Topic: What's MS' next move with the XBox 360?

[animecyberrat]

Well I'll tell you what, I *WANTED* a 360, just for Crackdown, but seeing how unreliable they turned out to be, I held off, now until they can go I don't know six months without any reports of them breaking down, then I will consider getting one again. What they need to do is FIX the damn bugs. I know too many people that are on their 2nd and 3rd system.

[Luigi Dude]

Well I'll tell you what, I *WANTED* a 360, just for Crackdown, but seeing how unreliable they turned out to be, I held off, now until they can go I don't know six months without any reports of them breaking down, then I will consider getting one again. What they need to do is FIX the damn bugs. I know too many people that are on their 2nd and 3rd system.

Yeah, the red rings of death are also what hurt's Microsofts chances of ever being number one.  This isn't just some problem that only us on the message boards no about, it's everywhere.  Even average people who hardly know anything about what's going on in the industry know about it, since they know people this has happened too.

This has really destroyed Microsofts image and quite frankly, I don't see how they'll recover.  When they launch their next system how are people going to be able to trust Microsoft this time?

[animecyberrat]

they forget, look at PS2.

[GoldenPhoenix]

they forget, look at PS2.

Good point, PS2 was a mess as well when it came to faulty systems.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The internet is more vocal about hardware failures this time around.

[oohhboy]

While I do remember the PS1 and PS2 had issues, they were never this wide spread. Also people didn't have to deal with Indian call centers back then. For the PS1, it was bad lasers. PS2 it is still bad lasers.

The 360 has bad lasers, cheap drives which will put rings in your disks if you looked at it wrong. Then there is RROD. While the rise of the internet has made failures more apparent, considering even mainstream press picked up on it says something. There is also no doubt from the retail channels it is a massive issue. Sony never had to write down a billion dollars to fix their hardware issues.

Beyond that MS was never a trusted name and MS had done a lot to try to distance MS and XBOX. These issues just confirm those feelings. Most people use Windows because they have to. A lot of the resentment cause by Windows bleeds over on to other products they make.

They have been their own worse enemy as it was with Sony. While Sony had Ken screaming you needed a second job to get a PS3, MS was more subtle with Horse Armor and Crackdown "Expansions".

[Chozo Ghost]

From what I understand, Microsoft hardware was generally considered highly reliable and of great quality. They made (and still make) great input devices like mice and keyboards and joysticks. But for some reason, the Xbox line doesn't seem to be of similar quality. I don't know why that is...

Microsoft software on the other hand is notoriously prone to problems. Windows is more prone to viruses and crashes than other operating systems like Linux or Mac, and the same is also true with their other software products like Internet Explorer, Outlook, and Office.  Their PC games aren't too bad, though. Zoo Tycoon is pretty cool, and they do make good flight simulators and so forth. But their productivity software and operating systems leave much to be desired.

I'm not sure what the deal with the Xbox line is, but I think it may have something to do with the xbox being more or less a console cobbled together out of PC components. The original Xbox was like that anyway. It used regular pc components and you could take out its hard drive and swap it with any other hard drive. I believe the DVD drive was the same way. So the xbox is basically just a collection of PC components shoved into a console case. But even this doesn't really explain its high failure rate, because PCs can be pretty reliable for gaming...

So my personal theory is it may have something to do with the software MS runs on it. Maybe the 360's operating system is very demanding of the hardware and causing it to overheat? I don't really know, but  then again Microsoft doesn't have experience making PCs. They certainly aren't like Dell or HP in that respect.

[Shift Key]

From what I understand, Microsoft hardware was generally considered highly reliable and of great quality. They made (and still make) great input devices like mice and keyboards and joysticks. But for some reason, the Xbox line doesn't seem to be of similar quality. I don't know why that is...

I haven't had a good experience with a Microsoft input device that I can remember.
A wireless mouse which had a short battery life. A wired mice which randomly moves to the top-right or top-left of screen while moving. The build quality of the ones I have bought seem fine, but not something I'd want to test out.

These days, I recommend Logitech in terms of input devices. Sure, it costs a bit more, but you get something that lasts - and many models come with a charger cradle so the mouse never needs its batteries replaced. I bought a Logitech wireless mouse/keyboard combo over five years ago now and its still going strong. Aside from not having the multimedia capabilities and extra keys in Linux (its available, but I haven't actually tried) its done everything I've asked of it.

Microsoft software on the other hand is notoriously prone to problems. Windows is more prone to viruses and crashes than other operating systems like Linux or Mac, and the same is also true with their other software products like Internet Explorer, Outlook, and Office.

Yawn. Here's an update on your early-2000's information.

~ I've been using Vista for about 8 months. It started out rocky but once I cleaned out the crapware that came with the laptop and installed SP1, its been much more stable and consistent. Not sure how it'd go on existing hardware, but for newer systems there are definitely benefits (just don't use the cheapo Intel graphics chipsets). Haven't had a blue-screen since I installed SP1 - now I'm just tweaking the hell out of it.

~ IE 7 shits all over IE 6 (this is coming from someone who still has to develop for IE 6 users). Sure, its still playing catchup to the likes of Firefox (BTW, get Firefox 3, its still beta but for Windows XP and Vista its been stable for me for months) and *insert your browser here* but there's no use holding on to IE6 as its like having a gaping hole and wondering why trucks are driving through your system. I'm working to move our remaining clients to IE7, but of course inertia is a bitch.

~ Not sure why you bring up Office 2007, but if we're talking security then 2007 has extended Office XP's macro security (opening a unknown file could run a script and access parts of your system). If you want to use a macro in a file, you need to save the file as a different file extension (for Word documents, its .DOCM instead of .DOCX for a macro-less file). 2007 also brings XML file formats instead of the old binary format - and has better development tools for producing documents under .NET (and can be done for non Microsoft platforms as well). Jokes about OOXML and ISO/ECMA stuff aside (I'm about to start looking over the specification in detail), I'm glad to see the days of binary formats in Office ending.

~ Outlook is something I left alone for a long time due to Thunderbird being "the new thing" but now that I have Officee 2007 I started using it again, and wondered how I lived without things like a calendar and syncing RSS feeds in my inbox. Sure, you can use things like Google Calendar and Google Reader, but I love having all this in one place (and accessible offline). I was aware of the security issues with Outlook Express (migrated my parents to Thunderbird) but that's been ditched in Vista for a stripped back mail client called Windows Mail (don't think its the same code base).

So my personal theory is it may have something to do with the software MS runs on it. Maybe the 360's operating system is very demanding of the hardware and causing it to overheat? I don't really know, but  then again Microsoft doesn't have experience making PCs.

I'm fairly certain the 360's major issue (the RRODs) is excessive heat warping components (solder shrinks and expands more than anticipated, connections break on the PCBs (graphics card in particular?), hardware shats itself because of said connections) which wasn't found in QA of the initial models. I'm not going to hunt down the "investigations" but I think it was a "Microsoft mole" who confirmed this.

EDIT: Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems

They certainly aren't like Dell or HP in that respect.

Hilarious. I refuse to touch Dell laptops and HP printers (the home ones at least) because of their reputation to break spontaneously (that's if they work out of the box) and require to be sent back for repairs.

EDIT: Getting products confused

[BranDonk Kong]

It's not excessive heat (as far as most PCs and game consoles are concerned), it's just too much heat for the lead-free solder used to hold the BGA chips in place. The solder joints crack (they don't melt, or flow - you didn't say they did, but this is just for clarification) which in turn creates the hardware failure. It's extremely rare for a 360 to actually overheat (which is 2 red lights - error code 0011, 0012, or 0013, not 3 red lights).

[animecyberrat]

One of my friends runs a repair shop and he says what causes the RROD, is something about the processor sits too close to something, I can't remember what he said, and they thing basically gets way too hot because the fan isn't circulating air to the processor.

He says to fix consoles all he does is uses a little wire looking thingy he made out of paper clips to separate the processor from the whatever it is that it's touching it shouldn't be touching. I don't remember the technical terms but his 360 is now working and it has gotten the RROD twice and this is the second time he fixed it, first time was a temp fix, he juts wrapped it up on a wet towel and it worked for like a week.

Anyways he has been fixing them for a couple months now and just yesterday explained to me what he discovered but I didn't have time to talk (phone bill was $200 higher than expected) but he said he is going to write up an article for my new website that will describe the issue in details and explain how to fix it, with pictures. Hopefully his method proves right because if he figured out how to make them work without breaking, I might be getting one from him. He just moved to Boise a few months ago so I don't see him as much as I used to so I don't get updates very often, but I'll share whatever info he gives me.

[BranDonk Kong]

There are thousands of people that fix this problem - and if paperclips are involved, then it's not a good fix. The processor isn't touching anything that it shouldn't be, the motherboard warps underneath the GPU, and the (cheap) lead-free solder breaks. Some people have "fixed" this by sticking pieces of tooth picks (or paper clips I suppose) under the bolts that go in the X-Clamps (which hold the heatsinks in place), which causes the heatsink in turn to put more downward force on teh GPU, bridging the connection. It's a pretty crappy fix, though it is effective, at least sometimes, and almost always it's short term. While you can say if the system ran cooler these problems would not happen - and that's technically true, but it's not because of the system overheating, it's because the crappy design and the cheap lead-free solder can't handle the heat that actually is produced.

Here are some pictures of the cooling mods I've done to my 360, just to show that I'm not talking out of my ass. I've also done the X-Clamps replacement, replaced the thermal paste with Arctic Silver 5, and reflowed my GPU's cold solder joints with a 1000 degree heat gun.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=636737

[animecyberrat]

Like I said, all I had to go by was what he told me and he didn't explain it very well.

[Ceric]

There are thousands of people that fix this problem - and if paperclips are involved, then it's not a good fix. The processor isn't touching anything that it shouldn't be, the motherboard warps underneath the GPU, and the (cheap) lead-free solder breaks. Some people have "fixed" this by sticking pieces of tooth picks (or paper clips I suppose) under the bolts that go in the X-Clamps (which hold the heatsinks in place), which causes the heatsink in turn to put more downward force on teh GPU, bridging the connection. It's a pretty crappy fix, though it is effective, at least sometimes, and almost always it's short term. While you can say if the system ran cooler these problems would not happen - and that's technically true, but it's not because of the system overheating, it's because the crappy design and the cheap lead-free solder can't handle the heat that actually is produced.

Here are some pictures of the cooling mods I've done to my 360, just to show that I'm not talking out of my ass. I've also done the X-Clamps replacement, replaced the thermal paste with Arctic Silver 5, and reflowed my GPU's cold solder joints with a 1000 degree heat gun.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=636737

Just out of curiosity.  Besides noise concerns and maybe interference..  Why not just swiss cheese,Drill lots of little wholes, the side of the 360 and use an external fan, like a box fan?

[oohhboy]

You mean something like the intercoolers? I have a friend who used one and it didn't save his XBOX.

If memory serves me right, the associated parts aren't touching, but they are close enough to cook each other, along with the other material problems perviously stated. Even if you did punch a lot of holes into it, unless you made sure there was a substantial increase in air flow in that area, it would still cook unless you pushed stupid volumes through.

MS, being their typical selves, for the last two years trying to out tech the problem by shrinking the chips. The smaller chips would make things cheaper and cooler, but it didn't address the fact that the design of the thing was asinine. I am not sure which one is cheaper, repairing all those XBOXs or reengineering motherboard to eliminate the problem.

Gathering from MS's actions, repairing them, at least on paper, was the cheaper option. Quite clearly, they didn't take into account the human cost in pissed off customers and the bad press they generate. RROD could have very cost them this gen, if not heavily contributed to it in the western world.

[animecyberrat]

One of my friends did just that, he put one of those USB powered fans onto the back of his console and it actually overheated FASTER.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

LOL

[BranDonk Kong]

The Intercooler actually does cool the system faster, if you put it on correctly, but the old models with the plastic plugs would melt and ruin your 360, and it would not be covered by M$ since it's obvious what caused the problem.

[Ceric]

Actually my idea was.

1. Drill holes into largest surface area side of the 360
1a.  Maybe even drill the other side to allow for air to flow fully through.
2. Find fan that would completely cover said side
3. Plug in fan attach or set next to 360
4. Pray that there isn't to much electromagnetic interference.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

...when this is the reality of the product, why do people even bother...

[Caliban]

Because we're all going to die anyway, so why even bother.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

You're right.  Gotta invest in EA now.

[Kairon]

I'm amazed at how many people just POUR MORE MONEY into the MS machine because the products are bad. Is this a successful business model or something? Make a bad product, make twice as much sales?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

more broken = more shipped

[NWR_insanolord]

It all makes sense now, why the PS1, PS2, and now the 360 get the most third-party support: third party developers give the most support to the console that's most poorly built.

[animecyberrat]

 

It all makes sense now, why the PS1, PS2, and now the 360 get the most third-party support: third party developers give the most support to the console that's most poorly built.

Makes sense, Nintendo first dominated with the faulty NES.