Author Topic: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 46790 times)

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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #250 on: January 17, 2020, 10:01:53 PM »
That script sounds incredible compared to what we got.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #251 on: January 17, 2020, 10:47:07 PM »
If you are going to post that post the OG source.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62H56LMB-U

I told ya all JJ is a hack.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #252 on: January 17, 2020, 10:55:22 PM »
I am not going to watch 4 hours of content to respond to what you posted.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #253 on: January 17, 2020, 11:05:16 PM »
You don't have to watch it. It's not about my statement that JJ is a hack.

It's a bit of disservice not to post the original source of the script as it comes from Burnett.
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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #254 on: January 17, 2020, 11:12:06 PM »
You don't have to watch it. It's not about my statement that JJ is a hack.

It's a bit of disservice not to post the original source of the script as it comes from Burnett.
You are right I am sorry.  I was actually coming back to this topic to post thank you for posting the original source.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #255 on: January 18, 2020, 12:50:54 AM »
People probably would have hated Duel of the Fates anyway, right? We should at least acknowledge that before we start discussing this. There's no way anyone who hated The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi would have praised even this version of Episode IX. Colin Trevorrow was like everyone's favorite punching bag after The Book of Henry flopped.

That said, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates appears better than the Episode IX we got if only because it leaned more into what was already set by The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi (though perhaps not enough). My main criticism of Rise of Skywalker essentially boils down to: YOU DIDN'T EARN THAT. It's what Return of the Jedi would have been if they walked back on [sopiler]Darth Vader being Luke's father[/sopiler] and spent most of the movie trying to justify that decision.

Anyway, Trevorrow makes some odd choices which may have been ditched had he had a chance to revise. These include:
  • Kylo Ren having a mask put on still hot so it melts onto his face. Why would they do that?
  • Some dialog sounds awkward.
  • The entirety of Tor Valum. Don't introduce a major villain/Sith entity in the final installment.
  • Quasi-shipping Rey and Poe.
  • The reveal of Kylo Ren killing Rey's parents. That's completely unearned and unnecessary. He's Supreme Leader of an oppressive regime. Rey doesn't need more motivation to stop Kylo Ren.
  • Kylo Ren blinding Rey. Seems unnecessary.
  • Kylo Ren throwing Rey down some stairs instead of, you know, murder-death-killing her.
  • The entirety of the final Kylo Ren/Rey duel. He's redeemed after giving back some life force he stole from her. Why does everyone want Kylo Ren redeemed?
  • Hux kills himself with purple lightsaber.
  • Rey shooting the breeze with Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan in the astral plane.
  • R2-D2 projecting holographic memories. More nostalgia bait. Pass.

I don't really want to get into Rise of Skywalker's various issues right now. At the very least, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates doesn't bring back Palpatine from the dead for a weak twist on Rey's lineage that ultimately had absolutely no payoff.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #256 on: January 18, 2020, 05:49:20 AM »
The "leaked script" sounds pretty decent, and I like the big picture. There are a bunch of details that I don't particularly like as described, and some especially weak moments in the way things are wrapped up... but some of that might've been revised. Even if it wasn't, the movie sounds fun to watch.

I don't know though. Would that proposed script really be better than Rise of Skywalker? Both have some good and some bad points, and that's running on a lot of assumptions regarding how the "leaked script" would turn out. It's also easy to see how the death of Carrie Fisher would've made that script difficult to film - I think the leadership shown by her character is integral to the story (and one of the parts I liked most about it). Depending on what your expectations are for the final movie in a trilogy of trilogies, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to say definitively which story is "best".

I'm also a bit worried that some of the moments that sound good might not have turned out that way. Managing the "side stories" would've had to be done better than in The Last Jedi, because the pacing and lack of urgency (and relevance) there absolutely killed pacing and makes re-watching that film a painful slog. I'm not against having so many split lines of action in the film, but it would take a fine touch to make things come together well.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #257 on: January 18, 2020, 06:28:23 AM »
That leaked script may have been a first draft. Much could have been ironed out to make it better.

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #258 on: January 18, 2020, 08:48:36 AM »
That leaked script may have been a first draft. Much could have been ironed out to make it better.

That's true but at the same time it could have been worse.  Rise of Skywalker has had story leaks for over a year now and some of the things in the early draft of the storyline had the film make more sense that got cut or heavily changed.  So there's no guarantee Disney wouldn't have forced reshots or changes that could have caused the final product to be just as messed up as the film we got, just in different ways.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #259 on: January 18, 2020, 11:29:12 AM »
People probably would have hated Duel of the Fates anyway, right? We should at least acknowledge that before we start discussing this. There's no way anyone who hated The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi would have praised even this version of Episode IX. Colin Trevorrow was like everyone's favorite punching bag after The Book of Henry flopped.

That said, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates appears better than the Episode IX we got if only because it leaned more into what was already set by The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi (though perhaps not enough). My main criticism of Rise of Skywalker essentially boils down to: YOU DIDN'T EARN THAT. It's what Return of the Jedi would have been if they walked back on [sopiler]Darth Vader being Luke's father[/sopiler] and spent most of the movie trying to justify that decision.

Anyway, Trevorrow makes some odd choices which may have been ditched had he had a chance to revise. These include:
  • Kylo Ren having a mask put on still hot so it melts onto his face. Why would they do that?
  • Some dialog sounds awkward.
  • The entirety of Tor Valum. Don't introduce a major villain/Sith entity in the final installment.
  • Quasi-shipping Rey and Poe.
  • The reveal of Kylo Ren killing Rey's parents. That's completely unearned and unnecessary. He's Supreme Leader of an oppressive regime. Rey doesn't need more motivation to stop Kylo Ren.
  • Kylo Ren blinding Rey. Seems unnecessary.
  • Kylo Ren throwing Rey down some stairs instead of, you know, murder-death-killing her.
  • The entirety of the final Kylo Ren/Rey duel. He's redeemed after giving back some life force he stole from her. Why does everyone want Kylo Ren redeemed?
  • Hux kills himself with purple lightsaber.
  • Rey shooting the breeze with Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan in the astral plane.
  • R2-D2 projecting holographic memories. More nostalgia bait. Pass.

I don't really want to get into Rise of Skywalker's various issues right now. At the very least, Trevorrow's Dual of the Fates doesn't bring back Palpatine from the dead for a weak twist on Rey's lineage that ultimately had absolutely no payoff.

It wouldn't save Star Wars. But instead of SW being despised it would be more it's finally over now and we got one actual movie out of it.

The entire trilogy if you can even call it that is one of "You didn't earn that" whether it be the movies or the people making them.

Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement. He is a way to turn Kylo into a villain instead of a joke.

Shipping Reylo is far worse given that is a creepy abusive relationship. Rey and Finn is the natural choice but that was never going to happen. It also reinforces that time has pass.

Kylo killing Rey's parents is somewhat necessary as Rey doesn't actually have any motivation to do what she does. She goes somewhere, does things because the writer needs it rather than her needing to do so.

Blinding Rey is critical as Rey needs to get hurt and given how OP she is it has to hurt a lot to make Kylo as a threat.

Kylo isn't redeemed nor should he be given there is no one to do it. The only person who could stop Kylo was Ben. This also prevents Rey winning the fight again. It's a twisted mirror of the throne room scene.

Had the trilogy actually worked R2-D2 scene would have worked because it would have been earned instead of endless nostalgia bait.

The "leaked script" sounds pretty decent, and I like the big picture. There are a bunch of details that I don't particularly like as described, and some especially weak moments in the way things are wrapped up... but some of that might've been revised. Even if it wasn't, the movie sounds fun to watch.

I don't know though. Would that proposed script really be better than Rise of Skywalker? Both have some good and some bad points, and that's running on a lot of assumptions regarding how the "leaked script" would turn out. It's also easy to see how the death of Carrie Fisher would've made that script difficult to film - I think the leadership shown by her character is integral to the story (and one of the parts I liked most about it). Depending on what your expectations are for the final movie in a trilogy of trilogies, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to say definitively which story is "best".

I'm also a bit worried that some of the moments that sound good might not have turned out that way. Managing the "side stories" would've had to be done better than in The Last Jedi, because the pacing and lack of urgency (and relevance) there absolutely killed pacing and makes re-watching that film a painful slog. I'm not against having so many split lines of action in the film, but it would take a fine touch to make things come together well.

The word is one of the reasons Trevorrow walked as he couldn't flip Leia's and Luke's death in TLJ or keep Luke alive because of KK and Rian. Remember, TLJ had a year before release after Fisher's death. If anything needed reshoots this would be it. TLJ would still be omni bad but at least we wouldn't have gotten Mary Poppins.

Having multiple stories running is necessary given the resistance had to be rebuilt and state of the galaxy be shown. The logistics of why all these ships are there for the final show down.

A bizarre thing about these movies is everything about the production and decision making did everything it could to not be a trilogy. Instead it's 3 sequels that is labelled a trilogy. It's like calling Die Hard 1 2 3 a trilogy.

One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. It's coherent. Makes use of it's characters. It doesn't undermine itself by turning a chunk of the movie irrelevant later or Canto biting it. No retarded mc guffins. It doesn't pervert it into a victory for Palpatine nor deal with the absurdity of un-vaporising him then killing himself. It undoes the disrespect done to Luke.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #260 on: January 18, 2020, 05:37:59 PM »
... One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. ...

Can't agree with any certainty.

It might have been a better movie.  On the surface, I'll say that the script definitely sounds more appealing at a high level, despite a few niggling problems. I'm sure the critics would've preferred this movie. But execution really matters with big productions like this and sometimes "big, fun, and dumb" is better than a script that has strong/interesting ideas but botches the execution.

**glances at The Last Jedi with disgust**

If you can't know the actual outcome of both potential paths, and we certainly can't here, then second-guessing what might've been is an empty game of speculation instead of some kind of 20/20 hindsight.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #261 on: January 18, 2020, 06:05:49 PM »
It was really stupid to give the trilogy to 2 different creative teams. They should have spent 2 years writing three perfect scripts and connecting tissue then just hired a director to film all three. Hell film them all at once because you know you will make the money back. Then you would have had a true trilogy which honestly there aren’t many true examples of in cinema. Matrix, Back to the Future, Star Wars both trilogies. There are movies with sequels but not trilogies.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #262 on: January 18, 2020, 06:23:03 PM »
It wouldn't save Star Wars. But instead of SW being despised it would be more it's finally over now and we got one actual movie out of it.

Given the behavior of angry Star Wars fans, there’s no universe in which I believe this sentiment from angry Star Wars fans.
Quote
Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement.
If Tor Valum is a Sith who trains Sith, the Sith aren’t defeated. My understanding is in Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren just fucks off after being defeated by a Darth Vader vision. Tor Valum being introduced and notably not defeated is bad storytelling in the last installment.
Quote
Shipping Reylo is far worse given that is a creepy abusive relationship. Rey and Finn is the natural choice but that was never going to happen. It also reinforces that time has pass.
I’m not advocating shipping Rey and Poe over Rey and Kylo Ren. I really hated that kiss in Rise of Skywalker. Completely unearned. Why is Rey so horny for patricide? Rey could just, you know, not be shipped at all because it serves no purpose.
Quote
Kylo killing Rey's parents is somewhat necessary as Rey doesn't actually have any motivation to do what she does. She goes somewhere, does things because the writer needs it rather than her needing to do so.
Rey doesn’t need more motivation than doing the right thing especially given her Light Side alignment and the Jedi’s moral superiority we’ve been fed at every turn.
Quote
Blinding Rey is critical as Rey needs to get hurt and given how OP she is it has to hurt a lot to make Kylo as a threat.
Rey ultimately bests Kylo Ren in combat while blind before he does his Force Vampire thing so this doesn’t really stand.
Quote
Kylo isn't redeemed nor should he be given there is no one to do it. The only person who could stop Kylo was Ben. This also prevents Rey winning the fight again. It's a twisted mirror of the throne room scene.
In Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren gives Force power/energy back to Rey after being overcome with love or something. The implication is he turns from the Dark Side. Personally, Kylo Ren should have died a total villain.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #263 on: January 18, 2020, 08:02:48 PM »
...
Quote
Tor Valum isn't a villain nor a Snoke replacement.
If Tor Valum is a Sith who trains Sith, the Sith aren’t defeated. My understanding is in Duel of the Fates, Kylo Ren just fucks off after being defeated by a Darth Vader vision. Tor Valum being introduced and notably not defeated is bad storytelling in the last installment.
...

I disagree that this would be bad storytelling - or at least not particularly worse than a lot of other story points in any of the Star Wars movies. It could be framed in plenty of ways that would make sense. Nothing in this story is about "total destruction of the Sith". If Jedi influence remains and is being reinforced by Rey at the end of the script, then why shouldn't a possible source of Sith influence also remain?

However, I agree with a lot of your other thoughts. Especially that Kylo Ren would've been more interesting if he chose to be an irredeemable villain with enough conviction to never doubt his own choices.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #264 on: January 18, 2020, 11:26:21 PM »
... One thing for sure, DoF would have been the better movie. ...

Can't agree with any certainty.

It might have been a better movie.  On the surface, I'll say that the script definitely sounds more appealing at a high level, despite a few niggling problems. I'm sure the critics would've preferred this movie. But execution really matters with big productions like this and sometimes "big, fun, and dumb" is better than a script that has strong/interesting ideas but botches the execution.

**glances at The Last Jedi with disgust**

If you can't know the actual outcome of both potential paths, and we certainly can't here, then second-guessing what might've been is an empty game of speculation instead of some kind of 20/20 hindsight.

Err I think you got the idea a little backwards. A strong script is fundamental, it's your literal blueprint. TLJ is not a strong script. There is no way in hell any level of production value would have overcome the script, all that does is a flash in a pan. The premise alone gives pause. "Resistance runs out of space gas and a slow speed chase ensures". Canto bite should have made you bulk at the idea TLJ has a good script let alone executed well.

PT had massive production values for the time but had an absurdly weak script. It's boring execution simply made that more apparent.

One massive advantage on DoF has is that it isn't trying fight the last two movies or do "Damage control". It's pragmatic and professional, it plays the cards it was dealt. It throws a couple of jabs at TLJ as even back then Colin thought TLJ was stupid, but that's it. Nobody likes Rose yet it gives her a fair shake she never got. It does a reverse Jar Jar. Fisher dying isn't great but it's a known issue and just about anyone could have fixed that.

DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements. Not having Sheev alone puts it well ahead. It doesn't un vaporise the DS 2. The characters are proactive, coming up with plans instead of following something. They fail not because they are idiots but because the villains were competent.

What we know wouldn't have changed is the environment that it would have made under which was bad enough to make Colin walk. People keep throwing the excuse that JJ didn't have a choice. Bull Fucking ****. He could have walked or not taken the deal at all. He knew ahead of time what the environment was having experienced it. DoF provides additional proof that JJ is a hack if his body of work before RoS hasn't done so.

Given the behavior of angry Star Wars fans, there’s no universe in which I believe this sentiment from angry Star Wars fans.
They made very bad movies. Everybody could see RoS was going to be bad. You would be angry if you were kept being feed ****. Mando while not saving SW proves that the anger isn't something eternal or unfounded and that Solo flopping wasn't just TLJ.

By my count we have maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of a good SW movie in R1. DoF might have gotten you another 1/2 - 2/3. Anytime I go back and watch R1 which is the only I would rewatch I treat it as a short film.

Rey doesn’t need more motivation than doing the right thing especially given her Light Side alignment and the Jedi’s moral superiority we’ve been fed at every turn.

Designated hero does the needful. If that isn't the writer needing her to do something instead of her being self motivated I don't know what is. Rey is a tool, not a character. Whenever the writer hits a wall and JJ hits a lot of walls of his own making, just have Rey literally Force their way through it. RoS so called "Humanisation" doesn't change that, she is still getting handed powers, she is still a tool of the writer.

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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #265 on: January 19, 2020, 02:14:56 PM »
...
DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements.
...

Our viewpoints differ here.

I think it probably would have had fewer asinine elements, but there are still some present and we don't know what might've changed (for better or worse) from the leaked script.

Also, people take this all too seriously.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #266 on: January 19, 2020, 04:05:29 PM »
Oohboy:  You are right script is important.  Have a direction, trust the creative team and let them complete the project.  Jumping teams, not have a 3 movie completed script was stupid.

The one thing I might disagree with you on is the PT (I am assuming PT is the prequel trilogy). I actually think the Prequel trilogy's overall arching story was great and a true trilogy.  However, Lucas should have had help writing the movie and the dialog and the pacing.  He went at it alone which was foolish.  Disney has teams of writers that are collaborating a building their animated empire movies.  When was the last Disney animated movie 100% trash?  They haven't been, because they take their time.  (Pixar is another story I don't know what happened there.)  But I would take a remake of the prequel trilogy with good dialog over this new trilogy. 

Now, though I really want to know where do you stop Rogue One?  Or when do you start it? Since you treat it like a short film. 

Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #267 on: January 19, 2020, 07:57:08 PM »
...
DoF doesn't have any glaringly asinine elements.
...

Our viewpoints differ here.

I think it probably would have had fewer asinine elements, but there are still some present and we don't know what might've changed (for better or worse) from the leaked script.

Also, people take this all too seriously.

DoF script isn't exactly setting off alarms here, it's got issues and obviously adjustments made for Fisher. But it doesn't have any show stoppers out of the gate.

RoS has issues so bad any one of them would have sank it. When a leak came out my response was "This is too stupid to be true". It turned out more stupid it sounded the more true it was.

Oohboy:  You are right script is important.  Have a direction, trust the creative team and let them complete the project.  Jumping teams, not have a 3 movie completed script was stupid.

The one thing I might disagree with you on is the PT (I am assuming PT is the prequel trilogy). I actually think the Prequel trilogy's overall arching story was great and a true trilogy.  However, Lucas should have had help writing the movie and the dialog and the pacing.  He went at it alone which was foolish.  Disney has teams of writers that are collaborating a building their animated empire movies.  When was the last Disney animated movie 100% trash?  They haven't been, because they take their time.  (Pixar is another story I don't know what happened there.)  But I would take a remake of the prequel trilogy with good dialog over this new trilogy. 

Now, though I really want to know where do you stop Rogue One?  Or when do you start it? Since you treat it like a short film. 

PT premise is fine on the surface, but the premise isn't a script. The premise being Rise of Sheev, the rise of Anakin and birth of Vadar. It reveals a problem, we didn't need the TPM for the trilogy nor the prequels as a whole as these are things we don't need to know. We didn't need to know who Anakin was to know who Vadar is. Knowing more made Vadar worse off.

The prequels were really written out of tiny snippets of dialogue. TPM only existed because Yoda said "Too old to be trained". Anakin accidentally blows up the tradeship and scraps buzz droids because he is a "Great pilot". Clone wars is well clones wars. Then **** up the ending when you gotta kill Padme but do it way too soon. Establish the Imperial Senate so we can kill it. Entire movies just to fit a couple lines. The earlier premise is almost incidental. The real premise is those lines. Just don't make prequels. They are glorified flashbacks.

Now you say what about R1? R1's premise is go get DS plans. The problem comes in when it gets fixated on a non-plot hole. We didn't need to know who or how or what flaw came about. Which leads us to how I treat R1.

The characterisation is pretty much non-existent and contradictory anyway so you start at around after Jyn gives her bewildering speech as Yavin. The opening scroll is "band of Rebels goes to get DS plans", cut, next scene they are getting on the transport. The key to the movie is R1: Go Get DS Plans. That's pretty much it. You don't really need to re-edit it. Just fudge a little and you're there.

We don't need to know the DS is powered by Kyber Crystals. We don't need to know it has a low power setting. The office politics. We didn't need to know much about who these people are, if anything what came before makes them worse. Their character design, archetypes and what they do is enough. We don't need the first half of the movie.

I suspect this works as well as it does because this portion likely has the least reshoots if any. The attention to detail, the clever call backs, the cohesion, it feels and looks very different to the rest of the movie. You can feel the care taken. It's pretty much the only SW thing Disney has aside from Mando.

It doesn't have any significant bizarre orphaned elements like "I am going to stay here to die", Rebel's/Casian moral grey area, Jyn sudden turn or missing motivation. It doesn't pandering blue milk or have death sentence in 12 systems. No Marvel TV fighting. Cuts Vadar's dad joke and pointless meeting which undermines his appearance later. Like, why in the hell would Vadar have a house on Lava planet??? If you look out the window that is where I got really badly burnt. Cool eh?

R1: Go Get DS Plans
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