in the way. Nintendo could always go the SteamOS route, but I discussed that at length in an older thread (that may not be the best solution anyway considering how poor certain PC ports have been lately). One problem I think people might have is that Nintendo would be mostly developing slightly above Wii U-level games for an entire generation. Yeah, the games would be upscaled and whatnot on N7, but to me, that's easier to live with than software droughts. This is better for Nintendo's internal teams and people like Masahiro Sakurai who would only need to make one Super Smash Bros. again. In this scenario, Nintendo is pooling together all of its talent to support one platform, except on the rare occasion that HDS hardware couldn't handle a game like how Xenoblade Chronicles 3DS needed a hardware boost of New 3DS. Put a tab on the N7 game card so it physically can't fit in HDS, like how 3DS games can't fit into  regular DS. This also brings up the problem of file sizes and the cost of physical media/solid state memory. I don't have a solution for that.

Here's the really interesting part: cross-play between N7 and HDS. That has never been done before on this scale. Every multiplayer HDS game is compatible. That's a brand new concept. I thought it was silly that there was no cross play option between Super Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. Hyrule Warriors is coming to 3DS and carries the same problem. I mean, I understand due to hardware limitations and so forth, but if Nintendo made a point of unifying its console and handheld divisions, this is the first thing that needs to be addressed. Additionally, I think this is how the GamePad concept can finally realize its potential. Both N7 and HDS use an updated version of Broadcom's low-latency transmission connectivity technology. On N7, four GamePads can be supported at the same time (720p/60fps). On HDS, single card multiplayer, up to four players, one HDS (60fps). Handheld multiplayer at a fraction of the cost.

I made that in MS Paint. It isn't to scale. I know it isn't a great picture. And of course, I think there should an updated Pro Controller.

Ultimately, this is just a culmination of Hiroshi Yamauchi's own words: "The hardware is just a box you buy only because you want to play Mario games." My suggestion for this "brand new concept" is based on a very old idea. Nintendo's bread and butter is its software which is the entire point here. Make a box that's most appealing to the market your going for, the games will be there. Develop one Mario Kart engine and use it for post-release DLC. Same with Super Smash Bros. minus Sakurai undergoing an existential crisis. Nintendo has handled DLC fairly well on Wii U. Perhaps it can use DLC to make up the revenue of not selling two versions of something.

[Enner]

Yay, all aboard the two console, one home and one handheld, train!

Thinking back on the Android rumor, it makes sense that Nintendo would develop their own fork of it ala Amazon Fire. Isn't the current Wii and Wii U OS CiOS, some old fork of iOS? I'm no computer scientist, but I'd imagine one would say all roads lead back to Unix.

On pricing, I'd go with a split of $149.99 for the handheld and $299.99 for the home console. Given the rumor of the NX being less powerful than the PS4 and Nintendo being adamant on having affordable prices, these price points feel more likely to me.

[Adrock]

Considering how poorly 3DS has aged and how two hardware updates (e.g. DSi, New 3DS) have failed to make the sales splash Nintendo hoped for, I can see Nintendo going with more capable launch hardware for HDS so it can last an entire generation. And if that's the case, I can't imagine getting the price down to $149.99. Perhaps it's possible with the way hardware is slowly plateauing. I'm not sure this is the generation for it.

I'm in favor of Nintendo forking Android though this gets particularly hazy. According to Ars Technica:

What many people think of as "Android" actually falls into two categories: the open parts from the Android Open Source Project (AOSP), which are the foundation of Android, and the closed source parts, which are all the Google-branded apps. While Google will never go the entire way and completely close Android, the company seems to be doing everything it can to give itself leverage over the existing open source project. And the company's main method here is to bring more and more apps under the closed source "Google" umbrella.

With Nintendo entering the mobile gaming market, it's probably not a good idea to rock the boat. Nintendo would likely be stripping Android down for its purposes and it doesn't need most of Google's apps so definitely YouTube, maybe Hangouts, and possibly Gmail. The thing is Nintendo isn't making phones and tablets and it doesn't want to make phones and tablets so it wouldn't be competing in the same space. Nintendo wants a single platform that can be shared between dedicated gaming devices. Nintendo and Google have a good working relationship so I wonder if the two companies can come to an agreement in which Nintendo forks Android without getting exiled from Google's Android Garden of Eden.

[Fatty The Hutt]

I like the quotes you've picked out. Going by those:
1. Nintendo is once again aping it's idol, Apple
2. Instead of featuring an iPad-like controller, like last time, Nintendo will instead be aping the iOS concept.
3. With a Nintendo iOS (NiOS), Nintendo will be able to ape Apple by putting out many different hardware pieces that can handle any software you buy in the Nintendo App Store (Napp Store)
4. So, Nintendo gets to cater to all wallets both in the handheld and home markets. You can  game at home with the Nintendo iPad, you can game at home with a full-on Nintendo console that hooks up to your TV, you can game on the go with a Nintendo iPad Mini, you can game on the go with a 3DS clone, or a 2DS clone, you can game on the go with an iPhone sized device, or a Gameboy Micro sized device.
5. I think Nintendo will roll out 3 hardware types at first, a home console, a DS-like handheld and an iPad-type device. Other hardware variants will be trickled out after year one.
The only flaw in my theories is the two-screen concept that Nintendo already has built-n to 3DS and Wii U which I think they may not want to abandon.

[Ian Sane]

I'm just instinctively cynical when I hear an exec say something like "brand-new concept" because execs are full of ****.  If you go by what Iwata or Reggie or any exec at any company says everything the do is brilliant and innovative and the whole bit.  Nintendo could be offering something truly new or just a tired old concept with a Nintendo twist that in Iwata's mind makes it "brand new".  Or they could be doing the same Wii/Wii U type of concept where they throw in some non-traditional controller and think that's the key to success.  Like they think the Wii U's basic concept was fine but they just didn't have the right feature or game and if they get that right THIS time it will work out.

The scalable platform idea does sound plausible and it is truly different enough that it could change the way the industry works.  If it works it could work big and become the standard way of doing things and it is a way to bring the handheld and console into one basic format without that huge challenge of getting console capable hardware into a handheld that maintains decent battery life.

Potential issues I see with it is that games that are made for the handheld and then scaled up may come across as kind of a "smaller" experience.  Think of how Nintendo said that Ice Climbers got the axe in both versions of SSB because they couldn't get them working on the 3DS.  We'll see console games getting restricted by the lesser model.  Now you don't have to make the game work in both models per say, assuming Nintendo is okay with that.  Nintendo should be because if someone just wants to make a console game, creating scaled down assets for the handheld version is extra work they won't want to do.  I'm guessing the handheld game would usually work on the console just perhaps with pixelated visuals unless it has some Boktai like feature that requires it to be handheld only.

Of course if it still doesn't make it easy to port from the other consoles this is just the Wii U again.  Nintendo may get games out more frequently by only making one game for both platforms but if the third party support isn't there the console won't compete.  The very common situation where major games are released on every platform except Nintendo is a big problem and this might not address that.  If Nintendo's console now gets 12 games a year, all first party, instead of 6 that's merely better than the Wii U but not really good enough.  Nintendo spreading themselves too thin is a problem and this solves it really well but that's not the only problem with the Wii U and solving that problem alone isn't going to turn things around.  The third party support problem is the elephant in the room and until that problem is solved their consoles will struggle (unless they somehow get Wii-like mainstream success again).

Now does this seem like a likely solution from Nintendo?  Yeah it does.  I think Adrock's research into this is pretty good and it's a realistic and plausible idea.

[Ian Sane]

Wacky idea here and one that probably isn't technically feasible but what if in this scalable approach they somehow find a way to shoehorn the Wii U or possibly the 3DS into it.  Like they don't support it for long but they release a game that scales to a couple levels.  Level 1 is the handheld, level 2 is the Wii U, level 3 is the new console.  Typically a game jumps from level 1 to 3 with no special version for level 2 (it would just stay with the level 1 version).  But early on when Nintendo is trying to smooth the transition and not turn off existing Wii U owners they include level 2, the Wii U, in their earlier titles.  Who knows if they can even do this and if it has much value but it would be an interesting approach.

Oh and I realize that let's say Nintendo still doesn't match the hardware worth a damn.  Bummer but if that doesn't fly they can introduce new hardware at any time and still support the old one as a lower scale.  So it's much easier to replace hardware if it isn't up to par.  They can catch up to the competition at any time if they want to.

[ThePerm]

the whole ice climber thing was pure bullshit...that just sounded like a big excuse not to have ice climbers. I think it was more time constraints and the whole prestige thing....

if you take the bird away, and you bring it back well that's the magic trick.

They are about the same as the Dunk Hunt Dog and Duck in complexity. It can be done. You know one time I was talking with a programmer about a game he was making and he was telling me they had ran into a huge memory drain that took a while to figure out, turns out that one of the artists had put a gigantically huge texture file on the players foot(this was a soccer game). If they can do the duck hunt dog and duck, they can do the ice climbers, there must have been something else going on. They must not have been a high priority. Theres always DLC, and in that case they can make extra money.

[Adrock]

Potential issues I see with it is that games that are made for the handheld and then scaled up may come across as kind of a "smaller" experience.  Think of how Nintendo said that Ice Climbers got the axe in both versions of SSB because they couldn't get them working on the 3DS.  We'll see console games getting restricted by the lesser model.

I mention this in Enner's thread. This already happens on PC. The PC version should never be the worst version of a game yet this keeps happening. The benefit of a shared Nintendo platform is that developers would only have to work with two spec configurations.

And it's important to note that Sakurai and co couldn't get Ice Climbers to work on 3DS which aged so poorly. The Wii U version was clearly the lead project and Namco Bandai did its best to fit a Wii U game onto 3DS. If the games were developed independently of each other, maybe the team could have cracked Nana's AI on 3DS. This is where a shared platform and architectural integration would greatly help a project. And like I said in the op, in this scenario, take the loss on HDS.

Of course if it still doesn't make it easy to port from the other consoles this is just the Wii U again.  Nintendo may get games out more frequently by only making one game for both platforms but if the third party support isn't there the console won't compete.

There's evidence pointing toward a move to x86-64. AMD effectively outed Nintendo's next console in December. AMD also provides the APUs for both PS4 and Xbox One. I don't think porting is going to be difficult from a technological standpoint, at least on the console side. What's nice about this idea is that N7 would immediately benefit from support on HDS. The console would get a modicum of support by virtue of an integrated platform.

Oh and I realize that let's say Nintendo still doesn't match the hardware worth a damn.  Bummer but if that doesn't fly they can introduce new hardware at any time and still support the old one as a lower scale.  So it's much easier to replace hardware if it isn't up to par.  They can catch up to the competition at any time if they want to.

Honestly, I think that's part of the plan, but I worry that too many configurations confuses the message. I'd rather Nintendo just say, "Here's a console and here's a handheld. We're sticking with these for five years."

the whole ice climber thing was pure bullshit...that just sounded like a big excuse not to have ice climbers. I think it was more time constraints and the whole prestige thing....

...They are about the same as the Dunk Hunt Dog and Duck in complexity. It can be done.

If it was time constraints, Ice Climbers could and probably would have been DLC already. There's still another set of characters to be announced so we'll see.

Regarding Duck Hunt, the dog and duck function as one character. Nana had her own AI. Ice Climbers were closer to Rosalina and Luma, and even then Luma mostly mimics Rosalina's actions so Ice Climbers are still more complex.

[Ian Sane]

Honestly, I think that's part of the plan, but I worry that too many configurations confuses the message. I'd rather Nintendo just say, "Here's a console and here's a handheld. We're sticking with these for five years."

Yeah I'm thinking of it more as an emergency scenario.  It provides flexibility if they released new hardware that just outright bombs.

[Soren]

There's evidence pointing toward a move to x86-64. AMD effectively outed Nintendo's next console in December. AMD also provides the APUs for both PS4 and Xbox One. I don't think porting is going to be difficult from a technological standpoint, at least on the console side. What's nice about this idea is that N7 would immediately benefit from support on HDS. The console would get a modicum of support by virtue of an integrated platform.

Interesting. Do we know for sure then if Nintendo is finally ditching the Gekko Broadway Espresso Power PC CPU base they've had since the Gamecube? NX might not need to be fully up to snuff with PS4XB1 if it makes porting less of a headache for developers.

[Adrock]

Interesting. Do we know for sure then if Nintendo is finally ditching the Gekko Broadway Espresso Power PC CPU base they've had since the Gamecube? NX might not need to be fully up to snuff with PS4XB1 if it makes porting less of a headache for developers.

Not for sure, but Iwata basically stating Nintendo isn't using the same architecture as Wii U (while trying to "absorb" it) coupled with AMD's vague announcement certainly points in that direction. I believe AMD has been working on ARM so that's also a possibility. Based on timing and AMD's greater experience with x86-64, I have more faith on that.

[Wah]

Considering how poorly 3DS has aged and how two hardware updates (e.g. DSi, New 3DS) have failed to make the sales splash Nintendo hoped for, I can see Nintendo going with more capable launch hardware for HDS so it can last an entire generation. And if that's the case, I can't imagine getting the price down to $149.99. Perhaps it's possible with the way hardware is slowly plateauing. I'm not sure this is the generation for it.

I'm in favor of Nintendo forking Android though this gets particularly hazy. According to Ars Technica:

What many people think of as "Android" actually falls into two categories: the open parts from the Android Open Source Project (AOSP), which are the foundation of Android, and the closed source parts, which are all the Google-branded apps. While Google will never go the entire way and completely close Android, the company seems to be doing everything it can to give itself leverage over the existing open source project. And the company's main method here is to bring more and more apps under the closed source "Google" umbrella.

With Nintendo entering the mobile gaming market, it's probably not a good idea to rock the boat. Nintendo would likely be stripping Android down for its purposes and it doesn't need most of Google's apps so definitely YouTube, maybe Hangouts, and possibly Gmail. The thing is Nintendo isn't making phones and tablets and it doesn't want to make phones and tablets so it wouldn't be competing in the same space. Nintendo wants a single platform that can be shared between dedicated gaming devices. Nintendo and Google have a good working relationship so I wonder if the two companies can come to an agreement in which Nintendo forks Android without getting exiled from Google's Android Garden of Eden.

because there's no new fucking games for the new 3ds apart from a remake!