Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[Deguello]

Even worse, both Natal and GEM will almost assuredly have lesser install bases than the Wiimote or even the Motion+.  If 3rd parties phone it in with 60-70 million, just imagine their efforts trying to win over 5 million combined or so.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I already have imagined, and if my imagine pans out, there will be alot of outrage from Nintendo fans and hopefully Nintendo themselves.

[ThePerm]

Yeah.  I guess you're right.  Punch Out is a core game, and it certainly cleaned up at retail this year.

You do realize last time any data was shown, Punch Out sold over 400,000 copies after it's third month on the NPD?  It dropped out of the top 20 in it's 4th month, but games out of the top 20 can still put up numbers up to 100K depending on the month.  Unless Punch Out stopped selling completely after it's 3rd month, it could easily be anywhere between 500-800K in North America right now.  Considering that the Punch Out series was dead for 15 years, these numbers are great.  Hell, if Punch Out Wii continues to have good legs, it could end up breaking the million mark, something the previous game, Super Punch Out, never did.

Really now, if your going to pick a Nintendo game at least make sure it actually did poorly.  Like Excitebots, that is a Nintendo game that bombed horribly.  Of course we all now the reason why that game bombed and it wasn't because their wasn't an audience for it.  Luckily Reggie remembered to actually advertise and build up hype for Punch Out which is why it sold well, unlike Excitebots.

Oh, don't use facts on the troll, Luigi Dude.  He'll never read it anyway or absorb the info anyway.  He just wants to sound clever and fashion himself as some sort of "fanboy hammer" or something.  You already put more thought into it than he did.

About Sony's Motion Controller and 3D TV... if they seriously think they should ask people to upgrade their TVs... again, then they're pretty damn crazy.  And it's not like their gaming division has a lot of money to throw around anyway, so I doubt this is their path.  Unless they ARE crazy and want to fund another expensive boondoggle like Cell.

EDIT: And, excuse me but may I interject with a "what the blazing ****?" about this rose-colored nostalgia some of you guys have with the GameCube?  Do you guys not remember just how hated it was, especially here?  Did you not remember the almost daily bullcrap about online gameplay over and over, the failed connectivity games, the blistering editorials every quarter about how Nintendo should appeal to adults with "mature games?"  I agree with Sixth.  It's pretty amazing what's been forgotten about the GC is such a short time.

GC was great IMO, i liked its games most over the other consoles, so it was made of win, I could have had their shaders and their online play, and their extra polygons, but gameplay in the end triumps over all. I have said it repeatedly Cubivore is one of my favorite games ever. A lot of the bullshit that comes out of peoples mouths is how much Nintendo should try to be like everyone else.

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Our basic principle is very clear: we're always trying to be different from everybody else. Many other companies might try to do the same things as someone else who's already been successful in a certain area: they think in terms of the competition, and they think in terms of how they can be better than their predecessor in any established arena. But Nintendo always tries to be unique instead. We always try to be different all the time"

Shigeru Miyamoto

I think a lot of the "failures" of the GC era are forgotten is because most people believe Nintendo was right all along

on the other hand the obvious strategy that they could go for is Divide and Conquer, and i don't mean dividing the competition and conquering, i mean going in more then one direction at once.

[BlackNMild2k1]

It's one thing to go where there is no path and leave a trail, but it's entirely different to purposely avoid a path or trail when it's leading directly to where you want to go.

[ThePerm]

maybe they don't want to go there

"Games are just a part of what Microsoft and Sony do, while for Nintendo it's your whole business. What do you think your competitors don't understand about the game business?
What's the shortcoming right now is the belief this is a numbers game--the more titles the better, the more developers the better. All the evidence one needs is in front of us to say that's wrong. It's...wrong in the form of absolutely killing the development community with failure after failure...We've already had a bloodbath; we've already seen a number of developers go out of business. And we've got hardware guys continuing to drive that.

What's even worse is we're driving a disappointment factor (into) consumers who have been voting by not buying out of disappointment with the quality of product being bought to market. I think if we all have an interest in this beyond tomorrow or a year from now, we want to be promoting stronger developers and even better consumer satisfaction"

Peter Main 2001

[Ian Sane]

And, excuse me but may I interject with a "what the blazing ****?" about this rose-colored nostalgia some of you guys have with the GameCube?  Do you guys not remember just how hated it was, especially here?  Did you not remember the almost daily bullcrap about online gameplay over and over, the failed connectivity games, the blistering editorials every quarter about how Nintendo should appeal to adults with "mature games?"

I distinctly remember the flaws regarding the Gamecube.  The Cube was overall quite disappointing.  But as bad as it was I find the Wii to be worse.  The Wii is like if Nintendo took all the stuff I didn't like about them or the Gamecube and amplified them while stripping away the stuff I did like.  As bad as the Cube was, at least I never felt the need to buy another current console.  Though the last two years or so of the Cube's life when Nintendo released like two games a year is about on par with the Wii.  The Gamecube does better because of the first three years.
 
To beat Nintendo, Sony (or Microsoft) has to make the Wii look as lame to the rest of the world as it does to me.  Right now motion control is a damned novelty.  It impresses rubes that don't know better and gets big sales.  But aside from non-gamer mini-game junk it's been pretty much worthless.  The best Wii games use motion control for lame-ass waggle.  The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks.
 
Expose this and you beat Nintendo.  Demostrate REAL motion control used in REAL games instead of just glorified tech demos and stupid wagglefests and make sure the general public knows this and you beat Nintendo.  You demonstrate this and you create disillusioned Wii owners.  You show them what motion control is truly capable of and the Wii looks like half-baked lamesauce.
 
But Sony ain't going to accomplish this with their flashlight.  And Natal as a concept probably won't even work worth a **** for even casual games.  Sony can't do it.  Third parties can't do it.  As lame as Nintendo's motion control usage is it's still the BEST there is and considering their track record that suggests that might be the best we'll get for a while.  The concept of motion control, at least with today's technology, might be so limiting that one can't expose the Wii's lameness.  You can only show what motion control is truly capable of if it is truly capable of more.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"To beat Nintendo, Sony (or Microsoft) has to make the Wii look as lame to the rest of the world as it does to me.  Right now motion control is a damned novelty.  It impresses rubes that don't know better and gets big sales."

The casuals ARE the rest of the world, and they see FUN.  Enough with the contradictions.

"The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks."

You've hardly sampled the library.  Quit making these claims.

Is it your turn to compress 5 years of your crap into a new post (if Matt can do it, so can everyone!)?  Have a Happy Winter Festive Season.  Sell your Wii, you don't appreciate it, so it's best you don't get anything more out of it.

[Peachylala]

Guess that makes me a casual. I can't play console games that much anymore because I'm busy with college and a JOB. Damn normal life, I want to be a core gamer!

the cores are a lie

[Chozo Ghost]

Though the last two years or so of the Cube's life when Nintendo released like two games a year is about on par with the Wii.  The Gamecube does better because of the first three years.

Well, I don't think it is completely fair to judge the Wii right now because it still has at least two more years of life left in it. I am the first to agree the Wii's lineup thus far has been severely wanting, but it could be that the remaining years of its life will make up for the mediocre first three years.

2010 might just be the year where everything comes together and the third party support that has been absent finally shows up en masse and takes everything by storm. 2010 will for sure be the year that Nintendo unveils the next Zelda title, and God only knows what else they have up their sleeve.

Maybe the last years of the Wii's life will be as awesome as the last year's of the GC's life sucked. We will just have to wait until next year's E3 to find out.

[Ian Sane]

The casuals ARE the rest of the world, and they see FUN.

Fun is relative though.  A lot of stuff you found fun as a kid you see as lame now because it's too simplistic.  A lot of stuff you find fun now as an adult you would have found endlessly dull as a kid because you lacked any sort of attention span back then.  To beat Nintendo, Sony has to make the general public lose interest in the motion control they currently see as fun.  They essentially have to make existing motion control seem dated.  Surely sometime in your life you found something to be really fun, later discovered something similar but more enjoyable, and then found that you couldn't go back to that original thing because from the different perspective you now enjoy it no longer entertains you.  It's that whole "once you ______ you'll never go back" kind of thing.  To beat Nintendo they've got to be the bicycle to the Wii's tricycle.

[Deguello]

The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks.

Well that's just wrong.  There is zero chance that Wii Sports Resort could have been done on a regular controller.  Period.

I think mostly my shock at the sudden retroactive love for GameCube was that most of the intense criticism it suffered had to do with market position and sometimes "kiddy games" was thrown around.  Now the criticism is that it's gimmicky or "destroying videogames" or some other boring nonsense.  And furthermore, Nintendo's output has been more or less identical on the Wii and GC, aside from the "Wii ____" games.  And considering the GC wasn't exactly a font of third party effort, The only difference I see is that the Wii is more popular and that it's popularity is the thing that annoys its critics as opposed to the GC's unpopularity.

But you do bring up a fascinating conundrum.  How can Sony convince video game buyers that their motion control is better than Nintendo's when they've spent the last three years mocking motion controls and getting their fans to join in, and they don't have anything interesting planned at all (Just based on the list.  I mean "Motion Party?"), and they already tried a motion controller on the PS3 which failed so badly they made patches for games to use regular controllers?

Seems like a wasted investment to me.

[D_Average]

The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks.

Well that's just wrong.  There is zero chance that Wii Sports Resort could have been done on a regular controller.  Period.

Pretty sure Ian is referring to obvious critical hits like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Mario Kart, Mario 5, ect..  And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many.  The top ten on Metacritic for Wii all are, or could be running on a console.  This is strange for a console who's core identity is "motion".

[BlackNMild2k1]

But you couldn't do pointer controls with a regular controller for SMG and you couldn't replicate MKWii's steering wheel controls with a regular controller and that was part of it's casual appeal.

[nickmitch]

True, but you could easily have done without those things.  Mario Kart will always sell, and Galaxy could've been tweaked to not need the pointer since it only mattered with the star bits.

[Caterkiller]

I refuse to play Mario Kart without motion, and there is no way those awesome pointer sections  of Galaxy could have been done with out the wii remote. Wii sports resort has me convinced that motion will be the future. Maybe not for everything, but I bet Zelda will be so good, we won't ever want to look back. Hopefuly red steel 2 can bring forth some of that feeling.

[Deguello]

The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks.

Well that's just wrong.  There is zero chance that Wii Sports Resort could have been done on a regular controller.  Period.

Pretty sure Ian is referring to obvious critical hits like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Mario Kart, Mario 5, ect..  And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many.  The top ten on Metacritic for Wii all are, or could be running on a console.  This is strange for a console who's core identity is "motion".

Curious Metroid missed the cut there as its controls severely stomped the previous two on consoles.  And Wii Fit, too.  But yeah, some of those games could have been on *ahem* "consoles."  (Did you mean console controller?)  Some games could have been made without HD resolutions or online features too. 

Just what are the top ten anyway?  I hope all of them apply, it'd be pretty embarrassing if even one didn't.

1. Super Mario Galaxy  -  You could argue that, but the game did have parts where you controlled things with the motion controller. You could say "better on a regular controller" but the very same critics don't agree and rated this game    higher than Mario 64.  Go figure.
2. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, The  -  The only actual GC port on the list, and one that has been on a controller.  Curious this version sold more, though.
3. World of Goo -  How in the blue blazes could this have been played on a controller?  The only other version is for the PC and it's mouse-based.  Better on a controller?  Fail.
4. Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Yes, here's one that can be played on a controller.  Better?  Maybe, maybe not.  But most fighting games get sold with expensive Arcade sticks for people who "swear" they control better than the regular controller.  Most people roll their eyes at them, though.
5. Rock Band 2 - How is THIS a console controller?  So motion controllers don't add anything but big plastic fake instruments do? And played better on a controller?  And would it have sold or been reviewed better with regular controllers?  Ask Rock Band Unplugged.  Also, epic fail.
6. Metroid Prime Trilogy -  And no way, not even the critics you are citing groupthink style agree with you on this, this game stomps the previous versions in control.
7. Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition - Ditto here.  Playing this game makes playing the old GC one and especially RE5 a pain in the ass.
8. Okami - Yes, this one has been played on a regular controller before.  It is a PS2 port, after all.
9. Metroid Prime 3: Corruption -  How about I skip this one?  We've covered this one.
10.  Beatles: Rock Band, The -  More plastic guitars?  How about I go down two more to get past the repeats?
11. Guitar Hero 5 - *sigh*
12. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 10 - Hitting buttons is better than swinging the club?  Not even you think so.

So really, only a few games can be considered "better" on a controller, and those happen to be built with it in mind, GC or PS2 ports, to be specific.  The rest, when made with the Wiimote (or plastic guitar controllers) in mind, are better games than their forefathers including control which the majority of those reviews actually aggregated by metacritic state. (Particularly RE4) And when you say "even better," apparently both the crtitics you just cited and the gamers at large don't agree, so...

Oh there I went again, doing more research into your own point than you did.  When I heard Ian say the "best of Wii" I didn't immediately think review aggregators for some reason.  I thought about the best games on the Wii that use motion controls, and none of them could be done, at all, on a regular controller (since that's the point of the thread anyway).  And then you pull metacritic up like it means something and...  Well, it just didn't pan out, did it?

... and hold on.  "Mario 5?"  Do you mean NSMB Wii?  I never heard it called "Mario 5" outside of Sean Malstrom.  I thought you hated that guy and his opinions?  Keep your friends close and enemies closer, eh?

(And sorry everybody.  It's just when something gets cited that is purported to say one thing and actually says the complete opposite, it's sort of necessary to point it out.  I'll try to refrain from TEXTBLAWKS in the future)

[broodwars]

IMO, the best games on the Wii are Metroid Prime 3, Zack & Wiki, Resident Evil 4 Wii, Smash Bros. Brawl, and Silent Hill: Shattered Memories (honorable mention to Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles).  Aside from Smash Bros., they'd be nowhere near as good with traditional controls.  Yeah, there are a lot of good Wii games that don't need motion control (like Mario Galaxy), but there are a lot of good ones where it is indispensable.  My problem with the Wii is that there are too few Wii games that use motion control for more than just the sake of having motion control, but there certainly have been games where it's been used tastefully.

[KDR_11k]

Pretty sure Ian is referring to obvious critical hits like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Mario Kart, Mario 5, ect..  And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many.  The top ten on Metacritic for Wii all are, or could be running on a console.  This is strange for a console who's core identity is "motion".

That is because most critics operate within the core value set, obviously they'll rate core games the highest. If you sort the games by sales (which is the only metric we currently have to measure their expanded audience appeal) you get a different result.

[Chozo Ghost]

Mario Galaxy could have been done without motion controls, but they would have had to strip out the pointer and everything it did. So it could have been done, but some changes would have been needed. Not saying it would have been better or worse, though.

However, what I think is really ironic here is Mario Sunshine is a game that would have really benefited from the wiimote. That would have made pointing the water gun thing around a lot more fun. So maybe if Mario Galaxy had come out on the GC and Mario Sunshine came out on the Wii then things would have been a lot better all around. I really don't think Nintendo will revisit the Mario Sunshine universe again considering how much the game flopped, but a sequel on the Wii might possibly be worth while.

But I think another great GC game that should get the Wii treatment is Luigi's Mansion. Not only would controlling the vacuum thing be more intuitive, but the controller also has a speaker in it which could make for some terrifying experiences of ghosts sneaking up on you...

[Deguello]

I really don't think Nintendo will revisit the Mario Sunshine universe again considering how much the game flopped,

It's certainly not a flop by today's standards.  6 million is more than a lot of games sell these days.  But you are correct, Wiimote pointing would have helped Sunshine immensely.

[broodwars]

I really don't think Nintendo will revisit the Mario Sunshine universe again considering how much the game flopped,

It's certainly not a flop by today's standards.  6 million is more than a lot of games sell these days.  But you are correct, Wiimote pointing would have helped Sunshine immensely.

Wiimote pointing could have helped the water spraying aspect of Sunshine, but IMO that was far from the worst of Sunshine's many flaws (such as being incredibly boring, lacking in environmental diversity, extremely laughable voice acting, Bower Jr., a completely tacked-on Yoshi, etc.).

[Urkel]

Expose this and you beat Nintendo.  Demostrate REAL motion control used in REAL games instead of just glorified tech demos and stupid wagglefests and make sure the general public knows this and you beat Nintendo.  You demonstrate this and you create disillusioned Wii owners.  You show them what motion control is truly capable of and the Wii looks like half-baked lamesauce.

So what you're saying is Sony needs to create games like this before Nintendo does.

[Ian Sane]

Curious Metroid missed the cut there as its controls severely stomped the previous two on consoles.

I personally would prefer it if Metroid Prime 3 had controls more like the Cube games.  I don't expect that opinion to be widespread though.  I always liked Metroid Prime's controls.
 
The only games that could not have been done on the Gamecube are the Wii ____ series.  Even if you would prefer the other games to use motion controls, they certainly could have been made without them and would have still turned out great.  Seriously, would Super Mario Galaxy not have been awesome without the star pointer stuff?  If it was never there you would never miss it and you would still think SMG is one of the best games ever.  Even Metroid with normal controls would have ended up comparible in quality to the other Metroid Prime games (ie: fucking awesome).  Mario Kart?  Yeah, we all played Mario Kart without motion control and we loved it.
 
The Wii _____ series however if they were released on the Gamecube would be embarassingly poor.  They are games that absolutely could never have worked any other way.  The other stuff, could.  Considering what Nintendo raved about before I would have expected better than that.  And it find it very frustrating that most of you can't understand that someone would be disappointed in the Wii because of that.  For me the Wii library has larely been sequels to Cube games but with wacky controls.  I had to buy a new console for that?  What a rip off!
 

 But you do bring up a fascinating conundrum.  How can Sony convince video game buyers that their motion control is better than Nintendo's when they've spent the last three years mocking motion controls and getting their fans to join in, and they don't have anything interesting planned at all (Just based on the list.  I mean "Motion Party?"), and they already tried a motion controller on the PS3 which failed so badly they made patches for games to use regular controllers?

Seems like a wasted investment to me.

I agree.  They've stereotyped motion control as a casual focused joke and then their own motion control is just the same casual focused stuff that probably influenced people to buy a PS3 over a Wii in the first place.

[BlackNMild2k1]

You seriously need to sell your Wii as you obviously don't get it.

Could we have played SMG w/o the pointer controls?
Ofcourse we could have, but would my sister/gf/mom/friend/2nd player have sat there and watched me play or even helped me collect the star bits? Would I be able to perfect my multi-tasking by running around and collecting star bits at the same time?

Have we played Mario Kart w/o motion?
Yeah, and the one with motion is the highest selling Mario Kart of all time, by far, and it keeps selling. Why? because of the casual appeal of using the controller like a steering wheel.
Everyone in the house can play and and there is no level of experience required to jump in and possibly win a race.

It's not always about if it could/couldn't be done on a regular controller, it's about can the experience be enhanced or simplified by adding a unique style of control to the game, basically taking what might be considered a little stale or more of the same and making it something new, exciting, immediately accessible and more intuitive to anyone that wants to play.

[Peachylala]

Madworld without motion controls would make it lose it's over-the-top entertainment that made the boss fights so awesome.

No More Heroes, same thing.