Topic: Brawl Delayed to February in N. America

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
I did, in fact, read your post.  You said you thought the clones were put in at the last minute.  Adding in totally new characters could not have been done at the last minute - it would have taken more time.  Could the game have been delayed and more (new) characters added into it?  I suppose (assuming that there wasn't technical reasons that the game couldn't contain more full-fledged characters) the game could have been delayed... and more characters could have been added.  Heck, if they delayed it until the end of the GameCube's life, they could have added in Wario-Ware Wario, Bowser Jr., etc., etc... But wait - if they had delayed it past the GameCube's life, they could have just released Melee on the Wii and included the online modes in Melee.  Wait!  Let's just delay Melee until the next Nintendo system comes out - then Melee could be in high def!

Heck, if Nintendo had delayed the original Legend of Zelda until 2020... I wonder how awesome it could have been.

You are not helping this out...

I mentioned the clone characters being last minute additions because that's what THE TEAM said. They wanted to add more characters to the roster but didn't have the time to create new ones, so they went with clone characters instead.

As for the delaying, I'm not saying they should delay a game forever. It eventually needs to be released, but if a game needs more polish and options they should go ahead and do so. Hell, they just did it with Brawl...  

[Smash_Brother]

Take my advice, people, this train of discussion leads absolutely nowhere.

I've a great deal of experience in this area.

Melee was rushed. Brawl won't be. That's ALL that matters.

[Infernal Monkey]

They're including the Falcon and Leon story mode stage idea I sent them.

[UncleBob]

Perhaps we have different ideas of "rushed"... To me, a game is rushed when it's pushed out to meet a time frame when the game isn't ready - i.e.: isn't good.

For example, both OoT and Wind Waker where "rushed" and therefore missing temples that were planned to be in the games.  Yet I don't think anyone would call OoT rushed...  even with all the bugs in that game.

[Pale]

I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here.  I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Pale
I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here.  I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

I guess that makes two of us. Kind of like people saying that their opinion is based off what Smash_Bros was and are in flat out denial about Melee being rushed to store shelves, when all the warning flags are there. That is pure unadulterated fanboism, the same stuff that comes from people that support Halo, they stick their heads in the sand or try to make up excuses for something being broken or at least unfinished, at least Mashiro admitted that aspects were rushed. I guess it bothers me because I've never had a problem with admitting something was rushed in a game or unfinished, even if I loved the game.

[UncleBob]

Or people pretending that they know what goes on behind closed doors...

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones.

Clones or not doesn't stop Melee from being one of the best Gamecube titles. I'd much rather have Melee with the clones, especially Falco and Ganondorf, then without. In fact, I will be quite sad knowing that there will be no one to "carry the torch" and have that same sense of power in Falcon form that Ganondorf had.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

Nothing is perfect. You can find flaw in everything.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Arbok


Nothing is perfect. You can find flaw in everything.

A clone is far from being a "flaw" it is a quick way to knock off a few more characters without taking the time to flesh them out. Heck better yet, if they don't have the time to finish these character, they could spend it perfecting something else. I hate it when games go part way and things appear to be a quick fix. Whether it be Wind Wakers treasure hunt, or Sunshine's blue coin collecting, but hey guess what? I can actually admit they are quick fixes and the games were both rushed, even though they are two of my favorite GC games.

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here.  I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

Hey, don't be playing the victim now. I was accused of acting like S_B and claiming Melee sucks because Brawl looks to outdo it. Also, me and Golden just mentioned that Melee was rushed. The ones that came in screaming "O NOZ U AR TROLLZ MELEE ROX YOUR SOX STFU HATER!" were you guys.

I already said that this is a matter of preference, but it bugs me when people are trying to shove down an opinion down my throat simply because its what everyone thinks. THAT'S what been bugging me about the whole issue.

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
A clone is far from being a "flaw" it is a quick way to knock off a few more characters without taking the time to flesh them out or if they don't have the time, they could spend it perfecting something else.

But it added to the enjoyment, did they not?

[UncleBob]

It's funny - as much as people rag on the clones, one of those clones tends to be a fan favorite.

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
It's funny - as much as people rag on the clones, one of those clones tends to be a fan favorite.

One of them is my absolute favorite - Ganondorf.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Arbok

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
A clone is far from being a "flaw" it is a quick way to knock off a few more characters without taking the time to flesh them out or if they don't have the time, they could spend it perfecting something else.

But it added to the enjoyment, did they not?

If you consider a character skin swap over another's move set fun. A genre that comes to mind that does this a lot and it bothers me just as much are the pro wrestling games.

[UncleBob]

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Originally posted by: pap64
I already said that this is a matter of preference, but it bugs me when people are trying to shove down an opinion down my throat simply because its what everyone thinks. THAT'S what been bugging me about the whole issue.

You mean like trying to shove the idea that Melee was "rushed" down everyone's throats?

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
If you consider a character skin swap over another's move set fun. A genre that comes to mind that does this a lot and it bothers me just as much are the pro wrestling games.

So, do you feel cheated when games allow you to push a button to select the same character with a different color costume?  I mean, instead of spending time picking out different colored costumes, they could have spent the time perfecting other aspects of the game, right?  

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
If you consider a character skin swap over another's move set fun. A genre that comes to mind that does this a lot and it bothers me just as much are the pro wrestling games.

If you are implying that's all the clones are, you need to play Melee again. Unless you are overstating to make a point.

All of the clones had unique qualities to them, some more then others. Ones like Dr. Mario were quite disappointing, while others, like Falco with his amazing jumping abilities and his downward spiral smash, were very fun additions.

[Mashiro]

GP takes the clones issue to a whole new level and while I (begrudgingly) respect her view on it I see it this way:

From a development stand point, adding in character skins with similar animations and fighting styles as other characters more than likely did not take up a lot of time. You don't have to worry about much in terms of balancing and already have a move template to work from. They weren't exact copies but I'm sure it didn't take all too long to do.

Hence, the clones did not take away from the overall game. The lack of extended development time may have (as is evident with Brawl with just how much they can do) but again, it doesn't make it any less of a good game. Clones don't warrant hanging the game nor do they harm the game, it just shows that they didn't have enough time to implement original move sets for them.

The game (Melee) was still phenomenally fun, it was and still is a great fighting game and is a definite near perfect title for the Gamecube. While we can nit pick at some of the disappointments of the game it still remains a classic and a real gem for Nintendo. It succeeds in it's main area, an it's an insanely fun multiplayer game with lots of unlockable content for fans young and new alike and a 1 player story mode which brings some nostalgia into play.

But as I said, Brawl is bringing everything to the next level and it looks to be one of those games that won't be topped for a very long time. It'll be Smash Brothers perfected and we be a very worthy successor to Melee.  

[Smash_Brother]

I always wondered why they didn't take attacks from different characters and use those to make a clone.

For example, for Ganondorf, take Samus' charge shot, Peach's ability to float and Marth's sword and you'd have a Ganondorf which is pretty close to OoT's, plus his sword.

It would take a great deal of fine tuning, of course, but I think it could have worked and made for a better 'dorf than outright duping Falcon.

And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game, it just had a very different feel from the original SSB which made it a DIFFERENT game. I don't know if Brawl will restore that feel, but it might just wind up being the best of both worlds (hopefully).  

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game, it just had a very different feel from the original SSB which made it a DIFFERENT game. I don't know if Brawl will restore that feel, but it might just wind up being the best of both world (hopefully).

Most likely, although I love my bulky Captain Falcon... I truly do hope there is someone in Brawl that plays like that, as the difference between him and Falcon, even if their B moves were the same (which you hardly used anyway, if you knew what you were doing, besides when recovering), was night and day in terms of how you played them. I'd love for someone like Deathborn or Black Shadow to be added and play like that, except with new B, or special, moves added in.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother


And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game

Don't worry, if you criticize games like PH and SSB: M you automatically hate them.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

So, do you feel cheated when games allow you to push a button to select the same character with a different color costume?  I mean, instead of spending time picking out different colored costumes, they could have spent the time perfecting other aspects of the game, right?

That is a good question, and I'm going to have say yes if the game had other flaws that could have been fixed in the meantime. Now perhaps not a different COLOR costume because that cannot be hard to implement at all, but maybe a complete model change wearing different clothing. While the clones in Brawl were a quick way to shove in a few more characters, their models had to have taken precious time away from refining the game or maybe even adding some new items.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Arbok
Most likely, although I love my bulky Captain Falcon... I truly do hope there is someone in Brawl that plays like that, as the difference between him and Falcon, even if their B moves were the same (which you hardly used anyway, if you knew what you were doing, besides when recovering), was night and day in terms of how you played them. I'd love for someone like Deathborn or Black Shadow to be added and play like that, except with new B, or special, moves added in.

This is why I want them to take as LONG as they need to to get Brawl to feel right.

I'm hoping that, even if the characters feel different, they wind up feeling right in the end.

I'm still hoping poor ol' Bowser gets a makeover and it makes him less of a punching bag and more of a threat.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

Quote
Originally posted by: Arbok
Most likely, although I love my bulky Captain Falcon... I truly do hope there is someone in Brawl that plays like that, as the difference between him and Falcon, even if their B moves were the same (which you hardly used anyway, if you knew what you were doing, besides when recovering), was night and day in terms of how you played them. I'd love for someone like Deathborn or Black Shadow to be added and play like that, except with new B, or special, moves added in.

This is why I want them to take as LONG as they need to to get Brawl to feel right.

I'm hoping that, even if the characters feel different, they wind up feeling right in the end.

I'm still hoping poor ol' Bowser gets a makeover and it makes him less of a punching bag and more of a threat.

Bowser better be cool, it is sad seeing my favorite character get beat up in Melee all the time. Even I played as Donkey Kong most of the time, and in a way I feel I betrayed him!

[NWR_pap64]

Bowser HAS a killer final smash you know...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

ahahaha nintendo hates nintendo fans