Poll

Who Should Be Added in the Second DLC Wave?

Shrek
1 (2.5%)
Godzilla
1 (2.5%)
James Bond
1 (2.5%)
James Jones
1 (2.5%)
Funky Kong
4 (10%)
Super Kong
1 (2.5%)
Tutorial Pig
1 (2.5%)
Who cares? Fox Only, No Items, Final Destination
1 (2.5%)
Geno
2 (5%)
Malon
3 (7.5%)
Your Mom
2 (5%)
Nintendo Characters!
6 (15%)
The volleyball from Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball
2 (5%)
More 3rd Party Characters!
5 (12.5%)
Reggie
2 (5%)
Sakurai
2 (5%)
Iwata
1 (2.5%)
The Playstation All-Stars
1 (2.5%)
The Mon-Stars from Space Jam
2 (5%)
Goku
1 (2.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: March 21, 2020, 11:36:44 AM

Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate And The Never-Ending 3rd Party Character DLC  (Read 73590 times)

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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
This is why I have no problem with Nintendo just reusing the Smash Bros Wii U engine from here on out.  Smash Bros Wii U already looks incredible in motion and it would just be diminished returns trying to build a new engine from the ground up.  This way then can keep all the existing characters since they won't need to graphically rebuild them each game, which will allow a 75+ character roster which this upcoming Smash will probably have.

This also allows them to build on smash 4's balance and cleanly transition the tournament scene from smash 4 to the new game.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2018, 02:15:16 PM »
If we're doing wishlists, I want to do something different than the usual characters and stages lists except:

Retire regular Link, keep Toon Link. Replace Up+special with the Korok Leaf, map the Spin Attack to holding the Standard Attack (no longer lifts as high upward in the air, maybe moves forward instead). Replace Triforce Slash Final Smash with the Hurricane Slash or something with the King of the Red Lions. The point is to give Toon Link more Wind Waker stuff.

New Challenger: Hylian Champion Link. Base all moves on Breath of the Wild:
-Neutral Special: Remote Bomb, press again to detonate (timer prevents spamming)
-Up+Special: Magnesis, two metal objects appear below Link = Magnesis Flying (not infinite), similar to Sonic's Spring -Jump, but there's some control over it (also, metal objects causes damage when they fall)
-Forward+Special: Stasis, freeze opponent briefly
-Down+Special: Evade, similar to Witch Time then press neutral Special for Arrow or Standard Attack for Flurry Attack
-Final Smash: something with the Champions or Devine Beasts
-Taunt: Cooking because I want the cooking song in the game

My description makes him sound hella-cheap so his attacks have to be on the weaker side for this to be remotely balanced. Just rolling with it.

Anyway, here's a wishlist of not characters and stages:

1. Fix the menus. Make them cleaner and easier to navigate. Training should be on the main screen.
2. Ability to toggle off stage hazards because sometimes it would be nice to play the regular stage setup without the randomized BS that can kill you.
3. Updated Smash Run Online and Local:
   a. At least 8 players.
   b. All players are in the same map and can interact with each other because...
   c. The map/"safe area" gets smaller until everyone is in the same area for the last minute or so then it's a regular match with all the bonuses everyone found. Yeah, it's just a Super Smash Bros. version of Fortnite.
4. Story mode:
   a. The characters are not toys or trophies anymore. They're non-canon versions of their actual selves. That means the writers actually have to care about characterization. Come up with some BS McGuffin for why the characters are brought to the same world. Why they're all together is not the interesting part; what they do once they are is.
   b. Fully voiced cutscenes.
   c. This is not Adventure Mode. As evidenced in Subspace Emissary, the gameplay doesn't lend itself to that. Think along the lines of Mortal Kombat (2011)/Mortal Kombat X. It's regular matches with exposition cutscenes. The story gave players a reason to keep pushing forward while also naturally allowing them to try all the characters except without silly platforming segments that really aren't the point of the game.
5. Tag Team mode. I don't know why this isn't already a thing.
6. Every character gets a taunt that causes minimal damage (like Luigi's bashful kick) for ultimate disrespkt. For example, Palutena's stripper pole taunt should count as a kick if you run into it.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 02:35:26 PM by Adrock »

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2018, 02:27:16 PM »
I definitely agree there should be a BotW-inspired Link, but I don't think they need to retire the original Link to do that. And I really agree on changing the menus, I never liked the way they were set up.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2018, 02:37:04 PM »
I only suggested retiring regular Link because we still have Toon Link who has most of the same moves.

Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2018, 02:53:38 PM »
Sure, I'm just spitballing and admittedly haven't followed the competitive scene very closely. My vague impression was that Smash4 has still yet to displace Melee as the go-to game due to a combination of how it plays and how the characters have shaken out (with an emphasis on DLC fighters throwing things out of whack).

But anyway, the point wasn't arbitrarily cutting characters (and sorry, Mewtwo and Lucario feel very similar, as do Roy and Ike, they all have practically the same moves, that's what people actually look at who aren't into the autistic competitive stuff), it was significantly retooling the game. Smash4 was fine, but it definitely felt like the game is settling down into a staid form. Smash Bros. Again with 15 more characters isn't that interesting a prospect and I think it'd be cool if they went back to the drawing board with a more focused cast they can then build on.

It has little to do with characters. They're just two very different games. It's understandable to assume that they compete because they're part of the same series and that the success of one game's scenes has a direct impact on the other's, but that really isn't the case. It's more like Street Fighter V vs. Tekken 7 than it is Street Fighter V vs. Street Fighter IV. Melee players will continue to play Melee, while Smash 4 players will continue to play Smash 4 and the Smash sequels that will almost certainly continue to follow Smash 4's foundation closer than Melee's. There's very little overlap in terms of competitive playerbase (especially at the top level), and both communities can co-exist and thrive on their own. All of that is to say, whether or not Smash 4 and subsequent Smash games displace Melee doesn't say much about how their competitive communities are doing.

I'm a bit confused by the second part of your post (even setting aside the part about Ike and Roy having "practically the same moves," which is not true by any measure). On one hand, you want to ignore the competitive angle and just look at characters from the perspective of the larger audience, but then you're advocating that they significantly reduce the size of the roster in order to prioritize overhauling the gameplay and/or mechanics. For most people, the appeal of Smash Bros. is that it's an extremely fun and well made game where they can play as their favourite Nintendo or video game characters. While I'm sure most people who really liked Lucina in Fire Emblem Awakening would have liked for her to have a truly unique moveset, at the end of the day, they're mostly just happy that they can play as Lucina. If you ask most people whether they want more characters with gameplay that's similar to Smash 4 or very different gameplay that comes with far fewer characters, the response would overwhelmingly favour the first option.

I'll try to be clearer since I'm causing confusion. (And Ike and Roy absolutely are based on the same Marth special moveset, which is the "soul" of a character in my book. There's no need for Marth, Ike, Roy, and Lucina to all co-exist. It's different tires on the same bicycle. Like I said, stuff about the damage gradient on the swords or hitboxes or whatever is missing the point. But we're setting that aside!)

-Is it not true that Melee remains significantly more popular than any other version of the game for tournaments? Is the Street Fighter II scene bigger than SF V?

-Regardless of competitive stuff, the base game is stale. Squeezing in an increasingly marginal extra 15 characters into the same Smash4 framework is a diminishing returns proposition. I'd rather they take another crack at reinventing the no-combo-input fighting genre, and/or rebuild a smaller core set of characters from the ground up to make things fresh instead of having 50 characters that are significantly worse than (or redundant with) 25 other characters (and hey, that could even help the competitive stuff too!). I'd personally prefer novel mechanics over maximal fan service. And if what you say is true, this should be fine because the games are all totally separate from and coeval with each other!

-Also, having 75 characters makes it less likely they'll have meaningful single player challenges and such. Smash4 was quite disappointing in this respect already. I want the targets back!

-Some random ideas: Incorporate counters into shielding or dodging or something instead of a bunch of characters having it as a special move. Remix the clones into the custom move system so there are single roster slots that you can change into variants like you do with costumes now.

But again, just spitballing. Hopefully they've got some surprises in store. Even just adding stock online modes for randos and having the option to remove dynamic elements like the yellow Mega Man monster from stages would be an improvement.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 03:05:35 PM by MagicCow64 »



Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2018, 04:11:35 PM »
Either way, I want Nintendo to go back to the old naming structure. Clash/Rumble, whatever. Color me excited.

Here’s the Inkling trailer:

And a direct link for BlackNMild: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Gt42kVgCw
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Offline Oedo

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2018, 04:53:28 PM »
I'll try to be clearer since I'm causing confusion. (And Ike and Roy absolutely are based on the same Marth special moveset, which is the "soul" of a character in my book. There's no need for Marth, Ike, Roy, and Lucina to all co-exist. It's different tires on the same bicycle. Like I said, stuff about the damage gradient on the swords or hitboxes or whatever is missing the point. But we're setting that aside!)

-Is it not true that Melee remains significantly more popular than any other version of the game for tournaments? Is the Street Fighter II scene bigger than SF V?

-Regardless of competitive stuff, the base game is stale. Squeezing in an increasingly marginal extra 15 characters into the same Smash4 framework is a diminishing returns proposition. I'd rather they take another crack at reinventing the no-combo-input fighting genre, and/or rebuild a smaller core set of characters from the ground up to make things fresh instead of having 50 characters that are significantly worse than (or redundant with) 25 other characters (and hey, that could even help the competitive stuff too!). I'd personally prefer novel mechanics over maximal fan service. And if what you say is true, this should be fine because the games are all totally separate from and coeval with each other!

-Also, having 75 characters makes it less likely they'll have meaningful single player challenges and such. Smash4 was quite disappointing in this respect already. I want the targets back!

-Some random ideas: Incorporate counters into shielding or dodging or something instead of a bunch of characters having it as a special move. Remix the clones into the custom move system so there are single roster slots that you can change into variants like you do with costumes now.

But again, just spitballing. Hopefully they've got some surprises in store. Even just adding stock online modes for randos and having the option to remove dynamic elements like the yellow Mega Man monster from stages would be an improvement.

Melee's competitive scene is probably larger, yeah, but I still don't understand the relevance of bringing that up. You could make the next Smash Bros. game better balanced, give it more interesting mechanics, or do just about anything, and most Melee players would just keep playing Melee because that's the only game they want to play (and the scene would most likely remain larger as a result). If you look at Smash 4's competitive scene on its own, it was at EVO Japan 2018, will be at the main EVO tournament for the fourth straight year, and has large tournaments taking place regularly. The fact that Melee's competitive scene is larger just says that it's even more successful and, as I alluded to earlier, Nintendo is not going to convert that fanbase no matter how good or how different the next Smash Bros. game is.

When you start talking about significantly altering the gameplay or rebuilding from the ground up, you might as well make a new series at that point. If you're going to greatly change the mechanics and focus on a smaller set of characters that are largely distinct from their current Smash Bros. iterations, you've basically rebooted the series. Maybe that's what you want and what you're trying to get at, but given that most fans are happy with the core gameplay in its current form (with most complaints being levied at stuff like single-player content or online modes) and the fact that the series continues to enjoy great critical and commercial success, I don't think that's a path Nintendo really needs to follow.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2018, 05:12:24 PM »
Wish list!

Character Stocks
1st stock DK, 2nd Dixie, 3rd Ridley. Every time I die my new pick shows up.

I'm hoping for this as well.  There was that one mode in the Wii U version that sort of let you do this (after you do the whole board game thing), but it really just made me long for a mode where you can pick them freely.  That would make for interesting matches/tournaments.

For characters, I'd like to see Ice Climbers return.  I think Shovel Knight would be a cool character to add, and maybe Captain Video as the wtf character.  I'm also hoping for Funky Kong for the lolz.

Also, do you guys think they'll bring back custom moves?
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2018, 05:34:06 PM »
And i’ll say just once more in case I can convince someone. The Smash Bros logo is new. It has those iconic cross marks going through the SUPER and the A in Smash. The little spikes on the outer S’s are gone from the Wii U and 3DS logos. The TM is placed high near the final S instead of below. There is no outline on the lettering.

Every other port has used the exact same logo with the addition of DELUXE, DX, etc.

And the music! There is a brand new original song being played in the trailer. It gives me an epic Brawl type of vibe. It almost sounds tragic.
The song is apparently from Subspace Emissary, actually. Also the lack of "other" developers and Hal's inclusion on the trademark list is similar to Smash 4's original trailer, which only added developers/companies based on their inclusion within the trailer.

Also, you're wrong.

This is why I have no problem with Nintendo just reusing the Smash Bros Wii U engine from here on out.  Smash Bros Wii U already looks incredible in motion and it would just be diminished returns trying to build a new engine from the ground up.  This way then can keep all the existing characters since they won't need to graphically rebuild them each game, which will allow a 75+ character roster which this upcoming Smash will probably have.

This also allows them to build on smash 4's balance and cleanly transition the tournament scene from smash 4 to the new game.
This is the aspect I keep trying to push people to understand. Smash 4's competitive scene is still strong, but ZeRo, its top player, resigned from competitive play because of changes that a... ahem... specific character brought to the metagame, among other reasons (general exhaustion). Smash Switch could carry the momentum of the many Smash 4 players into a new game by retaining a lot of its higher-level techniques, as well as its basic physics, while introducing a smattering of new characters. Considering the current roster size, it seems far more feasible to do this, rather than rebuild the game from the ground up. There were numerous balance checks that took place over the first two years of Smash 4's life, some that were simply sloppy and exploitable. While software updates could certainly happen again, it makes more sense to take what they learned from Smash 4 and transfer it to a new console.

But, I'm not going to harp on this any longer. No matter what the game ends up being, I'll buy it, play it, get invested in the competitive scene. If it is new, I will eat my hat, as mentioned prior. If it were new, it would be surprising and delightful, but right now, it's simply too early to make the call, and the mostly-baseless assumptions aren't going to convince me. To me, the foundation that Smash 4 established was extremely solid and more characters (in addition to character rebalancing) would be healthy for that competitive scene- Brawl's competitive scene is non-existant because it was anti-competition, Smash 4 isn't. While there's potential for Smash 4's competitive legacy to endure like Melee, I highly doubt it would be able to retain Evo spots like that game has.

To the people who think that, in order for this Smash to be new, it needs to cut out previous content, however, I will never agree with this. It's not JUST "autistic" competitive aspects that make me say this, it's because the spirit of Smash, and indeed, the reason people are excited about the arrival of Inklings, is its breadth of inclusion. While the game doesn't have to have as many Fire Emblem characters as it does, I'd never want to take out Robin or Corrin, because they were made with care and have unique elements to their play style, just like Ike and Roy do. Also, calling someone "autistic" for understanding the differences in certain characters is a pretty brutal statement.

As with Adrock's statement, I do have some OPINIONS about characters. There are really only two or three I'd like in the game, anything more would simply be a surprise/delight. In specific, here's what I imagine for some of those fighters.

-Old Light/Twilight Link should remain, retain his moveset.

-Wild Link should have specials centered around BotW/Runes:
Neutral B- Arrows, make this much more mobile. Link can draw while moving, albeit with limited movement speed. Pulling in midair slows ascent, has diagonal downward trajectory (aim-able?)
Side B-  Either Stasis, has limited range and must be aimed, think ranged Witch Time/Disable or Cryonis, creates a pillar that can be used as a shield
Down B- Bomb, drawing on the ground creates box bomb, air creates rolling bomb (or alternate draws)
Up B- Revali's Gale/Glider, decent upward range, player can glide afterwards, has a stamina meter that tells the player how long they can glide, can use Neutral B out of this.

-Inkling's moveset seems pretty obvious, but I'm curious as to how the painting/refill mechanics will work. If a player shoots at the ground, they paint the stage? Can walls be painted? Either way, I'm thinking:
Neutral B- Recharge, player ducks into Ink puddle to refill ink gauge
Side B- Ink Dash, can swim through a puddle at high speed, leap out and attack
Down B- Bomb, can be tossed for slight delay.
Up B- Squid Jump, similar to Dedede's Up B, but hits people on the way up, left vulnerable upon landing, but can do a dodge roll out of landing.

-Spring Man/Ribbon Girl seems like an obvious choice, worst case scenario would be Min Min. If Spring Man is in the game, releasing shield should give him his signature deflect, which should cancel projectiles. If Ribbon Girl is in, she should get four jumps like in game. As in the game, Punches should be very high-commitment, long range but can only throw two at a time. Dodging/Blocking/Landing on the ground should charge ARMS.
 ARMS moveset is limited, but could be cool:
Neutral B- ARM switch. I feel like this is the best way Smash could handle the variety present in ARMS. Players can switch between one of three ARMS, likely Roaster, Boomarang, and Megaton/Revolver. Each ARM has a different trait when charged, EX Roaster fire damage, Boomarang wind damage, Megaton super armor/Revolver electrocutes. ARM changes would cycle through, but you'd only be able to change through one cycle before it moving to the next one, EX:
First Cycle Player Start- Double Roaster
One Input- Roaster/Boomarang
Two Inputs- Roaster/Megaton
Second Cycle (one input after First Cycle Two Input)- Double Boomarang
One Input- Boomarang/Megaton
Two Inputs- Boomarang/Roaster
Third Cycle (one input after Second Cycle Two Input)- Double Megaton
One Input- Megaton/Roaster
Two Inputs- Megaton/Boomarang
Side B- Curve Punch, can be angled up or down. Roaster has slighter curve but faster, Boomarang has huge curve but slower, Megaton is super slow very slight curve.
Down B- Rush, can only be used if Rush Gauge is full. Think Limit/KO Punch.
Up B- Grab, works similarly to a tether grab, can be angles when used on the ground.

-Rex and Pyra could be a cool take on the two-fighter philosophy. I'm thinking:
Neutral B- Double Spinning Edge. Longer range attack, can hit players as it spins. If it connects, fills Special Gauge. If canceled, fills further.
Side B- Sword Bash. Similar to Back Slash, deals more damage from the rear. Stationary, long forward range. If it connects, fills Special Gauge. If canceled, fills further.
Up B- Rolling Smash. Circular strike, but propels Rex upwards. Think Aether with less range. If connects, fills Special Gauge. If canceled, fills further.
Down B- Blade Art. Rex throws Blade to Pyra, who is lighter and faster than him, with the exception of specials. Pyra remains in control as Rex's Special Gauge diminishes- the higher the gauge, the longer she is out. Her specials are:
Neutral B- Flame Nova. Larger range circular attack similar to Double Spinning Edge.
Side B- Blazing End. Ranged buzzsaw attack.
Up B- Prominence Revolt. Flames erupt from underneath Pyra and send her skyward. Launch deals damage.
Down B- Mythra Attack. Powerful burst of energy, quick transformation to Mythra.

I can see Travis Touchdown appearing, especially if Nintendo attempts to help push No More Heroes in a way similar to Bayonetta. Otherwise, I honestly don't know who they would add and I don't care. I'm just excited.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2018, 07:56:43 PM »
-Old Light/Twilight Link should remain, retain his moveset.
But, but Toon Link... even with the changes I suggested, he's largely the same. I was trying to avoid a Dragon Ball Z situation where there are a bunch of Gokus. This would be a good way for reducing the number of "clones" even though I suggested cutting the original. Toon Link retains the moveset, and Adult Link can be a costume for Hylian Champion Link.
Quote
-Wild Link should have specials centered around BotW/Runes:
Neutral B- Arrows, make this much more mobile. Link can draw while moving, albeit with limited movement speed. Pulling in midair slows ascent, has diagonal downward trajectory (aim-able?)
Side B-  Either Stasis, has limited range and must be aimed, think ranged Witch Time/Disable or Cryonis, creates a pillar that can be used as a shield
Down B- Bomb, drawing on the ground creates box bomb, air creates rolling bomb (or alternate draws)
Up B- Revali's Gale/Glider, decent upward range, player can glide afterwards, has a stamina meter that tells the player how long they can glide, can use Neutral B out of this.
This is interesting. I considered mapping similar moves. However, I wanted the Special Moves to be mostly Runes rather than mixing in the key items from the Champions especially since those have longer cooldown in the game. I nixed Cryonis because I couldn't figure out a good way to implement it, and I'm justifying my choice because Cryonis requires water even though I cheated to fit Magnesis. A lot of my choices were meant to make Link less spammy with items so Arrows are situational after Evade and Remote Bombs have cooldown. I like the idea that Evade would have a risk reward factor: Arrows are faster but deal less damage while you're defenseless in Flurry Rush, and if you decide to do neither, Link can still use Standard Attacks though it's the slowest option.

Anyway, Travis Touchdown seems to be safe choice as the character has been Nintendo exclusive except for that port of the original Suda51 had nothing to do with. We know what happened the last time one of Sakurai's friends asked to have their character added. That said, I can't see Snake coming back or any Konami character being added (which includes Bomberman) if only out of Sakurai's respect for Hideo Kojima. As much as I'd like to see a Belmont, #fuckKonami.

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2018, 09:49:10 PM »
That said, I can't see Snake coming back or any Konami character being added (which includes Bomberman) if only out of Sakurai's respect for Hideo Kojima. As much as I'd like to see a Belmont, #fuckKonami.

Even if Sakurai has strong feelings against Konami because of what they did to Kojima, I could see Bomberman getting in more as a way to honor Hudson.  It was Nintendo that approached Konami to get the most recent Bomberman made and many of Hudsons former employee's work for Nintendo now, so I could see there being a push inside Nintendo for him and Sakurai using it to give tribute to Hudson by filling his stage with cameo's of other Hudson characters and music from several of their series.

Of course I wonder if Kojima himself would be in favor of Snake returning to Smash Bros.  All the drama with Konami was going on during Smash 3DS/Wii U development but that's been a few years now.  I mean Kojima was suppose to be a big fan of Smash Bros, so now that he isn't locked in Konami's dungeon, he might enjoy seeing the character he created in Smash Bros again.  Of course it would be funny if this happens and Sakurai lets Kojima himself design the Metal Gear stage and they bring back the Codec conversations and both men sneak in a few jabs at Konami with some of them.
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2018, 11:47:57 PM »
As much as I’d like to have a healthy showing for runes, there are too many that are very situational in execution. I picked the options I found easiest to implement into gameplay- Cryonis and Magnesis just feel like the more awkward fits, and I mean, Revali’s Gale is just begging to be an Up-B. As for the other Champion abilities, the only one I could see working (likely replacing stasis because no one likes Witch Time) would be Daruk’s protection, which could have a reflect property and maybe a three-time usage before breaking.

As for MagicCow’s insistence on gameplay refinements- dude, you are essentially championing the philosophy that buried Marvel vs Capcom Infinite. They took out beloved characters because others could operate in the same “function” and people went nuts because both casual and FGC players want the same thing, which is to play as their favorites. When you talk Nintendo and ESPECIALLY Smash Bros., you’re talking about IP that fans love and Nintendo is actively attempting to promote. It makes no sense for them to toss out characters, nor does it make sense for them to radically revamp the platform fighter mechanics, a sub-genre they themselves championed. You keep saying that we’re missing the point when every point you attempt to make further shows no understanding of the fighting game community or even Smash as a whole. The game gives you options for how you want to specifically want it to work, and you’re saying the base game is stale?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:50:36 PM by Evan_B »
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Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2018, 12:35:04 AM »
I'll try to be clearer since I'm causing confusion. (And Ike and Roy absolutely are based on the same Marth special moveset, which is the "soul" of a character in my book. There's no need for Marth, Ike, Roy, and Lucina to all co-exist. It's different tires on the same bicycle. Like I said, stuff about the damage gradient on the swords or hitboxes or whatever is missing the point. But we're setting that aside!)

-Is it not true that Melee remains significantly more popular than any other version of the game for tournaments? Is the Street Fighter II scene bigger than SF V?

-Regardless of competitive stuff, the base game is stale. Squeezing in an increasingly marginal extra 15 characters into the same Smash4 framework is a diminishing returns proposition. I'd rather they take another crack at reinventing the no-combo-input fighting genre, and/or rebuild a smaller core set of characters from the ground up to make things fresh instead of having 50 characters that are significantly worse than (or redundant with) 25 other characters (and hey, that could even help the competitive stuff too!). I'd personally prefer novel mechanics over maximal fan service. And if what you say is true, this should be fine because the games are all totally separate from and coeval with each other!

-Also, having 75 characters makes it less likely they'll have meaningful single player challenges and such. Smash4 was quite disappointing in this respect already. I want the targets back!

-Some random ideas: Incorporate counters into shielding or dodging or something instead of a bunch of characters having it as a special move. Remix the clones into the custom move system so there are single roster slots that you can change into variants like you do with costumes now.

But again, just spitballing. Hopefully they've got some surprises in store. Even just adding stock online modes for randos and having the option to remove dynamic elements like the yellow Mega Man monster from stages would be an improvement.

Melee's competitive scene is probably larger, yeah, but I still don't understand the relevance of bringing that up. You could make the next Smash Bros. game better balanced, give it more interesting mechanics, or do just about anything, and most Melee players would just keep playing Melee because that's the only game they want to play (and the scene would most likely remain larger as a result). If you look at Smash 4's competitive scene on its own, it was at EVO Japan 2018, will be at the main EVO tournament for the fourth straight year, and has large tournaments taking place regularly. The fact that Melee's competitive scene is larger just says that it's even more successful and, as I alluded to earlier, Nintendo is not going to convert that fanbase no matter how good or how different the next Smash Bros. game is.

When you start talking about significantly altering the gameplay or rebuilding from the ground up, you might as well make a new series at that point. If you're going to greatly change the mechanics and focus on a smaller set of characters that are largely distinct from their current Smash Bros. iterations, you've basically rebooted the series. Maybe that's what you want and what you're trying to get at, but given that most fans are happy with the core gameplay in its current form (with most complaints being levied at stuff like single-player content or online modes) and the fact that the series continues to enjoy great critical and commercial success, I don't think that's a path Nintendo really needs to follow.

I would think it was obvious that the competitive viability discussion is a proxy for mechanical depth/"game feel". I'm no pro player, but I still liked Melee the best, and from what I've read the Melee competitive die-hards have pretty specific and understandable problems with how Brawl and 4 play. I don't think it's crazy to think people would gravitate toward a new game that didn't have compromised physics, 90% unviable characters, or whathaveyou. Another bigger, messier, pretty good party game is not that interesting to me at this point, even if I'm not personally able to reach an upper-tier play level. Obviously Nintendo is not particularly interested in my edge-case predilections, but I think they could and should take some risks with the next game beyond "have the 64DD be a fighter" or "make it slightly less/more slow and floaty". Buuut there's now a rumor that the new game started out as Smash4 deluxe and expanded its spec far enough to be marketed as a sequel, and if that's the case we probably know what to expect outside of some tweaking.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2018, 05:38:36 AM »
I could see there being a push inside Nintendo for him and Sakurai using it to give tribute to Hudson by filling his stage with cameo's of other Hudson characters and music from several of their series.
I mean, that's similar to how we got Pac-Man (though Sakurai originally said no for Brawl) except without the baggage of an anti-developer company like Konami. It certainly helped Pac-Man's case that Namco Bandai developed the Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS.

I'd liken this situation to whether you should date your best friend's ex. You probably shouldn't period as a basic courtesy (i.e. date literally anybody else), but if you did, your friend may give their blessing then realize how shitty it feels when you and their ex get together. I liked Snake in Brawl, but he wasn't so important to the series that it's worth crossing any lines. Nintendo, as a corporation, can make deals with Konami because that's business. Sakurai, as an individual who values his independence, would be enabling Konami's terrible practices by including even a Hudson character. There are quite a few Konami IPs I'd love to see in Super Smash Bros. However, I'd personally like to see the show of solidarity even more (again, #fuckKonami). Maybe Nintendo suggests a Konami character, but I wouldn't put much weight behind that unless Konami is developing the game. After Melee, Sakurai has been getting his way more often than not.
As much as I’d like to have a healthy showing for runes, there are too many that are very situational in execution. I picked the options I found easiest to implement into gameplay- Cryonis and Magnesis just feel like the more awkward fits, and I mean, Revali’s Gale is just begging to be an Up-B.
That's fair though there's a lot of cheating in the series to get certain moves to work. I gave Toon Link a Korok Leaf that would have an updraft coming from nowhere. I wanted Hylian Champion Link to have something different. Magnesis Flying is one of the coolest things you can do in the game. The metal crates could have certain properties. They could cause damage with no flinch while in Magnesis, do more damage when falling from a greater height, and break when hitting the ground from a greater height while remaining intact from lesser height (then be carried/thrown like Wario's bike). Just so the stage isn't full of metal crates, Link can only use Magnesis Flying when no other crates are on the field, creating another risk/reward scenario.

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2018, 07:39:58 AM »
Melee had 90% unviable characters for 10 years before people started utilizing different strategies.

Smash 4 is a fine game, it’s not as technical as Melee but it doesn’t have to be.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2018, 08:46:53 AM »
I really hope this Smash has stages with actual effort put into them, not just the usual "2-3 floating platforms in front of a non-interactive moving background" nonsense. That really started getting out of hand in Brawl & got really annoying in Smash Wii U.

Let's see more stages with interactive elements that change over time.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2018, 10:44:18 AM »
That's funny you mention that because a couple of people want to be able to toggle the stage hazards on and off, which would make me think there was enough variety there.
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Offline Oedo

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2018, 11:39:15 AM »
I would think it was obvious that the competitive viability discussion is a proxy for mechanical depth/"game feel". I'm no pro player, but I still liked Melee the best, and from what I've read the Melee competitive die-hards have pretty specific and understandable problems with how Brawl and 4 play. I don't think it's crazy to think people would gravitate toward a new game that didn't have compromised physics, 90% unviable characters, or whathaveyou. Another bigger, messier, pretty good party game is not that interesting to me at this point, even if I'm not personally able to reach an upper-tier play level. Obviously Nintendo is not particularly interested in my edge-case predilections, but I think they could and should take some risks with the next game beyond "have the 64DD be a fighter" or "make it slightly less/more slow and floaty". Buuut there's now a rumor that the new game started out as Smash4 deluxe and expanded its spec far enough to be marketed as a sequel, and if that's the case we probably know what to expect outside of some tweaking.

As I've said before, there's no reason to believe that most Melee players will abandon the game for any other Smash Bros. game at this point. They've invested years and years into Melee (over a decade for some pro players), most of them still greatly enjoy playing it, and the competitive scene continues to be very active. There is seemingly no incentive for most of them to jump to a new Smash Bros. game (no matter how good or how different it is), and there's seemingly no incentive for Nintendo to make any significant decisions about the new Smash Bros. game based on that community.

Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2018, 11:42:30 AM »
Solid empirical information, I cede the argument to you. And you know, couldn't be affected by CRTs dying every day and modern televisions having unavoidable lag that makes high-reflex older games unviable (and hell, probably new ones too to an extent). Also definitely couldn't be a symptom of any issues. Or interact at all with the fact that there's a potential audience aging into the zone of interest every day that has no built-in attachment to a Gamecube game.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 11:53:17 AM by MagicCow64 »

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2018, 11:53:21 AM »
I really hope this Smash has stages with actual effort put into them, not just the usual "2-3 floating platforms in front of a non-interactive moving background" nonsense. That really started getting out of hand in Brawl & got really annoying in Smash Wii U.

Let's see more stages with interactive elements that change over time.


The majority of the new stages in Smash Bros Wii U were exactly like this.  Even the ones that fit the description of 2-3 platforms in front of a background, have some kind of major interaction in them, which many would even say hurts them like Wily's Castle where the Yellow Devil can be a real pain in the ass.  Some of them might have 3 platforms during transitions like Skyloft and Wuhu Island, but they're always taking players to different locations based on said game that vastly change the layout of the stage several times each match.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2018, 12:31:31 PM »
That's funny you mention that because a couple of people want to be able to toggle the stage hazards on and off, which would make me think there was enough variety there.
Guilty as charged.

The static two or three platforms can get kind of bland. Maybe have the platforms move? Or in addition to every stage having a Final Destination version, it could have a Battlefield version as well. That way, the developers can really have fun with the level designs AND still have the basics that people like. That would add tons of variety. With a stage hazard toggle, a lot of stage could have four versions.

Offline Oedo

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2018, 12:54:33 PM »
That's funny you mention that because a couple of people want to be able to toggle the stage hazards on and off, which would make me think there was enough variety there.
Guilty as charged.

The static two or three platforms can get kind of bland. Maybe have the platforms move? Or in addition to every stage having a Final Destination version, it could have a Battlefield version as well. That way, the developers can really have fun with the level designs AND still have the basics that people like. That would add tons of variety. With a stage hazard toggle, a lot of stage could have four versions.

That's a good idea. I don't like playing stages with stage hazards most of the time, but I also don't like playing the FD version of stages a lot of the time either, so I end up defaulting to Battlefield or Town and City a lot. Having a Battlefield version of every stage would be a nice way to change things up (even if it all that significant a change).

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2018, 01:58:59 PM »
I like the idea of every stage also having a Battlefield mode.  That would let you enjoy the different music and backgrounds from each level without having to play on Final Destination.

Edit: but I wonder if that's too much to add with a hazard toggle.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2018, 03:11:31 PM »
I really like the stage hazards.  It's kind of like a different game where it's a contest to avoid getting killed by the stage.  For me SSB is a very reactive game.  The fun is in how well I can adapt to the chaos of stage hazards and items coming into play.  I'm pretty far from a tournament style gamer.  eSports is like swimming laps at the pool.  For me SSB is when the waves get activated and I'm 12 years old again and my friends and I are trying to knock each other off of the foam floaters amidst the chaos.

I have the most fondness for Melee but my reasons for it are mostly nostalgic.  Melee came out when I still lived at home and my youngest brother and I played the hell out of it to unlock the sound test.  He would come home from high school and play until I got home from work and then we'd trade off on the single player challenges.  The only other SSB game I have is Brawl and when that came out I now lived in my own place, and while I had him over a few times to play it, it was never the same.

Offline lolmonade

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Re: Nintendo Switch Super Smash Bros. (Working Title)
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2018, 07:32:56 AM »
I have a fondness for Melee based mostly on nostalgia, too.  But I DO miss how frantic and fast the game felt. 
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