Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[TJ Spyke]

The Wii is significantly farther down that route than any Xbox.

Accessories are not the same as add-ons. The Wii hasn't had anything that could be considered an add-on (except maybe Wii MotionPlus).

Part of the reason stuff like Sega CD and Sega 32X failed is that they were pretty expensive (Sega CD was almost as expensive as the Sega Genesis itself). This is the same problem Microsoft is facing with Natal's rumored price.

I honestly don't see Natal becoming anything more than niche. It will see some support (even crap systems like CD-i and N-Gage got some third party support), but I don't see it becoming popular enough to be a big deal. Don't get me wrong, it looks interesting to me. A combination of price and what appears to be a distance problem (if you really need to be about 6 feet away, that will be a big problem for anyone who has their system in a spot with small spaces. I can't even do stuff like push-ups in Wii Fit because I don't have enough space in my room) will keep it from becoming the success Microsoft thinks it will be.

I don't think controls are a problem. The camera looks like it could register you walking forward by just walking in place, you move your hands like you are aiming a gun to aim in the game and you make a motion like you are pulling a trigger to fire. I don't know if this would work in split-screen, but by yourself I see no problem.

[KDR_11k]

But FPSes have you walking in all directions, not just forward. Even if not, walking in place is going to tire you quickly. A 10 minute jog in Wii Fit already feels like quite a workout, imagine playing a game needing that for hours.

[Deguello]

Well we already have a term for FPS that only go one direction, right?

I'm just not able to think of anything Natal is capable of doing that impresses anybody, and it feels like they are trying to go after non-gamers, which is OK, but they are sort of being really smug and condescending about it.

Everybody knows Videogames have buttons.  MS is like saying "Now we have a console for you, without any of those hard BUTTONS or CONTROL PADS, which are too complex for you anyway."  And this will probably be reflected in the games for it.

[TJ Spyke]

This was mentioned in the CAGcast podcast, does anybody else think it is stupid to navigate the Dashboard using Natal? Based on the E3 press conference, it seems like it would be faster just to use the controller. It seems kind of gimmicky and the novelty would wear off after awhile.

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, I said that somewhere already. It's just pure waggle and seems pointless to me. The Minority Report thing seemed cool because it was an interface that worked pretty much like paper on a desk, this is just a button based menu with waggle gestures shoehorned in.

[Urkel]

It was a bit disingenuous when they made that "lol no waggle" comment. Besides scrolling through the menus with waggle, the Burnout demo used it too. Putting your foot forward for the gas and brake is also replacing a digital button press with a predefined gesture.

I imagine voice commands will also be used in place of buttons. lol voice waggle.

Unless there's some hidden functionality to this device that somehow allows you to play traditional games with it, it's just a Balance Board on steroids.

[KDR_11k]

The foot is an analog button press but yeah, waggle.

The balance board allows you to hold a controller while using it, I think Overturn for example lets you move with the board and aim with the Wiimote.

[BranDonk Kong]

I'm sure they'll pack a small controller of some sorts with the Natal hardware, for such uses as changing the camera angle, inventory, etc. It could just be a pair of analog sticks, akin to the nunchuck, but they've got to have something.

[KDR_11k]

But controllers are too difficult for people!

[DAaaMan64]

I'm sure they'll pack a small controller of some sorts with the Natal hardware, for such uses as changing the camera angle, inventory, etc. It could just be a pair of analog sticks, akin to the nunchuck, but they've got to have something.

I agree it will have to happen.
 

But controllers are too difficult for people!

Well they can compromise, their casual games can never use the controller.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/061509-miyamoto-controller-less-gaming-like-natal.html

In an interview with Wired, Nintendo game designer and producer Shigeru Miyamoto defends the Wii's motion-sensing controllers and reveals that he is skeptical about the controller-less gaming technology of Project Natal which is coming out for the Xbox 360. After explaining that gamers need something to physically hold in their hands, Miyamoto refers to the Xbox 360's Project Natal and the PS3's motion controllers as "very basic technology."

"As someone who thinks of things from the perspective of creating interactive experiences, I really think that you do need something [to hold]. I don't think as a creator that I could create an experience that truly feels interactive if you don't have something to hold in your hand, if you don't have something like force feedback that you can feel from the controller." -Miyamoto

During the interview, Miyamoto went on to acknowledge that while Nintendo Wii's competitors, the PS3 and the Xbox 360, have shown at E3 that they're focusing more heavily on motion sensing technology, he believes that Project Natal's elimination of a controller is a big mistake.

"Looking at what the other companies have shown here at E3, it feels like they have finally obtained the very basic technology for doing motion control, but perhaps they still have to learn how to use that and take advantage of it in an interactive experience."

[DAaaMan64]

LOL well then Miyamoto, whats the secret? 3rd Parties are DYING to know.

[Deguello]

I tend to agree with Miyamoto.

Remember how the DS was the biggest casual thing to casually cause casuality?  It's still got 6 buttons and a control pad.

[Ian Sane]

This was mentioned in the CAGcast podcast, does anybody else think it is stupid to navigate the Dashboard using Natal? Based on the E3 press conference, it seems like it would be faster just to use the controller. It seems kind of gimmicky and the novelty would wear off after awhile.

Similar complaints have been made about the Wii.  I think it's just a flaw in how motion control is often used.  In the experience I've had with the Wii it isn't something to be used all the time but because it's new and hip it gets used for any circumstance where it appears you could implement it.  So you have situations where you're shaking the remote around for a digital input that a simple button push would not only suffice but would be easier to do.  There's a time and place for it and all three console makers need to understand that.  It should provide some sort of enhancement not just make routine functions seem more exciting to the easily amused and frustrating to everyone else.

MS is really out there with the no buttons thing.  I know Nintendo did a big song and dance about how people were confused about the controller and MS is taking that a step further.  But I think for the Wii that was a red herring.  I don't think the general public is as confused as Nintendo was acting like.  The general public can use a car or a cellphone or a bank machine or a computer.  We live in a society where people who cannot perform these tasks are at a huge disadvantage.  Everyone knows how to use an iPod but they're all too stupid to figure out a controller?  Bullshit.  The Wii sold with casuals because of the games being made.  Games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit appealed to this market where more traditional game themes like shooting aliens or fighting goblins with a sword and shield didn't.  Gaming is kind of nerdy and juvenile and the secret to connecting with the mainstream is go outside the stereotype.  That's why sports games were always popular with the "casual gamer" and Guitar Hero and Rock Band have taken off.  It isn't just nerds pretending to be wizards and space marines or kids playing with cuddly mascots or immature teens playing their murder simulators.

And why does motion control have to be so associated with non-gaming?  MS and Sony should recognize that Nintendo is restricting themselves but associating motion control so much with non-gaming.  There is a huge potential for motion control in core gaming and we've seen only a sniff of it on the Wii, mostly due to third parties not bringing the goods.  So why not take motion control to the next level and fully use it with core games?  Take advantage of the fact that the Wii is associated with casual junk and gimmicky waggle and show how to REALLY do motion control.  But instead they're just being trying to directly compete with Nintendo and the association between motion control and novelty casual game junk continues.  The console maker that truly demonstrates the full potential of motion control will crush the others.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"So why not take motion control to the next level and fully use it with core games?"

Cuz there's lots of money in the non-gaming pie, and MS/Sony know they don't have the talent and resources to take full advantage of it without alienating their existing audience, which is currently their only cash source at the moment.

Nintendo is the only one in any practical position to do it since they've been slowly ramping up the Wii platform since the beginning by making a motion-enabled remote control the standard object to be held by the consumer from the beginning, and not shoehorning cameras and wands into an entrenched market.

[KDR_11k]

Using motion controls in core games is a contradiction, core games are defined as not caring much about controls (or at least not nearly as much as graphics). That's why I object to the use of core as the opposite to casual, they're independent concepts. Currently veteran gamers are mostly served by core games but that may yet change. Red Steel 2 is not a core game, its big feature is that it uses the WMP and all that, it doesn't matter that it's in a genre for veteran gamers.

I'm waiting for Dynamic Slash because I think Sandlot has shown a lot of experience in properly utilizing the controls they are given and making games around those controls. EDF had gigantic enemies to compensate for the natural inaccuracy of the dual analog aiming, Chou Soujuu Mecha MG turned the touchscreen controls into a vital part of the game. Too bad nothing new was shown since the October conference.

[Ian Sane]

Using motion controls in core games is a contradiction, core games are defined as not caring much about controls (or at least not nearly as much as graphics). That's why I object to the use of core as the opposite to casual, they're independent concepts. Currently veteran gamers are mostly served by core games but that may yet change. Red Steel 2 is not a core game, its big feature is that it uses the WMP and all that, it doesn't matter that it's in a genre for veteran gamers.

Let's not play the "open interpretation of terms" game.  You know what I mean.  I mean games targetted at the old market.  Something like Metroid Prime 3 that is clearly aimed at the old market and makes full use of motion control.  It demonstrates the potential for motion control to be used for games like that.

Or maybe this is a better way to put it: the goal should be for motion control to benefit ALL games for ALL types of audiences and not just be associated with casual stuff.  MS and Sony, much like most Wii third parties, are treating it like some novelty to attract grandmas while the "real" games continue to use the controller.  Maybe motion control isn't quite suited to be the standard like Nintendo talks about.  But we're not really seeing a full effort to test that.  It's being treated like a novelty.

[kraken613]

You have to watch this!

http://video.ign.com/dor/articles/960019/ign-originals/videos/projectmilo_spc_070209.html

LOL

[BlackNMild2k1]

That was kinda funny, but the video would only load and play while I was moving the mouse... the sound would play normally though.

[ThePerm]

i had a game like that years ago that came with my first webcam, nothing revolutionary or special

[Smash_Brother]

Buttons are good. They allow a player to turn a slight tightening of a finger tendon into a command issued on screen.

Making it so every command needs to be a gesture would literally be the worst thing to ever happen to gaming. How could you play an FPS and switch weapons while simultaneously strafing while jumping and taking aim at an enemy, and then how do you actually SHOOT?

Or for a more apt analogy, how do you throw a pitch that you want to be an outside curveball, thrown underhanded?

[Deguello]

http://www.destructoid.com/stephen-colbert-demoes-the-ex-xbox-136889.phtml#ext

This is a funny video, that, while satirical, totally stabs at the whole heart of Natal's assumption of everybody's incompetence at video games, and also sorta makes fun that Microsoft had literally nothing to show as far as games for the device.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.videogamer.com/news/rare_shooters_will_work_on_natal.html

Speaking to VideoGamer.com Rare design director George Andreas has revealed that while it may not be immediately obvious how a first-person shooter would work with Natal, it's just a case of having to rethink how you approach the particular design problems.

"We’re learning a lot of stuff about Natal every day, and there are many types of experiences that can be created with that technology. You just need to be able to rethink how you approach those particular design problems," said Andreas.

"To take a shooter, as an example, you would just have to rethink the way a shooter works," explained Andreas. "Shooters work the way they do at the moment because they’re based around the original Xbox 360 controller. You throw that away, you throw that interface away and here’s a completely different interface – now how do we create a shooter for this? Does it mean that you have to run, strafe, turn, throw grenades in the way that you’re used to? Maybe not. Maybe there’s another way of doing shooters."

He added: "You’re probably not going to get exactly the same experience that you do with a conventional controller, but that could also be a very good thing. There may be new avenues there that people haven’t explored yet that might open the product up to an even broader audience. We don’t know."

Andreas concluded: "So, can you do a shooter on Natal? Of course you can. Will it be exactly the same as something you’re used to on a control pad? The answer to that is probably not, but does that mean it’s better or worse? Well we’ll see what we can do."

Natal is currently expected to be released in 2010.

Ohh this is gonna be fun
::makes gun shape with hand::
"Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew"

[KDR_11k]

The shooter is the genre that needs the least changing on the Wii but the same rethinking issue applies to e.g. brawlers that want to use the Wii controls in a meaningful way.

[EasyCure]

So FPS devs need to innovate? Love to see how that turns out.

Rail-shooters cometh..