Author Topic: RFN RetroActive #16 Discussion - Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lo(u)rdly Caliber(re)  (Read 27259 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline broodwars

  • Mr. Rogers never fought the Vietcong...
  • Score: -986
    • View Profile
Also, the Angel Brooch.  What does it do?

I think it just exists to be sold, as I can't think of any quests it belongs to and it's not one of the required equipment for Angel Knights or Seraphim.  I've seen rumors that equipping the brooch on a character raises the chance of them becoming an Angel Knight at the end of a map if they die, but nothing substantial.  Even if that was true, you're better off just using one of your Love & Peace items late in the game when you run into enemy Angel Knights to add them to your party.
 
As for that one boss, I get the feeling that's a bug because that has never made sense to me why that one boss would step away from his castle.  But no, I've never managed to take the castle while he's away.  The problem is that IIRC he doesn't go far enough for you to take the castle without entering into combat with him first, and if you don't kill him you automatically lose the fight no matter how much damage you do.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 08:33:15 AM by broodwars »
"There was a signature here. It's gone now."

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
Also, the Angel Brooch.  What does it do?

I think it just exists to be sold, as I can't think of any quests it belongs to and it's not one of the required equipment for Angel Knights or Seraphim.  I've seen rumors that equipping the brooch on a character raises the chance of them becoming an Angel Knight at the end of a map if they die, but nothing substantial.
 
As for that one boss, I get the feeling that's a bug because that has never made sense to me why that one boss would step away from his castle.  But no, I've never managed to take the castle while he's away.  The problem is that IIRC he doesn't go far enough for you to take the castle without entering into combat with him first, and if you don't kill him you automatically lose the fight no matter how much damage you do.

Thank you!  That's about what I thought (about both parts), but the boss one in particular is disappointing.  I had to line up six different units to take out the boss, and even then it was a close thing.  :-\

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
Love and Peace is the best item in the game.




...I may have duplicated it using the item duplication glitch in the past.
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
Love and Peace is the best item in the game.

If you can't beat 'em, steal 'em!

Offline broodwars

  • Mr. Rogers never fought the Vietcong...
  • Score: -986
    • View Profile
Love and Peace is the best item in the game.

If you can't beat 'em, steal 'em!

Hey, just remember: This land is made of LOVE AND PEACE!   ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:18:48 PM by broodwars »
"There was a signature here. It's gone now."

Offline gojira

  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
I had a character turn into a zombie.  That was unexpected.  Another thing I realized when reading what the deal with zombies was is that magic targets the rear first.  I think that came into the confusion of attack order for me as well.  I ended up just setting it to let the computer decide and they usually do a better job than any of the other settings.

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
My thanks for broodwars for advising me to stick a witch in my Pedra-winning unit: I got the second pedra halfway through Chapter 1, which is definitely a record.

I'm currently on Chapter 2, and I'm finally about to get over having soldiers in my units.  Which is good, because they only do about eight damage at this point, and they die like flies. :/  Having recently replayed March of the Black Queen, the later levels here are making me re-appreciate some of the things that have changed.  The fact that leaderless enemy units don't retreat and automatically reform is a huge bonus, especially since fights are already taking close to two hours as it is.  This also means that many of the enemy units are more unique than in the original: rather than fighting the same five units over and over and over again, this game varies up who you're fighting against, so most fights are fairly unique. 

Of course, they've jumped enemy levels to compensate for the fact that enemy units don't constantly regenerate, so all my units are becoming way too Lawful right now.  And while I really appreciate that the angle you approach an enemy changes the battle, it's annoying that your own units have to be directly looking at an enemy unit before you can assign it to chase the enemy.

Offline Pandareus

  • NWR Staff
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Hmm, there is way too much stuff unexplained in the tutorial or the manual in this game for my liking.

What's the use of the Training command when you're on the map?

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
Hmm, there is way too much stuff unexplained in the tutorial or the manual in this game for my liking.

What's the use of the Training command when you're on the map?

For some money, you have one of your units fight a higher-level enemy unit.  That fight continues until one side is eliminated.  If you win, all survivors get the according amount of EXP.  Unlike normal fights, death is not permanent, so don't worry if you lose someone.

Offline adadad

  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
I'm playing Vagrant Story at the moment on PS1, and I'm struggling to decide which of these two games is the less accessible. I will say at least that I do think the Ogre Battle management menus are well designed enough so as to not be overly frustrating or longwinded. Vagrant Story's menus are far more convoluted, which is sad when you consider that in Vagrant Story you're always only overseeing a single character as opposed to god knows how many in Ogre Battle. I'd say it's practically a necessity going to GameFAQs for an explanation of the various systems within the game though, especially for the class system and the chaos frame, which aren't explained very well in-game (or in the case of the chaos frame, not at all). Trouble is, and I think this applies to both Ogre Battle and Vagrant Story, the games are really challenging and a game over in either game can mean a setback of over an hour potentially. I enjoy a challenge and I like SRPGs, but it does annoy me that aside from teaching the very basics, the game provides very little information as to how to actually play it efficiently.

I managed for a while in Ogre Battle on my own but after I started coming up against tougher enemies partway into the game I went to GameFAQs. And what did I learn? That, apparently, early on in the game you should train up as many soldiers as you can, because the earlier you make them the better they will become. I wish there had been some indication in the game about this! The game doesn't even make you aware that soldiers will "evolve". Then compare this to the modern Fire Emblem games on GC and Wii, which do a great job of explaining what you need to do in order to succeed at the game.

Offline gojira

  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
I think Ogre Battle actually isn't as inaccessible now that I've given the game some time.  I don't feel like I play the game much differently than I play Fire Emblem.  It's just that the movement and combat in OB is just so unique to the other strategy RPGs I've played (Shining Force, Fire Emblem, Final Fantasy Tactics and even Tactics Ogre).  And the game does kinda throw you in the deep end right off the bat.  But it's not hard at the beginning, and you'll learn stuff along the way.

It kinda feels like I'm bumbling in the dark sometimes, but then you discover something new and it's kinda rewarding.  Starting with soldiers all of a sudden evolving.  Or out of nowhere two characters combining their magical attacks.  Or even stupid stuff like I just realized that you could change the class of the leaders, but you have to remove their leadership first. 

I'm almost halfway through the game and I have yet to really struggle against enemies.  So I guess I'm doing something right, even if I don't know what that is.  The class system?  I don't know how exactly it works, I just check to see if any of my characters can be promoted.  The Chaos Frame?  I'm not even going to bother with that one.  It's like EV training in Pokemon, just leave it to super fans.

The one thing that still irks me are the battles and the whole priority setup. 

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
My first playthrough I had gone through 4 battles before realizing you could dispatch additional groups, which lead to my main character being a beast, but all the other groups being woefully weak, so I restarted.  I didn't even know you could train your characters in-between battles until I read a comment on this forum.  I was wanting to avoid using a gameFAQ, but honestly, I don't think I can successfully play this game without using one.  Does anyone know if all the essential information was in the booklet that came with the game?  Has anyone played the tutorial before starting their game?  Im considering playing it just to see if it goes in great detail explaining the game.

This game so far has involved a great deal of trial-and-error, but it punishes you too harshly when you make a mistake.  I wasted a good 6 hours before realizing I would have no chance at the point that I had saved.  I'm taking my sweet time with every decision I make this time around, but I get the feeling that I'm a few steps away from learning I should have been doing something from the beginning, and I really don't want to have to re-tread the last 5 hours again...

James was right in the podcast when he said there was one big flaw, but it isn't the speed of the game, it's the complete lack of instructions for the menus/importance of position/unit upgrading.  It's really too bad, because I do enjoy the game as I understand it so far, but this has been a nagging frustration since i've started playing it.

A few questions:

  • What is the use of the soldiers you win after every battle?  Can they be upgraded at a certain point, or are they just cheap substitution for the other units?
  • Is there anywhere you can purchase items other than the default ones?  I haven't found any weapons/armor other than what drops in battle
  • What should the priority be for class upgrades?
3DS Friend Code: 0344-9310-1221
PSN: lol-monade
Twitter: @l0lmonade

Offline gojira

  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
A few questions:

  • What is the use of the soldiers you win after every battle?  Can they be upgraded at a certain point, or are they just cheap substitution for the other units?
  • Is there anywhere you can purchase items other than the default ones?  I haven't found any weapons/armor other than what drops in battle
  • What should the priority be for class upgrades?

Soldiers eventually evolve into a 'real' character (either an Amazon or a Fighter).  So I find it good to always have them in units.  Until then they are mostly fodder. 

Mostly you have to find a town with a store to purchase new items.  Some items are dropped after battles and some are found as you explore maps.  You can also buy sets of items on the organize screen.  But it's only the basic items for each class you've unlocked.  I found that useful to upgrade the equipment on my lower level Clerics after I had the Priest.

I'm not sure what you mean by priority.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but unlike a lot of other SRPGs there isn't necessarily a progression to classes.  For example, you don't need to be a Cleric before you can become a Priest.  If you have the stats and alignment, you can change to that class.   

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
I'm almost halfway through the game and I have yet to really struggle against enemies.

Most impressive.  Are you sure you're halfway there already?  It's a deceptively long game marathon; I've already started getting the highest class units (Paladins, Priests, Sirens, etc.) and I'm less than halfway through myself...

  Does anyone know if all the essential information was in the booklet that came with the game?  Has anyone played the tutorial before starting their game?  Im considering playing it just to see if it goes in great detail explaining the game.


 A lot of the problems you're having could have been avoided if you took the tutorial, as it does explain nearly all of the basics.  That said, there are still a lot of things that it never touches upon, so you're overall complaint is quite valid.

The game doesn't even make you aware that soldiers will "evolve". Then compare this to the modern Fire Emblem games on GC and Wii, which do a great job of explaining what you need to do in order to succeed at the game.

Actually, I believe the tutorial does cover this, and more besides.  I think the problem some people are having is that they've become ingrained to the idea that the first hour(s) of the main game will be a tutorial, so that you don't need to read the manual or pick up the basics elsewhere.  Personally, I prefer the way this game approaches it:  it lets me replay the game at any time without having to slog through a "here's how you move your units.  Now you do it!" moment, which I've always found off-putting.  I have a hard time restarting otherwise-great games (like Twilight Princess and Advance Wars 2) because they do start with those, so I'm grateful when a game doesn't.  Your mileage may vary, of course.
 

Offline gojira

  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
I'm almost halfway through the game and I have yet to really struggle against enemies.

Most impressive.  Are you sure you're halfway there already?  It's a deceptively long game marathon; I've already started getting the highest class units (Paladins, Priests, Sirens, etc.) and I'm less than halfway through myself...


From what I can tell I'm 2 or 3 scenes from the end of the second chapter.  And as soon as I post that I haven't been having much trouble, I hit some of those high level units.  However, after I thought the battle was all but lost I almost had that chapter beat when some enemy sneaked to my base and I got a game over.  I usually keep some characters there, but I thought I had cleared out the enemies and I needed the units.  The whole zombie thing has made me paranoid about losing units and I was moving some to a Witch's Den.  Ugh.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 11:04:47 AM by gojira »

Offline adadad

  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
A lot of the problems you're having could have been avoided if you took the tutorial, as it does explain nearly all of the basics.  That said, there are still a lot of things that it never touches upon, so you're overall complaint is quite valid.

The game doesn't even make you aware that soldiers will "evolve". Then compare this to the modern Fire Emblem games on GC and Wii, which do a great job of explaining what you need to do in order to succeed at the game.

Actually, I believe the tutorial does cover this, and more besides.  I think the problem some people are having is that they've become ingrained to the idea that the first hour(s) of the main game will be a tutorial, so that you don't need to read the manual or pick up the basics elsewhere.  Personally, I prefer the way this game approaches it:  it lets me replay the game at any time without having to slog through a "here's how you move your units.  Now you do it!" moment, which I've always found off-putting.  I have a hard time restarting otherwise-great games (like Twilight Princess and Advance Wars 2) because they do start with those, so I'm grateful when a game doesn't.  Your mileage may vary, of course.

I may be remembering wrongly (it's been a long time since I started this game), but I did do the training and I don't remember it being any good for explaining anything other than the basic gameplay mechanics...which of course in a strategy game like this is completely insufficient. I completely agree though that lengthy tutorials in games are undesireable, it's just I feel the information should be in there. And of course it can be in the game and still be optional or skippable for repeat playthroughs. Like I said, I think Fire Emblem is a good example of the right way to do it.

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
I just beat Scene 8 (Dardunelles), and I'd like to ask something I've been wondering for years: was that level's boss some kind of mistake that got overlooked?  There are two other tough battles in that fight (especially the witch's unit: thankfully she's alone), but dumping a level 20 Ogre in the front row just seems cruel.  It instilled an unholy fear of ogres in me for the rest of that first game...  Although it's interesting that that is the only boss that ever moves away from his castle.  Has anyone ever sucessfully captured that castle without defeating the boss?

So I tried this. Meant to come back to the thread to update what happened.

First off, that monster you challenge early wrecked Katreda's unit. Her, Asnabel, Troi, two soldier sets.

After the fight: Soldiers GONE. Troi, dead. Asnabel, banged up. I had to run them all the way across the map to the witches den, which was hazardous to say the least. Meanwhile the battle continued around them.

Anyway, and to my point, I tried to slide a unit in behind Magnus. So the battles against him are treated as if they're in the fort, even as I used Magnus to draw him further and further away from the fort. However, Dio's unit couldn't make it to the fort, because they got intercepted by a leaderless unit that was camping. I suspect, although I cannot confirm, that it would have you battle him.
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report

Offline Jonnyboy117

  • Associate Editor
  • NWR Staff
  • Score: 37
    • View Profile
    • Nintendo World Report
I've seen some posts mentioning the importance of upgrading soldiers. Does that mean I should periodically replace fighters and other "mature" units with soldiers, to give the latter a chance to be promoted during battle?
THE LAMB IS WATCHING!

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile


I may be remembering wrongly (it's been a long time since I started this game), but I did do the training and I don't remember it being any good for explaining anything other than the basic gameplay mechanics...which of course in a strategy game like this is completely insufficient.

Ah, in that case I stand corrected.  I know I wasn't surprised at the promotions, but I guess I'm forgetting where I learned to expect it, then.


Anyway, and to my point, I tried to slide a unit in behind Magnus. So the battles against him are treated as if they're in the fort, even as I used Magnus to draw him further and further away from the fort. However, Dio's unit couldn't make it to the fort, because they got intercepted by a leaderless unit that was camping. I suspect, although I cannot confirm, that it would have you battle him.

 There goes that thought, then.  :-\ I guess the best course remains loading a bunch of projectile troops on the right side, or trying to engage him from behind. (Don't go there, Lindemann!)

I've seen some posts mentioning the importance of upgrading soldiers. Does that mean I should periodically replace fighters and other "mature" units with soldiers, to give the latter a chance to be promoted during battle?

 Sort of.  Your army can field up to ten units at a time, so what you should be doing is forming new units as your army grows, with soldiers filling in the gaps.  In the first two or three battles, it's okay to have two or three soldiers in each unit, but as time goes on, you should space out the soldiers until each has one at most. 

Feel free to cannibalize units that don't have any soldiers to help form the new units (e.g. take one Valkyrie from Leia's unit, replace it with a soldier, and then assign the valkyrie to the new unit).  Between doing this, and recruiting special characters, you'll be able to field ten units by the end of the first chapter/early in the second chapter, with little to no soldiers remaining.
 
 

Offline Schadenfreude

  • It's human nature
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
This game isn't what I expected. I was thinking something more along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics. There are similarities, but the battles are much more passive.

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
I'm about two missions into Chapter Two.

I have nine units with only about 3 soldier sets currently in use (2 in the same formation)

I'm going to be getting at least two more units worth of special characters:

Destin and co.
and
Ankeseth and his unit

At some point I'll have to cannibalize a unit. I have a unit with a beast master, a hellhound, a priestess, and a fighter that is the likely candidate. That said, it's a terrible formation but they seem to manage quite well for themselves in fights.

Hellhounds in the front row are absolute wrecking balls.

I've been trying to recruit hawkmen. I have one so far. I'll get Sheen later. I'm quite alright with having an eleventh unit that's just flying. They're very useful later in the game when you need to get behind legions.
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report

Offline gojira

  • Score: 2
    • View Profile
I have a unit with a beast master, a hellhound, a priestess, and a fighter that is the likely candidate. That said, it's a terrible formation but they seem to manage quite well for themselves in fights.

My unit of a beast master and hellhound was one of my strongest.  The beast master already moved up in class, I could even make him a black knight if I wanted.  The hellhound evolved too.  Now my beast tamer/cerberus unit is quite deadly.

It's funny, after that one battle with the cockatrices I've resumed my dominance over the enemy.  And I finished Chapter 2 with out issue.  Then all of a sudden I have legions.  No introduction or anything, the option is just there.  The info in game didn't really help me understand how to use them so I went to gamefaqs.  It sounds like they're basically worthless?

I've also tried out the training for the first time.  I wanted to play more game, but didn't want to get sucked into a two hour battle.  It reminds me somewhat of the bonus exp system in the most recent Fire Emblem games.  Basically it seems to be a method to raise the levels of characters outside of battle.  I guess it has some other functions too, like finding more Elem Petras.  But I haven't done that yet.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:17:14 PM by gojira »

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
I never found the legions helpful. I did enjoy decapitating legions of their legionnaire. very useful tactic, and vultan units are well suited to it.
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report

Offline noname2200

  • Not a douche. Seriously.
  • Score: 21
    • View Profile
This game isn't what I expected. I was thinking something more along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics. There are similarities, but the battles are much more passive.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure I completely agree.  It's true that you don't command individual units in battle, like you would in the more common SRPGs, but that's only because you're channeling all your time and attention elsewhere.  Where games like Tactics Ogre have you putting most of your time into individual units' tactics (...), with only a bit of time spent in pre-battle preparation (i.e. equipment and class), this game asks that you put that same amount of time into arranging, equipping, and moving your units, with only a little time getting devoted to the battle itself.  This doesn't mean OB is more passive about combat, just that it reverses where the player has input on the outcome.  If it helps, think of games like Tactics Ogre as making you a military sargeant (sic), who can do a lot of micromanagement over his troops, while games like Ogre Battle treat you like a general, where preparing and moving your units is your duty, but the individual combat is left to subordinates.

I've been trying to recruit hawkmen. I have one so far. I'll get Sheen later. I'm quite alright with having an eleventh unit that's just flying. They're very useful later in the game when you need to get behind legions.

 Ah Sheen.  I nearly missed him this playthrough (my Chaos Frame was a smidge too high), but after restarting and letting the enemy take a few of my cities he showed up and did his usual perv act.
 
 I also got Ankiseth, i.e. the best character in the game hands down.  In terms of badass-oscity (...) he's basically like Orlandu was in Final Fantasy Tactics.  Although because there's fifty of you fighting instead of just five, he doesn't completely unbalance the game like Orlandu did. 
 


It's funny, after that one battle with the cockatrices I've resumed my dominance over the enemy.  And I finished Chapter 2 with out issue.  Then all of a sudden I have legions.  No introduction or anything, the option is just there.  The info in game didn't really help me understand how to use them so I went to gamefaqs.  It sounds like they're basically worthless?

 Yup, they suck.  They make your units completely inflexible, and the core unit has to have soldiers in it.  On the flipside, enemy legions are awesome:  because they're in a compact space, you can just go Wrecking Ball on them and enjoy the resulting carnage.  Even better, if you don't kill off the leaders, defeated enemies return to formation at super-speed, so you save a ton of time that's usually wasted on hunting them down.  Best of all, they won't retreat, no matter how wounded, until the legion leader does.  Convenient!
 

Offline Crimm

  • Get your unfiltered Bowsette here!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 1147
    • View Profile
Enemy legions are only problem if you don't plan for them. If you're not ready for them then get out of their way and start the process of getting ready.


I cleared Scene 12 - The Steadfast (Highland of Soathon) last night . Every time I play the game I forget that this mission has one nasty surprise for you. Early in the battle the enemies let you close in on them. Once you pass a certain point they launch a counter attack using vultan units.


This isn't the first time the game uses vultans or "FLY" formations, but it's the first time it shows you how they can be used in a concerted effort to achieve strategic objectives.


Here, once you clear the first stronghold of the hostiles around it three vultan units show up. One is behind you (in the mountains), one is across the river to the north and the other is across the river to the south. Because they fly they can cross the river without the bridge and are much faster then you. If they get behind your forces they have a clear shot at the stronghold, and can win by default.


LUCKILY I had enough forces behind to hold them long enough for the so-called "tip of the spear" units could double-back to resolve the situation.


This is, however, a strategy you can emulate. I'm still working on, because the next mission is the one where they blow up the bridges. I hate that mission, because it leaves you completely exposed until relief forces can reach the other side.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 09:27:03 AM by Crimm »
James Jones
Mondo Editor
Nintendo World Report