Topic: This is why school shootings happen

[Termin8Anakin]

Don't get me started on your school and college system, cause i don't get it at all.
Our's is just simply Primary School (kindy to year 6) and high school (7-12), none of that freshman, sophomore crap. And what's with those weird groups at college? you know, the ones with the greek letters?
We don't have college here.

Actually, I'm fortunate to be in Sydney, cause that's where the majority of the universities are in New South Wales. We have five Unis in Sydney alone: Uni of Sydney, Uni of New South Wales, Uni of Technology Sydeny, Macquarie Uni and Uni of Western Sydney (which is where i go). There are other unis in the state: Southern Cross, Maratime, Wollongong, and like another two. I think in the other states, there are like only one or two unis.
I'm also lucky to live only 15 minutes drive from Uni.

College to me sounds like school all over again for you guys, since you said it is 4 years.
Uni only goes for how long your course goes for. My course is three year, where my friends, who do sciences and engineering, have 4 or 5 year courses.

[Grey Ninja]

Termin8, Canada is sort of similar.  We don't break up our high school years into those weird American names I can never remember.

The weird names in post-secondary are fraternities or sororities.  We don't have any in Lethbridge, but they are sort of like the real life equivalent of a clan in an online game.  They party together and live together.  That's really about it.

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College to me sounds like school all over again for you guys, since you said it is 4 years.
Uni only goes for how long your course goes for. My course is three year, where my friends, who do sciences and engineering, have 4 or 5 year courses.

College offers short courses that are designed to get you in and out again in no time at all.  Courses generally take 2 years to complete.  After you are done you get a college diploma, which is better than a high school diploma, and makes you qualified for a nice job.

University is a better form of post-secondary.  In addition to the bare minimum that college teaches you, you are also required to take liberal education in other areas in the effort to become a well rounded person as far as education is concerned.  Courses are generally 4 years in length with 5 courses per semester.  After you are done with University, you are awarded a new title, and given a University Degree, which is the highest form of diploma.  You have the option of taking classes for a longer period to upgrade your title.  You move from Bachelor to Master to Doctor.

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I'd like to personally thank Grey Ninja for saving me the trouble and aggravation of posting on this topic by stating my opinions brilliantly.

You're welcome.  I don't have the strength or the will to continue though, and I think I have said what I had to say.  You may continue in my place if you wish.

But... thank you for taking the time to listen and understand.  It makes me feel that I did and said the right thing.

[Ms.Pikmin]

Mouseclicker, I never said that a person would be smarter or more stupid based on the funding their school got.  I am also not talking about "expensive teaching aids".  I was referring to books that are up to date and basic school supplies like PENCILS.  Schools do not get equal funding and that DOES have an effect on the "base education" you are referring to.  

I think it's funny that you've been all over Grey Ninja for his unsympathetic opinion towards the kids who murder their classmates.  You said you hope that the people he may need later in life don't follow his I don't give a damn mentality.  I think you are showing that very mentality.  

[mouse_clicker]

No, I just really don't like all the America bashing that goes on constantly.  : | I'm sorry I miss construed your point a little bit, but I still don't see the big difference. Obviously more up-to-date books will help the teaching cycle, but if someone really wanted to learn, old books certainly aren't gonig to hold them back, and people who DON'T want to learn would be in that state of mind no matter when the books were published.

Another thing is I don't necessarily believe in everything I say. On IGN a few years ago I wrote up a 1,500 word post on why I thought that diseases are our natural predator which  exist to keep our population in check and that it's not in the best interest of our species to be making so many medical advancements,  essentially destroying ourselves through overpopulation. I made it abundantly clear, however, that while I think that's TRUE, I *certainly* don't think hospitals should be shut down or the sick and elderly should be left alone- that's a cold thing to do. So while I think that destroying diseases is bad, I value human lives much more. Truthfully, though, I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to. On the subject of people not wanting to pay higher taxes for better schools, that's something I think is horrible but sadly don't have any control over. I'd personally pay higher taxes for better schools and higher paid teachers even if I didn't have a child myself. On the subject of capitalist health care versus free health care, my only point there was it's a damned if you do damned if you don't sort of situation. Believe, that's something that is deeply troubling, but I was just pointing out that switching to a free health care system is going to change much at all, and may even be worse because some hospitals may not even be able to afford to treat people who need serious attention. If there was a system where everybody got the care they need at very little or no cost to them, that would be great. I'd fully support such a plan, but I don't think it exists. Gery Ninja's own mentality is if someone can't overcome their adversity and get the treatment they need, screw them- I don't really see many similarities between my own thinking and his.  

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I don't have the strength or the will to continue though,

I don't mean to be nitpicky, and this is only to (hopefully) prove a point, but don't you consider yourself weak for lacking the strength to carry on a simple debate? I've debated much more personal topics much longer than this, so shouldn't people be praising me while they shun you? I think you're a great guy, Ninja, someone I'd consider a friend, and I hope there's no hard feelings between us- I just think you're taking a very heartless stance.

[Ms.Pikmin]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

Gery Ninja's own mentality is if someone can't overcome their adversity and get the treatment they need, screw them- I don't really see many similarities between my own thinking and his.  




The parallel I am drawing is that IMO you are saying if kids can't overcome what their schools are lacking then screw 'em.  And it does make a difference how old the books are.  If we are talking about a book of literature then , no it doesn't need to be a new copy.  If we are talking about science or history then it does make a difference.  An example is, in my son's classroom, the set of encyclopedias they had were from the 70's.  Don't you think SOME new information may be available since then that the kids would want/need to know?  History textbooks have the same problem.  It is fairly common for schools to have history books that are old enough to say the current president is actually one from 1-2 administrations back.  I know they may not be able to keep up when a president has just come into office, but COME ON!

 

[mouse_clicker]

The key difference is I never SAID screw kids who can't overcome what their schools are lacking. I SAID that if a kid really wants to learn, nothing is going to hold them back from that. My geography books last year were from 1985, and I know geography better than anyone I know. The set of encyclopedias my parents have have to be at least 20 years old, yet I'm certainly not stupid. If kids want to learn, there's countless opportunities for them to do so both in and out fo school. I NEVER said screw the kids that don't want to learn- I just mentioned the fact that there ARE kids who are like that. My mother personally works with kids who are in special education and have learning disabilites, and I most *definitely* do not think teachers should ignore kids who don't want to learn. There's a fundamental difference between acknowledging the existence of such people and thinking they should be left to their own devices. I completely agree that textbooks should be updated often, but just because they aren't isn't going to hold anyone back. The people who want to learn will continue to do so and the people who don't wouldn't no matter what textbooks were there. I'm sorry if there was any confusion in that regard, but I don't think my opinions in that matter resemble Grey Ninja's in any way.  

[Grey Ninja]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
I don't mean to be nitpicky, and this is only to (hopefully) prove a point, but don't you consider yourself weak for lacking the strength to carry on a simple debate? I've debated much more personal topics much longer than this, so shouldn't people be praising me while they shun you? I think you're a great guy, Ninja, someone I'd consider a friend, and I hope there's no hard feelings between us- I just think you're taking a very heartless stance.

There is more going on here than I have said.  I am 22 years old and I am going grey.  This thread is touching some issues that I seriously do not want to discuss.  The reason for that is that I DO consider you a friend.  I keep reminding myself that you are too young to understand, but it's seriously hard for me to control my temper.

I have more to say, but I think I will leave it unsaid.

[mouse_clicker]

The age thing always comes into play- just because I'm 15 I'm naive and have no idea what I'm talking about. Do you want to see my post I made on diseases when I was 12? Maturity comes not with age, my friend. I'll respect your decision not to debate any more, but PLEASE don't accredit it to my age.  

Hehe- going grey. Gotcha.

[>X< Kitten >X<]

Beatiful. Peace has been made. Maintenant, dégustons notre vin.

[HiTmaN]

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And then you have the fundamental paradox- people in the US complain constantly about how little funding the school system gets, and how little teachers get paid, yet those same people don't want to pay the higher taxes that those things would entail. They want the quality to improve but they don't want to foot the bill for it, so the quality never actually does improve.

Eh, why cant the schools just give teachers more money? Last year the principal at my school got a $100,000 raise. My new school that I'm going to (which is full of gangster wannabes and stupid loud black people) is extremely overfunded. Most of the money goes to other things, but if your going to be a teacher you know the salary. Its not the pay, its more giving back to the community.

Back to the Star Wars Kid, this guy wouldnt have shot up the school. I mean look at him, where would he get a gun, and who would give him one? Its not like hes gonna walk up to some kid at school and say hey can you get me a gun?

[mouse_clicker]

Hitman: Like Ms.Pikmin has pointed out, a lot of schools (well, most schools) are grossly underfunded. It's interesting your particular school has surplus, but the same cannot be said for most schools, especially, again as Ms.Pikmin said, in poorer neighborhoods. The state I live, Kansas, has had a bunch of budget cuts recently and teachers get paid very little. My mother hasn't had work as a substitute at all for almost 2 years because the schools simply can't afford it. The only way to get better funding to these schools is to raise taxes, but you'll find very few people who would accept that.

As for whether or not the kid could get a gun, you'd be suprised. I'm not sure how the system works in Canada, but it's relatively easy to get guns in America. I could see your point about who would give a gun to a kid, but it's happened many times in the US and has happened in Canada as well, as Ninja stated. If he really wanted a gun, there's no doubt in my mind he could get one.

[manunited4eva22]

I live in south carolina, the vast majority of the schools in the low state are underfunded. In fact the biggest issue we have is schools. You want to get elected governor come up with a decently good idea for schools.

The fact is for me, I go to a school that has a whole lot of money and it shows. We have a massive football stadium (it can hold 20,000 people), we have a thriving computer group, and we really are just a bit excessive. Maybe its because I have had it all, that I feel that people who don't should be pittied . If you call it being looked down on, so be it. The idea of all of our pity, and helped. I'm sure a lot of my class mates would screw over a big portion of their friends if it meant a higher social status, but I really can't agree with that. By the laws of darwinism, the only reason we breed is to continue evolution, whether you agree with that or not, it leaves humans feeling a bit empty. Can you honestly say that you think bill gates idea of having the most money is winning in life? He may have made it to the top in money, but can any of you say that he has not pissed you off with his software? Has he been generous in charity? Yes, and he should be commended for what he has done. Has he been cut throat in his business tactics, yes, and that is probablly an understatement.

What I am getting at is, you can't define human exhistence only as competition. Granted a great deal of it is, but there is also a spot in it where people need to feel like they have a reason to be there. People need to know that they aren't just pointless spots on the planet, living here for similar issues talked about in xenocide.

Blah, /rant end

[Ness_the_Mess]

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Originally posted by: Ocarina Blue
Yeah, it's sad that this happened, but I think less guns in the country would have a greater effect.

Fewer guns in Canada ... um ... in case you haven't noticed, you need a liscence, which you have to pay annually for.  Not to mention, it's mostly hunting rifles, and the only hand guns are really hard to get liscences for.

Anyway, I was once a kid with few friends.  Everyone else made fun of me.  One day, I did snap.  No joke - I was crazy.  My house was across from the school.  If there was a gun in my house, I would have gotten it and shot everyone.  Kids can be extremely cruel, without thinking about it.  It's horrible.  People may say this guy is being mellow dramatic, but really, he isn't.  One time a school shooting happened, a classmate was interviewed, saying, "We don't know why he would ever kill anyone.  No-one ever talked to him, it was uncalled for."  That is the stupidest excuse I have ever heard.  If no-one talked to him, he MUST have felt loved, and had warm fuzzies all over ... no wait, that's just plain stupidity talking.

Oh well.  Shooting is uncalled for too.

[mouse_clicker]

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People need to know that they aren't just pointless spots on the planet, living here for similar issues talked about in xenocide.

An Ender fan has penetrated our depths! Xenocide really is an excellent example, though- at the risk of spoiler it for people who may want to read it (which means if you don't want a huge plot point revealed, stop reading), the pequinos discovered that even though they existed only to keep the ecology of the planet in check, they realized that that didn't rule out them leading meaningful lives. Interesting that someone else here has even read the book, though- I only know of one other guy who's read the series and he's the one that got me to read it.  

One thing to those of you who follow Grey Ninja's mentality- say you were fighting in the army and one of your fellow soldiers had his legs blown off by a mine. Would you leave him there? The man is too weak to do anything to either help the battle or help himself, so shouldn't you ignore him and let him die? He can't overcome his problem on his own, so that must mean he's unworthy, right? If you say no, you wouldn't leave him, how are physical and mental disabilities any different? And if you say yes, you would leave him, could you really sit there and watch him die, even if you think it was the right thing to do?

[HiTmaN]

I would pull a Forest Gump and run him back to safety, then get shot in my ass. Anywhoo, my school is brand new, and it has tons of funding because its in a new part of town that I am moving to . I absolutly hate it and cant wait until I go home at the end of the day.  

About the guns, firstly look at this kid. Does he look like he knows anyone that can get him a gun? Nobody at his school would, its not like he can give his $100 to someone to go buy him a gun. Its not like his family would and he doesn't live in the US I tought it was Quebec or somethin. Even if he does, the chances are extremely low. Also I I can see why people dont sympathize for him. I mean if he didnt do this in the first place and acted like a normal person, non of this would happened. Video taping yourself doing things is VERY VERY VERY stupid, unfortunatly an x-friend of mine learned this the hard way.

[mouse_clicker]

If you ask me, he has a lot more imagination than most people at my school. And looks can be decieving- I'd really like to know how you can deduce could not get a gun at all simply by looking at him. In my book, that's just not enough evidence.

[The Omen]

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One thing to those of you who follow Grey Ninja's mentality- say you were fighting in the army and one of your fellow soldiers had his legs blown off by a mine. Would you leave him there? The man is too weak to do anything to either help the battle or help himself, so shouldn't you ignore him and let him die? He can't overcome his problem on his own, so that must mean he's unworthy, right? If you say no, you wouldn't leave him, how are physical and mental disabilities any different? And if you say yes, you would leave him, could you really sit there and watch him die, even if you think it was the right thing to do?

You don't leave him, you pick him up and continue fighting the fight .  Its called heroism.  I dont see how that has anything to do with the star wars kid.  He doesn't have his legs blown off...he is not helpless, and in a case like this, it is that boys courage that must come through.  Why does he need a hero to stand up for him?  This generation of teens better toughen up or this world is going to eat them alive.

If i saw a fellow soldier sitting on the battlefield weeping like a baby, hiding, while i was fighting, would i go help him?  No.  'Only the strong survive'

[mouse_clicker]

Omen: I'm not adressing the Star Wars kid now- it was aimed at the people who think that only the strong deserve respect and the weak deserve to be ignored, to be shunned. Let me change the scenario, since you missed the point- say a friend of yours was in a collapsing building and had his legs destroyed in some rubble. He was desperate and crying for help. By Ninja's mentality, the man is weak since he can't help himself and should be left. By MY mentality, the man should be helped because he NEEDS help- it's against the human condition to leave one of your own to perish. And read what manunited said- since when do we have to follow animalistic instincts? I don't think you'd support survival of the fittest if you weren't the fittest.

And going by your own example, what if YOU were that solider weeping on the battlefield? How would you feel if no one came to make you feel better and you died there cold alone? You guys sit up on your pedastels with your high-and-mighty attitude, but what if you were on the other side of the fence? It's your inability to project yourself into other people's situations that makes you so heartless- you ARE no better than animals. You can't possibly imagine what other people are going through yet it's perfectly okay for you to pass ultimate judgement on them, to the point of *death*. I really doubt you'd follow your own line of thinking when the opportunity presented itself.  

[ThePerm]

leme explain the school system in the United States and it varies slightly because some states are different.
originally i lived in Valdosta, Georgia(the state not the country). So im going to mix things up a bit.

pre-school- I never went to pre-school. Its optional and not required. Supposedly kids who go to pre-school are better learners. But then again im not convinced entirely about this.

kindergarden- In my Kindergarden i was taught how to read and write, do basic addition and subtraction, and Science(thank god for ms. Gish..she set me on the path towards Evolution, the big bang theory, etc.)

1st grade- I think my teacher of first grade was an exceptional Teacher. I learned things such as phonix, extended math, more science, grammer, and that in 1st grade you are not uspposed to rip the pages out of the math books. Also i learned that if you are stupid you will stay in the same class for several years and be the tall old fat kid who sits in front of you. Poor wesly..on one hand he wasa bully. But he never bllied me. We were buddies.

2nd grade- Hmm its hard to really think of what differences there was in first in second grade. The teacher was an old lady. Hmm. We learned about polution and some geometry. Wewent on field trips to museums. And i was in a special ed class(im not stupid...the only thing i learn in there was that tion is pronounced shun. I had hella fun on those old computers though. Where in the world is carmon sandiego...yeah! My hatred and dislike for all amthematics started here. Math is tedious boring work. With every new day the teacher adds more and more homework and increases the difficulty(this does not make games fun, nor math) My theory is i would probably be alot better at it if they taught me all the operations at a faster pace and made me do less problems. The operations are whats important. Too many problems leafds to confuion and human error. I really didnt understand that until my college math teacher told me.

3rd grade- in third grade i was taught cursive and multiplication...in second grade i was shunned for looking up cursive and doing some homework in cursive(well you assigned hte damn homework on halloween..i stayed in most the night bitch i wanted soem fucking candy damnit!!!!! Me and my friend looked thorough the back of our english books..and what was that cursive) back to third grade. I beleive this is where my love of drawing started. Me and my friend matt started to draw all these cool submarine drawings(hmm i havn't drawn one in years sounds fun). In this grade my teacher said i probably had ADD but my mom said no(i probably do). So anyways i never took to multiplication well(gosh i still count my damn fingers...aw screw it calculators are so small and easy to use..they try to force kids to memorize vast tables and they should know every damn multiplication combination. Also my teacher was pregnant and she went through terrible mood swings. The enxt year she switched to beign a kindergarden teacher. I would say i played a part in that

4th grade hmm...i really dont remember forth grade very well. It turns out i was really a genious in english classes as my brother and i got the top two highest scores on some national test. I have always hated math but it really became a hated subject when i ended up in a special class. The first day we talked about roman numerals. she made thigns so fun. I sent this slip to my mom. Said the teacher was cool ...she talked about rocket ships and said "hoop there it is". Well i ended up in that class. And all i will say is that lady....WAS THE DEVIL. The next year or so was hell. She had stank breath, and she was always angry. She yelled at every single one of us every day until we all cried. I still remember the things that were writeen on hcairs about her("miss howell is a bitch, witchy bitchy, etc") Its not that i didn't udnerstand what we were doing. She was evil ...All we really did in that class was long division(gosh that shit was easy...but we spent weeks doing one problem after another) and multiplication tables(i still never learned them...there are few i know by memory..unless they are either simple or game related)

5th grade...hmm Mr Cambell was an awesoem Teacher...he was smart...he taught us Social studies like it was a baptist sermon(all dramtic..he was fucking cool. I looked up my old elemntary school on the net..and what is he now?..the principle CAMBELL OWNZ pine grove!!!!! Also in this grade we had like endless recess. We hada 15 minute snack break every day. Actual recess. and then right after actual recessPE(but the PE teachers were hell cool..so most of the itme they jsut gave us and 1hr and a half of RECESSS!) Twas a cool grade.

6th grade- we moved ot idaho and the education system was downgraded from georgia. Also the place was pure culture shock..i wnet from a diverse community of various races, creeds and ideals To a place that was quite racist, ignorant, and downright inferior i beleave. Anyways the kids were obseesed with fighting, downright rediculous. The teachers were also terribly trained. Whenever i askeda question they beleived i hadnt listened and punished me. I look back and realise how much better i was then everone else there at the time. I have real disdane for idaho. Nothign new was learned but the food was good...damn good. Because we had two mexican(which i have found out were illegal immigrants) students in our school it was required that you learned a ton of spanish songs and sang them for the school. Unfortunately that was crap so i didnt go to the quire. Whatever..i got away with it. Also on martin luther kind jr day..we went to school. In most states you stay home. But in Idaho its not celebrated. IK asked a teacher why we didnt have the day off. And the teacher was like..well if you stayed home you wouldnt learn anything. Well nothing about MLK was talked about that day. Damn Racist Idaho.

7th grade- more culture shock...we moved to Arizona. insanely hot. My friends never ribbed me anywhere else i lived. And seriously i think it was damaging. At the time my accent was very pronounced(in a snobbish sort of way, every silible was pronounced correctly and i was very talkative) well after one year in 7th grade i went from a peroson who talked alot to someone who mumbles in a soCal accent with glasses(thank you damn daily chlorine eye damage Gila vista and your manditory swimming) and my hair went from beutiful blond locks..to dirty blond curls. But um yeah school wasnt much better in Yuma. Anyways in seventh grade we started a tradition of only reading poems and literary works by Frost, Poe, Shakespeare, and Emily Dickenson.

8th grade - was the same as 7th grade...we studied the exact same stuff it was rediculous. We had american civics ..which dealt with the inner workings of our government...but it was nothing we didnt know from social studies and history from previous years.

9th grade(AKA Freshman..grades and terms are interchangeble)
well  this grade was exaclty like 7th and 8th. Cept i didnt do well in English. Why? Well the teacher was gettign old and she kept on losing peoples papers. Well she effectivly lowered the grade point average of most students...really killing my will to go to a university. She was a nice lady..dotn get me wrong. She was then reassigned to teach metally handicapped students. But yeah damn grade point average.

10th(softmore year) Same as the last few..we just did a bit more essays..i really wasnt goodat them yet.
I took german 2 i think..or german 1..i dotn remember..i either started my freshman year or softmore year..im not sure.

11th(juinior year) Well acording to the state msot of its kids were stupid and we had to take a test to prove our competancy(i passed..most didnt..so they dropped it and postponed it till 2004) anyways in this year  my english skills jumped. I had a REAL "English" teacher. He was harsh...but his constructive criticim worked well for us. Think Simon from American Idol.

12th(Senior Year) was like 11th...jsut a bit stressfull because iyt was the end of school. I passed no problem with a few extra credits.

1st semester of college...hmmm i studied my general courses
2nd semester...more general courses

this next semester im going in shall be my third and i will have classes totally focused on 3d artistry
and the semester aftwords i will also..plus a biology class. and then i will have an associates degree.

those college lette things...thsoe are called fraternities..they are only tied to schools because its mainly students inside them. They are social clubs and also housign for college students. I am not in one thank god.

now you understand a little bit mroe about the american education system.

i would like to note that in high school my grades were also hurt by unorganisation..we were nto allowed lockers because they were afraid we would store drugs withinside. well that effectively gave me back pain. Made it hard to organize things and pretty much hurt my overall standing in high school . In college where i have the aility to not to carry all my books i am doing way better(aside from the lost cause class that i couldnt drop) Oh and our schools have shit funding in Arizona....so we were screwed out of perks.

ok also explainign the fundign system....
public schools get funding from the federal government and are also allocated money based on the property tax where the school is located. If money is short(which it usually is) money then has to be raised with fund raisers and also cutbacks are made.
The alternative are private schools which have no budget problems..except in the U.S they are rather expensive. most parents would rather send their kids to public school because they pay property tax and federal taxes anyways.

also oen of the leaches of money in our country is the size of our population. Canada is a nice big country but it has half the people the U.S does and austrailia is like a thrid the population. This is probably why your system works so much better. More people in on area equals more problems. Theo nly country that is bigger then the U.S and at the same time has a better education sytem is China..but their communist..so its expected..thats like your life being ran by a private school.

i wish i had a spell checker on this computer...but i dont..enjoy the insanely long post.  

[mouse_clicker]

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also oen of the leaches of money in our country is the size of our population. Canada is a nice big country but it has half the people the U.S does and austrailia is like a thrid the population. This is probably why your system works so much better. More people in on area equals more problems. Theo nly country that is bigger then the U.S and at the same time has a better education sytem is China..but their communist..so its expected..thats like your life being ran by a private school.

Actually, Canda's population is about a ninth that of America's (roughly 30,000,000 and 280,000,000 respectively). Australia's population is about a fourteenth the size of America's, coming in at around 20,000,000. Both China and India have much larger populations (1.3 billion and 1 billion, respectively).

And don't worry about the spell checker- I've learned to pay attention to the content rather than the spelling. Besides, I make a few mistakes myself.

[Ms.Pikmin]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

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One thing to those of you who follow Grey Ninja's mentality- say you were fighting in the army and one of your fellow soldiers had his legs blown off by a mine. Would you leave him there? The man is too weak to do anything to either help the battle or help himself, so shouldn't you ignore him and let him die? He can't overcome his problem on his own, so that must mean he's unworthy, right? If you say no, you wouldn't leave him, how are physical and mental disabilities any different? And if you say yes, you would leave him, could you really sit there and watch him die, even if you think it was the right thing to do?

This situation has nothing to do with teenagers who are weak and go shooting others.  A soldier who was bravely fighting and then severely injured is not weak.  Also, in the military there is a brotherhood among soldiers and they look out for each other.  I know you are being dramatic to make a point but you are way off.  

What I really would like to know is why kids are resorting to killing each other out of frustration.  There have always been bullies.  Kids have always been tormented.  Why is it that now there are so many that can't handle it and they kill?  I don't think it's mental illness.  I think there are other dynamics there but I am not certain what they are.  Omen is right that teens today had better toughen up.  That is not to say ALL teens are like this, so don't think I am generalizing.

[The Omen]

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You can't possibly imagine what other people are going through yet it's perfectly okay for you to pass ultimate judgement on them, to the point of *death*.

By your line of thinking, it wouldn't be right for you to say ' you cant possibly imagine what people are going through', because frankly, you don't know what i've been through, and i dont know you either.  So its a moot point.  I've lived through some horrid times, and i've had periods of greatness, but it usually falls in between the 2.  Some of the younger generation cannot deal with any adverse conditions because A.) They are sheltered and haven't had a chance to experience the reality of the world and/or B.) They have become so desensitized by pop culture that they think killing is an acceptable form of expression.  Being from a broken home has some to do with it as well, but i don't feel like opening that can of worms.  

Who is to say whos hell has been worse?  You have to learn to deal with it...those that do, survive. Those that don't fade...or worse.

[Mario]

So... much.... text..... *head explodes*

Yeah, school shooting are bad, mkay.

[mouse_clicker]

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This situation has nothing to do with teenagers who are weak and go shooting others. A soldier who was bravely fighting and then severely injured is not weak. Also, in the military there is a brotherhood among soldiers and they look out for each other. I know you are being dramatic to make a point but you are way off.

Jesus- I'd appreciate it if more people understood what I meant. First off, we haven't been talking about school shootings for a while now except for a few comments Hitman has made that I responded to. I never really intended for the discussion to BE about the Star Wars kid or school shootings- I was using the former as an example for the cause of the latter. What I really wanted to talk about was morality, about the intense struggle that kids like this guy go through and how they need help before they blow someone's brains out. Ninja and his supporters have been debating with me whether or not they should get that help. And secondly, you're not getting the point of my example, and maybe my revised one for the Omen was clear either. The point is, someone is in desperate need of help and their life depends on it. If you're Grey Ninja, you leave him there because the guy is too weak to help himself and has to rely on the support of others. If you're not Grey Ninja, you get the guy to a hospital beause you believe nobody should be left to die just because they need some help. Is everything clear now? Half the reason there's so much text is because I've had to explain myself 5 times to every person. I don't know if that's a problem with my writing or a problem with their reading, but either way I'm hoping to end it here.

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By your line of thinking, it wouldn't be right for you to say ' you cant possibly imagine what people are going through', because frankly, you don't know what i've been through, and i dont know you either. So its a moot point.

Don't even try that with me- if you HAD been in some these kids's shoes, you'd either have killed yourself and be dead right now or be in a federal prison for having killed other people. I KNOW that because I can guarantee that nobody here could stand what they have without snapping. And don't try to convince me otherwise- it's not worth it.

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Some of the younger generation cannot deal with any adverse conditions because A.) They are sheltered and haven't had a chance to experience the reality of the world and/or B.) They have become so desensitized by pop culture that they think killing is an acceptable form of expression.

I seriously hope you're being hypothetical, because if you're not you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. The youth ploy is just an excuse to stop debating, otherwise I would've been buried under arguments against me and faltered myself, but that's obviously happening. It's not so black and white- it's not one way or the other. You have to think in shades of grey if you're ever going to realize my point.

And if I am young and inexperienced, so what? If I'm the only one who's going to stand up for what I believe in, for what's right, that's all that should matter. When you look at someone's age before hearing what they have to say, you're only forming a prejudgement. What if I had told you I were 27- would it be any different? What I said I was 60, or 70, would you say I was senile? Saying someone's too young to grasp what they're talking about is only an excuse for when they don't have anything to say back. I'm not going to see people cast down all that I stand for just because I'm 15- to me age is little more than a measure of how much longer you have left to live.

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Who is to say whos hell has been worse? You have to learn to deal with it...those that do, survive. Those that don't fade...or worse.

Am I going to have to start typing in caps to get my point across? Can you read, or did you just conveniantly skip what I've been saying? I have yet to see anyhing new from your side- it's the same god damned thing over and over again. Here it is, in full capital glory:
PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES- IF YOU WERE ON THE VERGE OF A MENTAL BREAK DOWN, WOULD YOU RATHER PEOPLE SHUNNED YOU AND LET YOU SPIRAL INTO MADNESS OR WOULD YOU WANT HELP TO GET YOU BACK ON TRACK?

If you're so caught up in animalistic instincts, lets kill off your grandparents, lets kill off your parents- the only thing that matters to a species is propogation, and anything that isn't increasing our population is holding it back. If you believe in survival of the fittest, start acting on it! The old are weak- they suck our resources dry only to croak on us the next day. The only thing that matters are those who bear us children and after that they are of no use. Anyone over the age of 40 has worn out their welcome and only hinder us as a species. The sick, they're no better. They leach our food, our space and return what? We bring them back to the realm of health only to have them eat more of our food, drink more of our water? Who cares that it's your sister or brother that's sick- human emotions have no place when instinct rules the world, and they must be picked off like the scab they are on our race. We're raping our planet and the only thing we can do to stop it is to thin the population, so why not start with those that do us no good? The old bear us no young, they should be slaughtered. They're weak- few can barely even walk on their own. THAT'S not survival of the fittest, trying to care for those that need help. But emotions are a human weakness- they hold us back from achieving true superiority. The wolf pack expresses no remorse when it picks out the easiest to kill, the sick and the old, and then murder it- they're only doing it for survival. We need to weed out what holds us back, regardless of what emotional attachment we have to them! THAT is the only way to truly insure the survival of our species, to cut off that which holds us back, to seperate from our tired limbs the lead weight that hinders our progress. THAT'S natural instinct, THAT'S survival of the fittest, and THAT'S what you support, Omen. If you're going to believe in something as rudimentary as a mind trained only to save it's own skin and pass it's genes on to the next generation, you damn well better get off your ass and start acting upon it. If anyone's the hypocrite around here, it's YOU- don't blame me for believing that maybe, just maybe there's more to life than that. You shouldn't even care what I think- interest in others' opinions is a sign of a weakness, a sign you're not steady enough in your own stance that you must enlist the aid of others to make sure you ARE right. I'm tired of people like you, who preach one thing to an audience of open ears only to do the opposite when no one's looking. You may think your life sucks right now, but if everybody on Earth thought like you did your life would be a living hell.    

[>X< Kitten >X<]

mouse_clicker,
I feel you need a little support here so I'm just gonna say that I read all your posts here, and I've understood and agreed with you from the begining.