Topic: RetroActive #17: Legend of the Mystical Ninja (SNES) - Official Discussion

[Jonnyboy117]

In a temporary break from the democratic process, the RFN crew has chosen Konami's Legend of the Mystical Ninja (a.k.a. Gonbare Goemon) for our next RetroActive discussion. This is a fun, interesting, easily accessible game, and we really hope you will play along and discuss it with us.


The game is available worldwide on Virtual Console for 800 Wii Points. It combines quasi-overhead, Zelda-style adventuring with side-scrolling action levels similar to Mega Man or Henry Hatsworth. The character designs and quirky soundtrack established Goemon as a star character for Konami; he would go on to be featured in several sequels and spin-offs, including the infamous N64 game also called Legend of the Mystical Ninja.


Please join us in discussing the game in this thread. Your posts may be read in whole or in part on Radio Free Nintendo during our on-air feature discussion of the game. Also, RetroActive voting will return for the next installment -- we just needed a break from the popular RPGs of late!

[Mop it up]

he would go on to be featured in several sequels and spin-offs, including the infamous N64 game also called Legend of the Mystical Ninja.

The two Nintendo 64 games are titled Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon and Goemon's Great Adventure.

[TalesOfFan]

And I have just enough points left on my Wii to get it. I guess this will be my first Retro Active.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Interesting choice. Is Legend of the Mystical Ninja much of a time sink? I'm pretty busy with work for the next few weeks, but I'd still like to participate. Ideally, it needs to be a game where individual sessions with it don't go on a long time; something I can dip into for no more than 20-30 minutes, then save and quit. Does it meet this criteria?

[TalesOfFan]

So far this game is pretty difficult. I have never played a game were all of the towns people are hostile and where you gain some kind of points from collecting women.

[noname2200]

Interesting choice. Is Legend of the Mystical Ninja much of a time sink? I'm pretty busy with work for the next few weeks, but I'd still like to participate. Ideally, it needs to be a game where individual sessions with it don't go on a long time; something I can dip into for no more than 20-30 minutes, then save and quit. Does it meet this criteria?

If I recall correctly, the game is relatively short, and it's broken up into individual levels of around 20-40 minutes each, so it's great for short-burst gaming.  It has a password saves, but if you're going Virtual Console it'd be easier to just use the suspend feature. 

Anyhow, it's an interesting and fun game, so I'm looking forward to this Retroactive.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Cool. Consider it purchased.

On another note, I certainly appreciate the break from RPGs. May I request that you go one step further and simply not include one in the forthcoming poll? Obviously, people like to talk about them, but genre variety makes for more diverse discussions in my opinion.

[noname2200]

I just had a chance to go through the first (short) level. I rented this game two or three times back on the SNES, so I'm pretty familiar with it, but time's made me forget some things about it, most notably how deliberately corny and oddball this game can get. The "close-up" joke in the intro was more amusing when I was eight than it is today, but I still appreciate how the game makes it clear from the first minute that it's going to be unapologetically goofy.

This carries through to the enemies in both the "overworld" and side-scrolling sections. The only enemy in the overworld that would be a legitimate threat is the samurai (who never unsheathes his blade). The rest include a man with a bucket on his head, what seems to be a carpenter, and my personal favorite, a guy carrying a fish (which flops around on its own after you take out the guy carrying it). Even better, none of these normal enemies seem to be hostile, or to even take notice of you, so as near as I can tell all your characters are really doing here is mugging innocent villagers.  I'm sure they had it coming...? The enemies in the side-scrolling sections are a little more traditional, but even they occasionally make weird faces, and in my mind their animations are so "cartoony" that they seem more comical than threatening. 

I don't like how slow your character initially moves, but it's easy to upgrade his speed by buying some cheap sandals.  Other than that, I think the game generally controls pretty well: you won't be doing any fancy tricks or tight platforming, but I don't think the game ever asks you to do so.  Combat so far is pretty simple, with inattentiveness being the only way to get hurt, but I recall that changing later on: luckily I don't have any real complaints about the controls beyond the slow initial speed, although taking hits does make you lose some sandals, so it can become a problem in longer dungeons.

Finally, I kind of like the minigames. They're all simple, but aside from the maze they all require some skill, and they offer enough money to make them worth your while without ever being required to advance. I recall that there's actual arcade games later on, including a Konami SHMUP, but I couldn't find it in the first level, and I don't remember if those are full-fledged games or if they're just abbreviated versions of real arcade games.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I played the Nintendo DS game as an import. My understanding is that the DS release borrows very heavily from this SNES title, including the overworld and side-scrolling sections. The series definitely has an oddball Japanese personality that spoofs Japanese legends. Given that I've already sort of played this game, I'm not terribly enticed to play along, but I look forward to the discussion.

[FZeroBoyo]

Would certainly like to get in on this, never really done Retroactive before and have been curious about this title.


As for voting, it is a trend of "Place an RPG and Everyone Will Vote For It" because people probably see lots of discussion material in them.

[Yoshidious]

Even for a Goemon game this is riddled with anachronisms, and I'm not just talking about being able to bet on horse racing and play Gradius in Ancient Japan. Specifically, the game's design sensibilities feel like they come from two distinctly different eras for the side-scrolling levels vs. the town sections. On one hand you have a slick 16-bit action game that makes ostentatious use of the Super Nintendo's sprite scaling and rotation effects, while on the other you have a very strong 8-bit vibe as you're made to grind on enemies just to pay to have your rather inadequate movement speed upgraded, for instance (and even this is lost as soon as you take a hit). Being as this is a very early SNES game, I suppose this shouldn't come as a great surprise, especially since the town sections are based heavily on Goemon's Japan-only Famicom outings, but it's still odd to experience such contrasting styles standing alongside each other in the same game.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

My thoughts on Legend of the Mystical Ninja are:

1. Having reached Warlock Zone V, I don't feel that the comparison to Zelda-style overworlds is an appropriate one. The top-down sections of each zone are much more akin to a brawler - I'm strongly reminded of River City Ransom, particularly in the amusingly agape, wide-eyed expressions of the enemies as they die. Unfortunately, so far, the AI seems quite basic, with your foes not even actively attacking you in many cases, so these sections haven't been all that engaging.

2. On the flip side, the sidescrolling temple sections of each zone show some promise. Although these also started off a bit simple, in the area I just completed, Zone IV, the complexity of the platforming and the intricacy of the level layout started to ramp up. I'm hoping that this direction of travel for the level design continues into the later zones.

3. Why didn't anybody tell me that this game had such a great soundtrack? Given Konami's reputation during this era, perhaps this shouldn't be such a shock. Anyway, I love the sound of Japanese instruments, which really help with the game's thematic unity as well, plus it's a good one for surround sound because of those driving bass lines.

[Jonnyboy117]

I LIKE THE GIGANTIC TEXT DURING CUT-SCENES!

Is there a way to play as Dr. Yang in single-player? I wonder if it's as simple as plugging into the second controller port, and if there's a good way to approximate that on Virtual Console.

The first side-scrolling is oddly reminiscent of Ghosts 'n Goblins, although easier. From what I remember of later levels, they move away from that with more interesting platforming action. I definitely remember being excited about the tiger magic and then having no idea what to do with it.

[noname2200]

Finally found a bit more time to play through the game. This is sad to say, but I've only just discovered what the scrolls are for, and how to use the special powers that instructor charges you hundreds of dollars for. It was pretty neat to ride a tiger into battle, a la the box art (although mine looked more like Tigger than a tiger), but the tiger itself didn't seem to have any attacks, so I'm not sure what the point was. Are there other powers? And if so, are they more useful?

Anyhow, Killer_Man_Jaro's right that the soundtrack is definitely quality throughout, even though it has a fair range of variety to it. I also remembered how to use the projectile attacks, although that's literally throwing money away (luckily, the Paint game is so easy that money's never a problem). I like how the game starts offering you armor, but its usefulness is lessened by the fact that getting hit still makes you lose sandals and weapon power. Losing the sandals remains my top gripe about the game, since even though I've always got enough money to buy new ones, stores aren't always convienently placed. I had forgotten, though, that the price on the sandals goes up as the levels progress.

Has anyone had a chance to play this co-op? I remember being able to do funky things together, like riding piggyback and doing joint attacks, but since I'm not going to find anyone else who wants to play this anymore I haven't had a chance to test my memory.

[NWR_Neal]

*shudders at Kid Ying and Dr. Yang or whatever stupid names these characters have in the translation* It's Goemon and Ebisumaru for me.

I really dug this game when I played it a number of years ago. I played co-op with my friend through most of the game, and I believe you can grief each other really well, which led us to a point where only one person had any lives left.

You can ride piggyback, and I'm pretty sure you can Yoshi-jump to an all-new degree. Instead of a NPC dinosaur, you can send your friend to their doom.

[Ceric]

Been meaning to try this since I was little so I got it so I could be part of this.  I've made it to the first boss and took a bit to realize I had to know the plates.  Still figuring out what upgrade what.  I'm pretty sure 3 cats get me to yo-yo and the scrolls eventually up my power.  Throwing money is fun.  The fish guys at the start seem to be the hardest enemy in the game so far minus the boss.

[Crimm]

So far I've had some issues with bosses and hit detection. It seems the relevant hitboxes for them are very small compared to your massive zone of suffering.

I also find that the "take a hit, lose all upgrades" is a bit vindictive even by SNES standards.

[TheFleece]

I'm in the Third level and It's been going fine. I haven't played too many of the minigames, but I did stop for a round of Gradius. The music is hilariously chipper even when you're in constant doom while in town. I like the side scrolling levels, the controls feel like Ghosts'N Goblins. I attempted to play this game around 2005 and didn't get anywhere, but I'm glad I finally did because I'm enjoying it a lot.

[Ceric]

So far I've had some issues with bosses and hit detection. It seems the relevant hitboxes for them are very small compared to your massive zone of suffering.

I also find that the "take a hit, lose all upgrades" is a bit vindictive even by SNES standards.

Which upgrades you talking about.  When I have the Yo-Yo I get knocked to the  Long Pipe and the Long Pipe to the Regular Pipe.  Though I buy those sandals to three stacks to begin with I know it does something for me and I know the pizza is a save.

[TheFleece]

Which upgrades you talking about.  When I have the Yo-Yo I get knocked to the  Long Pipe and the Long Pipe to the Regular Pipe.  Though I buy those sandals to three stacks to begin with I know it does something for me and I know the pizza is a save.

The sandals make you move faster. 

I figure that most of us are playing this on Virtual Console and are probably saving your games by freezing your games with the Home button. It's still good to actually keep a record of your game saved though because when you die you get the choice of starting from your last save point. I've started saving more often too.

[Ceric]

Finished the first boss with the plates today.  Yay go me.

[lolmonade]

Maybe I've just lost my old-school platformer chops, but although there are some things I like about this game, I can't stand many old game conventions that exist here.  This game screams shitty Konami 8-bit platformer with 16-bit graphics.  Let's count the ways this game fails.

- The upgrade system for the weapon like castlevania, but shitty.  It's like having to start in NES TMNT with Raphael, kill enough enemies to get upgraded to Leonardo, and then Donatello, and then get hit and be back to Raphael again.  It would be a lot more acceptable to have to re-collect the weapon upgrades every time you died, but I find it to be too much punishment for a single mistake as-is.

- I wish you could use your weapon diagonally.  The angles for the first boss (hitting the discs) were surprisingly hard, and I got a game over before beating her.

- The overworld parts feel like pointless filler.  I got to the second land, and toyed around with some of the games, breaking blocks a la arkanoid knockoff, and spent money training, but don't quite get how it benefited me.  How about we go through the platform stages and inbetween stages we can choose to spend $ on these diversions.

A key to fun in a platformer is that it should be enjoyable to just do basic movement.  That's why games like Mario and Shinobi III are so great: it is fun to do basic movement.  This game is sluggish, and then they flood the screen with enemies that slow you down entirely too much.  It just isn't fun.

Ok..that was a lot more pessimistic than I meant to make it, but re-thinking it, all these negative points sort of take away from any merit I could mention regarding this game.  Someone tell me if I'm missing the point of something, but I personally hate justifying a few levels of tedium so I can get to the defining reason why a game is fun.

[Ceric]

Get the sandals three time for the sluggishness then he's repsonsive.

[Jonnyboy117]

lolmonade, we didn't get your post before recording time for RetroActive, but most of your points were brought up and discussed anyway.


This game proved to be divisive among the RFN crew. We recorded an hour of raw audio on this game alone, which I found surprising since I didn't think it was quite that fertile for discussion. (The final edited version will probably be a good bit shorter.)

[Ceric]

It be sort of cool to get the full retroactive discussion for those of us playing along linked here.
 
Also for the record the Yo-Yo should. Control like the whip in Super Castlevania.