Author Topic: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread  (Read 13671 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« on: August 06, 2011, 06:20:45 PM »
This is the place to talk about Killer 7 and have a chance to have your comment read on an upcoming episode of Radio Free Nintendo.


***NOTE: Please do not use this space to celebrate or complain about the poll results. You can do that in the poll thread. This thread is for actual discussion of the game itself.***
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 07:39:20 PM »
sweet, I'll play this as soon as I get back from work (nightshift! yay)

Offline Ceric

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 08:11:18 PM »
I have obtained the only copy I could find... and it was for PS2.  Probably start this later in the week.
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 09:50:36 AM »
Right after booting this game up I'm reminded at how fucking creepy this game is right off that bat, damn that laughter! But before I get started I want to bring your attention to this analysis of the Killer 7 plot because even though its spoilerific, lets be honest here: if you're curious to know what the plot is even about that's pretty much the only way its going to make sense (and you'll probably realize why most of us never even stood a chance at understanding the plot), even still SUDA 51 likes to mindfuck, which is why this game is so crazy to begin with.

Aside from the utterly insane vibe (moon!) that this game gives off which I find oddly appealing, this game sports a very unique artstyle, these two things got me to buy this game at first. I mean Iwazaru looks like a fetishist masochist in that get up, there's a Mexican who's special ability is to pick locks and jump really high and Con's smith's critical hit taunt is hilarious, espesally if you're in a room full of smiles and get sucessive crits anyways, the point is: this game is batshit crazy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

anyways, rest assured RFN crew as someone who voted for this game I'll hold up my end of the bargain and play along with you guys.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 10:34:34 PM by Lithium »

Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 03:52:56 PM »
Hey all, I have been listing to the podcast and creeping around the site for over a year now and I decided I should probably start participating.
I voted for Killer 7 because I have had it laying around my house for a while but I never really played it.  I bought it because I really enjoyed the No More Heroes franchise.  It seems the common thread of all Suda 51’s games is a focus on style to the point the gameplay often suffers.
Anyway my first impression of the game is that it is an old school adventure game masked behind layers of insanity. I like the overall style of the game but the shooting mechanic could use some work.
I will work on playing some more of this game and post more thoughts as they come to me. Thanks!

Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 04:55:28 PM »
Ok, so my wife saw me playing Killer 7 and she asked me 'Why does it look like 1998 up in here?"

Offline Ceric

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 05:10:14 PM »
Ok, so my wife saw me playing Killer 7 and she asked me 'Why does it look like 1998 up in here?"
lol
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Offline noname2200

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 07:27:36 PM »
Ok, so my wife saw me playing Killer 7 and she asked me 'Why does it look like 1998 up in here?"

Your wife is awesome.

Anyways, I'm having trouble finding a copy of the Gamecube version (lost my PS2 a few weeks ago...) for a reasonable price. I hope I can find a copy soon.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 07:33:25 PM »
GameStop has the GameCube version for $5.99: http://www.gamestop.com/gc/games/killer-7/33104
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Offline noname2200

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 07:45:48 PM »
GameStop has the GameCube version for $5.99: http://www.gamestop.com/gc/games/killer-7/33104

Eeeeeexcellent...Thanks!

Offline leahsdad

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 12:56:05 AM »
You know, the after the 15th time in as many minutes of gameplay that I heard Iwazaru say "We're in a tight spot!" I realized he wasn't talking about the situation in the game.  He's talking about trying to understand what the hell is going on.

I've only played about 20 minutes or so, up to what I'm guessing is the first boss in the parking garage.  No More Heroes seems tame compared to this game.

This will be an interesting experience.
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 05:30:51 AM »
The alternate reality of Killer 7

 the 2 sections below are copied from here I did not write any of the next 2 sections, but im posting it here for the sake of conversation and because this guy explains it better than I can all I did was try to remove spoilers and cut it down into digestible chunks.

The Yakumo

Quote
the Yakumo is a text which was created by 7 Japanese founders(politicians) in the past. The Yakumo (text) is said to have a power to change the world.

During his brief scene, in SUNSET, Toru Fukushima described the Yakumo as a policy that was created by the Union-Seven. The contents of the Yakumo are implied to be able to propel a nation toward total domination of the world--or, at least, primary control.  Further, this policy may have been developed strictly for Japanese execution, but (as Fukushima admits) Japan is too weak to implement it on her own.

Another historical departure might be useful, now. Japanese foreign policy was established early in the second millenium of the Christian calendar as "Hakko Ichiu." The ideology holds that the Japanese emperor is not merely the sovereign authority over the Japanese people, but over all people of all races. The self-righteousness of their cultural self-perception was manipulated easily during the Second World War by Japanese Emperor Hirohiko (also a high Shinto priest who very much believed in his own deity) into justification for all types of nationalistic aggression. Translated, the foreign policy aims to bring "all the eight corners of the world under the roof of Japan."

The U.N party

Quote
"When I first played Killer7, my impulse was to regard the phrase "U. N. Party" as indicative of the United Nations' presence in the fictional universe. However, the U. N. Party is not the United Nations.

During his brief scene at the start of SUNSET PART TWO, Kurahashi says that all of the U. N. Party's efforts will be destroyed, and that they have been in motion for "65 years" since Japan's American occupation at the end of World War II. Most historical resources seem to agree that Japan's struggle after World War II involved two major ideological forces: the liberal, individualistic ideas that wanted to depart from Japan's culturally historical means of thinking and acting-- and the conservative, collectivistic ideas that wanted to return the government to the control of an oligarchic shadow- government and the pursuit of Shinto and Bushido ideals.

we may conclude that the Yakumo--as a governmental policy developed by the Union-Seven- is enmeshed in conservative Japanese ideals. The U. N. Party comes from this cultural tradition. seems to be a renovated form of "Hakko Ichiu."

Further, this policy may have been developed strictly for Japanese execution, but (as Fukushima admits) Japan is too weak to implement it on her own.

 the 2 sections above are copied from here I did not write any of the last 2 sections, but im posting it here for the sake of conversation and because this guy explains it better than I can all I did was try to remove spoilers and cut it down into digestible chunks.

--------------------------------------

Sunset Part 1


the following is my interpretation of the plot so far, who knows i could be wrong but here's what makes sense to me:

At present The U.N party rules over Japan, Fukushima could either be the mediator between the Governing body of the U.N Party in Japan and U.N Party agents/spies in the United States. or He could be the Leader of the U.N Party I'm not 100% sure. Because of Fukushima's political clout he is the only one who can stage negotciations with the United States in order to convince them to intercept the ICBMs launched toward Japan. However Mills, the killer 7's contact with the USA has given them a contract to kill Toru Fukushima who resides in the Japanese resturaunt guarded by smiles.

Travis tells you that you are not the only one after Fukushima, he posits that the Liberal party of Japan sent somone over  in order to assinate Fukushima, as we will know later it's because the Liberal party of Japan wants to obtain the Yakumo from the U.N party

Toru Fukushima's importance:

As I have stated before, Fukushima holds the key to incepting those missles. The reason that Japan cant intercept the missles themselves is because as Travis tells you after you kill the duplicator smile:

Quote from: Travis
Smith, have a minute to share?  It could open your eyes. Japan doesn't have its own defense system.  It's survival is contingent on the United States.  But as far as the homeland is concerned, Japan is extra baggage.  Its usefulness as an ally is long past.  Straight up, it ain't worth saving, you see?  That's reality for you.  So, chief, you still gonna do it?  You know what is meant by fireworks?  They're missiles.  The explosion that occurs when missiles collide . . . . Well, sure, that's a beautiful sight indeed!  But you'll only see it if the defense system is activated
(fireworks a reference to first cutscene in Sunset)

What seems to be hapening is that Fukushima might hand over the Yakumo to the United States in exchange for saving Japan. If Fukushima dies before he can negociate with the United States it;s all over. The reason I think that the killer 7 was hired to kill Fukushina is to make sure Japan goes under, as travis says Japan isnt worth protecting anymore and the USA may be using this crisis to their advantage in order to get rid of dead weight. The Liberal party of Japan is simutaneously going after Fukushima in order to gain the Yakumo and use it for their own ends.

Quote from: Travis
Straight up, he's desperate.  Fukushima's only ace in the hole is the Yakumo.  The secret conference of the U.S.-Japan Territory Talks held at the Kaku Building tomorrow represents the time limit.  The Yakumo will determine whether the 'fireworks' launch.  It's Fukushima's offering to the gods.  What's your move, chief?  Kill him and sink Japan?  Or let him live and get the Yakumo.  The Yakumo is dangerous.  It will allow the United States to rule the world.  The course of humankind is in your hands, chief.

travis tells you that secret talks are to be held at the KAKU building (this will come up later on in killer 7)

"kill him and sink Japan or let him live and get the Yakumo" <--- this basically summarizes what Sunset part 1 is about.

When Harman meets Fukushima he talks about becoming an artechtect, I interpret that to mean that Fukushima looks to be a fervent nationalist bent on reliving the days of the Japanese empire by using the Yakumo. I bet the caller was Kun-Lan who probably recruited Fukushima to create the U.N party in order to realse utilization of the Yakumo. However he thinks that japan is too weak to do it on it's own
that's irrelevant now that Kisugi (who we now know was the assasin for the Liberal party) has killed Fukushima. It looks like the liberals don't know about the missles otherwise they wouldn't have killed him i bet.

Quote from: Travis
She's hottie, ain't she?  What a waste, though.  The last fruitless attempt at resistance by the Liberal Party.
Using a woman as a weapon?  That doesn't bode well for them.  The kind of thing only an inept party would resort to.  Japanese politicians are rotten to the core.  Smith, there's no sex discrimination here.  Don't hesitate.  Take her out like the rest of 'em!

^^^
Travis spells it out for you later.
I cant make out what Kisugi said because the cutscenes seem to be mixed poorly and the fire in the backround is louder than her voice.

Sunset: part 1 complete

---------------------

Random thoughts:

the Heaven Smile
Given the themes of the game the smiles are likely allusions to Japanese Kamikaze fighters rather than Islamic terrorists as one might be tempted to interpret

The Gameplay of Killer 7

I think SUDA 51 made the game on rails because he wanted to use cinematography techniques for the game's camera. He probably thought that on rails was the way to go to pull it off considering how the only other game I can think of at the top of my head that does this is the resident evil series, and we all know how bad the controls are in that game, that could be Shinji Mikami's advice since he worked on the resident evil games (Mikami Colaborated with SUDA 51 to make killer 7)

^
thats purely speculation on my part

to be honest i doubt the gameplay of killer 7 would be hated by some if it was realsed as a Wii on-rails shooter game instead of on the gamecube with a regular controller but the Wii didn't exist then obviously, which is why I'm a little dissapointed there was no Wii re-release like there was for Resi 4. I definately would have bought it haha

gameplay tips:

to get the odd engraving you have to use the water ring on the plant in the empty room with the painting (where all those rolling smiles are before harmans room)

when you get to the part with the fungshui map turn right, on the south house close the doors so that the red pheonix is shown and leave the rest open, at the east house close the doors so the azure dragon is showing, north house the black warrior (the turtle thing) at west house the lion.

make sure at every house you only close one of the doors and leave the rest open solve the puzzle to get the soul shell

-kid at the vinculum(sp?) gate: "The next monster is super huge in a certain spot!" <--lol
he tries to trick you by telling you to not hit him in the large spot but that's exactly what you should do, use Kaede to snipe the smile. I think if you miss he will teleport in front of you and you will die instantly.

-the boss for sunset part 1:

choose con smith and unload on her, whether or not you beat the boss depends on who lands more hits on each other when the timer ends. I'm not a huge fan of this boss since it's super simple but there you go.

-talk to Travis when you can, he;s basically the political comentator of the game and talks about the plot.

----
God damn that was alot of work, can't promise i'll go that indepth every time i post XD
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:10:03 AM by Lithium »

Offline Soren

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 07:13:19 AM »
"We're in a tight spot" indeed, sir.

The shooting mechanic is so clumsy, it somewhat ruins the joy you would have in killing all of the Heaven Smile. Hitting their weak spot is a thrill, but the aiming is so spotty it's frustrating.
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Offline leahsdad

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 12:14:46 PM »
Quote
Hitting their weak spot is a thrill, but the aiming is so spotty it's frustrating.




Excuse me if I'm asking questions that everyone already know the answers to, but I've decided to go into this game as blind as possible.  I found a review written by Cassamasina back in the day, but after reading 1 paragraph I closed it, because I want to go into this fresh.


With that said, I'm guessing the weak spot is the white/yellowish bubbly growth?  Man, those are hard to hit.  And it's not because the target's too small or I suck at these games (My aiming is quite good, to be honest, honed by years of FPS's).  The aiming on this game sucks though.  I'm glad it wasn't just me.
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Oh yeah, I know I have 2 sealed copies of that game.   1 is for trading.  But people who collect Amiibos?  They really have a problem!

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 12:50:38 PM »
Power: Increases the power of your shots,
Speed: Increases the speed (running, reloading, firing) of the character,

Waver:
Increases the stability of your aiming (very important for Kaede)
Critical: Increases the likelihood of critical weakspot shots

Invisible:(Kevin only): Increases the time you can stay invisible from about 15 seconds to about 40 seconds in 5 second increments.
Range: (Mask only): Increases the effective range of Masks grenade launchers.

You guys will probably want to put all of your Thick blood to upgrading Critical and Waver then.

You'll get Thick blood by getting critical hits, yeah the weakspot is the yellow/white growth thing, you can upgrade your characters by depositing thick blood to the surgeon in the television in Harman's room. but after you put in X amount of blood the machine will break. It will also break if you leave the level as well so if you're interested in getting as much blood as possible in the stage make sure you break it before the stage ends.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:59:32 PM by Lithium »

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 02:47:24 PM »
Ok, so my wife saw me playing Killer 7 and she asked me 'Why does it look like 1998 up in here?"
Ahahahahahaha!  ;D That's awesome!
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 08:21:31 PM »
Looks like this game doesn't show up on eBay often, so it may be difficult to get a copy of it. How long will this discussion be open for?

Offline marty

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 08:55:04 PM »
If someone wants to paypal me for an envelope and shipping charges, I'll gladly send you my copy. 

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 10:21:50 PM »
If you're a GameFly member, they have the GC version (low availability) and PS2 version (available now) for rent.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 10:54:42 PM »
LOL, guess GameStop only had a few copies of the GCN version since it was available when I posted the link but is now out. They still have the PS2 version for $4.99 used or $9.99 new (http://www.gamestop.com/ps2/games/killer-7/33106) though.
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Offline Olimar77

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2011, 05:26:41 AM »
I bought my copy through Glyde on Sunday night. I just checked their website and there are copies still available. It usually takes from 5 to 7 days to receive, though. I'm looking forward to playing.

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2011, 06:50:43 AM »
Just finished Sunset part 2, I was going to do another epic post but considering the work/conservation ratio of my last post it isn't worth it haha

I'm far too lazy to write something like that every time. However at least it got across the reason that I like this game (aside from the utter insanity of it all): the political intrigue. That stuff is awesome and we don't see enough of that in videogames. Another reason why I seem to be in the minority (at least in these forums) in liking this game is because it's the one of a handful of non-indie games I can think of that has the guts to try something way out there. Yahtzee describes this better in a way only Yahtzee can in his no more heroes review.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:48:47 PM by Lithium »

Offline oohhboy

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2011, 09:22:38 AM »
If there is someone in Auckland who wants to play Killer 7, I would be happy to loan out my copy to them. However like the majority of my GC games, it is US NTSC and unless you have and Japanese/American cube/older Wii, you will need freeloader.

If you have a 3DS game to counter-loan that is not Shadow Wars, all the better.

PM me to make arrangements.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2011, 01:05:20 PM »
Instead of digging Killer 7 out again I bought a cheap copy of Flower Sun and Rain but since that's Suda51 too it counts, right?


As for deciphering plots, I'm having my share of that with EYE at the moment, made all the better as nobody has found the "real ending" to the game yet.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 01:07:41 PM by KDR_11k »

Offline rebonack

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2011, 05:37:43 PM »
I didn't vote for Killer7 (in fact I didn't vote at all, since I've just registered), but I was hoping it would win. I've owned the game for years now, and never played further than the first level, so I'm looking forward to playing along with you guys.

Since Jonny was worried that people who voted for Killer7 wouldn't play along, can I cancel one of them out?

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 07:38:40 PM »
I didn't vote for Killer7 (in fact I didn't vote at all, since I've just registered), but I was hoping it would win. I've owned the game for years now, and never played further than the first level, so I'm looking forward to playing along with you guys.

Since Jonny was worried that people who voted for Killer7 wouldn't play along, can I cancel one of them out?

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with you joining in, so the more the merrier :)

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2011, 09:58:39 PM »
Don't get me wrong; everyone is very welcome to discuss the game here. I was just imploring (somewhat jokingly) that people who did vote for the game actually play along with us, as a way of taking responsibility for their choice in the poll.
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Offline rebonack

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2011, 02:04:01 PM »
I was mostly just perpetuating the joke. :p (And letting you know that I'm definitely going to be playing along.)

There goes my chance at making a first impression!

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2011, 12:39:44 PM »
Sunset Part 2

I know i said I wasn't going to make another post like this but I couldnt just leave this story arc half done! I'll try to refrain myself until the game's completion at least haha

the players:


Kenjiro Matsuoka (aka: Matsuken)

the following quote is from that plot analysis faq* i've mentioned before

Quote
Matsuken was a lower, younger member of the U. N. Party, until
he became frustrated with the seeming ineptitude of his party
elders. He shot them--Akiba and Kurahashi--and prepared to shoot
himself. However, Kun Lan touched him and "adopted" him with
the "Hand of God."

Matsuken represents the violent anger in Japanese culture
toward America, due in large part to the destruction of Hiroshima
and Nagasaki with the atomic bombs.
After becoming "adopted" by Kun Lan, Matsuken takes the reins of the U. N. Party

Matsuken is a young idealist who wishes to change the world in Japan's favour by seeing the rise of the Japanese empire once again. (like the U.N party itself, he's a radical conservative/traditionalist)

minor players:

Kun-lan

Kun-lan looks like he's the personification of the east and eastern ideals (and Harman is his western counter-part). However since this is SUDA 51 we're tallking about here I'm not even sure thats right since when you get to the 2nd to last story arc, "smile" everything goes nutters, you think this is weird, just you wait. :D

Akiba and Kurahashi

Two elder leaders/figures of the U.N party, Travis describes them as "a couple of old corrupt men. the incarnation of greed. Straight up, they're sly old foxes." on the rooftop



Depaul
A spy/hitman working for the International Ethics Commitee, who was the Sushi chef in Sunset part 1, thats about all we learn about him now.
----------------------------

Hiro Kasai is a member of the Liberal party of Japan (official opposition party) and informed Garcian of the talks held at the KAKU building, Mills has agreed to send us over.

Travis does a more hands on job at disecting the story for us this stage, there isnt much for me to add if we're extrapolating from Sunset part 1:

Quote from: Travis
"How's this for a stuffy atmosphere?  This is the
Information Terminal Central, where the elites of the world
gather.  While the backroom movers and shakers stared each
other down, the debate heated up over the subject of the
disposal of Japan.  Not a single country argued in her
favor.  The Japanese territory would be a prize to any
neighboring country.  Straight up, Japan is on her own."

Quote from: Travis
"You wanna hear something?  I'll tell you straight up,
okay?  Basically, these talks are a war of proxy for the
owner, Fukushima.  But the attendees are 3rd-rate
bureaucrats.  And when the prey is sub-par, so are the
assassins.  What a charade.  The US has given up on the
talks.  Fukushima was the backbone of the UN Party.  But
now the UN Party is a toothless organization.  These talks
will determine the fate of Japan."

given what we know from Sunset part 1 The last two quotes gives us both motives as to why the international comunity is for the most part willing t let Japan take the fall and the outcome of Fukushima's assassination. Given that, it seems unlikely that the Liberal party of Japan knew about the missles, Travis alludes to one of the upcoming bosses in this stage.

Quote from: Travis
"Beware of the basement!  A hitman has already infiltrated. 
The suave dude, DePaul, who was at the restaurant, is a spy
from the International Ethics Committee.  Their goal is to
disrupt the final talks between the U.S. and Japan. 
They're planing a secret meeting somewhere in this
building.  By interrupting the talks, they hope to delay
the sinking of Japan.  Take him out, Smith.  Take him out."

If you talked to Iwazaru during the Fungshui puzzle in one of the houses back in sunset part 1, he warns you about the sushi chef and says there's somthing suspicious about him, turn out he was there on behalf of the I.E.C (as a spy)

so after we take Depaul out we see the talks at the KAKU building fall apart, over a game of Majhong. What they're doing playing Majong when they should be negotiating is lost on me but obviously it has some symbollic significance, that too is lost on me since I don't know the rules to that game. If i had to guess I'd say that the mahjong game at the kaku building were an analogy for how the talks as a whole turned out. Maybe Japan pulled a fast one on the US and we'll see things turn out in their favour? I don't know that''s just baseless speculation on my part. The only thing I was able to grasp from that scene is that Monkeys refers to the Japanese/japan and Dogs refer to the United states/Americans.

Quote from: Travis
"The talks broke down.  All according to plan, I guess. 
Now the skies will rain on Japan for sure.  But straight
up, it doesn't add up.  Why doesn't the US destroy the UN
Party?  Why do they let them live?  Somebody is pulling
strings.  Could it be a Fukushima adherent?  Kenjiro
Matsuoka is the Director of the Central Management Office. 
Or Matsuken for short.  Can he pick up where Fukushima left
off?  Can this dude lead Japan?"

I take this to mean that Travis is refering to U.N party agents working within the USA, with Matsuken at the helm. (again, probably has to do with Matsuken's scene at the opening of sunset part 2) Matsuken seems to be very shrewd in the game of politics.

As we walk back from the negotiation table and back onto the hallway Depaul's ghost tells us that Matsuken is in posesion of the Yakumo (again, has somthing to do with the opening scene with Kun-lan i bet)  and tells us that this whole ordeal will not come to an end until he's dealt with.

 All that's left is to face the Akiba and Kurahasi smiles. Suda 51 forces you to make assumptions throughout the course of killer 7, and I think the implyed reasoning these two didn't "die" in their short debut in this stage's opening is because being recruited by Kun-lan requires being converted into a smile. the kid explains to you on the way to the boss fight the only way these characters will die is if they have their brains smashed in.

after the fight it's time for the last cutscene of this story arc. It looks like those missiles were launched within the USA, so were the missles intercepted in the end? honestly i'm not sure, thats what i would have thought if it weren't for Garcian's cryptic comment at the end. I'd have to agree with Mills here: "OK now you're not helping!"

promise of 30 years ago?

I'm going to refer to that plot analysis faq* i've mentioned before since I wouldn't have been able to come up with this myself:

Quote
I'd like to explain what I think was meant by "the promise made 30 years ago." Since Garcian delivers the quoted words in 2010, he indicates that the promise was made in 1980. I have researched lightly Japanese-American diplomatic relationships during 1980, and I discovered nothing significant. However, a
significant occasion occurs in 1983, when President Reagan addressed the Japanese legislative assembly (the Diet). The contents of his address seem to relate most closely with the events of Killer7, and I think that it may be the "promise" alluded to in the game.

I will highlight some of Reagan's remarks, and comment on
their relevance to the game. You can read the entire text of
the speech here:

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1983/111183a.htm

The outward, visible alternative political history of Killer7 starts in 1998, I think. Almost everything before 1998, in real political history, can be considered relevant to the
game.

Reagan's address to the legislature--the Diet--was the first formal address given by an American, to a Japanese political group, in a very long time. It marked a new understanding of Japanese-American relationships. The diplomatic interests are clear in Reagan's speech: "The bonds of friendship which unite us are even greater than the ocean which divides us." And, later: "Japan will not have to bear the burden of defending freedom alone. America is your partner. We will bear that
burden together."

As well, the speech emphasizes the parallel development of Japan and the United States: "In 6 years you will celebrate your 100th anniversary of representative government in Japan, just as we will celebrate the birth of our own Congress. I bring you the best wishes and heartfelt greetings from your American counterparts, the Congress of the United States." Taken in the context of the fictional history of Killer7, some of Reagan's remarks foreshadow the dissolution of airlines and
commerce, in the interest of retarding terrorism: "Our two great nations, working with others, must preserve the values and freedoms out societies have struggled so hard to achieve. Nor should our partnership for peace, prosperity, and freedom be considered a quest for competing goals. We cannot prosper unless we are secure, and we cannot be secure unless we are free." It is worth noting that the siezure of airlines, as a way of retarding terrorism, was given historical precedent
well before September 11, 2001; a while before Reagan's speech to the Diet, over the Sea of Japan, 269 people were killed when a Japanese civilian airplane was shot down.

Reagan remarks upon one of the hottest issues of the times, which we see reach a half-conclusion in "the missile shows": "Arms control must mean arms reductions. America is doing its part. As I pledged to the United Nations less than 2 months ago, the United States will accept any equitable, verifiable agreement that stabilizes forces at lower levels than currently exist. We want significant reductions, and we're willing to compromise."

Even the Japanese "occupation" of the American government in Killer7 is foreshadowed. Reagan comments upon the Japanese economy's strengths, over the United States', and says:
"Sometimes I wonder if we shouldn't further our friendship by sending our Congress here and you coming over and occupying our Capitol Building for a while."


I believe that the political circumstances in Killer7 are science-fiction extrapolations of Japanese-American diplomatic relations, as they are communicated in Reagan's speech. I wrote that I thought that Hulbert's cassettes were recorded in 2000, but now I change my mind. I think that they are recorded in 1996. I think it more probable that electoral suspicion would arise in a president who was so interested in pursuing the goals of global disarmament, that he would dissolve some
of the sovereignty that separates America from Japan.

^
personally I think the author of this quoted plot analysis might be reaching here, either that or SUDA 51 is just running with this idea and taking it into wacky conclusions, both are just as likely haha. Either way, I'll post it here to see what you guys think.

*I dont nescesarly agree with everything in that plot analysis faq but it's the most through and interesting interpretation i've come across.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:17:08 PM by Lithium »

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 06:35:41 AM »
i'm just going to double post since no one has posted in a few days

Cloudman

Cloudman is probably one of the wackiest chapters in killer 7, all you really need to see to know this is the opening video of this chapter (and something else right after) since i'm pretty sure that most of my posts so far fall into the tl;dr category i'll boil this down to a single sentence: Cloudman shows you the power of the Yakumo, Ulmeyda is just an average joe who got a slice of the yakumo but with it was able to run a city full of his cult followers.

Audio

You know i've talked up a storm about the plot and mentioned the gameplay before but i havent talked about the audio of killer 7.

This game features a cast of talented voice actors which considering how obscure and low budget this game is is pretty suprising, check out the imdb page for killer 7 for more. (fun fact: harman's voice actor was in the A-Team as Murdock and Tara Strong, who voices Kaede smith is Twilight Sparkle in My little pony: friendship is magic)

Masafumi Takada is this game's composer and you may be suprised to know that he also worked on smash bros as one of the many composers that colaborated on the game's soundtrack. Takada did Ending(Yoshi's story), Lip's theme (panel de pon), Marionation gear and Shin onigashima theme

Takada seems to have followed SUDA 51 around for his games, I think he was the composer for all (if not most) of his published games so far. There isnt much for me to say that isnt allready in his wikipedia page so check it out if you're interested. Those who listen to radio trivia might have allready listened to some of the songs in killer 7 since it was featured in a past episode (although i cant remember the episode number)

anyways words cant really do a good job at describing this sort of thing so i'll just list off my favourites from this game:

1)Sweet Blue flag
2)Rave on (featured in Radio Trivia)
3)A fierce good fight
4)Sweet Relief

killer 7 has an eclectic soundtrack that ranges from pumping techno music, to laid back and classy to traditional Japanese and ambient music that I cant really give it justice in a short post like this. If you're interested, you can listen to the entire soundtrack here.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 11:43:45 AM by Lithium »

Offline mr_lakitu

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2011, 03:26:10 PM »
Where as most David Lynch movies are more of an art to admire than your typical popcorn flicks, I think Killer 7 is itself best watched while someone else has an awful time playing it. I just wish I hadn't been that someone else each time. It's not a bad game, just a frustrating experience from start to finish. I feel like if it was released as a Summer Of Arcade title on XBLA today it would be lapped up. There's no denying though there's just something about K7..



Anyone else find that Deadly Premonition has a lot of the same traits? Humour, awful controls and overall oddballness? (Yes I just made up a word).


Oh and p.s edit: I didn't vote for anything. I just like demolishing my soul apparently.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 03:28:39 PM by mr_lakitu »
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2011, 08:25:11 PM »
I went to a local GameStop searching for this game, the website said that location had a copy but they actually didn't when I went there. :(

The search continues...

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 08:58:38 PM »
It's possible someone bought the game, I don't think the website updates right away (not sure how long it takes between a game being sold and the website being updated).
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »

Anyone else find that Deadly Premonition has a lot of the same traits? Humour, awful controls and overall oddballness? (Yes I just made up a word).

I haven't played Deadly premonition before but after watching some videos of it I think I have to now XD
...So says Mr.Stewart.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 09:08:53 PM by Lithium »

Offline Mop it up

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2011, 09:16:05 PM »
It's possible someone bought the game, I don't think the website updates right away (not sure how long it takes between a game being sold and the website being updated).
It's certainly possible, but that was back on Saturday and the website still says they have a copy. And yes, it's possible someone traded in another one after I left, but the odds of that are ridiculously low.

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2011, 10:52:01 PM »
Yeah...it sounds like that Gamestop hasn't updated it's Gamecube database in a while.  I've had a much harder time lately finding a local Gamestop that still carries old Gamecube software at all.
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »
most of the time when i want to buy old games ebay is usually the best route, I also have a local run store that sells old games, maybe you have somthing like that in your area? Anyways worst case scenario if you cant get the game and still want to play i guess theres always the dolphin emulator (although i bet it'll run pretty slow). If you don't want to use that there's allways let's plays on youtube if theres litteraly no way to play the game.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:46:12 AM by Lithium »

Offline gojira

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 08:54:19 PM »
Critical: Increases the likelihood of critical weakspot shots

So even if you put the cross hairs directly on a critical spot there's still a chance you may miss?

I basically love/hate this game.  Well hate is kinda hard of a word.  But when all of a sudden there's a couple smiles right in front of you and one coming around a corner and you miss a shot you're screwed.  You can only take a couple of hits with most of the characters and you're dead.  True there's not much of a penalty for dying other than doing some backtracking.  But the combat is kinda all or nothing so I find dying to be rather frustrating. 

I bought this game when it launched.  I played until I got to that one room in the first level where's there's like three or four smiles.  I don't like dragging a cursor around on the screen in general.  I think that's a big reason why I've never cared for first person shooters.  After dying at that part a few times I put the game down and didn't pick it up again until a few years ago.  I played to the same spot and almost gave up, but I pushed through and generally enjoyed the game through to the end. 

And in the end is basically where I realized I did kinda love the game.  I loved the graphics, the voice/sound and music.  The crazy story was awesome.  I didn't really understand the whole political angle, but I loved the story of the assassins and their connection.  And getting criticals, especially mutliple criticals in a row is a great feeling.   

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 10:13:41 PM »
Critical: Increases the likelihood of critical weakspot shots

So even if you put the cross hairs directly on a critical spot there's still a chance you may miss?
no, upgrading your critical basically makes the hitbox bigger, so its really the other way around.

And in the end is basically where I realized I did kinda love the game.  I loved the graphics, the voice/sound and music.  The crazy story was awesome.  I didn't really understand the whole political angle, but I loved the story of the assassins and their connection.  And getting criticals, especially mutliple criticals in a row is a great feeling. 

Yeah this is pretty much the reason why I like killer 7 as well. I'd be lying if I said it was perfect, but everything comes together in a way where it ends up being worth more than the sum of it's parts. Anyways if you (meaning anyone reading this) like the backstory of the killer 7 you'll probably like encounter. I just completed that chapter today but I'm still thinking about what to write lol
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 04:21:53 PM by Lithium »

Offline Mop it up

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2011, 02:34:34 PM »
Yeah...it sounds like that Gamestop hasn't updated it's Gamecube database in a while.  I've had a much harder time lately finding a local Gamestop that still carries old Gamecube software at all.
Yeah, they usually have them tucked away in a corner and haphazardly thrown onto a shelf, so I've a feeling that they won't be around much longer. There's also one store near me which still has some GameCube games, but they don't have them on the shelves. If you haven't already, you can try asking if they have any when you don't see any.

This time, eBay doesn't have any cheap ones, or else I would go that route. There is another store fairly close that claims to have a copy, so I may check that one out this weekend. If that doesn't work out, I may give up on it... I apologize to the people who were against this game, I didn't realize it would be this difficult to find!

Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2011, 04:08:21 PM »
Encounter
(parts 1 and 2)

shows you the production side of smiles, we already know that lesser smiles can be made through smile duplicators, cloudman shows you that smiles can also be made from live humans through blood injection and encounter shows you that smiles can also be made from organs bought from the black market. Pedro and Curtis sell these organs harvested from kidnapped children, Pedro is in charge of orphan boys, Curtis Orphan girls. However Pedro betrayed Curtis.

Quote from: Travis (from part 2)
"You know what was behind the assault on the immigration office?  Pedro monopolized the market.  Before, the rule was the old man [Curtis Blackburn] had the girls, Pedro had the boys.  That is, until Pedro broke it.  There's a big business in orphans.  But there was a shortage in fresh organs.  Heaven Smile caused the birthrate to drop more rapidly.  Increases in contagious diseases started eating away at bodies.  And voila --- control of the market on boys was no longer enough.  That's why Pedro betrayed the old man.  Pedro can run but he can't hide."

Curtis blackburn then hunts down and kills Pedro and his familly and associates in the first cutscene to encounter part 2, but not without inflicting some psychological torture first.

The department of immigration

From what i could deduce from encounter is that the officials at the department of immigration are on the take, with the help of corrupt public officials Blackburn and Pedro are able to get a supply of young orphan children to harvest. Their pull seems to even extend to the politicians at the top in charge of immigration as well. Unrelated to the department of immigration they also kidnap children from amusement parks (the setting of encounter part 1)

Quote from: Travis
"This is all just hearsay, but the old man has some freaky hobbies.  Apparently, he's a black market organ trader.  And that's his 'public' face.  His private life?  He lives with orphans.  Straight up, all girl orphans.  And it's all sanctioned by the government.  Pedro is the middleman.  He controls the organ trade routes.  The ties from the self-defense days would appear strong.  Can you believe the nerve of it?"

now onto our next segment:

According to Travis

here i'll basically just pull quotes from Travis without adding much of anything to explain stuff. Iwazaru is the gameplay tips guy while Travis is the plot tips guy. His purpose is to basically to explain/give commentary on the plot of the game so it's very important to talk to him when you can if you care about the plot in this game.

Ayame Blackburn:

Quote from: Travis
"You're slipping, Smith.  How can the old man be giving you this much trouble?  Ayame, the machine gun girl with the crazy costume?  That's the kind of **** the old man gets off on.  He trained her himself.  You saw the the pile of bodies in the back, right?  That's the old man's true colors, shining through.  He only needs the girls . . . .  No use for the boys . . . . Some tragic ass ****, that's for sure."

It's worth noting that killer 7 uses anime figures/artstyles/tropes to show that somone is in collusion with heaven smiles,Kun-lan and/or Japan when somone doesnt have enough backstory to make that obvious. Ayame Blackburn is Curtis' newest pupil.

Curtis Blackburn and Dan Smith

I'll give point form notes to summarize this, the actual quotes are below:

-Dan Smith was mentored by Curtis blackburn in the Seattle self-defense force (their criminal syndicate/gang)
-Pedro was embezzleling money from the Seattle self defense force, and framed Dan Smith.
-Dan Smith aka "the hellion" (his nickname) took the fall and was killed by Curtis blackburn, now he's out for revenge.

Quote from: Travis
"There's quite a history between the old man [Curtis] and the Hellion.  The Hellion'll go ape **** if he so much as hears Curtis' name.  Even the chief wouldn't be able to hold him back.  Where did he get killed, anyway?  Chief, you recovered the body, no?  Tell me straight up -- just how much do you know?"

Quote from: Travis
"You sure don't show much interest in your pals.  Do these people even exist?  You're not one of those multiple personalities, are you?  The old man [Curtis] was the Hellion's mentor at the Seattle self-defense force.  Dan learned the ABC's of murder from the old man.  Dan was accused of betrayal, and taken out in an alley.  No trial for that one, baby!  Chief, you're the one who recovered the body, right?  But Pedro, who had connections to the self-defense force, was the man behind it all."

Quote from: Travis
Pedro siphoned capital to a foreign syndicate.  But then he tried to skim a little off the top.  The members of the Seattle self-defense force signed a pact of brotherhood in blood.  Traitors are punished by death.  The Hellion was framed by Pedro.  Pedro assigned Dan to launder the dirty money, and had the old man [Curtis] take Dan out, or so the story goes.

Quote from: Travis
What a pitiful pervert.  Doesn't deserve to live.  And Pedro?  He's probably a filthy bastard as well.  They're all the same.  Rats who profit by bartering in human lives. 
And you know who should settle this?  The Hellion.  Cause he's been around it from the start.  A fitting way to tie up old ends, right?

"I went to see the devil, now it's your turn"-Dan Smith


The last boss of encounter part 2 is probably my favourte second favourite in the game, as simple as it is it envokes the tension of the showdown at high noon in western flicks. whoever is quickest on the draw wins this one.

ps: is it me or does this forum usually screw up the text scripts? This isnt supposed to be bolded but the forum is insisting that it is haha
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 04:57:25 PM by Lithium »

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2011, 07:45:02 PM »
So I started playing Killer 7 (for the second time) and got about as far as before. I'm not as frustrated this time thanks to the great walkthrough by Matt Rorie at Gamespot (he has since gone to Screened and guests on Giant Bomb). I decided to just play the whole game via guide, as I once did for Metal Gear Solid -- it worked wonders then, hopefully will again. In both cases, these are games for which I didn't understand the mechanics or the most basic tactics, primarily because the games are very complex and don't explain those things whatsoever.

Killer 7 is especially notable for having a large menu of "tutorials" by Iwazaru that tell you nothing useful about how to play the game. The first time I played this game, I didn't know you could heal by using blood, or that there were two different kinds of blood, or that you could equip items, or that you lean new skills by upgrading a character's stats. Now that I am aware of these mechanics, I feel a lot more confident in playing the game.

Although I'm still on the first mission, I'm struck by how much the game is structured like an early Resident Evil (pre-RE4). You've got static camera angles, lumbering enemies, strictly asynchronous movement/shooting, abstract item puzzles, hard-to-read maps, etc. It's funny that Suda 51's latest game, Shadows of the Damned, has been compared so strongly to RE4. What I'm not seeing is much carry-over between Killer 7 and No More Heroes 1/2; I enjoyed the latter games, though more for their satisfying combat than for their goofy stories.
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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2011, 11:57:00 PM »
I'm too lazy for a big post so:
Alter Ego:

long story short: this is a game within a game and we were playing "killer 7 online" against Kun-Lan.
I'm not even going to pretend I understand the rest of this chapter.. I thought I had it until Love showed up and threw a wrench into everything. All i know is that the super-sentai/power ranger rip-offs are awesome and that was my favorite boss fight in the game because it was so fucking weird.

Smile: part 1

this ones a little more obvious, this is an origin's story to the killer 7 persona's as we know them in the game. game play wise, I don't like this part of smile, since you're literally doing the same thing over and over here.

story arcs

 Killer 7 is divided up into separate story arcs that in aggregate tell one story, which is why some of the chapters are divided into separate parts instead of just making a new chapter and why there is no continuity between chapters.

Angel: is the introduction, it introduces you to the main characters and the smiles.

Sunset: is the political backdrop for the events in Killer 7 (my favourite chapter if you couldn't already tell)

Cloudman: Shows you the power of the Yakumo. Ulmeyda is just an average joe who got a slice of the yakumo but with it was able to run a city full of his cult followers

Encounter: shows you the production side of smiles, we already know that lesser smiles can be made through smile duplicators, cloudman shows you that smiles can also be made from live humans through blood injection and encounter shows you that smiles can also be made from organs bought from the black market. Pedro and Curtis sell these organs harvested from kidnapped children.

Alter ego shows you the antithesis to killer 7, the ending suggest that it was all just a videogame and implies you were playing a game of Killer 7 Online against Kun-lan.
(So I'm pretty sure this is very similar to the "it was all just a dream" trope and nothing in this chapter to really that consequential.)

Smile: shows you the extent of the U.N party's infiltration into American politics/government (spies) and is also an origins story for the killer 7. This also serves as the finale.

Lion: the epilogue
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:14:50 AM by Lithium »

Offline marty

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2011, 09:19:01 AM »
The most anyone should really say about this game is that it's a shitty game with weird cutscenes.

I don't hate this game but I really don't think I could write anything but criticisms about it. 

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »
Smile PART 2
"Coburn" National Elementary School


 Smile shows you the extent of the U.N party's infiltration into American politics/government (spies) and is also an origins story for the killer 7. This also serves as the finale. Most of the plot in this part of smile in Coburn elementary is related to the events in sunset, here we find tapes left behind from a CIA investigator named Hulbert, his tapes walk us through his investigation on Coburn elementary and gives us hints to the major puzzles in this stage.

U.N party Espionage within the USA

Quote from: Hulbert Tape 09
Facts don't tell the whole story, or the truth. (Laughs) It's so cliché, but it's the truth about the state this country is in. This school is controlled by the government of another nation. Students here are trained to become elite agents who work for the government. Graduates are assigned to leading positions in the government and promised their life. Some are recruited as Yakumo party members. Those selected become key players in the intelligence war. In other words, they have the capability to spark some fires in the United States. That's the job of a Yakumo
party member.

Remember the role of Fukushima in smile? it was his job to work as a middle man between the spies working inside the U.S government and the party leaders of the U.N party (aka: Yakumo party) they've allready been working on an espionage network for some time before the events of killer 7. Coburn elementary was a beachhead of sorts, training/brainwashing young minds to work for the Yakumo party/U.N party (this was either a consistency error missed by the producer or they might have changed the name of the party somewhere down the line, it wouldn't make sense for it to be anyone other than the U.N party)

Quote from: Travis
"Quiet!  If you're overheard,. you'll be in deep trouble. 

Lemme tell you straight up, just between you and me.  This is the spot where the homeland's elections originate.  The spot for the primaries for the first presidential election.  The first president of the US was the principal of this school.  Win over your neighbors, and win over the world.  That's the way politics works."


Conspiracy

Before we step foot onto colburn elementary Travis hints at the true state of American politics within the world of killer 7, telling us that american democracy was a fraud from the very begining. but why is this particular school important? why Wahington Seattle and not Washington D.C?

Quote from: Travis
Don't raise your voice, man!  Nobody knows who could be listening.  Twenty-four people.  That's how many electors have been assigned to this state.  Ten percent of the total vote.  Hey, that makes it the key state!  Now, wouldn't that be a nice place to control?  The lord of this state is the lord of the land.  But who must you sweeten to gain this fair prize?  It'll take a mountain of money.  But for whom to write the check?  You must know by now, right, so just tell me straight up?"

for non-politics geeks, Travis is refering to the United states electoral college. In the fictional world of killer 7 seattle has 24 electors and is likely a swing state in the world of Killer 7. This gives the state of Seattle hieghtend importance in dermining the next US president (The numbers among other things don't match real life but i'll give it a pass since a lot of stuff in killer 7 don't match up in real life anyways haha). So who is this person that we need to write check to in order to influence the election? I'm going to jump ahead a bit and let Mill's ghost answer that question for me:

Quote from: Mills
...Most ballot booths are at schools. The Education Ministry is in charge of the schools. The results of the election are rigged from the start. Voting is just for show. Before votes are counted, the Education Ministry does a switcheroo. The biggest magic trick on Earth. In other words...

The most powerful man in the country is the Education Secretary...


Here Mills spells it out for you when you meet him again at the union Hotel. (as a side note it's obvious here that the localizers of killer 7 translated some of this literally, The united states does not describe it's departments as ministries and was probably a mistake from the original japanese script) Mills tells you in Smile part 1 that he was killed because he got too close to the state's secrets.

Politics of Killer 7
Sunset + Smile= the big picture


now it's time to start piecing together the puzzle. imediately after the end of world war 2 there were two prevailing schools of political thought duking it out in Japan: the new liberalism introduced by the American ocupation of Japan/ political philosophers in hiding and the old conservative political philosphy established at the start of the Meiji period (the begining of the Japanese Empire). In the world of killer 7 this is the Liberal party of Japan and the U.N/Yakumo party.

At the time when Sunset begins the U.N party held the reigns of government with the liberals as the opposition majority inthe diet (Akiba and Kurahashi are probably the prime minister and the Upper house council leader) in the insuing intrigue of Japanese politics the liberal party of Japan placed a hit on Toru Fukushima, as I stated eariler was the middle man/cordinator of the U.N party spies in the United states, thinking that he was in posesion of the Yakumo unbeknowest to them ICBMs were on their way to  Japan, with Fukushima gone there was no one to cordinate the U.N party agents in the U.S to intercept the missiles. When i first wrote sunset part 1 i said that Fukushima would use the Yakumo as a bargaining chip. This is the first time i've actually decided to sit down and interpret the plot (although with previous playthorughs i at least had a superficial idea of what was going on)
so I my idea of what the Yakumo is was cloudy (no pun intended lol) at the time.

The Yakumo

In the Hulbert tapes we see him refer to the japanese conservatives at the Yakumo party, here's my interpretation of what the Yakumo is: The Yakumo was created by the Union 7 aka, the first 7 leaders of the 7 departments of the Daijo-Kan (the department of state/foreign afairs ministry) in the Meiji period after the fall of the Shogunate. The Yakumo, in the world of Killer 7 was a policy drafted by the Daijo-kan and approved by the cabinet of the first Meiji goverment and is to be used as a blueprint for colltrolling foreign powers in their attempt to build an empire.

Today (in the killer 7 timeline) the Yakumo is known as the implementation of the espionage network. In cloudman Ulmeyda uses his First life company as a front for implementation of the teachings of theYakumo to controll/found the city of ULmeyda, the U.N party uses it's espionage network to implement the Yakumo. So now lets get back to Toru Fukushima, given my newfound interpretation of what the Yakumo is Fukushima was going to get the spies within the U.S to intercept the missiles, Fukushima dies and in Sunset part 2 Kenjiro Matsuoka takes the reigns and is able to intercept the missiles.

Kenjiro Matsuoka's revenge

Quote from: Benjamin Keane
"Laugh, killer.
The actor pulls the curtain himself. You never know what fate might bring. You can't become the President without getting a little crazy.

Hear me out, killer.
You're standing on the wrong stage. Sometimes it's harder to let people live.

Listen up, killer.
This country is pumped. A monopoly on money, power, and interests. The reward?
Heaven Smile.

Foresee, killer.
See into the future. This nation will be the focus of concentrated fire. But it
still won't die.

Figure it out, killer.
I'm not dead. Blood flows through Japan again. The UN Party and the Opposition
Party are holding secret meetings.

Kill, killer.
Don't expose the nation's shame. Topple the young members of the UN Party.

Go, killer.
Open the forbidden door. Your mission is to bury the dark pages of history. If
you do, paradise awaits you."


Now that we know about the election conspiracy of the USA it appears that Matsuoka and the U.N party figured this out as well (with the hep of the Yakumo i presume) and as revenge for leaving Japan out to dry during Sunset part 2 (at the KAKU talks) he plans to "expose the nation's shame" as Keane puts it. Now it's time to read the 2nd half of Mill's quote i posted before:

Quote from: Mills
...The most powerful man in the country is the Education Secretary
But a Japanese put him out. The dog bit back at his owner. Revenge for being left for dead. This is big trouble. Corrupt officials are at a loss. The country has been revealed for what it is - a monster.

But will anything change? You expect some revolution? Well, a dog can't do ****.Has a dying country ever created anything worth its salt?

Greg Nightmare (the last boss who has silly name lol) was the Education secretary, the Japanese man that Mills talks about is Kejiro Matsuoka (remember him from the cutscene?

In the last fight of Smile, the black smiles are the new model of Smiles that travis refers to before, they are impervious to even the killer 7, only the golden gun can bring them down.

there seems to be 3 parts of the killer 7 plot:

1) the political (which i just wrote about)
2) Dieties/gods (kun-lan/Harman)
3) Individual (the killer 7)

I dont really understand #2 to be honest and only have a part understanding of #3 but im pretty burnt out so I wont write about it since i have to go to work soon haha
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 10:17:02 PM by Lithium »

Offline adadad

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2011, 06:02:06 PM »
text text text

I have to say I'd be extremely surprised if any of your posts get read out on the podcast :P

Also, Jonny, I approve of the comparison with the old Resident Evil games. I am highly tolerant of those games and I actually think that Killer 7 has decent gameplay and some quite good puzzles. It's archaic, but to me it's an acceptable form of archaic.

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2011, 09:16:13 PM »
Quote from: lithium
Smile: part 1

this ones a little more obvious, this is an origin's story to the killer 7 persona's as we know them in the game. game play wise, I don't like this part of smile, since you're literally doing the same thing over and over here.

When i wrote this I bunched both trips to the union hotel together, forgetting that it's split up into two parts

Smile part 3
Union hotel

Here we see Garcian killing off the 7 personae of the killer 7, every spot where they were killed was also the location of a soul shell during the first trip to the Union hotel

I'd like to quote an interesting point about the deaths of the killer 7 personae

Quote from: Shockney haynes, GamesFAQS

Is there any significance to the way that the Personae's powers work?

All of the Personae's powers suggest elements of their deaths, inthe Union Hotel.  All of the powers are inversions of the elementsof their deaths.

Kevin Smith was in disguise, but his disguise failed.  In the Killer7, Kevin Smith's disguise is perfect: he turns invisible.

Con Smith did not hear Emir enter his room, and he did not run away.  In the Killer7, he has perfect hearing and he can run at impossible speeds.

MASK De Smith was completely nude, exposed, and he died without putting up a fight.  In the Killer7, he is disguised entirely, and he is the superhero-in-residence.

KAEDE Smith was a coward; she ran away when she had the chance to warn the remainder of her comrades, and she hid in a closet.  In the Killer7, she instead slits her wrist and showers forth blood--an action reminiscent of self-sacrifice, the opposite of her behavior in the Union Hotel.  As well, instead of placing a barrier between herself and a threat--as she did when she hid from Emir in the closet--she removes barriers.

Coyote Smith hid unimaginatively from Emir.  In the Union Hotel, Coyote had the option of climbing onto the fire escape to flee. Lacking the imagination to do so, however, he was killed when Emir instead used the fire escape to catch Coyote off guard.  In the Killer7, then, Coyote possesses the ingenuity and cleverness that he failed to display at the Union Hotel.

Dan Smith talked a lot of trash, bragged to Emir's face, and even beat Emir to the draw.  In the end, though, he was unable to cash the check his mouth had written.  In the Killer7, then, he is
still a braggart, but he is able to follow through with the claims made in his speech.  He is even able to fire the devastating Colatteral Shot--a supernatural version of the gunshot that could
have saved his life from Emir Parkreiner, in the Union Hotel.

after you get to the 7th floor of the union hotel you meet a young harman smith, who explains to you who Emir/Garcian really is . After we take the elevator up, we see Garcian/Emir meet with Kun-lan and Harman after some cryptic speech from Kun-lan and Harman, they get gunned down. In the next few seconds we see Garcian encounter his former self, the 13 year old Emir Parkreiner.

   It's possible that Emir was the pawn of Kun-lan (the personification of the East), taught and raised by the Yakumo and later reborn as Garcian smith, controlled by the U.S government and works for Harman (personification of the west) with kun-lan and harman gone it's possible that the killing of Emir at the end represents Garcian becoming whole, the memories coming back to him. Ultimately however, the story of Garcian/Emir parkreiner and his relationship to kun-lan and Harman are intentionally left up to interpretation in my opinion. In very end of this chapter however, we see Garcian open up his briefcase that he's been carrying around the entire game, the one he used to revive the personae only to see the weapons of the killer 7. Garcian then breaks down and the credits roll.

SMILE complete

--------------------------------------

text text text

I have to say I'd be extremely surprised if any of your posts get read out on the podcast :P: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Also, Jonny, I approve of the comparison with the old Resident Evil games. I am highly tolerant of those games and I actually think that Killer 7 has decent gameplay and some quite good puzzles. It's archaic, but to me it's an acceptable form of archaic.

   I'd be fine with that if my posts weren't read because I'm really writing these long posts for myself. When I decided to play along for this retro active I decided i would try to sit down and make an honest effort at making my own interpretation of the killer 7 story because I don't think i would have done this otherwise. In the process I had to reasearch some Japanese History (pre ww2) and as a result got pretty interested in it and will probably keep reading about it even after this retro-active is done. This is my 3rd playthrough of the game since I bought it (when it came out) and i've allready finsihed killer 7 and killer 8 (and Hopper 7, but that's just the first chapter) so since i was already very familiar with the gameplay i decided to try it this time around, putting everything in writing just helped my train of thought.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 04:17:09 AM by Lithium »

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2011, 11:45:06 AM »
We didn't read Lithium's posts on the show, but I did refer people to the thread specifically to check these out. The effort and persistence is much appreciated!
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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2011, 08:56:31 PM »
We didn't read Lithium's posts on the show, but I did refer people to the thread specifically to check these out. The effort and persistence is much appreciated!

yeah, I haven't listened to the episode yet but I will tomorow. Like I said in my last post, i just wanted to make my own interpretation of the plot and decided to post it to make up for the small number of participants haha.

Lion
epilogue
3 years later the last of the heaven smile remain on Battleship island and Matsuken is waiting for you.When you meet him he gives the player the choice to either kill or spare him, Benjamins Keane's ghost makes the case for killing Matsuken in Smile part 2:

The decision

Benjamin Keane gives you cryptic hints of your choices in Smile part 2, in my opinion he's speaking to the dual nature of Emir/Garcian one half raised by the teachings of the Yakumo, the other allied to the U.S with Emir/Garcian whole again he will have to reconcile with his alegences once and for all:

the case to spare Matsuoka

Quote from: Benjamin Keane
Foresee, killer.
See into the future. This nation will be the focus of concentrated fire. But it
still won't die.

Figure it out, killer.
I'm not dead. Blood flows through Japan again. The UN Party and the Opposition
Party are holding secret meetings.


the case for killing Matsuoka

Quote from: Benjamin Keane
Hear me out, killer.
You're standing on the wrong stage. Sometimes it's harder to let people live....

Kill, killer.
Don't expose the nation's shame. Topple the young members of the UN Party.

Results of the descisions below, highlight to view

If you let Matsuken live You've chosen the conservative pre WW2 japanese Ideals and foreign policy, hakko icchu. The reborn Japan made possible by the bi-partisan alliance of the Liberals and U.N party (the result of the secret meetings Keane mentions) will launch a full scale attack on the United states, seeking retribution for the events of world war 2

If you kill Matsuken The United States launches a full scale attack on Japan. Mirroring the events of Sunset, the one person capable of doing somthing about it is taken out, except this time no one is there to save Japan at the nick of time.


100 Years later

The point of the very last scene of killer 7 is that no matter how serious an attempt of eradicating war anyone makes even if it's an effort by those at the very top or Even if war takes place and somone wins, you can't prevent the cycle of war. Definately not the first time someone made that statement but it is what it is

  I'll go off on a tangent because im a history nerd and will use any excuse to talk history to say we've actually seen an example of this play out in real life before after U.S President Woodrow Wilson played a key part in establishing theLeague of Nations into the Treaty of versailles after the First world war, Internal politics within the league members and impending international politics fractured the league and ultimately failed in it's primary goal of maintaining world peace, even in todays world we are feeling the effects of World War One (the cycle of war)

Killer 7 Completed
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 02:20:27 PM by Lithium »

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2011, 04:58:51 AM »
I got to the giant smiles back when I played K7, could never deal with those quickly enough to continue the game past that point. Might play it again but I'm ignoring Lithium's posts so I can witness the insanity on a fresh mind.

Offline ejamer

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2011, 01:00:37 PM »
Killer 7 is such an odd game. I finished it, but really can't say anything about what actually happened. Lithium's posts seem like good story breakdowns... I've only skimmed them though, since I'd like to play again and try to figure out at least some of the details myself.


Some general comments:
-- Tough game to get into, but once you understand the controls it moves smoothly for the most part and becomes much more enjoyable. Shame you have to suffer through the first level (maybe more) before reaching that comfort level.
-- A few of the puzzles seemed very abstract, to the point that they are annoying. During my play through there were two or maybe three GameFAQ consultations so that I could move on without wasting time - something I'm usually loath to do.
-- Loved the style and general wackiness. Is it too morbid to say I loved collecting and spending blood for upgrades?
-- Combat feels tacked on. Odd aiming, inability to move, invisible enemies, forcing players to react and target critical hits... at times it feels like story (and style) was put before gameplay, and combat/movement controls were tacked on to justify the story.
-- This really should have been on Wii. Aiming would be more intuitive, the on-rails movement wouldn't feel so out of place, and I bet you could fit the whole thing on a single disc.




Did anyone try the modes that are unlocked after beating the game?
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Offline Lithium

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2011, 01:17:24 PM »
I got to the giant smiles back when I played K7, could never deal with those quickly enough to continue the game past that point. Might play it again but I'm ignoring Lithium's posts so I can witness the insanity on a fresh mind.

Yeah those posts were written assuming people had already played the game or played the parts I wrote about, so i don't think you'll get much out of reading them without playing the chapter(s) I wrote about first anyways.

-- This really should have been on Wii. Aiming would be more intuitive, the on-rails movement wouldn't feel so out of place, and I bet you could fit the whole thing on a single disc.

Did anyone try the modes that are unlocked after beating the game?

Yeah i agree, this would have fit in very with the light gun games on Wii. well as long as the waver stat was taken away and made steady off the bat since aiming the wiimote itself is basically built in waver. Yeah also I played Killer 8 about a year ago, it's tough but you get young harman with a tommy gun to compensate. Played Hopper 7 as well but you can only play Angel in that mode.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:04:09 AM by Lithium »

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: RetroActive #19 - Killer 7 - Official Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2011, 12:50:55 AM »
I don't get why the RFN crew has so much trouble with knowing about the mechanics, I knew about pretty much all of them (never had the serum machine break though so I probably wasn't grinding enough). Maybe I read the manual? That was back during a time where reading manuals was still worthwhile (not like today where the manual basically tells you to play the tutorial).