Author Topic: This is what Mario 128 should be like... (Read 8944 times)

Gamebasher · « **on:** November 07, 2003, 05:51:18 AM »

I have a topic, right here, which I think is worthy of discussion.

See, I thought of the meaning of "sequel", and then, I thought of all the controversy that exists over what, say, Mario 128 will be like. Or, what it should be like, if it is to truly be called a "sequel"! So I looked the word up in a dictionary that has the cream of linguistic content for all who seriously ponder the meaning of words. It gave me the following result. In the Meriam-Websters dictionary (one of the best dictionaries on the market), the word sequel is shown to have the following meaning:

Main Entry: se·quel
Pronunciation: 'sE-kw&l also -"kwel
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French sequelle, from Latin sequela, from sequi to follow -- more at SUE
Date: 15th century
1 : CONSEQUENCE, RESULT
2 a : subsequent development b : the next installment (as of a speech or story); especially : a literary or cinematic work continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one

Note in particular, the last line reading: "continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one"!

So there you go! No more confusion...

The next Mario game must become that. A continuation of the story begun in the preceding one (Mario 64). This means that Mario left off with the Princess for making and eating a cake, after having defeated Bowser in the castle´s walls. He was in fact invited for tea by the Princess prior to her being abducted by the old lizard...

So it´s up to Miyamoto (given that he understands the true meaning of sequel, which I think he does - in his own "innovative fashion") to make sure that we are set in the same world, same or better graphics, similar gameplay (without being too difficult, mind) if not better (innovative, as he has reportedly already done), a new type of enemy to save the princess and the kingdom from or even a resurrected Bowser (how did he survive the fall into the abyss, then?).

That´s how I see a story continued. If it is anything else, I see it as a whole new story which is not felt as a "continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one"!

And that is how I felt about Super Mario Sunshine. It did not feel like a sequel to Mario 64, and I know many will agree with me, for I have read it many places on the internet.

Gamebasher.

vudu · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2003, 05:54:06 AM »

actually, if you want to go with your definition, mario sunshine was the perfect sequal to mario 64.

mario rescued the princess, they ate cake, they went on a vacation. what more do you want?

Gamebasher · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2003, 05:57:43 AM »

Like I said, it didn´t feel at all like a sequel and fell far short of the glory of gameplay and graphics found in Mario 64. Which I think Miyamoto knows, after all the complaints he got over Super Mario Sunshine. In which many, I read the complaints of, or heard of who complained, agreed. It was also far more difficult. And the graphics in many places were downright ugly and uninspiring!

While you can say that the story of Super Mario Sunshine was in a way OK, as you correctly point out, in my opinion the rest of it wasn´t. It felt rushed, too short and far inferior to that magnificent feel of playing Mario 64. It was less complete. And such is not the quality Nintendo became famous for. Many felt they were merely "impressed" by the gameworld in SMS, but didn´t feel entertained. There wasn´t the level of fun in that game, as there was in Mario 64.

Therefore it wasn´t a true "sequel" ! And Miyamoto did mention in several interviews that Mario 128 is the real sequel to Mario 64. If anything, I would call Super Mario Sunshine a "side story". For, just like in Zelda: Majoras Mask vs. Ocarina of Time the gameworld wasn´t the same. It was too different to feel like a sequel. And Nintendo did call Majoras Mask a "side story" to Ocarina of Time. And it was. Where was Hyrule that we love? In a another dimension, which Link had dissapeared from into this new one. But I don´t care about that. I love Hyrule, and I want to play in it, not in Termina. Why? Because it´s cooler and far more fairytale alike, than that nightmarish Termina and the shapeshifting "gameplay innovation" nonsense they left us with! But that is another story.

And we can debate this endlessly. I hold, that there are many who will agree with me that we have not yet seen a true sequel to Mario 64. And I think they are many more than those who don´t! And you won´t find them all in this Forum...

Such is the nature of discussion.

Many opinions are voiced!

Gamebasher.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2003, 06:10:27 AM »

If you think that a Mario sequel should continue a story set in an earlier game then you have no clue about what the Mario series is all about. Story is a non-factor in a Mario title. It's a barebones objective to give people an excuse to play. Gameplay is entirely the focus.

If you use this definition of a sequel then NONE of the Mario games have been worthy sequels to the original Super Mario Bros.

vudu · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2003, 06:16:08 AM »

how very untrue. allow me to go over the storyline:

the princess is kidnapped by bowser. mario rescues her. she is then kidnapped by wart. mario and friends rescue her. she is then kidnapped again by bowser and his kids. mario rescues her. she's then kidnapped a fourth time by bowser and his kids (this time they have castles instead of air ships). mario rescues her. she's then kidnapped again by bowser. mario rescues her. finally, they go on a much needed vacation, where she is kidnapped by bowser's son after he dirties up the island disguised as mario. mario rescues her.

oh yeah, and before all that happened, baby mario wound up on some island inhabited by a bunch of yoshis and they returned him to his parents.

for simplicity's sake, i left out the gameboy iterations of the game.

now if that's not the best story line ever, i don't know what is.

Gamebasher · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2003, 06:28:37 AM »

Yes, the STORY may have been OK. As I pointed out above.

But it didn´t feel as great as Mario 64. And many of you will no doubt say that it couldn´t ever! Because Mario 64 was a 3D break-through title! Which is OK. I still hold that Miyamoto can do better than Mario Sunshine. And I think he will. I really have to like the world I play in, you know. And I and many others simply hated that world in Super Mario Sunshine. OK? So therefore, at least I, did not feel it was a "sequel" in the true meaning of the word. It was simply worse than it´s prequel.

No insults intended, but have you ever heard about games that were scored too high? Or about a STANDARD established in something, which must then be either maintained or improved in what follows and not fall lower in that standing? Planet Gamecube forum is not the only place where people voice their opinions on Mario games. And in magazines like CUBE, and NGC and EDGE I have read the letters of gamers who truly felt that that standard was lower in Mario Sunshine! So it wasn´t a worthy sequel. Nintendo can do better than that, OK? You don´t call it a worthy sequel, if you drop the established standard in it. That´s what I think.

Or maybe you only read the opinions on Mario in THIS forum, huh? Try go and read the mags I mentioned, or go on the internet. Just see how many agree with me. Also keep in mind how many games that are out there today that are simply so difficult to play or even complete that many never finish them, but swop them for something else! EDGE has in several issues already covered this and the problems it creates for the gamer and the industry in great detail. Not boding well for Nintendo or any other consolemaker who should stay in business and do well.

We´re not all members of a club, where the order is who can finish all the games that are played and do better than the rest by a considerable margin! Gaming is as much about fun and quiet playing, as it is about wild competition! And Nintendo knows it, and should keep this in mind well into the next generation if it wants to stay in the consolemarket.

Personally I love to savour every last bit of a great game, like others enjoy a rare bottle of wine!

One can question authority, you know! Nintendo is not always "OK". They may have made many great games before, but as of late they´ve screwed up many times and they even admitted this and blamed it on the poor sales of GameCube (PRIOR to the pricecut).

Gamebasher.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2003, 06:54:17 AM »

"Or maybe you only read the opinions on Mario in THIS forum, huh? Try go and read the mags I mentioned, or go on the internet. Just see how many agree with me."

I don't need to read other opinions (though I have) because I own the game and thus have my own opinion. I felt that Super Mario Sunshine was a pretty good game. Disappointing for a Mario title but still quite good. It certainly isn't the worst game of all time which I've heard some rather hysterical people claim. I think if it starred anyone but Mario there would be virtually no negative stigma attached to it.

My problem with the game is the inclusion of the water pack as I've always felt it to be a gimmicky addition. It was an attempt to innovate for the sake of being innovative instead of being a natural addition to the Mario formula. It just seemed to me like an unrelated idea shoe-horned into a Mario game. It's inclusion also affected the whole game since the objectives based on cleaning and the tropical island setting (neither of which I liked) probably wouldn't have been included if not for the water pack.

My complaints with the title have to do with a change in gameplay design and not really the story. Therefore I feel that making a story that directly connects with Super Mario 64 isn't going to make a better game if Nintendo doesn't improve the gameplay and stay away from gimmicks this time.

Jonnyboy117 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2003, 07:18:04 AM »

Miyamoto had very little involvement in Mario Sunshine's development. He oversaw the project as producer, but that amounts to a weekly meeting to make sure the game is going in the right direction. He produces dozens of games at once.

vudu · « **Reply #8 on:** November 07, 2003, 07:34:16 AM »

the problem with game ratings is most sites/mags don't want to give a game less than 50% because we're all so accustomed to the 90-80-70-60 scale. (here in the u.s.a., anyway. i can't really speak for other countries because i'm not familiar with how their schools grade.) most people (myself included) don't really even consider a game unless it gets at least an 80. deep down inside (however much we may deny it) if a game gets a 75, we regard it as average, not worth our time, and pass it up. so what you have then, is the majority of games being rated in the low 80s, high 70s instead of around the 50 mark (which, by definition, should be the average game's score).

as gamebasher was saying, super mario sunshine scored too high. and i would agree with that. the game scored an average rating of 92% (kudos to gamerankings.com). if the average game was really scored at 50%, sms would have gottem in the mid 80s. but, since the average game gets about an 80, it inflates sms's score. i mean, you can't have sms sitting next to lord of the rings, can you?

Ian Sane · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2003, 07:52:10 AM »

Why should 50 be the average score? If you get 50% on a test that isn't an average score. It means you nearly failed.

"He oversaw the project as producer, but that amounts to a weekly meeting to make sure the game is going in the right direction. He produces dozens of games at once."

I think that's a big problem with Nintendo right now. Both Wind Waker and Super Mario Sunshine were considered by many people to be disappointing compared to Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time. I think that fact that the world's greatest game designer was the director for the N64 titles and merely supervised the Cube titles may have something to do with it. EAD's games this generation have been lackluster compared to their previous efforts and coincedently enough Miyamoto has less involvement. I don't think it takes a genius to see what the problem may be.

vudu · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2003, 09:01:01 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Why should 50 be the average score? If you get 50% on a test that isn't an average score. It means you nearly failed.

that's exactly my point. videogames should not be reviewed the same as your chemistry homework. if you make it so the average game gets an 80%, it leaves too little space for distinguish the good games from the really good, from the great, from the excellent, from the perfect.

if a site/mag rates a game on a 10 point system, and your average game gets 7 points, that only leaves 3 points for all games better than that. even if you break it down by half points, that only leaves 6 "slots" for all games better than that (i.e. 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, etc). you could argue that you could break it down by 1/10 points, but honestly, what's the difference? will a gamer who is trying to decide between two games read your reviews and see you rated one game as an 8.7 and the other as an 8.8 and therefore automatically go with the 8.8? probably not. after a certain point (in my opinion, the half-a-point mark) it becomes meaningless.

movies are reviewed on a 4 star system. and while i would argue that it is too narrow a focus (hard to distinguish the good from the great), most reviewers have no problem giving a movie 2 stars or less. it's the average; fair--not good, not poor. and i honestly enjoy many 2 star movies. yet if you go to a site like imdb.com, the same movie that got 2 stars by film critics will get a 7/10. again, it's because most people will try to rate the movie using school grading (average grade being a c, or 75%) instead of rating it as truly average (50%).

vudu · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2003, 09:07:10 AM »

here's another way to argue it:

on a 10 point scale, if you consider a game that gets below a 6 to be a bad game, there's really not much of a need to distinguish between a 3 and a 6--they're both horrible. so you're again left with the options of rating the game 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10. that's five options. then if you want to break it down by half points you have 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, etc. now you have 10 options, with the average being 7.5.

why don't you just give the games a true rating between 1 and 10 and make the average 5? it's pretty much the same thing because no one gives a game less than 50% anyway.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2003, 09:31:19 AM »

"that's exactly my point. videogames should not be reviewed the same as your chemistry homework. if you make it so the average game gets an 80%, it leaves too little space for distinguish the good games from the really good, from the great, from the excellent, from the perfect."

Well 80% isn't really the average score for homework.

At least not at any school I've been to. And I don't see why school grading and game grading have to be different. I suppose you could argue that with a school test the mark is based on how many questions you get right but even then aside from math and some science classes whether or not the you got a question right is often based on the opinion of your teacher. I think the same system that grades English essays can grade videogames. Both are all marked according to opinion.

Plus if we're familiar with the current setup why change it and confuse the hell out of everyone?

vudu · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2003, 09:35:51 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Plus if we're familiar with the current setup why change it and confuse the hell out of everyone?

same reason the u.s.a. needs to switch to the metric system. while it would be confusing at first, it is a better system and ultimately would benefit everybody.

kennyb27 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2003, 12:26:42 PM »

Quote
While you can say that the story of Super Mario Sunshine was in a way OK, as you correctly point out, in my opinion the rest of it wasn´t. It felt rushed, too short and far inferior to that magnificent feel of playing Mario 64. It was less complete.

Really? Mind telling me the story in SM64. Oh yeah:

"Dear Mario, please come to the castle, I've baked a cake for you. Yours truly, Princess Toadstool, Peach"

vudu · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2003, 12:43:35 PM »

nice ... i can hear that high pitched voice in my head. i haven't thought that voice in weeks. (since the last time i played super smash bros. did i win?) thanks a lot.

GaimeGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2003, 01:38:45 PM »

Actually, Mario Sunshine happens directly after Super Mario World, in terms of storyline, which we really should not be arguing about. :/

Ian Sane · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2003, 01:41:20 PM »

How does Mario Sunshine happen after Mario World? In Mario World they're on vacation in Dinosaur Land. What do they take another vacation right after?

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2003, 01:44:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: kingvudu
how very untrue. allow me to go over the storyline:

the princess is kidnapped by bowser. mario rescues her. she is then kidnapped by wart. mario and friends rescue her. she is then kidnapped again by bowser and his kids. mario rescues her. she's then kidnapped a fourth time by bowser and his kids (this time they have castles instead of air ships). mario rescues her. she's then kidnapped again by bowser. mario rescues her. finally, they go on a much needed vacation, where she is kidnapped by bowser's son after he dirties up the island disguised as mario. mario rescues her.

oh yeah, and before all that happened, baby mario wound up on some island inhabited by a bunch of yoshis and they returned him to his parents.

for simplicity's sake, i left out the gameboy iterations of the game.

now if that's not the best story line ever, i don't know what is.

The Princess was never captured by Wart...She was even a playable character...

And...the game was all a dream...have you played the game?

And Luigi's Mansion fits in the timeline between Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine...

GoldShadow1 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2003, 05:36:38 PM »

" similar gameplay (without being too difficult, mind)"

No! No, no, no, no. No to similar gameplay. The Mario 64 formula has been used and reused ever since it's release. SMS used it. I don't want a third Mario 64. I want a brand new, innovative game.

And NO! I want it "too difficult". Yes.. mm. SMS was far too easy, and the best parts of it were difficult. I want a harder game.

Just had to vent.

VideoGamerX · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2003, 03:47:49 PM »

In fact, there is no Wart in the Super Mario Universe at least in Japan. Super Mario Brothers 2 over here is known as Super Mario USA. It was the NOA that produced it because we needed a sequel to Super Mario Brothers and Nintendo felt Super Mario Brothers 2 (the one in Japan) was too hard for Americans. They feared it wouldn't do well and decided to cancel plans for an American release.

Subcon and Wart are truly but a dream in Mario's head, even in the real world of gaming.

I thinik a true sequel would be one that takes place in the Mushroom Kingdom. It's been a very very long time since we played a Super Mario Brothers game that took place in the Mushroom Kingdom save for the intro to Super Mario 64 and the running around inside of Peach's castle.

Super Mario Sunshine was a very appropriate sequel to SM64 and it was a great game. I'm still playing it. Just finished playing it in fact. I love the gameplay in it. It's challenging. I even find myself liking the water pack because it adds some very interesting dynamics to the game.

What I would expect in terms of a true sequel to Mario 64, since it came from the lips of Miyamoto, is a game that truly evolves the series in a unique manner that will take most of us by surprise. A true sequel in the Mario series does something different from the one that preceded it. A true sequel would sell millions and generate its own hype. It would make it's own notch in the series. It would stand apart. It would be, so-to-speak, the next step. This is regardless of where the game takes place, who the evil boss is, who Mario is saving, who Mario is teamed up with, and all other story-type elements.

Nintendo Gamecube · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2003, 07:40:48 PM »

I think the next Mario game should go back to its roots.

2D gaming.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2003, 12:30:21 AM »

I think I want an enhanced port of Super Mario 64, running on the Rebel Strike engine, at 60fps with object edge-smoothing and filtering.

Don'tHate742 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 09, 2003, 01:16:57 PM »

Since when has mario been about the story?

GaimeGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** November 09, 2003, 04:31:39 PM »

remember at the end of Super Mario World how it says that Peach and Mario plan to go on a vacation? Super Mario Sunshine is that. (Their vacation in Dinosaur land was spoiled by Bowser, so they go to Isle Delfino instead.)

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Author Topic: This is what Mario 128 should be like... (Read 8944 times)