Author Topic: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War  (Read 6428 times)

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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« on: July 16, 2003, 09:07:41 PM »
I honestly don't know if there is any point to proving this. I haven't been here in a little while so I don't know what peoples opinions on this are. All I know is that when planetgamecube.com switched from ezboard to this board one of the first things I did is have a bit of an argument with a fella as to the fact that the events that happen in OoT are the Imprisoning War that LttP manual talks about. Well after all this time I finally found proof so I'm posting it.

Okay click here and read this nice mans topic. Specifically go to the second post.

Quote

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda.


So ha to everyone who doubted my infinite Zelda wisdom.  
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2003, 01:14:29 AM »
Awesome.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2003, 08:02:59 AM »
SPOILERS!!

It takes place during the Imprisoning War, yes- a lot of people say Miyamoto doesn't care about story continuity, but he did go through the trouble of making OoT's story comply with LttP's- the seven maidens in LttP are descendants of the seven sages (although apparently the Kokiri, Zora, and Goron ones all turned into humans). LttP is about how Ganondorf is reaking havoc across what used to be the Light Realm where the Triforce was, and where he was imprisoned at the end of OoT. I guess he escaped before then, as Wind Waker suggests- maybe you send him back to his imprisonment by defeating him in WW.  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2003, 09:22:12 AM »
I know this may seem strange, but maybe there is more than one Ganondorf, just as there is more than one Link.  The Ganondorf in OoT/WW is a Gerudo, while the one in LttP is a Hylian thief(they look nothing like each other while in human form).  Hopefully this will be explained when Ninty finally fills in the gap between this game and LttP.  
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Offline Hostile Creation

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2003, 09:47:44 AM »
Interesting, but I'm still not convinced that LttP comes after OoT, or in fact that they're at all related.  Think about it. . . why would Nintendo want to bring the series into a loop like that?  The only reason that they would bring Zelda to meet back up with LttP would be to end the series, and Nintendo probably isn't going to stop anything as profitable as Zelda is.

And of course there are the usual holes.  The interview seems to have been given early in development, giving plenty of time for their minds to change.  I'm not saying that this isn't true, but Nintendo can certainly ignore what they said back then if it suits them now.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2003, 11:30:33 AM »
Who says if they tie the knot to LttP they will have to end the series?  They could easily make a prequal to OoT where the Master Sword is first made, not to mention continuie the series past AoL for the NES.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2003, 03:44:42 PM »
Well, according to Lttp, I believe, the Master Sword was made during the Imprisoning War.  Oops.

They could make a prequal, but I just don't feel like that's going to happen.  In my gut I feel it.  Change is coming.  CHANGE!
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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2003, 07:28:05 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill
I know this may seem strange, but maybe there is more than one Ganondorf, just as there is more than one Link.  The Ganondorf in OoT/WW is a Gerudo, while the one in LttP is a Hylian thief(they look nothing like each other while in human form).  Hopefully this will be explained when Ninty finally fills in the gap between this game and LttP.
It never says that Ganon is a Hylian thief. It simply says that he is a thief and a leader of thieves.

The following qoute is taken straight from the manual.

Quote

The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon,  which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves.
Secondly Ganon was never in human form in ALttP so I don't know how you compared him with the OoT version. Are you talking about Agahnim? He was the only human baddy in the game.

Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Interesting, but I'm still not convinced that LttP comes after OoT, or in fact that they're at all related.  Think about it. . . why would Nintendo want to bring the series into a loop like that?  The only reason that they would bring Zelda to meet back up with LttP would be to end the series, and Nintendo probably isn't going to stop anything as profitable as Zelda is.

And of course there are the usual holes.  The interview seems to have been given early in development, giving plenty of time for their minds to change.  I'm not saying that this isn't true, but Nintendo can certainly ignore what they said back then if it suits them now.
I don't understand this at all. Ever since we first were told about OoT we have been told it would be a prequel and would be considered the first game in the time line. Not to mention the guy that wrote the story just said so and you still don't believe it. Finally I doubt this interview was made early in development. Nintendo would never give away plot information or tell you that Ganon would be in human form and pig form before the game was released. Also the interview is conducted in such a way that they feel everyone's already played the games and knows about it.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2003, 04:17:03 AM »
Did anyone read the official LttP comic in Nintendo Power?  That's what I'm making my comparison off of.  I know things change, but Ganondorf wasn't a thief in OoT.  Who knows if Ninty remembered about their comic when they made OoT.  Just little things that not many remember.
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Offline Gibdo Master

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2003, 11:23:15 AM »
I doubt the comic is considered canon. In fact the only thing that should be considered canon is of course the games and the instruction manuals.  I seriously doubt the guys that make the games had any involement with that comic or even care about it.  
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Offline Hostile Creation

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2003, 07:35:35 PM »
The only thing considered canon is the developers themselves, not their previous products.  That's not what I based my statement off of.  I just think that Nintendo has something in mind for the Zelda series now, whereas it was muddled and disregarded in many of the previous games.  I think that the Imprisoning War was what OoT was originally supposed to be, but, despite what may have been said and what seemed to have occured, it didn't turn out that way.  This is merely intuition, so you can call me an idiot or whatever, but I'm intuitively right more often than not.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2003, 10:20:28 PM »
Look at OoT's plot, though- Ganondorf fought against the King for posession of Hyrule and won and was then imprisoned by the 7 sages- how is that NOT the Imprisoning War? I believe they even mention the Imprisoning War in OoT or it's instruction manual. This isn't a matter of intuition, it's a matter of looking at the plots and fitting them together.
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Offline Gamefreak

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2003, 10:40:17 PM »
The Book of Mudura, like any book that deals with the past, contains information that has been twisted to something that is only a half truth. In fact, it even says that the location of the Triforce and other information has been lost over ages in the passing down process....So while the Book of Mudora said that Ganondorf Dragmire accidentally opened the way to the Sacred Realm, then betrayed his men to get the Triforce, what really happened was that he followed Link in there and swiped the Triforce (of Power, at least) while Link went to lala land....And then while the Book says the 7 Wise Men and the Hylian Knights fought a big bad war and sealed Ganondorf away, what really happend was that the Hero of Time defeated him and the 7 sages locked Ganondorf away....

Well that's my explanation....and it's far more logical that Miyamoto simply making up far-fetched things just to keep the story somewhat together....but of course remember the only reason he is keeping the story "together" at all is to not make an idiot out of the franchise...the story doesn't matter in Zelda, it's just something to justify the gameplay...

Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2003, 10:53:08 PM »
First of all if the only thing that is to be taken as canon is the developers then what is the point of their being any sort of storyline in the Zelda series? If that is the case then why don't they just make it like the Final Fantasy games in how they don't have any connection with one another. Besides saying the developers are canon doesn't make sense any way. When you make a series and each installment of that series has a story that relates in some way to the other installments then the stories have to be considered canon.

What is so wrong with the events of OoT being the Imprisoning War and why do you feel it didn't turn out that way. It really irritates me when people try to make an argument without giving any reason other than saying they agree or disagree with something.

If you read the ALttP manual you will find many similarities between the events of the Imprisoning War and OoT. I'm going to try and go through them step by step here.

Quote

One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts. This land was like no other. In the gathering twilight, the Triforce shone from its resting place high above the world. In a long running battle, the leader of the thieves fought his way past his followers in a lust for the Golden Power. After vanquishing his own followers, the leader stood triumphant over the Triforce and grasped it with his blood- stained hands. He heard a whispered voice: "If thou has a strong desire or dream, wish for it..." And in reply, the roaring laughter of the brigand leader echoed across time and space and even reached the far-off land of Hyrule. The name of this king of thieves is Ganondorf Dragmire, but he is known by his alias, Mandrag Ganon, which means Ganon of the Enchanted Thieves.
First of all the very fact that what leads up to the Imprisoning War is Ganondorf entering the Golden Land and stealing the Triforce should tell you that OoT is all about the Imprisoning. If your still not convinced I'll go on. Notice that it says that Ganondorf gained entrance to the Golden Land by accident. Well in OoT Ganondorf got into the Golden Land (Sacred Realm) because of Link's and Zelda's stupidity. Due to Zelda giving Link the Ocarina and then Link using it to gain access to and pull the Master Sword Ganondorf was accidentally allowed access to the Golden Land.

So what about Ganondorf fighting his way past his followers and killing them? Well, that can be explained by this part in the manual, "But in its passing, the lore was often distorted or lost altogether." ALttP is supposed to happen thousands of years after OoT so it's understandable that the story of the Imprisoning War would become distorted in certain areas. Moving on.  

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I do not know what Ganon wished for from the Triforce. However, in time evil power began to flow from the Golden Land and greedy men were drawn there to become members of Ganon's army. Black clouds permanently darkened the sky, and many disasters beset Hyrule. The lord of Hyrule sent for the Seven Wise Men and the Knights Of Hyrule, and ordered them to seal the entrance to the Golden Land.
Although none of this is shown in Ocarina that can be explained because the game is focused on Link and is taken from his perspective. After all he would be trapped in the Chamber of Sages for the next seven years while all of this would be happening.

Quote

The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good and evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them. Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could wield it. As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle.
This whole thing about the Master Sword is what gets people. First of all it says that the Seven Wise Men searched for someone to use it. Keeping in mind the whole thing about legends getting distorted this is still technically true because Link was trapped in the Chambers of Sages in sleep for seven years. During those seven years Rauru (one of the Seven Wise Men) would be waiting for Link to age so that he could wield the Master Sword. Technically he was searching for a valiant person because young Link could not wield the sword.

So why does it say that the Master Sword was made after Ganon took the Triforce while in OoT it had apparently been made ages before? Well if you think about it no one would have seen the Master Sword due to it being locked up in that room (forgot what it was called). The majority of people probably didn't even know about it till the events of OoT so it's understandable that some people would think the sword wasn't made till that time.  

Finally Ganondorf obviously attacks Hyrule Castle once he leaves the Sacred Realm in OoT.

Quote

The wise men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde.

The Knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously many a brave soul was lost that day, However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal ganon in the Golden land. All of Hyrule rejoiced at the victory that upheld peace and order over Ganon's evil and chaos. This war, which had claimed many lives, became known as the Imprisoning War in stories told in later centuries.
So why does it say Knights when it was Link that helped the Sages? Well throughout many of the Zelda games Link is referred to as being the descendant of Knights and being a Knight himself. I think what happened here is that as the story was passed down over the ages people found it less and less believable that a single Knight could hold off Ganon so that the Sages could seal him so they turned Knight into Knights. Other wise this is pretty much exactly what happens at the end of OoT. Link battles Ganon until he weakens him enough so that the Sages can trap him in the Sacred Realm or Golden Land.

Any questions?
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Offline Gamefreak

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2003, 11:07:59 PM »
Yes I have a question. Why did you spend like 3 hours or whatever writing that post? The reason I ask this is because while you toiled away nerdily, hunched over your LTTP manual, I wrote a post which says the same thing as your post in far less words

Anyway, read my post and agree with it, since I think you missed it

Offline Gibdo Master

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2003, 11:15:00 PM »
I wanted to make a comment about people saying that Miyamoto is trying to hold the series together. Honestly I don't think Miyamoto gives a hoot about the story. He only cares about the game play aspect and I believe this has become more and more the case as he has less and less direct influence on the development of the games.

The only person in my opinion that cares about the story line is Aonuma (Wind Waker director). In fact if you look back at those interviews with Aonuma and Miyamoto about Wind Waker every question that dealt with the Zelda story line was answered by Aonuma not Miyamoto. Miyamoto simply doesn't care about the story. Also in a Japanese exclusive interview about Wind Waker (I think it was one of those that came with the Japanese exclusive Wind Waker stuff) Aonuma had commented that he realizes that the Zelda story line has many plot holes and hopes to fix these in later games. Miyamoto made a comment on what Aonuma said though that seemed like he didn't feel there was any problem with the story line which anyone who has ever tried to piece it together knows isn't the case.  
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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2003, 11:22:51 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Gamefreak
Yes I have a question. Why did you spend like 3 hours or whatever writing that post? The reason I ask this is because while you toiled away nerdily, hunched over your LTTP manual, I wrote a post which says the same thing as your post in far less words

Anyway, read my post and agree with it, since I think you missed it
Yeah, you posted yours while I was typing mine up. Just so I don't come off as to nerdy I copied and pasted the manual bits from someone else's toiling work. It's not that hard to find typed up game manuals on the net.

Mine does have little bit of value over yours since I addressed the Master Sword thing but other wise I did just waste a big chunk of my sleep time on that post.

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Offline Gamefreak

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RE: OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2003, 12:49:19 AM »
Yeah I did miss the Master Sword bit...because I didn't remember that at all I haven't read the LTTP manual for years and years and years, but I do remember it pretty well...

Offline mouse_clicker

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2003, 10:56:24 AM »
Quote

So why does it say Knights when it was Link that helped the Sages? Well throughout many of the Zelda games Link is referred to as being the descendant of Knights and being a Knight himself. I think what happened here is that as the story was passed down over the ages people found it less and less believable that a single Knight could hold off Ganon so that the Sages could seal him so they turned Knight into Knights. Other wise this is pretty much exactly what happens at the end of OoT. Link battles Ganon until he weakens him enough so that the Sages can trap him in the Sacred Realm or Golden Land.


Then why in Wind Waker is it clear that they revere Link as the one that defeated Ganondorf? He even has a statue erected to him in Hyrule Castle. Everything from LttP's instruction manual doesn't HAVE to fit perfectly- it's perfectly plausible that the story was simply changed in OoT to be more epic and the story abotu the Knights aiding the Sages doesn't hold true anymore. Besides, people like stories of one man facing an immense evil rather than a group of men facing it- it's much easier for people to associate themselves with the hero and hence makes the legend much more popular. Even ni Wind Waker all the boys pretended they were Link.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2003, 11:12:28 AM »
Well just like in real-life myths and legends, this one could be misconstrued(aka: twisted, changed) over the period of millenia that the series takes place, so it may be most accurate to assume OoT is the correct form of the legend(cause it came first).
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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2003, 05:12:55 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Then why in Wind Waker is it clear that they revere Link as the one that defeated Ganondorf? He even has a statue erected to him in Hyrule Castle. Everything from LttP's instruction manual doesn't HAVE to fit perfectly- it's perfectly plausible that the story was simply changed in OoT to be more epic and the story abotu the Knights aiding the Sages doesn't hold true anymore. Besides, people like stories of one man facing an immense evil rather than a group of men facing it- it's much easier for people to associate themselves with the hero and hence makes the legend much more popular. Even ni Wind Waker all the boys pretended they were Link.


Because people revered the Hero of Time before the flood of Wind Waker happened. After that most of the people didn't even know about the legend or that there had even been a flood. Also that statue you talk about was destroyed not to mention the rest of Hyrule. The Hyrule in ALttP is a different one. It's the one that Link and Tetra will find so it makes even more sense that the details of the Imprisoning War would be lost and distorted.  
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Offline mouse_clicker

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2003, 05:30:18 PM »
Of course people still remembered the Hero of Time after Hyrule was flooded- that was the whole basis for the Link in WW getting his green tunic. It says clearly in the game that at their coming of age the boys would be garbed in the same green attire as Link. The flood didn't wipe out the people's memories of Link.
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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2003, 07:21:55 PM »
Yes, but that was tradition was practiced only on that island. Even they had a fairly distorted view of what happened though. Tetra knew as well but it just came off to me that the general population were clueless.  
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Offline Hostile Creation

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2003, 04:51:26 PM »
I had this awesome post a while ago that would have blown your pants off and made you regret ever arguing with me, but the darned board messed up and no matter what the post didn't go through.  And I don't feel like typing it again.  Sorry.
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Offline Gibdo Master

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OoT IS about the Imprisoning War
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2003, 06:39:27 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
And I don't feel like typing it again.
Thank you so much.

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