Topic: Darker Zelda

[odifiend]

BiteMy~uk, you could always give link any name you wanted to, but yeah I remember reading that interview on Nintendo.com.  But I also remember reading another lame excuse from Miyamoto-san saying something like he wanted "Game Boy link to look like Gamecube link," which really got me riled up because we have yet to get a new gameboy game, and the oracles of etc... commercial was definitely the link from OoT (in appearance but I guess they all look the same), so that reason fell through.
Guys, The Omen got what I was saying- make a Gannondorf game that elaborates or expands on the series, it wouldn't have to be a souless game, in fact since Gannondorf is pretty much an untapped resource, he could give Link a run for his money while bringing a new audience to a great series, if the game was made to star Gannondorf, the first male ruler of the Gerudo in a hundred years, lord of terror, kaiser of doom, fuhror of darkness, etc...  
(Read: Just don't take away his badass-ness)

[Bill Aurion]

Well, imo, leaving Windfall Island to head back to Outset to receive the third jewel was much more intense than anything I experienced in OoT...

[Guitar Smasher]

Hey! No need to get political!  These are video games after all!.

[odifiend]

Spoken from someone who obviously hasn't joined "the mario party" yet. Ahh! that was pun-ilicious!

[Koopa Troopa]

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As for the Cel-Shading, if they want to bring Adult Link back into series, then they won't be able to do cel shading. The two just don't mix. Try imagining cel shaded adult link. It wouldn't work.

I disagree, I'd love to see Adult Link cel-shaded. Although, I admit if they went with that "stubby-legged" look from Wind Waker it might not work as well... but at the same time I'd have faith that they would somehow pull it off.

[odifiend]

Re: Cel Shaded and the "Kiddie" look
Cel shading resembles anime as many have been quick to point out.  There is no reason why cel shaded can't be incredibly cool, just look at how Tales of Symphonia is coming along *supresses a torrent of drool*.  Most anime characters meant to look awesome, look pretty awesome. Alucard (Hellsing... even wearing that ribbon!), Edward Elric (Full Metal Alchemist), Chrno transformed or not (Chrno Crusade), the entire cast of Wolf's Rain, Vache, Frieza, Cell and mini & super buu (for those not using BitTorrent).
The "kiddie" look that was WW was Nintendo's fault but no bad blood; Cel shading was pretty much their idea (and took off after WW was shown).  It's gotta be tough to be a role model. *belches and scratches self*

[Jale]

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Originally posted by: Bill
Well, imo, leaving Windfall Island to head back to Outset to receive the third jewel was much more intense than anything I experienced in OoT...

Yeh I lurved that sequence! That was so brilliant and I think that is the darkest part of WW. I think the next game should be on GC and in the cel-shaded style, a continuation of the Waker of the Wind's tale. However on N5 it would be nice to see a game in the Spaceworld 2001 (i think...) graphics.

[Berny]

The sequel to WW is exactly as you want it, Jale. But I personally want no part in the Spaceworld Zelda. Link looked like Zelda in a green tunic. He isn't supposed to look like a woman.

[odifiend]

Berny, I agree that he had way too much redness in his cheeks, but just like they changed WW Link's eyes, they could change that aspect of him.  In fact the SW 2k demo's physics did not look that great (jumping really bad), but it was a demo after all.  As for the looking like a woman part, Nintendo makes that association too easy to make, unless Link's a cartoon.  His white suit under his tunic is easily and constantly misinterpreted.  I think Ninty should change the color to black or gray or better yet have a commercial where Link is suiting up, and puts his tunic on over the body suit.

[Gibdo Master]

Yeah, I never really liked how Link and Ganondorf looked in the Spaceworld demo. Sure the graphics were great but Link looked way too feminine and Ganondorf was way too bulky and muscular. Sure you could tell he was muscular in OoT but he didn't look like the freakin' Hulk either. It made him look like he was some all brawn and no brain villain.

Also as far as adult Link not working with cel-shading that is actually something that Aunoma agrees with. Anyway I have really come to prefer the cel-shaded graphics over OoT's and MM's. I have been playing MM on the bonus disk and I really think that cel-shading would have worked great in it. Also I prefer young Link. Despite what some people try and say Link in The Legend of Zelda was supposed to be a 10 year old kid. I was like 5 or 6 the first time I played the game so I thought it was really cool that they had a little kid running around slaying demons and dragons and exploring dark dungeons for treasure.

Personally I thought WW was fairly dark. It wasn't as dark as MM but then MM was pretty damn dark for a Zelda game. As I've played through MM a second time on the bonus disk I can't believe how many times death is mentioned in the game. They don't try to kid friendly it up either. Anyway WW is dark because of Hyrule being flooded and then destroyed at the end as well as the king basically committing suicide. I think that WW was a lighter game because MM was so dark. Nintendo probably just wanted to balance things out. I'm sure with Aunoma at the helm will see another dark Zelda like MM.

[Jale]

I never watched the Spaceworld Demo in any great detail so I don't know about him looking feminine or bad physics. I just meant that style would placate all those cel-cynics.

I dont want Zelda getting too dark like LotR dark with the world getting enslaved. Even MM had its jovial bits and in OoT most of the time you spent as a kid was quite cheery. I like Zelda games which are Dark with jovial bits added. IMO WW was jovial with Dark bits added. Still the best game on Gamecube, but only about 3rd in the Zelda series.

[odifiend]

Jale, if you want I could send you the demo if you give me your AIM screen name but the video i have isn't the best quality (about 3 MB- a video of a video).  
I think though that a darker surrounding makes a better hero, not necessarily gore, but the feeling of impending doom someone talked of earlier.  Humor is good in the beginning and at certain points in the story but Zeldas generally have a gravely serious plot.  At the same time, the cel shaded style and the color that goes along with it undermines that serious plot in WW.  I wish Nintendo would shift the animation style at certain points in the game.  Is there any game that does that?  If not, that actually might be a Nintendo thing to do.  

[Jale]

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Originally posted by: odifiend
the feeling of impending doom someone talked of earlier.  

Yeh I remember...It was me and a few other people.

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Originally posted by: odifiend
At the same time, the cel shaded style and the color that goes along with it undermines that serious plot in WW.  

The cel-shading could be used very well in a sinister game (XIII and Killer 7 for example) but the fact is WW doesn't have a sinister plot. Nobody is scared of dying except for the KoRL and Link.

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Originally posted by: odifiend
I wish Nintendo would shift the animation style at certain points in the game.  Is there any game that does that?  If not, that actually might be a Nintendo thing to do.

I dont think that would work. I cant imagine a character suddenly going all OoT-like halfway through the game. It would be too inconsistent.
 

[odifiend]

Still it would be original and I think it could be cool for any game not just Zelda.  I thought it was you who mentioned the impending doom but i didn't want to have to stop typing to go back and check a previous page.  But yes props to you because I agree wholly with that. Hear, hear .

[Jale]

I still dont think it would work. It would be like building a house half out of bricks and half out of metal. Nintendo games are like good poetry: fluid and consistent. If the rhyme system or the beat changes half way through a poem then it sounds broken and disjointed. The same would go for a game.

[odifiend]

Jale, I just disagree.  While I couldn't guarantee that any game that did this would be an instant success or that I could create a premise to incorporate it well, to say that it wouldn't work is being narrow-minded.  I'm not saying change the style everytime a character expresses an emotion, but as the climax builds or tension relaxes.  Also there isn't a need to go to extremes and do a cel-shaded next to photorealistic.  But cel shading with rounded and softer edges in town (a la WW), but as tensions mount in a dungeon, sharper and more angular drawings (a la Killer 7 minus the gore)- kind of like Hitchcock in Psycho.  I agree that if shifts were done suddenly and constantly it would throw off the inner rhythm of the game- but if done gradually in regular play and suddenly in a times of extreme tension or climax, it would be poetic- the art would match the story that was being told.  

[Jale]

Ah I see what you mean now. It would work really well on a subtle level. In WW everywhere was quite smooth and curvy and all the edges looked softened. They should put jageddy rooms in for boss rooms. Even in the Earth temple the spikes looked rounded.  

[Berny]

Rounded except for the tops. Celshading texturing makes it very hard to give it a rusty look, so they went with shiny. I think the Earth Temple's boss could have been a little less ridiculous though. Stupid, fat hobbit.

[Switchblade Cross]

You do realize that the Zelda series existed BEFORE OOT and MM right?

COme on man, you cant deny that if Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, or any other of the older 2D games were to be faithfully, and exactly recreated in 3D, that Cel-Shading to would be the path to go.  I don't think there is anybody here that went in to a wooded area in WW and INSTANTLY though "Lost Woods, LttP"

Cel-Shading IS Zelda!    Get over it...

[odifiend]

SBC, I'm assuming you were addressing me in your post, so thank you for that revelation.
Cel-Shading is obviously not the definition of Zelda because the most publically reknown one in the series is OoT.  Also to say that one art form is a Nintendo series is ludicrous.  If you said "Mario is 2D," you'd be laughed out of any forum.  In certain forums, if you said the same of Metroid, the same thing would happen.  You might be saying that celshading isn't 2D but since everyone who claims that photorealsim is a bad direction for Zelda points to the dated graphics of OoT, so I will point to similar in style 2D graphics for celshading.  No one really knows what a photo realistic Zelda game on GCN would look like, so know one is absolutely sure that the shift was right (Other than Miyamoto and his crew ).
My original post had to do with creating a side-story (since that is the new Zelda fad) starring Ganondorf because it could address some of the reasons I thought the art of Zelda was changed from OoT and sate my desire to see Ganondorf in his own game- he is an untapped resource.  He has never even used his sword outside of the spaceworld demo and SSBM victory.  If you read the entire thread you'd have learned that I'm not adverse to celshading but like Jale I found WW too happy and light.
If you weren't addressing me, sorry for anything interpreted as hostility.  

[Jale]

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Originally posted by: odifiend
like Jale I found WW too happy and light.

I don't have many problems with WW. I think it was one of the most enjoyable games in the Zelda series, partly because it was pretty easy and therefore very playable. It was a bit cheery but I'm not going to hold that against it, after all it is only the first story of this new Link.

[odifiend]

Sorry Jale, I didn't mean to drag you onto my side of the argument, but that was a gripe that I had with WW that I couldn't put my finger on until I read one of your posts.  I was trying to allude to that but phrased it badly.  My bad!

[Oldskool]

The Shadow Temple is one of the creepiest dungeons/levels ever made... The music, the setting, (yes there was a suprising amount of blood on floors and walls for all you so-called "mature" gamers) and the diologe there scared the hell out of me. Unfortunatly, they didn't follow it up in MM, which was darker throughout the whole game.

[Jale]

The Shadow Temple was way over the top. I found it really annoying with all those fake things. Good in moderation.

[odifiend]

So SK recently leader of SK, Denis Dyack, mentioned that he wouldn't mind making a Zelda game.  What has me most excited about this possibility is that he might do something more with the magic system in Zelda.  Eternal Darkness's magic system is probably my favorite in an adventure game and I think the Zelda series could benefit.  I love the sword spin but there are tons of other things Link (or Ganondorf ) could do.  There is no need for summoning circles or anything, but if his Zelda incarnation has a collecta-thon portion, each piece acquired could go to unlocking a technique.

Here are some of my ideas:
Link shoves his sword into the ground sending a shockwave that could stun or defeat enemies.
- Link could also use a variation of this move: while targeting an enemy push sword into ground and it would 'teleport' and hit the enemy from underneath.
Link could shoot one arrow that splits into several that rain from the air.
Variation:  With even more magic, can add fire or ice spread.
If Nintendo brings back an animal to ride on: a magical charge to charge through enemies.
Nintendo's idea that they should bring back: Long distance slash- I don't care if I have to wait until the last boss again but it needs to be in the next game.