5. Crushing Those Tiny Bones and Leaving Them For Consumption

Iwata - I think one of the reasons that it’s so easy for people to project themselves into the adventures in “Dragon Quest” is because there’s such a thing as “Dragon Quest”-like in terms of the game’s sense of world. Mashima-san, what’s your take on that?

Mashima - The episodes drawn by the scenario of “Dragon Quest” are quite grandeur overall, but rather than a pipe dream in some land, the content of each single episode is serious, and at a personal scale that you could almost envision happening to people around you.

I wonder if perhaps that’s what we mean when we say “Dragon Quest”-like. What sticks out in my mind is “the woman who poisoned the dog out of jealousy,” for instance… Naturally, it’s not rendered realistically, but it can give players a powerful image in their heads.

Iwata - I bet that’s because Horii-san truly believes that players will get it even if every single thing isn’t rendered on screen.

Mashima - Yes. Otherwise, speaking of the overall setting, “Dragon Quest” achieves this believable balance where, even if you go to the underworld for instance, you can open drawers that you find, and at the same time open chests as well. Whether it’s the underworld or whatever, they preserve the actions that are possible at that scale, and all the while throughout the series - continue to draw the ultimate battle between good and evil.

Iwata - As obvious as it seems, it’s actually something that’s really difficult to copy.

Mashima - Right. And within all of that, I think the fact that, regardless of what it is, if you’re thinking, “I wonder what’s going on with that?” about something - there’s been a proper answer readied for it, and I think that’s what is so “Dragon Quest”-like about its systems. For instance, if there’s a door, you’ll definitely be able to enter it, and if there’s a pot you’ll be able to break it.

Iwata - In other words, there are no lies made for the convenience of the developers.

Mashima - I don’t know how Horii-san feels about it, there is this unspoken rule that we don’t lie to the players like that.

Iwata - From my point of view, I have a feeling that there are portions where Horii-san actively keeps that in mind and portions where it’s more by instinct, and those two areas adjoin. The reason that you can’t put into words how he structures game development is also because of how these two aspects adjoin with each other. That’s why, even after getting to ask about his games many times now, I think, “I see!” every time, but even now I still don’t fully understand it.

Mashima - “Adjoining” is a really appropriate way to put it. Taking one example - that the underworld castle is right next to the first town and should feel as such - there’s absolutely nothing about it that is kind of fudged because it’s inconvenient in other ways.

Iwata - The fact that the hero doesn’t speak out of turn, or the way the game’s basics are formed so that anyone can play - it all adjoins with reality… Ah, I’m sorry - I started to get carried away.

Everyone - (laughs)

Iwata - Earlier we discussed how the concept for the remake was, “Let’s make an easy to understand ‘VII’ where people don’t get lost, or feel uneasy,” but I’m sure that in some ways you start to worry that the game has gotten too easy. How do you reconcile that?

Horii - Well, yes, the tablets are easier to find now, but I’m pretty sure that everything else still has a lot of meat to it. Plus, if you make it too easy it can get boring.

Iwata - Regardless of just how convenient it is, if you’re just doing what you’re led to, you don’t feel that satisfaction from accomplishing it on your own. Did you tune that based on Horii-san’s feelings?

Fujimoto - Yes. For instance, at one point during development we wanted to make things as nice and easy for the players as possible, and so we displayed a map on the bottom screen, but back then you could even see where the chests were. Based on Horii-san’s instruction we ended up not displaying them in the end. On the other hand, we do show the tablets.

Iwata - The idea is that “you can’t show all of the answers,” then. I wonder if that set off Horii-san’s sensor that people would say, “Now I feel like I’m just doing what I’m told?”

Horii - Yes, the decision to take out display of the treasure chests was because then it just becomes work, not play. But if your thought process is instead, “Maybe there’s something over there,” and then you find it - it doesn’t feel like work.

Iwata - Even though it’s just a matter of whether you’re displaying it or not, that difference determines whether it feel like work, or your own adventure.

Mashima - In that sense, the structure of the first island was something that we took and overhauled near the end of development based on Horii-san’s feedback from test plays.

Iwata - Well, well - it’s the so-called “upending the tea table.”

Horii - Hold on now, there was a lot that I let Arte decide on their own, so I didn’t upend the tea table all that much. (laughs)

Everyone - (laughs)

Mashima - Come to think of it, it was a pretty big change, but by deciding not to make that change it would have meant giving up on what “Dragon Quest” has held dear throughout the years. That’s why I think that those final adjustments are important, and should definitely be made.

Iwata - It’s not just that you simply lowered the difficulty, but I think the proper way to put it is that you carefully made the adjustment to examine anything that might cause players today stress. Of course, to an extent everyone is going to be different, but in the interest of making sure that no one would find the game unreasonable, Horii-san, being a “super normal person,” took each fine bone and carefully pulled it out.

Mashima - Indeed. But Horii-san doesn’t just pull the bones out - at the same time he crushes them and leaves just a bit. Saying, “That crunchy part tastes good, doesn’t it?"

Iwata - Ah, I see. He’ll leave them there on purpose for people to taste (laughs). He has a way of secretly tuning, like, “Right here people should have a little bit of trouble.”

Horii - I do (laughs). The thing that I pay the most attention to is the beginning. If people can figure out what they need to do and jump right in, I think that players will follow along even if it’s kind of hard after that.

Iwata - If you don’t leave a little something for people to chew on it gets to be unremarkable. That’s why this time you’ve changed the first island so that it’s much easier to figure out, but you’ve left that meatiness for the main story.

Sugimura - To that, there’s something that Horii-sensei has said to me repeatedly for almost 20 years now. That the difficulty for puzzles should aim to give everyone the feeling that “This was hard, so not everyone is going to be able to figure it out… but I did.”

Iwata - Whenever I ask about “Dragon Quest,” it always turns into a discussion about Horii-san (laughs). But his thinking in regards to game making and each and every thing he’s done is one of the driving forces that have pulled the Japanese game industry along, so the conversation just naturally goes the way.

Horii - When making games, most people will unconsciously fill in the space between different lines. But, even if you think “It should be fine to go this far,” the space in between the lines is different for everyone, so I think that’s why you get instances where people might not know how to control something, or be at a loss as to what to do next.

Iwata - Sure.

Horii - That’s why, in terms of control, I try to make sure there’s no space in between the lines at all. For instance, the commands that I made for the very first “Dragon Quest” - “Talk,” “Strength,” Tools” and what not - they’re words that you can’t misunderstand. I make them as absolutely easy to understand as I can, and also don’t say anything that’s not totally necessary.

Iwata - There’s absolutely no frivolous explanation. That’s one of the really interesting things each time. Maybe anyone can make something that’s wordy, but it’s not a matter of just being able to fix anything with explanation. If players start to think, “Hey, I get it already,” then you’ve lost.

Mashima - In that sense, “Dragon Quest” has never had a tutorial mode (※18).

※18 Tutorial Mode＝ System used to explain controls and what not at the outset of a game.

Sugimura - That’s certainly true.

Horii - People might feel uneasy if there’s something they don’t get, but that doesn’t necessarily mean people have to understand absolutely everything. It’s a chore for the people watching if the tutorial gets too long, so the important thing is that you get people to the point that they think they have a handle on it in a much shorter period of time.

Iwata - You can’t easily put into words this convenience and care that Horii-san is talking about. But I’m sure that the true objective for getting players to feel that they understand in the beginning is to build that trust with them