Topic: Nintendo Announces Nintendo 3DS

[MegaByte]

New 3D-capable handheld system does not require glasses.
 http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=22791

 In a surprise announcement, Nintendo Co., Ltd. released a brief teaser regarding their next portable system.  Tentatively called the Nintendo 3DS, the system features three-dimensional gameplay without the need for glasses.    

The handheld is set to release sometime in Nintendo's next fiscal year, which ends March 2011.  Nintendo promises that the system will include backwards compatibility with DS and DSi games.  Other details regarding the system and its 3D capabilities will be revealed at E3 on June 15th.    

Japan Correspondent Matthew Walker contributed to the translation.

[ThePerm]

maybe it uses a Fresnel lens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens

oh face tracking like that youtube video years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omNQAzBa0-I


http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/23/nintendo-3ds-announced-will-be-revealed-at-e3/

[NWR_pap64]

Yep, this is Nintendo alright. Everyone else will be using glasses for Digital 3D technology, Nintendo comes up with their own.

[ThePerm]

something tells me that the Wii 2 is going to have sensors on both sides, move = FAIL

[famicomplicated]

I'm guessing it uses Virtual Boy glasses ;-P

[ThePerm]

you can't see through a virtual boy...

[MegaByte]

something tells me that the Wii 2 is going to have sensors on both sides

Inside and outside?

[ControlerFleX]

3DS...... I'll bet money that that is the name of the system, I remember when Nintendo announced the DS and I thought "well that's too obvious DS is just Dual Screen" But that "DS" name ='s $$Dolla Dolla Bill Yall$$

But this sounds just right, Nintendo just shrunk the GameCube technology and I bet that was for this handheld.

GameCube graphics, six axis motion control, magical 3D screens, scratch proof screen, 3 megapixel camera, SD card slot, 15 gig internal hard drive, future proof(compatible with new Wii)........

[Stogi]

I'm wondering if this is AVATAR 3D or the 3D game we saw for the DSi. Both are 3D but there's a huge distinction.

[ThePerm]

watch the second link in my first post it pretty much sums up how it works

also not to be confused with Autodesk 3DS

[broodwars]

So in other words the DSi was just a complete waste of time like everyone thought it would be.  Figures.  Really, though...3D?  I'm getting tired of companies jumping all over that gimmick.

[greybrick]

I am really surprised that they announced this before the XL has even launched in the US.

[KDR_11k]

An announcement without pictures for something purely on technical specs way ahead of any real unveiling? WTF? Are you sure that's not falsified?


Other than that it'll probably encourage people to no longer make 2D games just so they can use the big gimmick of the system. It better offer something beyond 3D or it'll flop hard.

[NWR_DrewMG]

Color me interested.   Very much looking forward to what Nintendo has in line for this system.

[smallsharkbigbite]

I expected this to be an April's fools because of the name and because the w/o glasses note.  But alas, other websites have the story too.  Right now I'm not excited.  DSi and DSXL are too recent to replace and were never used to their abilities.  I'm also skeptical of the 3d w/o glasses.  Is there going to be a filter on the screen?  It just seems to me that 3d is the big push from TV manufacterers and if they could get a 3d image to look good w/o glasses they would have done it because its one of the biggest drawbacks of 3d.

[Pale]

If this is a fresnel lens, I will be very upset.  They better have come up with a better idea than that.

[Spinnzilla]

hopefully you can turn it off if you want.  But i'm generally excited to see what this is about.

Also, let's get a better online store!

[mac<censored>]

stupid stupid stupid

The benefits are "meh", and the drawbacks (slower, more data, more development time, reduced display quality *) severe.

ugh, 3d is the dumbest fad to come along in ages...  it's embarrassing to see a normally sensible company like Nintendo waste their time/money (and ours) with this crap.

(*) Well we don't actually know what display tech they're going to use, but unless they've discovered magic, it's a pretty good bet that the artifacts of the 3d system will make the display worse and more annoying

[NWR_Neal]

Well crap. That settles it.

I HAVE to go to E3 this year.

[Spak-Spang]

The thing is 3D can totally work with a handheld.  A handheld doesn't need to have the best HD resolution graphics or display.  It just needs to display appealing graphics to the eye.  The DS has proven graphics in a handheld aren't as important as the games and experience.  If the 3D can truly provide a unique and engaging experiences, which I think it can if done right.

Then if there is some loss of visuals it won't make a difference to me at all.  If we can get a nice gamecube powered DS with 3D graphics I will be happy.

[Spinnzilla]

ugh, 3d is the dumbest fad to come along in ages...  it's embarrassing to see a normally sensible company like Nintendo waste their time/money (and ours) with this crap.

what?

[Caliban]

I am surprised, and I will patiently wait for E3 for more information.

[ShyGuy]

3DS: Gunpei's Revenge, return of the Virtual Boy.

Just like the Gamecube, Nintendo has shown us that if  the market rejects their hardware, they will bring it back with a twist and force them to love it.

[BlackNMild2k1]

This does lead back to some rumored speculation that was 1 + 1 but no one ever actually bothered to add it up.

There was always the speculation that Nintendo was gonna shrink the GC hardware for the next handheld since that is the trend they have been on, of previous gen hardware level handheld.

There was also the rumor that the GC hardware was actually hardwired for doing 3D. It was programmed into the chip but never actually used.

So if you put those together, you could have speculated this happening.

[D_Average]

This must be some pretty impressive 3D. Can't wait for June 15th.

[Caterkiller]

So strange! Then why or why is Pokemon being released for this gens DSI? Why wouldn't Nintendo have that as ne of its flag ship titles? Oh I got it! There will be special accessable areas/pokemon only available on the 3DS.

But does anyone else just want another year with the DSi? Havn't even gotten one yet, now I wont.

Shoot, what does this mean for Wii?
 
Someone tell me, will the PS3 need glasses?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

PS3 needs expensive WWI Red Baron glasses.

Way too soon for any next-platform Pokemon.

Nintendo's carving a path to a real flagship portable title.  Think of what Nintendogs did for DS.  Make no mistake, it'll be RIDGE RACER!!!!!!!!

[Caterkiller]

But to keep pokemon Gen 5 on the DS? very surprised I am. Corocoro said they are gonna have details on it in their next issue. I just can't see Nintendo not pushing their new system when pokemon gen 5 will be released so close to it.

[MegaByte]

This means we could actually have a Virtual Boy Virtual Console.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

3DS is STILL a DS.  As if Pokemon would use any real features not already in the original Game Boy.  Maybe you get to blow on your pokemon using the mic.

How about people cry for that fully 3D RPG adventure they always ask for.  It can look just as good as Animal Crossing, but in 3 DIMENSORS.

[BlackNMild2k1]

But to keep pokemon Gen 5 on the DS? very surprised I am. Corocoro said they are gonna have details on it in their next issue. I just can't see Nintendo not pushing their new system when pokemon gen 5 will be released so close to it.

Let go of the Pokemon on DS thing. 3DS is a DS and Nintendo never specified which DS it was launching to, besides 3DS is fully BC so it doesn't really matter if it is releasing for DS, DSi or 3DS especially since it will probably be enhanced for 3DS anyway.

My question is does it enable 3D on all previous games? Will you be able to go back and play Metroid Prime Hunters in 3D?

I also like the idea of a VBVC to go along with all the other VC stuff that should be coming, like Virtual Handheld, which is long overdue.

edit: kinda beaten by Pro

[Jonnyboy117]

Freaky. Still, if you're going to do 3D at home, it should be without glasses, so I'm hopeful about this. And the name is actually pretty good.

[mac<censored>]

Freaky. Still, if you're going to do 3D at home, it should be without glasses, so I'm hopeful about this. And the name is actually pretty good.

Creepiest avatar ever...

*shudder*

[BlackNMild2k1]

I forgot to mention it again....

E3 is gonna be sooo good this year!

I can't wait till 3WiiD gets revealed at E3 2011

[Rize]

This is a surprisingly interesting announcement.  I was a bit worried about the move to a 3D Nintendo handheld as the DS seemed like the last bastion of 2D gaming for a while there.  However, some good 2D games have been made for the PSP and a lot of good stuff is hitting Wii Ware and XBox Live as well.  Meanwhile, Nintendo is leap frogging mere 3D graphics and including a 3D display?  All in all, I think this is a great move and it's definitely a pleasant surprise...  I may have to change my forum title to ambivalent.

By the way, there's no way this will use head tracking technology.  That is very limiting technology because it requires the player's human eyes to act as the game's "camera".  That means that the player can't actually move in the game world more than a few feet in any direction and the developer can't script any camera events (aside from cutting to black and cutting back in in a different location).  Any attempt at camera movement would break the illusion of 3D created by head tracking.

Even if you didn't understand all that, just take my word for it.  It's not head tracking.

[greybrick]

I forgot to mention it again....

E3 is gonna be sooo good this year!

I can't wait till 3WiiD gets revealed at E3 2011

Don't you mean "3DWii?" Pronounced: "three-dwii"

[Rize]

The PS3, PS4, and XBox 720 will have 3D on TVs well before Nintendo does (I've already established why head-tracking is a waste of time) since it relies on expensive non-standard HD displays to work.

Nintendo's coup is going to be achieving mass market penetration with the first 3D system well in advance of everyone else by including it all together in a portable format.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I forgot to mention it again....

E3 is gonna be sooo good this year!

I can't wait till 3WiiD gets revealed at E3 2011

Don't you mean "3DWii?" Pronounced: "three-dwii"

No, I meant 3WiiD, pronounced ThWiiDee.

This does lead back to some rumored speculation that was 1 + 1 but no one ever actually bothered to add it up.

There was always the speculation that Nintendo was gonna shrink the GC hardware for the next handheld since that is the trend they have been on, of previous gen hardware level handheld.

There was also the rumor that the GC hardware was actually hardwired for doing 3D. It was programmed into the chip but never actually used.

So if you put those together, you could have speculated this happening.

there is also another piece to this puzzle from way back when that actually makes the problem 1 + 1 + 1 = 3DS

Sharp was developing a 3D tech that uses 2 screens to produce a 3D image. This was a long time ago, but it was rumored to be in the next DS shortly after the DS was revealed.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6087254.html

RUMOR #2: The Nintendo DS will incorporate 3D technology from Sharp.

Source: UK-based online game mag Gamesindustry.biz.

The official story: A Sharp spokesperson did not confirm nor deny the story. However, given the company's history with Nintendo, the rep added that such news would not be a surprise. E-mails to Nintendo were not returned.

What we heard: Sharp actually stopped by the GameSpot offices to show off its impressive 3D technology, which displays two slightly askew images on a single screen to create the illusion of three dimensions. Apparently someone heard the words "two" and "screen," thought "DS," and started posting away. They might have also remembered the two companies' industry-shattering 1989 collaboration, the Sharp NES TV, and figured one loopy idea warrants another. Still, Nintendo and Sharp's silence could mean they're hiding something--that or they can't be bothered to respond to pesky reporters' idle gossip. It's doubtful that Nintendo could incorporate such premium technology into the DS and keep its price low enough to arouse interest in such a, er, unique system.

Bogus or not bogus?: The thing already has us seeing double. Making it 3D would make millions cockeyed. Bogus.

I guess it wasn't so bogus, but we don't know who is providing the screens or if it's the same tech.

[Rize]

By the way, it's possible the system might use head tracking (if it can reliably find your head without you having to wear anything) as a way to calibrate the picture on the screen.  In other words, it would be the same kind of 3D seen in 3D glasses, but it won't look right if you view it from an extreme angle and would only look optimal if you had your head in just the right spot (or if your head was tracked to make all spots within a reasonable range optimal).

[BlackNMild2k1]

The PS3, PS4, and XBox 720 will have 3D on TVs well before Nintendo does (I've already established why head-tracking is a waste of time) since it relies on expensive non-standard HD displays to work.

Nintendo's coup is going to be achieving mass market penetration with the first 3D system well in advance of everyone else by including it all together in a portable format.

Did you see ThePerms post? They were doing headtracking using only the cameras in the Wiimotes. No new TV needed.

Besides, 3DTV's are kinda expensive, and just because you have a 120/240hz HDTV doesn't mean it is compatible with the tech. Also each TV manufacturer's 3DTV requires only that manufacturers 3DGlasses for it to even work and unless it's built into the TV, you need a synchronizing device to go with it (assuming your TV is even compatible). Each person that wants to watch 3DHDTV needs their own set of glasses (starting at $130+ each) and the synchronizing device is around $40.

I don't really see 3D TV taking off anytime soon since there are still too many hurdles to jump through for the average consumer to enjoy it(glasses, new TV and financial commitment).

[BlackNMild2k1]

By the way, it's possible the system might use head tracking (if it can reliably find your head without you having to wear anything) as a way to calibrate the picture on the screen.  In other words, it would be the same kind of 3D seen in 3D glasses, but it won't look right if you view it from an extreme angle and would only look optimal if you had your head in just the right spot (or if your head was tracked to make all spots within a reasonable range optimal).

DSi is already doing head tracking
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30728.0

[Nile Boogie]

Oh wow, looks like Nintendo has been busy!

[Ian Sane]

This is both surprising and unsurprising at the same time.  It's unsurprising because when I read it was so Nintendo.  Of course Nintendo of all companies would bust out 3D without glasses.  It's surprising in that I didn't know that was a realistic option.  I'm actually having a hard time envisioning how this even works.

It will be hard to demonstrate this though in screenshots and videos.  I remember when the Virtual Boy came out the screenshots in the magazines just looked like Gameboy games only red.  The "thrill" of the 3D effect could only truly be promoted in a hands-on demonstration.

Though I do question what real impact this will have a gameplay.  It seems like a neat gimmick but what sorts of games can only be made in 3D?  The same types of games as before only now it's popping out in your face is the sort of superfiscial thing that Nintendo would make fun of Sony for doing.  Whether you love or hate the Wii remote, you have to admit that with a different controller there is some sort of obvious impact on how a game plays.  But this is not a lot different than a graphical update.

[ShyGuy]

My guess is Miyamoto already had an idea for a game before they implemented this technology. I have no idea what it could be though.

[Ian Sane]

  My guess is Miyamoto already had an idea for a game before they implemented this technology. I have no idea what it could be though. 

Miyamoto's "idea" for the DS was a port of Super Mario 64 with crappy controls so I'm a little cynical about whether or not a specific game idea influenced this concept.  Clearly Nintendo feels that it is very important to stand out and for their product to be unique and this does.  I think that would be the prime incentive, whether or not a specific game idea was involved.

[ShyGuy]

No, his idea was Nintendogs because you could touch screen the cute little puppy and it makes a certain part of your brain go "awwwww"

[Bboy]

I remember something from CES where someone was showing off tech for a 3D TV without glasses, but the problem with it was that you had to sit within a specific area to see the 3D, which, of course, wouldn't be a problem with the DS, because everyone would be holding it in nearly the same place. If it's not too expensive, then thumbs up to Nintendo. For some reason I think 3D used on a handheld would be used more creatively (and less just to show off) than on a console. On a console I think 3D would just become more of a pissing contest for graphics, whereas a handheld is more limited, so it's not just going to be about the graphics. Just an idea, anyway.

[GoldenPhoenix]

No, his idea was Nintendogs because you could touch screen the cute little puppy and it makes a certain part of your brain go "awwwww"

Exactly, Nintendogs was Miyamoto's idea for DS not SM64DS.

Anyways I am SOOOO excited for this. I love the virtual boy in all its red headache causing glory and I can't wait to see what can be done with true 3D visuals on a handheld. Once again Nintendo shows they are far from being a complacent company, and are trying yet another gutsy move.

[BeautifulShy]

  My guess is Miyamoto already had an idea for a game before they implemented this technology. I have no idea what it could be though. 

Miyamoto's "idea" for the DS was a port of Super Mario 64 with crappy controls so I'm a little cynical about whether or not a specific game idea influenced this concept.  Clearly Nintendo feels that it is very important to stand out and for their product to be unique and this does.  I think that would be the prime incentive, whether or not a specific game idea was involved.

Ian everybody knows that most  games released at launch are typically rushed.If I were to comment on a game at launch for the DS that best was a jumping off point for new ideas for the DS it would be XY/XX:Feel The Magic.
While I am sure you will comment on the minigames that the game had it was the idea of trying something new for the handhelds. Previously with the GBA(which I love) it was pretty rare for a game to have a new idea for a game.The DS broke way from the norm of the time and tried out new things and changed the landscape of gaming. If I was to name a Miyamoto game for the DS that really selled the concept for the DS it would be Nintendogs.

It seems that great minds think alike. GP and Shyguy beat me.

[TheBlackCat]

There are a number of technologies that can produce 3D effects without glasses.  One example is the previously mentioned multi-layered screen, but I think that can generally only produce as much depth as you have layers (unless you use complex phase-based interference .patterns, see my discussion of phased arrays for more on that)  Another option is to have thin slits in front of the lcd that block different pixels for different eyes.  So each eye will only see half the pixels.  I think it is somewhat dependent on eye distance and eye width, though (3D glasses are also dependent on eye width).  You can also do the "magic eye" stereogram thing, but that takes a lot of practice and is very tiring on your eyes, so it isn't really a general solution (although I did have a game years ago that could be played that way).  Others I have seen only work within a large 3D volume.

You can also used phased arrays, but I don't think that is feasible in the range your eyes can see so I won't bother going into more detail on that.  Another technique requires microscopic spinning light emitters, but that is not computationally feasible even if we had all the processing power currently available in the entire world.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Nintendo just kicked its competitors in the nuts, showing everyone that this year's motion controls are a fad and will never take off.

Nintendo shows everyone that 3D is the future, just like they did with Mode7 Mario Kart.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20100323D23JFN04.htm

No Glasses Necessary For 3-D Nintendo DS Debuting In FY10

TOKYO (Nikkei)--Nintendo Co. (7974) said Tuesday that it will launch a 3-D version of its DS portable game system sometime in the fiscal year ending March 2011, using technology that will not require users to wear special glasses.

The Nintendo 3DS will be the first popular game system available worldwide to have such functionality. It is expected to debut in the second half of 2010. Details are to be released mid-June at the Electronic Entertainment Expo, or E3, in Los Angeles.

Nintendo plans to give the new system a 3-D joystick and a force feedback mechanism that will let players feel the collisions of a game character, for example. It had already acquired related patents at the end of last year. The firm is also considering employing an accelerometer so that games can be played by tilting the 3DS.

While offering compatibility with games for earlier members of the DS series, the 3DS will feature significant improvements in wireless communications speed and battery life. Its screens will likely be no larger than 4 inches -- smaller than the 4.2 inches of the DSi LL, released in Japan last November.

Nintendo aims to differentiate its hand-held from others by focusing on enhancing gaming capabilities. Apple Inc.'s iPhone and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.'s PlayStation Portable are increasingly serving as multimedia devices whose repertoires include music, video and wireless communications.

(The Nikkei March 24 morning edition)

everything the PSP fans have been crying for with the game support from Nintendo and it's near 100% 3rd party handheld support team. Everybody should be happy now

[Spinnzilla]

I want some 3D pokemanz, where the flamethrowers and Aqua tales to look like they're coming at me.

A pokemon with enhanced 3D specs would be so awesome if they make it JUST like i'm imagining it. 

[Ian Sane]

The DS really became worth a damn once everyone forgot about the stupid gimmicks like the touchscreen and the microphone and just started treating it like a GBA2 where they just made coventional games.  The first year where everyone tried to be all creative and innovative were painful.  But the DS thankfully was also a logical hardware upgrade to the GBA so devs could concentrate on just making great games.  The Wii library has not been able to break out of its shovelware rut because the remote is all it has going for it.  But the DS didn't have that problem.

Nintendo never sold me on their innovative ideas for the DS.  The gimmicks are lame and when they try to force them down our throat we get embarrassing results like Zelda games with horrible controls.  There was no grand gameplay idea that influenced it.  The touchscreen was a marketting gimmick to get non-gamers on board and it WORKED.  And this I suspect is going along the same path.  A 3D display won't really have much a gameplay impact but it will wow non-gamers and get them to upgrade.  I imagine though that such a display will require much more advanced hardware than the DS has now and the conventional games that make use of the improved hardware will attract core gamers.

One thing that's interesting about this is that it actually would rely on good graphics to really impress.  Would 3D Miis impress?  Probably not.  Seeing shapes in 3D isn't a thrill.  You want to see people, creatures, environments.  You want it to be smooth and stuff like lighting has to be perfect to get the illusion right.  This seems very counter-inuitive to Nintendo's current "good enough" approach to graphics.  I'm curious as to what we'll see here and what impact it will have on the eventual Wii successor.  This is very much a presentation focused approach and that would be the anti-Wii.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I remember something from CES where someone was showing off tech for a 3D TV without glasses.

Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.i4u.com/article31466.html

or any of these?
http://i4u.asterpix.com/cy/2424421/?q=3D+Display

[King of Twitch]

Mindblowing.

3-D joystick? As opposed to a flat one?

[Ian Sane]

I want to see how this joystick thing works.  It sounds like a seperate controller for a portable and that seems like it would have a negative effect on the portability of the system.  The DS has a stylus but it fits in this little slot.  To remain truly pocket friendly the 3DS would need a way to store this joystick when not in use.

Though the first thing that pops into my head is something like the Wii nunchuk but that just seems way too big.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I thought this was pretty weird...



this just popped up from the link i posted in my last post when I hit the back button.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I want to see how this joystick thing works.  It sounds like a seperate controller for a portable and that seems like it would have a negative effect on the portability of the system.  The DS has a stylus but it fits in this little slot.  To remain truly pocket friendly the 3DS would need a way to store this joystick when not in use.

Though the first thing that pops into my head is something like the Wii nunchuk but that just seems way too big.

Actually I had a pretty good idea on how to solve that problem, I'm just hoping Nintendo didn't already solve that issue as I haven't finished submitting the patent yet.

[MegaByte]

I think the "3D joystick" is just the motion-controlled stylus patent that we've talked about before.  I don't think it's confirmed information yet.


At GDC, there was a company giving out free Nunchuk-like motion-sensitive bluetooth controllers to iPhone devs, but I would be surprised if Nintendo chose that route.

[King of Twitch]

(laughter)

[GearBoxClock]

As with any announcement, it seems that people are treating this as Nintendo RUINING PORTABLE GAMING FOR EVER

But the Virtual Boy did have some good ideas, so as long as this isn't monochrome red and black and is actually portable, I'm very interested.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Dual-Screen a gimmick, confirmed by Ian Sane.

[King of Twitch]

Dual-Screen a gimmick, confirmed by Ian Sane.

Srsly. Being creative and using the DS features is "painful, gimmicky, lame, and embarrassing"? There must be a universe-destroying paradox emanating from Canada.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Not only that, being another DS, it's just more rehash.

If Motion Plus doesn't fail and make Nintendo ditch the console race, the next machine will be third time they release the GameCube.

"3GC"?  3 GameCubes duct-taped together?  3X the unused 3D viewing ability, making 9D gaming possible?  My goodness, make them stop.

[Stogi]

The DS really became worth a damn once everyone forgot about the stupid gimmicks like the touchscreen and the microphone and just started treating it like a GBA2 where they just made coventional games.  The first year where everyone tried to be all creative and innovative were painful.  But the DS thankfully was also a logical hardware upgrade to the GBA so devs could concentrate on just making great games.  The Wii library has not been able to break out of its shovelware rut because the remote is all it has going for it.  But the DS didn't have that problem.

Nintendo never sold me on their innovative ideas for the DS.  The gimmicks are lame and when they try to force them down our throat we get embarrassing results like Zelda games with horrible controls.  There was no grand gameplay idea that influenced it.  The touchscreen was a marketting gimmick to get non-gamers on board and it WORKED.  And this I suspect is going along the same path.  A 3D display won't really have much a gameplay impact but it will wow non-gamers and get them to upgrade.  I imagine though that such a display will require much more advanced hardware than the DS has now and the conventional games that make use of the improved hardware will attract core gamers.

One thing that's interesting about this is that it actually would rely on good graphics to really impress.  Would 3D Miis impress?  Probably not.  Seeing shapes in 3D isn't a thrill.  You want to see people, creatures, environments.  You want it to be smooth and stuff like lighting has to be perfect to get the illusion right.  This seems very counter-inuitive to Nintendo's current "good enough" approach to graphics.  I'm curious as to what we'll see here and what impact it will have on the eventual Wii successor.  This is very much a presentation focused approach and that would be the anti-Wii.

This is the most condescending post I've seen you write in a long time.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Lets get away from the usual negative blah blah blah from you know who and look at some possible tech behind this.

Several different ways this can be achieved, but this is most-likely the one that uses eye-tracking and follows your movements regardless of how you have the system tilted (due to the accelerometers/gyros).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzRq7GhBLRQ

[Rize]

Did you see ThePerms post? They were doing headtracking using only the cameras in the Wiimotes. No new TV needed.

Besides, 3DTV's are kinda expensive, and just because you have a 120/240hz HDTV doesn't mean it is compatible with the tech. Also each TV manufacturer's 3DTV requires only that manufacturers 3DGlasses for it to even work and unless it's built into the TV, you need a synchronizing device to go with it (assuming your TV is even compatible). Each person that wants to watch 3DHDTV needs their own set of glasses (starting at $130+ each) and the synchronizing device is around $40.

I don't really see 3D TV taking off anytime soon since there are still too many hurdles to jump through for the average consumer to enjoy it(glasses, new TV and financial commitment).

This exemplifies my point.  Why release a special "3DS" when the DSi can already make a shoebox diorama using the camera for head tracking.  Do you see how with head tracking the person's physical head becomes the "camera" (or more accurately, the camera positions the person's head in 3D space and aligns the virtual 3D camera with the person's head to create the illusion that the person's head is the camera).  My point is that there is little point for the 3DS to revolve around this kind of technology as it is a gimmick and only works for a fixed 3D scene.  If you want to play "real" games, you need either the 3D glasses or an equivalent technology using screens that can direct different pictures to each human eye without the glasses.  Head tracking could assist with that, but special screens would be required.

[BeautifulShy]

Lets get away from the usual negative blah blah blah from you know who and look at some possible tech behind this.

Several different ways this can be achieved, but this is most-likely the one that uses eye-tracking and follows your movements regardless of how you have the system tilted (due to the accelerometers/gyros).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzRq7GhBLRQ

Oh wow Nice find BlackNMild. This kind of tech makes more sense to me now.

What if that 3D Joystick is you manipulating your character without any Dpad or a analog stick?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Did you see ThePerms post? They were doing headtracking using only the cameras in the Wiimotes. No new TV needed.

Besides, 3DTV's are kinda expensive, and just because you have a 120/240hz HDTV doesn't mean it is compatible with the tech. Also each TV manufacturer's 3DTV requires only that manufacturers 3DGlasses for it to even work and unless it's built into the TV, you need a synchronizing device to go with it (assuming your TV is even compatible). Each person that wants to watch 3DHDTV needs their own set of glasses (starting at $130+ each) and the synchronizing device is around $40.

I don't really see 3D TV taking off anytime soon since there are still too many hurdles to jump through for the average consumer to enjoy it(glasses, new TV and financial commitment).

This exemplifies my point.  Why release a special "3DS" when the DSi can already make a shoebox diorama using the camera for head tracking.  Do you see how with head tracking the person's physical head becomes the "camera" (or more accurately, the camera positions the person's head in 3D space and aligns the virtual 3D camera with the person's head to create the illusion that the person's head is the camera).  My point is that there is little point for the 3DS to revolve around this kind of technology as it is a gimmick and only works for a fixed 3D scene.  If you want to play "real" games, you need either the 3D glasses or an equivalent technology using screens that can direct different pictures to each human eye without the glasses.  Head tracking could assist with that, but special screens would be required.

Please follow the link I just posted. You seem to be a little behind on the advancements that have been made in technology. GDC just brought a lot to the table as far as 3D viewing is concerned.

Lets get away from the usual negative blah blah blah from you know who and look at some possible tech behind this.

Several different ways this can be achieved, but this is most-likely the one that uses eye-tracking and follows your movements regardless of how you have the system tilted (due to the accelerometers/gyros).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzRq7GhBLRQ

[Rize]

The DS really became worth a damn once everyone forgot about the stupid gimmicks like the touchscreen and the microphone and just started treating it like a GBA2 where they just made coventional games.  The first year where everyone tried to be all creative and innovative were painful.  But the DS thankfully was also a logical hardware upgrade to the GBA so devs could concentrate on just making great games.  The Wii library has not been able to break out of its shovelware rut because the remote is all it has going for it.  But the DS didn't have that problem.

I agree completely.  Yoshi's Touch and Go..... *shudder*

Nintendo never sold me on their innovative ideas for the DS.  The gimmicks are lame and when they try to force them down our throat we get embarrassing results like Zelda games with horrible controls.  There was no grand gameplay idea that influenced it.  The touchscreen was a marketting gimmick to get non-gamers on board and it WORKED.  And this I suspect is going along the same path.  A 3D display won't really have much a gameplay impact but it will wow non-gamers and get them to upgrade.  I imagine though that such a display will require much more advanced hardware than the DS has now and the conventional games that make use of the improved hardware will attract core gamers.

Also a good point.

One thing that's interesting about this is that it actually would rely on good graphics to really impress.  Would 3D Miis impress?  Probably not.  Seeing shapes in 3D isn't a thrill.  You want to see people, creatures, environments.  You want it to be smooth and stuff like lighting has to be perfect to get the illusion right.  This seems very counter-inuitive to Nintendo's current "good enough" approach to graphics.  I'm curious as to what we'll see here and what impact it will have on the eventual Wii successor.  This is very much a presentation focused approach and that would be the anti-Wii.

Here I disagree.  3D will be impressive no matter what the graphics look like. 

Additionally, it's not that hard to do 3D.  All you need is twice the normal CPU/GPU power (or else half the pixels).  You merely need to create two slightly separate images for each eye.  It's no more difficult or limiting than the split screen gameplay that's been with us since the N64 days.

[NWR_insanolord]

You lost me when you said Yoshi Touch & Go was bad.

[BlackNMild2k1]

It's no more difficult or limiting than the split screen gameplay that's been with us since the N64 days.

The difficult part is how to get each separate image to each eye without needing glasses and for multiple people to see the same effect from multiple angles.

the video I linked has a tech provider that allows 64 different viewing points at the same time to see the exact same 3D image. another has a camera that moves the 3D image to wherever you are so that you never lose the effect.

The seciond one is what I would peg as the route Nintendo has taken with 3DS as the simple head-tracking like on DSi only provides a 3D window view. Combine the 2 and we have some crazy visuals coming out way.

[Jonnyboy117]

This is a reasonable discussion to have in the context of a new portable, actually. Nintendo DS had several new interface features -- dual screens, touch screen, microphone, even wireless/online. The first year of DS games was indeed terrible (even longer in the US if you weren't importing), as developers, even Nintendo, took their sweet time to get beyond lame mini-game compilations and other gimmicky game designs. The same happened with 32/64-bit ports, but to a lesser extent.

Where I disagree with Ian is that developers finally got past those features and started to treat DS like GBA2. Many of the best DS games just have a more thoughtful, less eager approach to using the new interfaces in the context of both traditional and new game designs. While I have some complaints with the DS Zelda games, they are in fact excellent examples of how to integrate new interface features with familiar, deep game designs.

Regarding the 3DS, it is quite likely that many of the early games will be gimmicky crap, as developers rush to get product on the market before they fully understand the game design possibilities associated with the new features. It happened with DS and Wii, and it will happen again. It's part of the cycle at this point, as long as Nintendo keeps pushing boundaries like this. If you are really concerned about the initial crop of games, don't buy the system until it is more mature.

[GearBoxClock]

With any console, much off the opening salvo of games will be attempts to show off the cool new tech.

[Rize]

I want to see how this joystick thing works.  It sounds like a seperate controller for a portable and that seems like it would have a negative effect on the portability of the system.  The DS has a stylus but it fits in this little slot.  To remain truly pocket friendly the 3DS would need a way to store this joystick when not in use.

Though the first thing that pops into my head is something like the Wii nunchuk but that just seems way too big.

Is it possible that they just meant analog stick?  A true "3D" joystick would be able to move in the third dimension and I doubt Nintendo would do that if it was intended to be operated by a thumb.  Most people have enough trouble using ordinary analog sticks.

Please follow the link I just posted. You seem to be   a little behind on the advancements that have been made in technology.   GDC just brought a lot to the table as far as 3D viewing is concerned.

I know of three ways that you can achieve 3D imaging.  The first is to actually display the images in three dimensions (such as with old holagram games or with volumetric 3D displays).  The second is fooling the brain into thinking a single flat screen image has depth by using head tracking.  These first two methods are greatly limited in that they can only show "shoebox diorama" type scenes or "virtual models".  There is no virtual camera control because in the first case there is no virtual camera and in the second case the virtual camera mimics the users head movements to create the illusion. The third way is to directly simulate the way the human eye and brain see and interpret the physical 3D world (i.e. to project two slightly different images, one onto each eye).  That is the preferred method since it doesn't have the limitation of losing the virtual camera (and with it the ability to create games any more complicated than the original Mario Bros. or Joust).

It's no more difficult or limiting than   the split screen gameplay that's been with us since the N64   days.

The difficult part is how to get each separate image to   each eye without needing glasses and for multiple people to see the   same effect from multiple angles.

Portable gaming is meant to be viewed by one person at a time and I'm sure the 3DS illusion will only work for one person.  Nintendo will never spend the money required to have multiple viewers see the image.  Nintendo would consider that a requirement for a console version though.

I figure the 3DS will use a type of polarized screen directing different images, one to each eye.  It may use head tracking only to aid in this polarization (not to achieve pseudo-3D of the shoebox diorama type).

[Jonnyboy117]

The difficult part is how to get each separate image to each eye without needing glasses and for multiple people to see the same effect from multiple angles.

I don't know much about 3D technology, but in terms of optics and visual processing, not all 3D or depth perception has to be stereoscopic. It's true that binocular vision is key for depth perception, but there are many other elements as well. For instance, you can suggest depth with the use of lighting, shadows, geometry, perspective, focus, etc. People who lose an eye don't lose all depth perception, but their brains have to rely more on these other clues. From a tech standpoint, it seems there may be a lot of potential in these other methods that don't require sending different images to each eye. For one thing, that approach doesn't work for the people I already mentioned, those with one eye, or asymmetric vision, or any other vision problem related to the specific stereoscopic method being used (color, polarization, asynchronous framing). You can avoid many of these issues by appealing to the brain more than to the eyes.

Edit:
Here's a list of monocular clues. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception
Another possibility: audio clues. Humans are capable of echolocation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1QaCeosUmw&feature=related) but there are some forms of 3D audio sensing that even normal people can do.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The DS touch screen is far from a gimmick, it has been utilized in fantastic ways. I think certain individuals are confusing companies throwing in all the features just for the sake of throwing in features, not looking at it from a game by game perspective where certain things, like the touch screen are great, while in others it is not. The DS has one of the most diverse and deep gaming lineups of any console, some use the touch screen RIGHT, some don't, and some just don't bother with it because it isn't necessary for the game they are creating. It is the choice of features, that, IMO has made the DS such a fantastic handheld. Probably the only thing that is gimmicky is the mic.

I know it is tough to remember that the gaming world doesn't revolve around your likes/dislikes, but if you can get past that you'll see many gaming experiences on DS that prove touch screen nor the Dual Screen are gimmicks.

[Rize]

I don't know much about 3D technology, but in terms of optics and visual processing, not all 3D or depth perception has to be stereoscopic. It's true that binocular vision is key for depth perception, but there are many other elements as well. For instance, you can suggest depth with the use of lighting, shadows, geometry, perspective, focus, etc. People who lose an eye don't lose all depth perception, but their brains have to rely more on these other clues. From a tech standpoint, it seems there may be a lot of potential in these other methods that don't require sending different images to each eye. For one thing, that approach doesn't work for the people I already mentioned, those with one eye, or asymmetric vision, or any other vision problem related to the specific stereoscopic method being used (color, polarization, asynchronous framing). You can avoid many of these issues by appealing to the brain more than to the eyes.

Correct perspective alone is enough for us to recognize the three dimensions in a flat picture, TV image or traditional video game.  However, the strong illusion of physical depth that we're talking about seems to require one of two things: either stereo images or a mono image that changes according to your movement in physical space (head tracking).

[Jonnyboy117]

Probably the only thing that is gimmicky is the mic.

Hardware features aren't gimmicky in and of themselves. It all depends on implementation, which of course is tied to individual applications or games. Putting a microphone on a handheld system is a wonderful idea, and it has even been used well in a few games (Nintendogs, anything with online voice chat). Nintendo didn't do developers any favors by using a low-quality microphone and giving the system too little processing power for real voice recognition, but a few games managed to use the feature well despite those limitations.

In the same way, the touch screen isn't intrinsically gimmicky, but there were certainly lots of games (especially in the beginning) that used it in gimmicky, regrettable ways. What I'm really interested to see is whether 3D display can enable new gameplay, or at least a significantly new aesthetic experience. It use in theaters has so far been very gimmicky, but the concept has more potential with interactive experiences.

[Ian Sane]

I think the "3D joystick" is just the motion-controlled stylus patent that we've talked about before.  I don't think it's confirmed information yet.

If they included a motion controlled stylus how much would this thing cost?  The 3D concept alone sounds expensive.  I also wonder how much juice a 3D display would require.  Though Nintendo has been so consistent with battery life that I really can't imagine them going forward with this unless that had already been taken care of.
 

 While I have some complaints with the DS Zelda games, they are in fact excellent examples of how to integrate new interface features with familiar, deep game designs.

The DS Zeldas seem to be the polarizing titles regarding the touchscreen.  I see them as a good example of how a great game can be ruined by being used to promote a specific control scheme rather than using whatever control scheme makes the most sense for the game.  If you want to go way back before both the DS and the Wii I would consider Crystal Chronicles as an example.  There was such an obvious agenda to use it to sell GBA-GC connectivity and its use of that feature was just SO lame.
 
To me the correct thought process should be game ideas creating hardware features out of necessity.  Like Nintendo is making these 3D games for the N64 and they feel the d-pad ain't cutting it for moving in a full 3D world so they create the analog stick out of necessity.  Since then Nintendo seems to be following the thought process of coming up with a unique feature and then thinking "okay, so what games could we make for this?" and that's when lame gimmicky titles get made.  When you do it in that order you don't even know if you CAN make truly amazing games with the feature.  It's all theoretical.  And other companies do this too.  Look at Sony with their analog face buttons that only Hideo Kojima uses and MS with Natal.
 
When designing new hardware Nintendo should brainstorm game ideas they always wanted to do but for whatever reason, couldn't.  Then they look towards what enhancements to the hardware would allow for these ideas to become reality.  This idea should have come about because of a bunch of game ideas Nintendo has been sitting on because only now with a 3D display can those ideas become reality.  Though with the failure of the Virtual Boy, they actually might have some.

[Rize]

I also wonder how much juice a 3D display would require.  Though Nintendo has been so consistent with battery life that I really can't imagine them going forward with this unless that had already been taken care of.

A 3D display wouldn't require any significant increase in power consumption.  It might have to flip twice as many pixels around per frame, but it still only has to backlight the 3D screens once and that's where most of that power goes.  The only additional power comes from faster CPUs and I'm sure Nintendo will use the 3D feature to justify a spec that is ultimately no more powerful than the PSP.  If the camera is used for fine tuning the image via head tracking, that would take a little more energy, but again nothing extraordinary.
 

The DS Zeldas seem to be the polarizing titles regarding the touchscreen.  I see them as a good example of how a great game can be ruined by being used to promote a specific control scheme rather than using whatever control scheme makes the most sense for the game.

I'm in 100% agreement.  Every time I try to play that game I get incredibly annoyed.  On a related note, I just bought a GameCube copy of Twilight Princess (I could have resisted the normal controller... TP's Wii control isn't that annoying, but the chance to play the game mirrored was enough to win me over).

[Halbred]

I'd bet that the "3D joystick" is really just an N64-like analog stick. Nothing fancy. An alternate, horrible possibility is that it will be a virtual analog stick.

I'm also assuming that this particular DS will be held book-style to get the depth perception necessary for 3D imagery to work.

[MegaByte]

If they included a motion controlled stylus how much would this thing cost?

It shouldn't add much.  Thanks in part to Nintendo, the technology is commoditized.  The cost of replacement styli will go way up though.

Next question: will both screens support 3D?  Will they both support touch for that matter?  Multitouch?

[Rize]

I'd bet that the "3D joystick" is really just an N64-like analog stick. Nothing fancy. An alternate, horrible possibility is that it will be a virtual analog stick.

I'm also assuming that this particular DS will be held book-style to get the depth perception necessary for 3D imagery to work.

It shouldn't be necessary to hold the 3DS book style.  In fact, it's more likely that the 3D effect would be impossible to achieve in that mode as the LCD would be designed for the traditional DS layout.  To be compatible with both ways of holding the DS, the LCD would need to be able to direct the light both left and right and up and down.  That's an unnecessary expense.

Next   question: will both screens support 3D?  Will they both support touch   for that matter?  Multitouch?

Now those are good questions.  I could very much see only one screen supporting 3D (probably the top) and very likely only one screen supporting the touch screen.  While games like Zelda DS relied on direct control, the gameplay was more 2D than 3D.  The 3D games like Prime Hunters used stylus on the bottom screen with the 3D view on the top.  I think that single touch on both screens is more likely than multi-touch.  Nintendo will just pretend like multi-touch doesn't exist.

[Mop it up]

3DS is way too close to 3DO. Let's hope it doesn't end up as a similar spectacular failure...

[broodwars]

I seem to remember the Wiimote early on being described as a 3D controller due to its ability to sense motion in 3D space.  Perhaps this 3DS joystick is something similar, like a small stylus-like stick with basic motion control?  I don't know...has technology advanced that far that we can do that?

[Ian Sane]

I wonder if using a stylus on a 3D screen might prove difficult due to it being difficult to judge the depth of the image.  So maybe the top visuals-only screen is 3D and the button touchscreen the "flat".

The issue with an analog stick on a portable was typically the problem of it getting caught on the inside of your pocket.  But with the DS clamshell design that's not such a big deal.  They just need a groove in the shell opposite of the stick for it to fit in when the 3DS is closed.

This is however supposed to be backwards compatible and that means they have to have all the DS functionality available.  That means touchscreen, mic, d-pad and all the buttons.  There is limited real estate here to throw in a "joystick" of some sort.

[BlackNMild2k1]

We both got questions that I would want to see answered.

My question is does it enable 3D on all previous games? Will you be able to go back and play Metroid Prime Hunters in 3D?

Next question: will both screens support 3D?  Will they both support touch for that matter?  Multitouch?

But like Rize already guessed, I would think that the Top screen handles 3D (I hope in regular and book formation) and the bottom screen does touch (hopefully multi-touch). But it would lead to some possibly interesting things if both screens could at least handle touch and 3D.

[BlackNMild2k1]

This is however supposed to be backwards compatible and that means they have to have all the DS functionality available. There is limited real estate here to throw in a "joystick" of some sort.

I'm gonna finish submitting my idea and you will see that I think I have a pretty good idea on how to solve that issue.

[ThePerm]

heheh i gots to make a mockup before they release screens

[MegaByte]

My question is does it enable 3D on all previous games? Will you be able to go back and play Metroid Prime Hunters in 3D?

A cool idea, but given Nintendo's sandboxing history regarding backwards-compatibility, I'd guess no.

[BlackNMild2k1]

My question is does it enable 3D on all previous games? Will you be able to go back and play Metroid Prime Hunters in 3D?

A cool idea, but given Nintendo's sandboxing history regarding backwards-compatibility, I'd guess no.

If Nintendo was smart, they would allow it since it would breathe new life into a bunch of older games.

"Play all your old games in a new way!!"

The marketing practically writes itself. Include all the VC/VH games too.... They wouldn't be able to keep a 3DS on the shelf for years.

[Jonnyboy117]

I have yet to see multi-touch used in a compelling way that truly improves the experience of a game or application. It seems more like a bullet point feature than a truly useful technology. If Nintendo has ideas on how to use it better, they may include it. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to be worth the additional cost.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't want Nintendo to keep designing hardware with just a single specific use in mind, I want them to throw in a little extra horsepower than they think they need, to a feature that is relatively inexpensive because they know they can use it for something later even though they might not actually be working on right now. I'm not saying they need to go overboard like Sony did with the PS3 (which was just released too soon for the tech inside), but they should start designing with a little room for flexibility towards the future.

Google added multi-touch to their phone(Nexus1) through an update. If the tech is already possible in the screen used and all that is needed is a firmware update, then why not just include the tech?

With cameras and games that use pictures to put you and your environment into the game, multi-touch picture re-sizing could come in handy, or when quick zooming on a map or many other uses that might not have come up yet since real game developers haven't really played with the tech on an actual gaming system. I don't want Nintendo to limit their hardware just because they themselves didn't have a killer-app idea to push it right from the start.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I have yet to see multi-touch used in a compelling way that truly improves the experience of a game or application. It seems more like a bullet point feature than a truly useful technology. If Nintendo has ideas on how to use it better, they may include it. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to be worth the additional cost.

Haven't there been DS games to "fake" multi touch? I could see it being used for a music game, but beyond that not sure

[MegaByte]

Multitouch is very useful for photo and web browsing, Google Earth navigation, etc.  As for games... I haven't really seen much outside of allowing multiplayer (I also haven't played any non-free games), but there is certainly potential... things like on-screen dual analog for starters.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Multitouch is very useful for photo and web browsing, Google Earth navigation, etc.  As for games... I haven't really seen much outside of allowing multiplayer (I also haven't played any non-free games), but there is certainly potential... things like on-screen dual analog for starters.

Ughs, I can't stand analog touch screen controls.

[Ian Sane]

How do you do multitouch with a stylus?  Do you put the DS down and use a stylus in each hand like a knife and fork?  So you wear little styli on your fingers like finger picks for a guitar?  Or do you use your... fingers and smudge up the screen?  Nuts to that idea.

The touchscreen is more or less like a mouse for a portable.  How often are you using a PC and think "damn I wish I had two mice right now"?

It comes across as an idea that sounds cool but no one can really think of a useful idea for it.  The most common idea is one where people suggest you just put the buttons on the screen and then you can have whatever layout you want.  But think about how hard it would be to tell what button you're on when everything is a flat screen.

[NWR_insanolord]

I think it's definitely a good idea to include multitouch. You never know when being able to execute multi-finger gestures will come in handy. It also doesn't hurt to achieve feature parity with the iPhone, which Nintendo should be smart enough to realize is going to be the primary competitor to this thing.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Now that we know that this system will be as powerful as the GC, will PSP2 be two PS2s taped together?

[MegaByte]

How do you do multitouch with a stylus?  Do you put the DS down and use a stylus in each hand like a knife and fork?  So you wear little styli on your fingers like finger picks for a guitar?  Or do you use your... fingers and smudge up the screen?  Nuts to that idea.

The touchscreen is more or less like a mouse for a portable.  How often are you using a PC and think "damn I wish I had two mice right now"?

It comes across as an idea that sounds cool but no one can really think of a useful idea for it.  The most common idea is one where people suggest you just put the buttons on the screen and then you can have whatever layout you want.  But think about how hard it would be to tell what button you're on when everything is a flat screen.

Nobody said you had to multitouch with styli.  Modern screen coatings make it very easy to remove smudges.

Viewing a touchscreen as a mouse is exactly the kind of thinking that's held back the technology.  But actually, there have been a number of times that I've wanted multiple mice.

[BlackNMild2k1]

How do you do multitouch with a stylus?  Do you put the DS down and use a stylus in each hand like a knife and fork?  So you wear little styli on your fingers like finger picks for a guitar?  Or do you use your... fingers and smudge up the screen?  Nuts to that idea.

The touchscreen is more or less like a mouse for a portable.  How often are you using a PC and think "damn I wish I had two mice right now"?

It comes across as an idea that sounds cool but no one can really think of a useful idea for it.  The most common idea is one where people suggest you just put the buttons on the screen and then you can have whatever layout you want.  But think about how hard it would be to tell what button you're on when everything is a flat screen.

Please tell me you are joking. Ummmm, maybe you would use multi-touch with your thumbs or maybe with your thumb and pointer finger on the same hand. Who in their right minds first thought is to grab a second stylus and use it like a fork and knife? I mean it's not like an iPhone (the most popular usage of multi-touch) uses a stylus.

There could be some gameplay concepts that require you to use the stylus in one hand and use your other thumb on the screen at the same time, but to compare the concept to using a second mouse on my computer at the same time is just not well thought out.

multi-touch is more like using your hand to do with out a mouse since you don't have any buttons to click.
touch is like having a mouse for our portable, multi-touch is like also having buttons to click.

[Ian Sane]

It also doesn't hurt to achieve feature parity with the iPhone, which Nintendo should be smart enough to realize is going to be the primary competitor to this thing.

So it needs to be a phone?  iPhones are a lot more expensive then any price point I imagine Nintendo's going for.  Maybe having some elite 3DS model that has all the extra non-gaming features would be nice but I personally would want a games-only focused 3DS for a reasonable price.  I won't pay iPhone money for ANY portable console.
 

 Please tell me you are joking. Ummmm, maybe you would use multi-touch with your thumbs or maybe with your thumb and pointer finger on the same hand. Who in their right minds first thought is to grab a second stylus and use it like a fork and knife?

Well I'm thinking "how do I do this without using my oily fingers?"  The fork and knife example is pointing out the futility of that.  I don't want to smudge my screen to ****, I don't care if I can clean it off easily.  Fingers are also a lot thicker than a stylus.  There's some precision in using a stylus.
 

 Viewing a touchscreen as a mouse is exactly the kind of thinking that's held back the technology.

Do you mean touchscreen technology in general or specifically the DS touchscreen?  Because the DS touchscreen is basically a one button mouse.  You point to a locations on the screen and "click" on it.

[ThePerm]

heheh i gots to make a mockup before they release screens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWlZJ8g_I5I

3ds mockup, time spent 2 hrs

[MegaByte]

So it needs to be a phone?  iPhones are a lot more expensive then any price point I imagine Nintendo's going for.  Maybe having some elite 3DS model that has all the extra non-gaming features would be nice but I personally would want a games-only focused 3DS for a reasonable price.  I won't pay iPhone money for ANY portable console.

I would hope for feature parity minus the phone since the components are so cheap now.  iPhone just ate a huge chuck of game software sales last year.  The iPod Touch is a lot cheaper than the iPhone, and we're about to see a wave of Android devices with feature parity.  People start thinking that you have to use all of these technologies, but you don't.  Just having them available is important in order to provide transition opportunities for phone devs, and they provide more innovation potential in general.  Isolating a subset of technology between DS and Wii doesn't make sense.

Do you mean touchscreen technology in general or specifically the DS touchscreen?  Because the DS touchscreen is basically a one button mouse.  You point to a locations on the screen and "click" on it.

I mean in general.  Stylus touch and multitouch are complimentary technologies.  Right now, phones are failing the former.

[BlackNMild2k1]

It also doesn't hurt to achieve feature parity with the iPhone, which Nintendo should be smart enough to realize is going to be the primary competitor to this thing.

So it needs to be a phone?  iPhones are a lot more expensive then any price point I imagine Nintendo's going for.  Maybe having some elite 3DS model that has all the extra non-gaming features would be nice but I personally would want a games-only focused 3DS for a reasonable price.  I won't pay iPhone money for ANY portable console.

iPhone has a HUGE mark up and the components inside are not nearly as expensive as they would want you to believe. Apple has premium pricing on all their hardware, but that is no secret.
 

 Please tell me you are joking. Ummmm, maybe you would use multi-touch with your thumbs or maybe with your thumb and pointer finger on the same hand. Who in their right minds first thought is to grab a second stylus and use it like a fork and knife?

Well I'm thinking "how do I do this without using my oily fingers?"  The fork and knife example is pointing out the futility of that.  I don't want to smudge my screen to ****, I don't care if I can clean it off easily.  Fingers are also a lot thicker than a stylus.  There's some precision in using a stylus.

You should also know that the current rumors (incase you don't keep up with those) is that the 3DS is larger than a DSi but not quite as large as a DSi XL. Rumor actually has it that the screen is 4" instead of the 4.2" of the DSi XL, so there should be more space to use your thumbs on the screen since it should be similar in size to a iPhone screen.

[BlackNMild2k1]

More similar tech for those that are interested

Announced by Hitachi last year
http://k-tai.hitachi.jp/h001/

previewed by The Inquirer this month
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1597252/hitachi-3d-mobile-tips

I'm also sure Nintendo got a sweet deal from which ever manufacturer is providing these screens just for the fact that their screen will easily be the most widely used for a 3D portable(125+M DS's sold to date and over 30M sold in Japan alone) and if they also have a phone division or contract, then that would allow them to provide their screens at the best cost, with the best support and become the industry standard.

[BranDonk Kong]

So, basically I just **** my pants.

[ShyGuy]

I like Perm's mockup. Needs a camera though.

[Shaymin]

So does it make me a bad Nintendo fan if I wait for the inevitable 2nd rev, like I did with the DS and should've done with the GBA?

[BlackNMild2k1]

No it doesn't, but I know I will be there on day 1 as long as it looks as slick as the current DS model and the Wii. Otherwise I see no reason to wait for a revision that might not come for years.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I also have some specualtion as to why the megaton was dropped today instead held for E3.
Apparently a magazine called Coro Coro has a Pokemon Gen 5 reveal that was going to announce some more details about the game. It could be that the reveal would have shown the 3D capabilities of the game and Nintendo decided to steal that thunder for themselves ahead of the magazine release.

[NWR_insanolord]

Nintendo announced the original DS about this time of year instead of waiting for E3 as well.

[ThePerm]

still frames of my mockup..there is a camera, its just under the top screen




a 10 second video is coming in about 20 minutes...ah technology
edit: not as long as i thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw9aarAjdyk

lol the goal is to be so right, to force Nintendo to release pictures..it worked for the new Zelda game
also my classically naive original DS mockup back in the nitro days

http://www.tetrametrics.com/theperm/Renders/stingray.jpg

[Kairon]

So does it make me a bad Nintendo fan if I wait for the inevitable 2nd rev, like I did with the DS and should've done with the GBA?

Not at ALL. My brother and I both still own launch DS Phats exclusively, going 5+ years without giving Nintendo any more money for new form factors of hardware we already own, and we both consider ourselves pretty big Nintendo fans. In fact, I'm more likely to buy a new DS system (DSi XL) for my Mom before I upgrade for myself... though I do plan on getting a DSi sometime this year... hmmm.

[Jonnyboy117]

Perm, I like your mockup, but I think the screens will be even closer together, with that hinge camera/mic moved up to the top edge to reduce space between the screens.

[ThePerm]

i still only have a DSphat too, im not sure if i want to be an early adopter or wait till the second iteration

[BlackNMild2k1]

what are you expecting out of a 2nd iteration?

What if it looks perfect from the get-go? would you still wait and see?

[ThePerm]

that the thing, when DS came out i thought the screen was phenomenol..then DSlite came out....I can't even fathom how awesome the second iteration will be.
like imagine if i buy some dull gray 3ds and then 8 months later they come out with a spectacular ruby red 3DS

[Stogi]

LOL at Ian thinking multi-touch means using a knife and fork. Never used chopsticks before?

I hope both screens use multi-touch just to make Ian **** his pants at the thought of such a conundrum.

[Kairon]

that the thing, when DS came out i thought the screen was phenomenol..then DSlite came out....I can't even fathom how awesome the second iteration will be.
like imagine if i buy some dull gray 3ds and then 8 months later they come out with a spectacular ruby red 3DS

I'm thinking I won't hold out for a second iteration of the 3DS, I'll hold out for a color of the first iteration that's awesome. Sort of a compromise.

[ThePerm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

better video on head tracking tech

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

better video on head tracking tech

That guy got hired at MS to work on Natal tech.

but according to reports around the net, it looks like Nintendo is paired up with Sharp and are using Parallax Barrier Method for the screen which does good 3D and can be turned off to handle 2D just like a normal screen.

source: Engadget via Asahi Shimbun

edit: This is what Sharp was working on 7.25 years ago
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-978499.html

Nintendo & Sharp have had quite a lot of time to perfect this tech and get it down to a price that Nintendo is willing to work with.

[Spak-Spang]

So are we positive that the system will be as powerful as a Gamecube or is that just still rumor?

[BlackNMild2k1]

There are quite a few devs out there with dev kits who say similar to GC in power and easy to program for (check the rumor thread) if you want to believe the 2nd hand info from GDC that is.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

what what WHAT

They took the GameCube and compressed it between 2 graham crackers?

[Stratos]

Gaming S'mores all around!

I'm rather excited for this. And I'm still considering getting it at launch in spite of having a brand new DSi.

It will be interesting to see how they handle DSi Shop compatibility/transfers. It may show what they will do with the new Wii and WiiWare/VC transferring. (And they had better be something).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It just hit me.

3DS' launch will be flooded with crappy GameCube ports.

[Stratos]

Luigi's Mansion port as launch title?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Yes, ripping people off for another generation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Yes, ripping people off for another generation.

in 3D

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Scoundrel, you!

[BlackNMild2k1]

[Ian Sane]

LOL at Ian thinking multi-touch means using a knife and fork. Never used chopsticks before?

Oh God, fucking chopsticks.  I've had co-workers make fun of me for not knowing how to use them.  I'm of the idea that I already know how to eat food with a knife and fork so why should I bother to learn a new way to eat food when the only benefit it provides is that white-guys-who-wish-they-were-Asian will think I'm cool.
 
I like the mock-up, Perm.  Though it is so conventional I wonder if Nintendo's real design will be nothing like it.  It'll either be something like that or something none of us could guess.
 
And I own a DSPhat.  I only have a problem with miniscule updates like the DSi where I'm clearly missing out on features that the DS doesn't have but the system isn't a full upgrade either.  The DSLite is nicer than the old DS but it isn't like there are DSLite exclusive games or anything like that.  So I never felt I was missing out.  The GBA SP pissed me off though since the non-backlit version was clearly flawed.  They should have had a light to begin with.  I don't know how Nintendo thought having a screen no one could see was a good idea.
 
I really see a videogame system as merely a way to have access to a specific videogame format.  Variations are not that big of a deal provided they don't interfere with this.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The DSlite is so much better then the Phat it isn't even funny.

[Stogi]

LOL at Ian thinking multi-touch means using a knife and fork. Never used chopsticks before?

Oh God, fucking chopsticks.  I've had co-workers make fun of me for not knowing how to use them.  I'm of the idea that I already know how to eat food with a knife and fork so why should I bother to learn a new way to eat food when the only benefit it provides is that white-guys-who-wish-they-were-Asian will think I'm cool.

Actually, chopsticks are a much more sanitary way of eating. Have you ever eaten by hand? You never put your fingers in your mouth, right? It's the same with chopsticks. They are an extension of your fingers. You also usually throw them away (unless you have the permanent kind).

While I do prefer a knife and fork for things I need to cut up, I almost always prefer chopsticks for dishes served over rice.

[Rize]

I have yet to see multi-touch used in a compelling way that truly improves the experience of a game or application. It seems more like a bullet point feature than a truly useful technology. If Nintendo has ideas on how to use it better, they may include it. Otherwise, it doesn't seem to be worth the additional cost.

It's the kind of thing Nintendo would definitely leave out.  If you were going to use it, you have to reach both thumbs past the normal DS controls.  Additionally, it is possible to simulate basic dual touch using the DS screen.  If you touch a bunch of points, the hardware reports the average.

Nintendo announced the original DS about this time   of year instead of waiting for E3 as well.

It could be that they just like to announce new hardware a year before it's release to give it some time to percolate in peoples' minds (and time to set aside some cash).

It just hit me.

3DS' launch will be flooded   with crappy GameCube ports.

 
  3D PORTABLE METROID PRIME 
 
  I'm not convinced it will really be as powerful as a GameCube though.  I would happily buy my third copy of the game.
 

but according to reports around the net, it looks   like Nintendo is paired up with Sharp and are using Parallax Barrier Method   for the screen which does good 3D and can be turned off to handle 2D   just like a normal screen.

Yes, that is the tech I expect it to use as well.  That's what I was describing in the thread earlier, and that tech will not allow for flipping the DS on it's side except in 2D mode (the parallax barrier will only work left to right to save money).

[King of Twitch]

Portable MP, now there's an idea. Imagine making the hand gesture to change beams.. :drool:

[GoldenPhoenix]

I don't see why it is a stretch that it would be as powerful as GC, the PSP is about as powerful as the PS2 and has been out for several years now.

[ThePerm]

oh yeah, Ian i did make it really conventional, i figured as a hand held it would have to be something you could slide in and out of your pocket, when i started working on it I had more of an xbox 360 controller design, but i figured...flatter.

and chopsticks...there are some things you can do with chopsticks that you can't do with a fork and knife.

as far as power goes I believe it will be better than the PSP, but not by a super lot. The deal with making cheap and affordable handhelds is that they have to have the most power for a certain sweetspot pricepoint. The Ngage could never do as well as the gameboy advance, and the psp had a similar problem. Gamecube was released in 2001, i'm pretty sure in 2010 that sort of power is available in a handheld for a low price.

[Rize]

Having played some PSP games recently, I don't think it's really as powerful as a PS2 at all.  It might be better equipped in one or two ways (the PS2 had an unusual architecture and I think the PSP is a bit more standard), but the game's don't like quite as good as PS2 games.

The 3DS will probably be close to a GameCube, but I think the texture memory, polygon count and CPU will be watered down a bit.  They're going to want to be able to say that it is definitively stronger than the PSP if asked (though they will probably define its power in terms of the DS or GameCube), and they'll want it close enough to the Cube to make the porting process reasonably cost-effective, but they will cut hardware costs anywhere they can so as not to scare away consumers.

[Stogi]

and chopsticks...there are some things you can do with chopsticks that you can't do with a fork and knife.

[ThePerm]

also, Cube games on 4 gb carts

[Kairon]

but according to reports around the net, it looks like Nintendo is paired up with Sharp and are using Parallax Barrier Method for the screen which does good 3D and can be turned off to handle 2D just like a normal screen.

source: Engadget via Asahi Shimbun

edit: This is what Sharp was working on 7.25 years ago
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-978499.html

Nintendo & Sharp have had quite a lot of time to perfect this tech and get it down to a price that Nintendo is willing to work with.

In retrospect, this isn't so surprising. Nintendo's had a long relationship with Sharp haven't they?

The DSlite is so much better then the Phat it isn't even funny.

You take that back!

[Ian Sane]

and chopsticks...there are some things you can do with chopsticks that you can't do with a fork and knife.

No one has ever even come close to providing me with a decent example of this.  Eating isn't that difficult.  You really just need a way to get the food into your mouth.  But I know you can't cut anything with chopsticks.  The best argument anyone has given me is that you can eat certain Asian foods really fast IF you know what you're doing.  But unless I'm in an eating contest why would I care?  I've never ran into a "oh ****" moment when using a knife-fork-spoon combo but the second a t-bone steak comes out and you've got only chopsticks it's an "oh ****" moment.
 

 Cube games on 4 gb carts

Yeah, this sounds like a deterent for ports.

[BlackNMild2k1]

but according to reports around the net, it looks like Nintendo is paired up with Sharp and are using Parallax Barrier Method for the screen which does good 3D and can be turned off to handle 2D just like a normal screen.

source: Engadget via Asahi Shimbun

edit: This is what Sharp was working on 7.25 years ago
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-978499.html

Nintendo & Sharp have had quite a lot of time to perfect this tech and get it down to a price that Nintendo is willing to work with.

In retrospect, this isn't so surprising. Nintendo's had a long relationship with Sharp haven't they?

I believe that they have been supplying Nintendo with portable screens since the GBA if not earlier. Here is an article from 2004 about the screen Sharp was pushing at the trade shows back then.

[ThePerm]

you can cut with chopsticks, Ian fails at chopsticks skills

[Rize]

and chopsticks...there are some things you can do with chopsticks that you can't do with a fork and knife.

No one has ever even come close to providing me with a decent example of this.  Eating isn't that difficult.  You really just need a way to get the food into your mouth.  But I know you can't cut anything with chopsticks.  The best argument anyone has given me is that you can eat certain Asian foods really fast IF you know what you're doing.  But unless I'm in an eating contest why would I care?  I've never ran into a "oh ****" moment when using a knife-fork-spoon combo but the second a t-bone steak comes out and you've got only chopsticks it's an "oh ****" moment.
 

 Cube games on 4 gb carts

Yeah, this sounds like a deterent for ports.

They'll save a lot of space by reducing the quality of audio and textures, using newer compression algorithms than we had 5+ years ago and by having bigger cards.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm sure that 3DS carts will start at 1GB(8Gb) since the cart sizes usually always double in size from the previously largest amount.

[MegaByte]

GC audio and textures tend to be compressed pretty well.  Videos, not so much.

[Stratos]

GC audio and textures tend to be compressed pretty well.  Videos, not so much.

But I thought they fixed the video compression issues when they started using DivX? I know Two Towers had horrible worse-that-youtube video and it was so bad that Return of the King was going to be on two GC discs for the sake of having a viewable video quality for FMV until DivX turned up to save the day.

[MegaByte]

Yeah, that's why I said tended to.  Even half of the Twilight Princess disc is taken up by the intro movie, which uses something akin to MJPEG encoding.

[Ian Sane]

you can cut with chopsticks, Ian fails at chopsticks skills

Of all the things I suck at this is probably the one I am the least concerned with.  Well aside from cheeky double negative stuff like saying you suck at sucking at stuff you're good at.
 
You know we didn't get a lot of N64 ports on the DS and you would think we would since Nintendo's very first DS game was a port.  I think it was because without an analog stick the DS was so inept at N64 ports that no one bothered after Super Mario 64 DS.  The same might happen with this.  Someone (jokingly?) suggested a Luigi's Mansion port.  Luigi's Mansion absolutely requires dual analog sticks or the game would just be unplayable.  If the 3DS doesn't have dual analog sticks then we're not going to get ports of games that use it.  Console controllers have become complicated enough that duplicating the functionality on a portable is pretty hard to do.  This is going to restrict ports of old games.

[Stratos]

Yes, Ian, don't worry. I was joking about the Mansion port. Though a sequel designed for the system would be interesting. If it had one control stick then you could theoretically use the stylus as the second (like IR on Wii is used for) but it would still not be conducive for a port.

[MegaByte]

Well, when the DS Lite came out, they took away one of the better analog control schemes -- the thumb nub.

[ThePerm]

I'm sure that 3DS carts will start at 1GB(8Gb) since the cart sizes usually always double in size from the previously largest amount.

Cart size is 4gb right now though...soooo..ahh crap nevermind, Nintendo needs to stop using Bits and go with bytes, **** is so annoying, confusing, and backwards. Here I was thinking that ds cart size was already 4 times gamecube game size, misleading!

[GearBoxClock]

Well, when the DS Lite came out, they took away one of the better analog control schemes -- the thumb nub.

I didn't like the thumb nub. It was awkward and not very functional.


I'm fine with a d-pad

[Stratos]

The Phat had a thumb nub? I thought the PSP only had that? Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?

[ThePerm]

it was a thumb numb for the touch screen, not like a little joystick, i forgot all about that..i think i lost mine

[MegaByte]

It took a while to get used to, but it was the superior control scheme for some 3D games.

[GearBoxClock]

The thumb stylus was cool

[Stogi]

you can cut with chopsticks, Ian fails at chopsticks skills

Of all the things I suck at this is probably the one I am the least concerned with.

Not a big sushi fan, huh?

[Crimm]

It took a while to get used to, but it was the superior control scheme for some 3D games.

I use mine a lot.  The stylus on DS Phat is so thin that it's kind of hard to hold for a while.

[ShyGuy]

Hey Crimm, will you appreciate your new DS XL less now that something even cooler is coming out soon?

[yoshi1001]

I think it'll have four cameras (two in each direction) so you can take stereoscopic pictures. I don't know how you guys are going to make your E3 coverage do it justice, though.

Metroid Prime 3D would be awesome. Maybe a Sunshine/Pared-down Galaxy port as well.

[GearBoxClock]

I'd love another Sunshine

[Crimm]

Hey Crimm, will you appreciate your new DS XL less now that something even cooler is coming out soon?

I knew it was coming before it was announced, so yes.  But only because I'm a pessimist.

[MegaByte]

I don't know how you guys are going to make your E3 coverage do it justice, though.

Who wants to pitch in on this purchase? http://www.japangadgetshop.com/products/Fujifilm-FinePix-REAL-3D-W1.html

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't know how you guys are going to make your E3 coverage do it justice, though.

Who wants to pitch in on this purchase? http://www.japangadgetshop.com/products/Fujifilm-FinePix-REAL-3D-W1.html

What if the 3DS atleast had 2 of those(@ 2.1mp) on the outside if not 2 on the inside too.

that would be one of the biggest surprises of the show and I doubt PSP2 or iPhone would be able to copy it.

Imagine 3D video pictochat(roulette*) and the interesting things that would be going on there.

*Nintendo would never allow that, but it would be such a perv bullet point that the 3DS would find instant success in even the darkest circles of society.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I really like this mock-up:

[ThePerm]

as long as it doesn't break easily

[Stogi]

Where's the analog stick?

[ThePerm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28s6TOMwwP0

another mockup, this time with clearer 3d

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28s6TOMwwP0

another mockup, this time with clearer 3d

Your screens are still too far apart.

[Kytim89]

I can not help but consider the 3DS as the virtual boy 2. I am very interested in how Nintendo is going to implement 3D into a handheld gaming system. I hope Nintendo also includes a virtual handheld service, which should include virtual boy games, and a movie player. Which brings me to another point, what kind of effect would the 3DS have on movies if they were to be played on the device?
 
Next, how big will the device be? I am hoping for it to be about the same dimensions as the DSi. Keep the cameras and SD card slot in the same place, and lets have the fancy new stylus be able to clip onto the wrist strap that Nintendo might include so that you do not lose your motion sensing stylus.
 
 

[ThePerm]

http://regmedia.co.uk/2004/05/12/nintendo_ds_1.jpg

better?

[Kairon]

http://regmedia.co.uk/2004/05/12/nintendo_ds_1.jpg

better?

It makes me happy. T_T

[ShyGuy]

Hey, Kairon is back.

[Ian Sane]

I can not help but consider the 3DS as the virtual boy 2.

Yesterday my brother and I were talking and the conversation eventually moved to Avatar and we talked about these new 3D TVs that require the glasses.  I took that opportunity to say "hey do you know what Nintendo just announced?"  He sarcastically said "What?  Virtual Boy 2?"  So I said "yeah".  His face was priceless.
 
Then I told him the actual details (ie: it sounds like it will be Virtual Boy done right) and he was in shock of how this could even work.  I wish I could give him more details.  Wait until E3 I guess, huh?

[KDR_11k]

It just hit me.

3DS' launch will be flooded with crappy GameCube ports.

As long as Lost Kingdom and Gotcha Force get another chance at glory that's fine with me.

[Kairon]

Hey, Kairon is back.

]

It sucks. I think I can come back, then work lands a critical hit on me, or something else, then I submerge, then now I'm able to come up for air again, but the future... *scared*

[IceCold]

Huh. Not sure what to make of this. Sounds exciting!

[EasyCure]

So, basically I just **** my pants.

LOL at Ian thinking multi-touch means using a knife and fork. Never used chopsticks before?

I hope both screens use multi-touch just to make Ian **** his pants at the thought of such a conundrum.

8 pages in one sitting and these were my two favorite posts.

[Stratos]

There was also the rumor that the GC hardware was actually hardwired for doing 3D. It was programmed into the chip but never actually used.

You know, I wonder how gaming, Nintendo and the GC would have turned out if it had been more successful. All of these things could have come out for it it seems. Motion started there, 3D was in mind with it's creation, there's a lot that could have been done with it.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Which is why they repackaged it and re-sold it to us. They weren't done yet, but needed a fresh start.

[Stratos]

Good point. The 3DS will be their 3rd time selling us GC tech. Not that I'm complaining.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The GameCube is having the last laugh, becoming the most-sold piece of console hardware guts of all time.

[KDR_11k]

Good point. The 3DS will be their 3rd time selling us GC tech. Not that I'm complaining.

Just because the instruction set is from the GC doesn't mean it's GC tech. It'll be significantly more power efficient, for one.