Topic: Wii Successor and Glassess Free 3D: How Will It Work?

[Ian Sane]

Once the Wii is replaced on the market, it may still not go by the way side in the same way all consoles go when their successor arrives. Nintendo would most likely reveal a hardware revision in the same vein as the PS2 slim. We will call it the Wii slim and Nintendo would market it to parents will young children and casuals who do not want to move onto the Wii 2. It would retail for about $100.00 when it is released. I see them doing the same thing with the DS onc the 3DS gets strong on the market.

If Nintendo wants the casual market to follow them to the Wii 2 then I think they should just outright kill the Wii off almost immediately after the Wii 2 is out.  If they continue to support it then why would casuals feel the need to move on?  These aren't core gamers who need the newest games.  These are the people who are content with Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit until Nintendo releases some new product that interests them.  I think there would be a risk of these people being content with their original Wii that plays the three casual-focused titles they love.
 
Sony had the problem where the PS2 continued to be successful and was actually selling better than the PS3.  I think a big part of that was Sony continuing to support it for so long.  Titles like Rock Band and Madden continued to have PS2 releases.  If that was all you cared about why buy the new system?
 
We've never really seen a follow-up to such a casual-oriented system like the Wii before.  I think getting casuals to buy new hardware might be a challenge to begin with.  Us core gamers are anxiously awaiting a Wii 2.  We want to see Nintendo with HD graphics.  We hope THIS will solve the third party issues.  We want an improvement in their online model.  Casuals don't give a **** about this.  They're not really looking for anything.  Their videogame system is a minor distraction in their lives and largely unessential.  So I think Nintendo is really going to need some must-own game for that audience to jump to a Wii 2 to begin with.  But I also think that new titles on the Wii is just going to keep people from making the switch.  They should be quick to kill the Wii off.  For casuals the small trickle of largely weak titles that occurs at the end of a system's life might in fact be good enough for them to stick with their original Wii.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Why would Nintendo kill off the Wii immediately after the Wii2 is released?

I'm sure Nintendo would LOVE to have the late adopter market that the PS2 has been enjoying for the last 5+ years. Those people still buying PS2s now will be the same people who will be buying the Wii 3-4 years from now. Releasing a new system isn't gonna affect those people's buying decisions, the only thing that does that is price.

Cashing in on the really late adopters is like creating a hit show that goes into syndication so that you can move on to a bigger better show that you also hope to be a hit and move that into syndication too.

Like you said, if you want to get the casual market to take the leap to the new hardware, then you just need to provide the "Must Have" games that aren't possible on the previous system. They need a WiiSports & WiiFit like experience for the next system, anything that will get the attention of the masses, get them talking and showing their friends and family.

Also the main reason the PS2 was selling more than the PS3 is the fact that the PS3 was $599 vs the PS2 being $99. Even to this day it's a $299 PS3 vs a $99 PS2 and $60 PS3 games vs bargain bin < $10/$20 PS2 games.

and like you said about the end of the life of the system, the trickle of forgettable games at the end might be good enough for some, well there is nothing Nintendo can do about that other than make AAA content for the Wii2 that gets enough buzz to get the causal base to upgrade again. Nintendo can't exactly kill off the Wii because publishers will keep the games coming as long as they keep selling and that means that Wii could continue to get shovelware for years to come.

[Ian Sane]

Cashing in on the really late adopters is like creating a hit show that goes into syndication so that you can move on to a bigger better show that you also hope to be a hit and move that into syndication too.

I see it more like two shows in the same timeslot.  I just think there is a risk that with the casual market the original Wii will end up competing with the Wii 2.
 
The killer app is key but I honestly think it will be difficult for Nintendo to capture that lightning a bottle twice.  Wii Sports had huge "neato" appeal with people moving the controller and the guy on the screen does the same thing!  HOLY ****!  That was a big moment in videogame history that can't be reproduced.
 
I don't think Nintendo is going to be able to come up with a new feature for the Wii 2 that will impress people as much as the initial motion control did.  They will improve on the concept and likely add something new but I think it will be very hard to have something so big.  I predict more of an upgrade than a revolution.  It's just the law of diminishing returns.  This will make it harder to come up with a killer app on par with Wii Sports.  Wii Sports wasn't just the game, it was the feature.
 
I think Nintendo will have their work cut out for them in getting the casual audience to go to the Wii 2 so phasing the Wii out can help push those people along.  The killer app could do it on its own but that killer app might be impossible to make.

[Kytim89]

I can not help but feel as though the casuals will have a tough time moving onto the Wii 2 even if the Wii is phased out. The simple fact is that the Wii 2 may not be able to be marketed towards casuals in the same the Wii was marketed in 2005. They are not concerned with HD graphics or advanced motion controls.
 

I said this before, but Nintendo's true baby is the 3DS and it is no longer the Wii or even the Wii 2. I have heared that the gaming market in Japan is moving towards handhelds, so Nintendo would most likely release the Wii 2 in Japan for two reasons: First, for the sake of having a home console and the potential profits it would generate, and second, to keep Sony off balance with the Move. Other than that, Nintendo's main focus to push the 3DS as far as they can get with it.
 
The west, on the other hand, will get the Wii 2 for the same reasons I stated above, but there is also a thid option. The Wii 2 will be developed to satisify third parties, particularly western third parties in an attempt to keep their interest in Nintendo's home consoles.
 
This leads me to believe that Nintendo will push the Wii 2 and 3DS farther together in the west, but will mainly focus on building a solid foundation for the 3DS in Japan's market.
 
Also, if the Wii 2 is to have HD then it will have to be a big, bulky system, right? Traditionally the people of Japan have shiyed away from bulky consoles for more stream lined ones, right? But in the west we are accustom to bulk systems and so nothing will matter.
 
As for the Wii remaining on the market after the Wii 2 arrives, Nintendo would be mainly selling the consoles to soccer moms who have small children with no interest in HD gaming.

[Adrock]

Alright, if we're going to play Build Your Wii Successor, here's mine.

Controller: Nintendo 6 (6th console... look, it won't be called Wii 2 or Wii HD... f-ing Pachter) has to be able to do everything the Wii and Gamecube did AND something new and exciting. I firmly believe that N6 must have only ONE main controller. No add-ons (i.e. Motion Plus), no classic controller. The controller has to be able to do everything (motion controls, traditional controls, and whatever new-fangled thingamajig Nintendo has planned) with the same basic controller: remote and nunchuck-esque secondary controller. This simplifies things considerably for consumers and 3rd parties. This, however, means more buttons. For non-gamers, seeing someone playing the game rather than seeing the controller is what made it appealing. Most people didn't see the actual controller at first, they saw someone holding a white stick not playing games the way they're stereotypically played. Adding more buttons won't change that. After all, the DS has an SNES layout and that didn't scare non-gamers away. The 3DS has an analog stick. Nintendo is technically further complicating their handheld and yet it's still going to appeal to the same audience because the microphone and touchscreen negate the presence of more complicated controls. The buttons are there, but do nothing and thus are inconsequential to non-gamer software. This ultimately creates a balance for casual gaming and hardcore gaming. The same principle can be applied to N6. You can make all the buttons do nothing or have them all do the same thing (i.e. "Press any button to continue"), but you can't add more buttons after the fact. Give developers the tools and let them decide how to use them. With DS, Nintendo was all about giving developers more options. With Wii, they were essentially taking options away or making the alternative less appealing (since fewer people, by virtue, would have a classic controller) and essentially forcing developers to make due with the limitations of the Wii remote. Not the best way to win support.

My scanner isn't working so I can't show you any fancy drawings. I'll try my best to describe my set-up.

"Nunchuck": Wireless, no pointer, 3-axis accelerometer, gyroscope, rumble, rechargeable
- Analog stick in main position, D-pad underneath, L and ZL (ZL has digital click) in the back
Remote: Wireless, pointer, Infrared pointer, 3-axis accelerometer, gyroscope, rumble, rechargeable
- traditional A,B,X,Y at the top, Analog Slider (3DS) underneath, minus, home, plus under that, then the speaker and finally 1,2,3,4 at the bottom. R and ZR (ZR has digital click) in the back.

It's basically the Classic Controller separated and shaped like a Remote and nunchuck.

Hardware: Nintendo must make the console as powerful as possible while still promoting efficiency and simplicity and either break even or make the smallest profit possible on hardware (do not sell at a loss). I suggest an MSRP of no more than $300, maybe $350. That means, make the most powerful console they can within the confines of a sub $350 MSRP. I'm not a spec whore. I say this only because it matters to 3rd parties and Nintendo should be trying to support them in any way they can. They're making the games and they can make Nintendo loads more money. Ultimately, what it comes down to: We get quality titles, Nintendo makes money, 3rd parties make money. Everyone wins. Nintendo will likely launch at least a year before Sony and Microsoft and Microsoft showed that with a little forward thinking, you can launch hardware first and still have hardware on the same level as a competitor. If Nintendo can get steady support and become the lead platform, it won't even matter if Sony and Microsoft launch slightly more powerful machines because 3rd parties will develop for N6 and port over. Exclusives are a dying breed, the vast majority of 3rd party titles will undoubtedly be multiplatform as we're already seeing today. Most 3rd party games are developed for 360 and ported to PS3.

Abandon Disc Based Media: No, I'm serious. I detest load times. Nintendo is never going to support DVD/Blu-Ray movie playback and they don't have to. However, if they aren't going to, that's one less reason to continue supporting discs. Therefore, abandoning disc based media in favor of cards is an excellent idea and one that provides numerous benefits including durability and quicker data access. Card based storage is more expensive than discs but the discrepancies between cart/card and disc are far narrower than they were back in the N64/PS1 days. Most modern games do not exceed a double sided DVD. For comparison's sake, you can get 8GB SD card (not saying they should use SD cards for storage, I mean something proprietary like DS) for $15 on Amazon. In a year, it'll be even less and on top of that, 3rd parties buy in bulk so it wouldn't even be that much. Games less than 4GB or 2GB (don't balk, Metroid Prime is less than 2GB and that game is massive) would require even cheaper cards.

Unfortunately, this would mean abandoning non-VC backwards compatibility. I know people love their BC, but Nintendo needs to think about N6 first and foremost, not Wii/Gamecube. While BC is a nice selling point for the first year, maybe 2, ultimately it becomes an afterthought and practically vestigial to most users. Eventually, every successful piece of hardware relies on its own merits. Backwards compatibility is a short-term solution to short handed launches whereas employing a card based storage medium provides major advantages throughout the entire lifespan of the console. While I'd love backwards compatibility, I'd sacrifice it for a more durable console with no load times. This is something gamers will notice immediately as they'll experience it within every single game.

Support SSD, continue to support SD cards: For the same reasons as employing cards. It's faster and more durable. The new Macbook Air models can start up in less than 15 seconds and that's loading OSX. N6 is merely a game console. Imagine getting to the menu screen in 10 seconds. Nintendo NEEDS some sort of massive storage device so it can do everything the competition does: patches (ugh), DLC (facepalm), demos, Virtual Console etc. 3rd parties will appreciate this and so will gamers. While SSD are expensive, the price is likely to continue to drop. Apple integrated flash based storage directly onto the motherboard of the new Macbook Air making flash based storage more common. Additionally, Toshiba, who supplies Apple with those pieces, started selling them as stand-alone SSD today. That said, the prices will likely fall to far more affordable prices by the time N6 launches. I think 128 GB should be more than enough for most people and there's always expansion by (slower) SD cards should space become an issue. Keep in mind, with card based media, installing games to improve load times is no longer necessary.

Virtual Console must support Gamecube and Wii games: Pretty self-explanatory. Most GCN games didn't exceed 1 disc whereas few Wii games filled an entire dual-layed DVD. With compression, the file sizes are likely to be even smaller. This is the best case scenario should Nintendo abandon BC.

Include Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort on the SSD: It's a nice little bonus incentive that costs Nintendo nothing. I think Nintendo should consider a pack-in game that demonstrates whatever new innovative feature they have planned, but since we have no idea what that might be, I can't really comment on it. Basically, it's the gateway drug... game.

Online, Universal Gamer ID, Integrate 3DS: I bundled these together for a reason. N6 and 3DS should be companion hardware capable to sharing information (Mii, Nintendo points etc.). Of course, a universal ID would help out tremendously. 3DS is likely to sell well; many people will have one. It could be used as an alternative controller option for some games, but rarely a requirement as few games could get away with that. It could potentially share GCN and under VC games too.

Not much more needs to be said of Nintendo's online structure. It needs to offer a similar experience to Xbox Live. It may not need all the bells and whistles, but a strong, consistent connection without lag, voice chat, friends list are all must-haves.

[Kytim89]

I like the idea of having SSD support for the Wii 2, but it sems as if the price for that technolog is still too cost prohibitiv for Nintendo to implement into their console. Basic laptop HDDs are very cheap compared to SSD and Nintendo loves cheapness.
 
The biggest question I have about the storage solutions is what will Nintendo allow on the Wii 2? I have heared that Nintendo is reluctant to use HDD because of durability, but it seems to me that because of all the turmoil involving storage for the Wii, Nintendo would most likely make every storage option available. These would include:
 
Internal HDD (2.5 SATA)
Exsternal flash drives and USB HDD
SD card
Internal flash (8 GB)
 
The only one of these options that I am skeptical, but some what optimistic about, is the internal HDD. It would raise the energy requirements of the console, but it would make installing games a lot easier, right? Also, I do not see Nintendo offering their own HDD, but I do see them allowing hard drives from companies like Maxtor to be used on the console.
 
Games such as Red Steel 2 could benefit tremendously from being allowed to be installed onto an HDD to lower load screen times. 

[Spak-Spang]

Adrock:  Holy crap, those control options are nuts.  I completely understand what you are trying to do, but it is just insane.  I have a simpler idea.  Just let the classic controllers from the Wii work with the new system. 

The reasoning is pushing D-Pad and Slide bar underneath the controller will be just unintuitive.  I love everything else about your proposal.  Yes, a Static Drive drive is what Nintendo needs to use for storage.  We don't need a large drive. 2-5 GIG static Drive would be plenty with SD card support from the start.  Now, I am not one that says Nintendo MUST allow Hard Drive support for their system, but if people wanted it an external would be good support.  I like the idea of SD cards because it is friendly takes up little space, and if the Wii 2.0 is designed well.  It can place games and their respective game saves in the same location linked together...then when you copy one you copy both for Virtual Console games and Wii 2 games. 

I still think buttons on the Wii remote are not as BIG of a problem as people think, and it is only the placement of some of the buttons not being useful.  Adding 2 more buttons that are more optimal for usage would make the Wii much more playable. 

I propose just adding X and Y back into the design.  Think of the Gamecube controllers peanut shaped buttons.  Now have 2 of those buttons surrounding the bottom left and right of the Big A button.  Simple.  You now have access to 4 face buttons easily holding the Wii remote in the default pointer position and then the tigger B button.  (Down, A, Z, X and B)  Add to that the Analog nunchuk and you have 7 buttons analog control AND pointer control.  Less buttons than the traditional controllers but more than enough buttons for games...and classic controller support is still supported. 

I think the Wii 1 and 2 buttons need to be made slightly larger and not worry about adding new buttons.  It really isn't necessary for the design.  And slightly more space could be used for a slightly bigger D-Pad which would make everything more comfortable.  Holding the controller in the classic position you still have 3 main buttons, 4 if you count A and or B plus 2 other buttons which could still be used for something. 

I could see dropping the D-Pad for the analog slider, but wonder if that is really necessary.

Now, I like disc based games being faster and requiring no load times, but I think abandoning it may alienate developers, which would be too costly for Nintendo...remember the Nintendo 64...which I know prices were less, but still I think it is a needless gamble, and allows Nintendo to keep full backwards compatibility if they choose. 

I love your idea of packing Wii Sports and Wii Sports Resort on the system...but I think I would go for modified versions of the games.  Update the controls and pick the favorites from Wii Sports, Resort, and Wii Play as a collection of 10 pack in games.  I am thinking:  Bowling, Tennis, Fencing, Tanks (with 4 player support) Dog Fighting (with 4 player support), Boxing (with modified controls) Laser Hockey (with additional maps), Golf, Frisbee Golf  [One other game from the collection]  these games will be modified to support online play on Nintendo's new Mii gaming center to have out of the box internet play. 




EDIT:  Adrock.  I realized after writing that you didn't mean Underneath the controller for the Slide bar and D-Pad.  But I still don't know how the layout of an analog and D-Pad on the Nunchuk would work without being uncomfortable...or 4 buttons upfront on the controller.


I am keeping to the KEEP IT SIMPLE approach.  Slight modifications that add big impact.  2 new face buttons add to the functionality of lack of buttons without going too complex.  Black and Milds idea for camera tracking the Remote on the sensor bar doesn't add any new level of complexity just perfects motion control.  Continued support for the Wii Speak inside the new sensor bar just means out of the box support for voice communication that can be built into the Wii 2.0 system from the start.


Many people are throwing the lets give every option available approach...which is awesome for dreaming about the best system.  In my approach I want to create what I think is most plausible...or better yet the minimum standard for the next system. 

[Adrock]

I still think buttons on the Wii remote are not as BIG of a problem as people think...

I think it does to developers. Give them more buttons and let them decide what to do with them. If they want to simplify the controls, they can. If they want to employ straight traditional controls, they can. Mix and match? Sure, why not? Nintendo shouldn't be forcing limitations (optional peripherals, fewer buttons) on 3rd parties as that's unfair and alienating. I prefer Nintendo's approach with the DS. There are so many options, but none of them are optional to the consumer; it all comes with every DS. Some of the most inventive games came from developers deciding on their own to try something new, but they always had the option not to.

I propose just adding X and Y back into the design.  Think of the Gamecube controllers peanut shaped buttons.  Now have 2 of those buttons surrounding the bottom left and right of the Big A button.  Simple.  You now have access to 4 face buttons easily holding the Wii remote in the default pointer position and then the tigger B button.  (Down, A, Z, X and B)  Add to that the Analog nunchuk and you have 7 buttons analog control AND pointer control.  Less buttons than the traditional controllers but more than enough buttons for games...and classic controller support is still supported.

Ugh, try playing a fighting game with Down on the D-Pad as anything for example. The point of my controller suggestion was to negate the Classic Controller. It shouldn't exist. It's extra and not everyone has one. On the Wii, it costs $100 for a Wii remote, nunchuck, Motion Plus, and a classic controller. That's asking a lot from consumers and even more from 3rd parties who have to decide to support one or some or all of those options. Who wants to deal with that sh*t? 

I could see dropping the D-Pad for the analog slider, but wonder if that is really necessary.

For my suggestion, the point would be that the controller could double as just a traditional controller thus allowing developers to make whatever game they want without fear that console owners won't have this piece or that add-on. One controller. One. And (not that you asked) I chose the analog slider because it's flat. You can still hold the N6 remote the same way as a Wii remote without this big analog stick protruding from the front of it.

Now, I like disc based games being faster and requiring no load times, but I think abandoning it may alienate developers, which would be too costly for Nintendo...remember the Nintendo 64...which I know prices were less, but still I think it is a needless gamble, and allows Nintendo to keep full backwards compatibility if they choose.

How so? For 6 years, 3rd parties never balked at using cards on DS. As I stated in my last post, "Most modern games do not exceed a [dual-layered] DVD. For comparison's sake, you can get 8GB SD card (not saying they should use SD cards for storage, I mean something proprietary like DS) for $15 on Amazon. In a year, it'll be even less and on top of that, 3rd parties buy in bulk so it wouldn't even be that much. Games less than 4GB or 2GB (don't balk, Metroid Prime is less than 2GB and that game is massive) would require even cheaper cards" (Note: I originally said double sided DVD, but I meant dual-layered).

And I like backwards compatibility though I've barely used it on every piece of hardware that supported legacy games. However, I, personally, would bite the bullet and sacrifice the short term benefits of backwards compatibility for things that ultimately benefits the new console for its entire lifespan like durability and faster loading. It would be silly for Nintendo to continue using discs just for backwards compatibility. It's hardly a necessity, especially when a viable alternative with clear advantages is also available.

EDIT:  Adrock.  I realized after writing that you didn't mean Underneath the controller for the Slide bar and D-Pad.  But I still don't know how the layout of an analog and D-Pad on the Nunchuk would work without being uncomfortable...or 4 buttons upfront on the controller.

I blame my scanner. Sorry, dude. You would have gotten a pretty picture.

Anyway, 3DS has the analog slider above the D-Pad. I think that will work just fine so I would think a similar set-up on the "nunchuck" would as well. I would imagine that either the analog stick or D-Pad is being used primarily, more so the former with the D-pad serving secondary functions (i.e. Visor selection in Metroid Prime). The 4 buttons at the top are just the D-Pad split into A/B/X/Y (though I'd imagine each would at least be as large as 1 and 2 on the Wii controller). Also, I suggested adding buttons 3 and 4 so when the remote was turned on its side, it would have more functionality with A/B/X/Y acting as a less than ideal D-pad, but the analog slider would still be there too. However, I could see doing away with buttons 1/2/3/4 and axing the whole turning the controller on its side thing entirely since the standard Remote and secondary controller would be capable of doing the same thing.

[BlackNMild2k1]

EDIT:  Adrock.  I realized after writing that you didn't mean Underneath the controller for the Slide bar and D-Pad.  But I still don't know how the layout of an analog and D-Pad on the Nunchuk would work without being uncomfortable...or 4 buttons upfront on the controller.

[Spak-Spang]

Black and Mild that looks horribly uncomfortable.

And Adrock I completely understand your opinion on fighting games...and I understand the value of wanting to eliminate the extra controllers.  I feel that pain as well. 

Though, I also don't want to play a fighting game with a cramped controller which the Wii remote may end up being...nor do I want to play a fighter with a split controller...but that may be easier than the cramped controller. 

Black and Mild, I haven't used that controller yet...but man the X and o buttons are horribly placed...can you press those easily?  Not without taking your thumb off the analog stick.  And the D-Pad and Analog stick are also unusable together...but at least using the D-Pad will allow you to easily push the buttons.

I dunno...placing too many buttons may give options, but also can create sloppy and more importantly uncomfortable controls.  The Wii had the problem already with 1 and 2 buttons being used but un-pressable. I want to eliminate that. 

We will just have to see what Nintendo does...I am hoping for the classic controller Pro to just become the traditional controller Nintendo will use even with the Super Nintendo 6. 




EDIT:  But I am being overly argumentative and stifling ideas.  I should stop. Really everyone that has posted has had great unique ideas that bring their own strengths and unique design choices to the table. 

[TJ Spyke]

On the Wii, it costs $100 for a Wii remote, nunchuck, Motion Plus, and a classic controller.

Just a minor point, Wii Remote Plus is the standard controller now. That eliminates $20 from your cost. Besides, any game that uses the Classic Controller doesn't use the Nunchuk at the same time (it would be impossible anyways since you can't have both plugged into the Wii Remote at the same time). On the name front, why wouldn't it be called Wii 2? The Wii has a stronger brand name among casuals than anything, so I think it would be easier to get them to buy the next system if they know it is the successor to the current one by just adding a "2" to it.

[Kytim89]

"On the name front, why wouldn't it be called Wii 2? The Wii has a stronger brand name among casuals than anything, so I think it would be easier to get them to buy the next system if they know it is the successor to the current one by just adding a "2" to it."
 
This is the exact reason for why I call the system the Wii 2. I mean if we call it the Super Wii or Wii 3HD or something then we run the risk of alienating the casuals. Hopefully they are smart enough to realize that the number 2 in "Wii 2" denotes a superior system to the current Wii.
 
More and more I find myself catching onto the idea of the Wii 2 having cartridge based games. Although I neve see it happening because the home consoles have evolved past cartridges, but I would be interested in how a cartridge slot would influence the size of the Wii 2.
 
As for the hard drive and other storage options, I love to be able to customize my consoles, so I would enjoy being able to hook up all storage options to the Wii 2.
 
http://gizmodo.com/5496302/the-right-hard-drive-for-you
 
http://gizmodo.com/5497512/the-future-of-storage

[BlackNMild2k1]

@ Spak dash Spang

I haven't used that controller either so I can't vouch for it's comfortability, but the X & O buttons were not part of the point I was trying to make by showing the pic. Just that a d-pad and joystick can co-exist on the nunchuck. Your not gonna be able to use both at the same time with out readjusting your thumb, but you can't do that on a standard controller either.

I might actually make a revision to my Nunchuck 2.0 design to include a d-pad and change the IR strip pattern. but I think the amount of buttons on the Wiimote was fine the way I originally did it.


@Adrock: your controller is waaaay too complex. too many buttons. Although who ever suggested the bean shaped buttons around the bottom half of the A button has a pretty good idea. I still think just adding a 3 and 4 button to make the sideways wiimote more SNES like would be the best way to go, but the 2 bean buttons(X & Y) give you 2 more button when using a pointer. That would also give you 6 buttons regardless of how you are holding the controller.

WiiChuck: A, B, X, Y, C & Z - you also have the d-pad(x2?) and the joystick.

Sidemote: A, B, 1, 2, 3 & 4 - and you still have the d-pad + X & Y(could be used as the up & down on the second d-pad from WiiChuck or as ZL & ZR from CC) if you want to reach.

Now you wouldn't really need a classic controller, other than you like the way it feels in your hand or want dual analog.   


Re: Wii2 as a name.
I doubt that's what they will call it, but calling it that now is just so we know we are talking about a successor system and not an upgraded revised system like WiiHD or PS3slim or the new Xbox360 revision 6.

[Adrock]

Just a minor point, Wii Remote Plus is the standard controller now. That eliminates $20 from your cost.

Yes and no. As of right now, only the Limited Edition Red Wii comes packed with Wii Remote Plus. It only eliminates the cost for people who don't have the old controllers.

Besides, any game that uses the Classic Controller doesn't use the Nunchuk at the same time

That's besides the point. Everyone should have at least one nunchuck as it comes with the system. Not everyone has the Classic Controller which creates problems for 3rd party developers. For simplicity's sake, I think Nintendo should do away with the extras (besides the Balance Board).

On the name front, why wouldn't it be called Wii 2? The Wii has a stronger brand name among casuals than anything, so I think it would be easier to get them to buy the next system if they know it is the successor to the current one by just adding a "2" to it.

True, but at the same time, to the hardcore crowd outside of Nintendo's own, the Wii brand name means shovelware, dated graphics, and gimmicky controls.

@Adrock: your controller is waaaay too complex. too many buttons.

Only if you think that 1/2/3/4 would be used in conjunction with A/B/X/Y which I don't. 8 face buttons is overkill so I agree in that sense. I should have clarified. My bad. I, personally, don't find 1 and 2 very comfortable to use in any set-up besides the sideways Wii remote as I feel like my thumb has to travel too far to be comfortable. Most games don't use 1 and 2 aside for auxiliary functions likes maps or menus.

I added 3 and 4 to give it more functionality. However, as I said in my last post, 1/2/3/4 could be axed entirely since the sideways set-up isn't wholly necessary. What you're left with, then, is essentially the Classic Controller split into 2 independent pieces with motions controls (and the analog stick in the primary position as it should be). That's ultimately what I would like to see.

[Ian Sane]

I think the simplest controller solution is to just pack the nunchuk, remote and classic controller with every system.  The reason we get all the waggle crap is because the CC is optional.  A dev cannot assume the player has one so they have to map functions that would be just a button on the CC to a gesture.  If everyone has a CC then they'll just go with what works best for the specific game.  Adding some extra buttons to the remote is a good idea but I don't think replacing the normal controller is a realistic solution.  The controls will be compromised in some way.  I don't think the two models are compatible enough.  The second you start talking about workarounds like using the d-pad for buttons and you might as well be in waggle territory.  Compromises and workarounds result in lousy controls.

Plus I really doubt that Sony will go with some sort of one-in-all hybrid for their next console.  We'll probably get the DualShock with the Move as a seperate item.  And odds are the Wii 2 will just compete with the PS3 and Xbox 360.  I don't think we're getting a next gen from Sony or MS any time soon.  So if the PS3 has the DualShock and the Move then the Wii 2 needs the CC and the remote or else we'll be getting inferior ports with crappy controls... or just nothing at all, like we get now.  Computers used to only come with a keyboard, now they come with a keyboard and a mouse.  The keyboard wasn't replaced, just complimented.  I think Nintendo should go the same route with the Wii 2.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Who was talking about the d-pad as buttons?

I thought my Wiimote 2.0 looked really good and was very reasonable. The inclusion of some bean shaped buttons at the bottom of the A also give you all the buttons you as the CC while in Sidemote style except for the dual analog. That essentially makes the CC not necessary 75% of the time.

[Spak-Spang]

Actually I think Nintendo needs to simplify. 

I think 2 controllers is fair.  So I propose Nintendo start treating the Wii remote and nunchuk for Wii 2.0 as a slngle controller unit.  When you buy an extra controller you get both. 

I have grown up playing games all my life, and I am not confused or baffled by several buttons on a controller, but I am getting frustrated with the amount of games that force you to use up to eight buttons just to play...and it isn't to add depth  just complexity.  When I see the classic controller of today, I am not wowed by its usefulness but actually saddened.  So I understand why casuals view controllers with several buttons as confusing.  And designing a controller with too many buttons, because you want to make sure you have all the buttons available for certain set ups is not the best solution. 

I love the simple design of the Wii remote and nunchuk...it just works for the brain.  I could not play if I had to waggle and move my character with the same hand.  So having an additional Analog stick or slide controller useable with the remote just wouldn't work...but you can say sideways it will work for classic gaming...but try explaining that to developers or people looking at the controller trying to understand it for the first time. 

Simple is better...and when the Wii remote was being critiqued the largest complaint was that just 2 more buttons would have been nice, because 1 and 2 were not well placed to use. 

The D-Pad addition on the Nunchuk with motion plus controls seems to a good evolution now that I think about it.  I think the D-Pad would never be used as a traditional D-Pad in that position, but could be used for additional buttons, and the classic D-Pad layout is understandable to people without feeling like more buttons. 

I am not completely opposed to adding 1-4 buttons on the controller, I just don't see that it is necessary.  But another evolution that does sound great that Adrock brought up is the analog trigger buttons with the digital click on the Wii Remote and one on the Nunchuk.  Again this adds function without the appearance of complexity...adding usefulness without sacrificing design, which is very important when creating a controller.  The Gamecube controller was one of the best designed controllers but it sacrificed usefulness for some games over design...you must be careful not to go the other way with the Wii 2.0

In the end, I like Ian's suggestion.  Package the Wii 2.0 with a set of all the controllers.  Let the consumer feel they are getting a deal and a full experience.  1 controller, 1 nunchuk and 1 classic controller.  Then sell the new Wii remotes bundled in with the Nunchuk, make the price $10.00 less than Wii remote and Nunchuk purchased now.  Then sell the classic controller buy itself.  Most people will only need 2 classic controllers.   Most people will only need 2 Wii remotes.  So that brings full controls for the new system to $75ish?  Right?  That is the cost of one game, at least in the mind of the consumer.

[Spak-Spang]

Sorry for the double post, and sorry for about to be somewhat contradicting post.
 
But I was thinking about Adrock's ideas, and I was thinking about design...and the complication is not adding more buttons...but designing it to work.  I still don't think we need many new buttons. 
 
However, if we wanted to attempt to a design that fits more of a classic controller on the Wii Remote and Nunchuk here is another idea...that is taken directly from Adrock's influence.
 
First, introducing the Slider from the Nintendo 3DS into the Wii remote instead of an analog stick, and replacing the traditional D-pad on the stick.  I like that the slider fits the thumb nicely and should create a nice feel for movement, and be more flush with the Wii remote than an analog stick.  This can give you analog control if you need it with motion based games. 
 
Below that 4 bean shaped buttons in a circle are the A, B, X, Y of the controller.  These buttons are small, and almost touching.  The form a hollow circle in the center that will be a natural resting place for your thumb...and allow you to easily feel and press any button comfortably.  I love the idea of having a nuetral place to put your thumb not over a button.  Also these buttons are close enough together to press two buttons at the same time comfortably.  Obviously pressing A,B or A, X together would be more comfortable than pressing diagonals together.  That still leaves the normal trigger underneath relabeled the T button for Trigger.  This can be an analog button with click function.  We now have 5 Buttons in normal resting place...that are easily reachable while using the pointer feature as a secondary analog device. 
 
Now on the other end of the Wii remote replacing the 1 and 2 button is...a D-Pad and a big A button.  (What am I crazy?)  No...this allows you to have a nice 4 button classic controller in the palm of your hands.  However, this gives the controller a nice feel without buttons on both sides making the controller feel busy.
 
On the analog stick you can add D-Pad like I mentioned before and have the same buttons.  This allows developers 7 buttons in normal play for controls.  More than enough, and builds a classic controller that 75-80% of the time will be perfect. 
 
Finally, you can still keep the port for classic controller support for traditionalists. 
 
 

[Kytim89]

Nintendo is in the best position to release a new console in financial terms. Sony and Microsoft are still hurting financially, so they will need a few more years to recooperate their loses, especielly Sony. Nintendo could release a new console and still have it fresh enough to make the PS360 look old and dated by comparison. I am looking at a reveal at E3 2011 after the 3DS has been released world wide (hopefully).

[Adrock]

I have grown up playing games all my life, and I am not confused or baffled by several buttons on a controller, but I am getting frustrated with the amount of games that force you to use up to eight buttons just to play...and it isn't to add depth  just complexity.

Here's the thing though: You can choose to not purchase or even play those games and that's perfectly fine, BUT you still want to have those games on the console because it ultimately benefits you. Allow me to explain. Even if you don't want those games, others do and they shouldn't have to buy an extra peripheral for compatibility. The need to purchase additional hardware just to play a certain game already makes that version less appealing than the ones on competing consoles even if you only have to buy said peripheral once. Extra is extra. Furthermore, I feel like 3rd parties are more willing to experiment (as they did on DS) and provide the kinds of games you may be interested in IF they know their other games can also succeed. However, they shouldn't be forced into shoehorning motion controls or wrestling with fewer buttons if they don't want to and they certainly shouldn't feel like releasing their games on a console is a gamble because the userbase doesn't have all the tools already available. On the Wii, Nintendo intentionally put these obstacles in front of 3rd parties and they responded by shunning the Wii and supporting the console manufacturers who didn't try to dictate how their games should be made. You didn't have to worry about complex games because you got nothing instead.

When I see the classic controller of today, I am not wowed by its usefulness but actually saddened.  So I understand why casuals view controllers with several buttons as confusing.  And designing a controller with too many buttons, because you want to make sure you have all the buttons available for certain set ups is not the best solution.

What about 3DS? No one is saying that's too complex or has too many buttons. It's one slider and two shoulder buttons from being the Classic Controller and I don't really think that's the difference maker.

[Kytim89]

What would happen if third parties were suddenly successful on the Wii 2?

[Spak-Spang]

Adrock:  You make perfect points.  Yes, I can avoid those games, and Nintendo did go too far in designing the Wii with limitions that upset developers.  Again, Nintendo is known like Apple for shunning functionality for design...where most of the time it is diesign that is sacrificed for functionality.

I think that is the balance that needs to be made...and I actually think Nintendo had the right idea trying to go back to the basicas to simplify control.  Unfortunately they went too far. 

As I said in my later post, I think I am going too far with my limitations and instead of worrying about the number of buttons and unneccessary complexity...we should be focused on balancing function and design.  The Nintendo DS and the Nintendo Wii Remote are a great place to do that.

The Nintendo DS, should be complicated, but it isn't really why not?  I think the single D-Pad, 4 face buttons work well with the thumbs.  People understand that.  4 directions and 4 buttons Your thumb only has 4 places each.  Then the shoulder buttons naturally rest under your trigger fingers for natural position.  those buttons become natural to press. 

The Wii is literally better at this.  Hold the Wii.  your thumb rests on A and a trigger on B.  You can't accidentally press the wrong button with the "right" finger.  Then on the nunchuck your thumb naturally rests on an analog stick for direction which is very natural.  Plus your trigger and middle finger rest on the other 2 buttons.  You have a natural position for 2 button presses. 

The Wii fails with the other buttons.  1 and 2 - and + and even the D-Pad are uncomfortably placed to use the controller in the default position. 

The classic controller is a mess.  Where do I put my fingers is not natural and often times changes per game, and even then I never feel my fingers have a natural resting place for the buttons...I can easily push the wrong buttons on games I am unfimilar with.  Even the shoulder buttons have 2 buttons to press that don't use 2 separate fingers to press but only 1. 

Going back to your idea I tried to think of an elegant design for the buttons to make a natural resting place for your thumb and present more functionality with a user friendly design.  I think the bean shaped buttons does that well. 
 

[Kytim89]

I would like for Nintendo to replace the analog stick on the Wii nunchuck 2.0 with a slide pad similar to the one on the 3DS.

Here is how the Wii Shop Channel should be improved for the Wii 2:

Faster down load speeds

The shop channel should also include an interface similar to Amazon.com. I find a game that I am interested in buying, but I am not sure about it. So, I take advantage of the reviewer page, demos and demonstarion video to help me decide about my purchase.

[Adrock]

What would happen if third parties were suddenly successful on the Wii 2?

Dude, you're asking the wrong person. Click here for answers.

The classic controller is a mess.  Where do I put my fingers is not natural and often times changes per game, and even then I never feel my fingers have a natural resting place for the buttons...I can easily push the wrong buttons on games I am unfimilar with.  Even the shoulder buttons have 2 buttons to press that don't use 2 separate fingers to press but only 1.

I'm inclined to agree. I have both a Classic Controller and a Classic Controller Pro and I'm not a terribly big fan of either. Clearly, Nintendo didn't really take the design seriously or with any intention that it would be used regularly. It's a VC controller first and foremost, evidenced by the D-Pad in the primary left thumb position. I'm sure like most controllers, I could get used to it like I did with the Dual Shock but I have my issues with it.

Personally, I found the American SNES controller to be the pinnacle of controller design for its time. No other controller ever came as close to being perfect for the hardware it was on as that controller. By today's standards, it's limiting due to the lack of analog sticks and the Classic Controller seemed to ape off the SNES controller's design, but failed to do so. One of the most underrated controller innovations ever were the SNES's concave X/Y buttons. To my knowledge, this has never been duplicated by any console manufacturer, even Nintendo themselves, despite its ingenious simplicity.  The Classic Controller differentiates A/B and X/Y by color like the SNES does, but each button feels exactly the same. On SNES, the convex and concave shape and feel gave the buttons distinction despite unfamiliarity. I prefer this over the bean shaped buttons because the Nintendo-pioneered cross button layout is standard and with good reason, it's the most balanced set-up for most genres.

[NWR_insanolord]

The six button Genesis pad (which, by the way, is way better than the SNES pad) also mixed convex and concave buttons.