Topic: Sin & Punishment 2 Coming in 2010?

[KDR_11k]

How is the third party support ANY different than it has been the entire Wii life cycle?  It's still EA and Ubisoft providing most of the support which is mostly junk.  It's still PS2 or PSP ports.  It's still spin-offs, usually of the on-rails shooter variety, while the PS3 and X360 get the REAL game.

The Conduit. The Grinder. Red Steel 2. Rabbids Go Home. Silent Hill: Shattered Memories (the PSP version is the port this time, the Wii is the main game, if the PSP thing is even still going). Muramasa. FFCC Crystal Bearers.

Obviously all these in addition to Nintendo's own first and second party titles.

[Ian Sane]

You give me a list of third party stuff to sell your point but to me it sells my point.

HVS is the exception, showing enthusiasm in the Wii that no one aside from Nintendo seems to have.  But The Conduit has been in development for a while.  High Voltage's support is not something new.  And they are still unproven, though I am interested.

Then you list Ubisoft games.  Ubisoft has always supported the Wii and with pretty lame ass stuff too.  Red Steel 2?  The first game gets creamed in reviews and I'm supposed to assume the sequel will be worthwhile?

Silent Hill is a remake of a PS1 game.  It probably will be good but the main Silent Hill series appears to be on the other consoles.  Again this just seems like the same routine as before.  Spin-offs and side projects and stuff like that goes to the Wii.  The REAL stuff goes to the other consoles.

Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles is, again, a spinoff of a series where the main games are on the other consoles.

Muramasa is unique and looks like it has potential.  It still is very typical of the Wii in that it's an obscure title that would not stand out on the other consoles because of their superior third party support.  Games like this and Mad World and No More Heroes are the more minor niche titles that have their audience and supplement the bigger third party titles.  They're supportive titles and are not suited to carry the third party lineup.  Last gen would you have described God Hand and Shin Megami Tensei as major PS2 third party titles?  No, they're niche titles that have a hardcore fanbase that really eats them up.  But they're not the big guns.

I don't see how this is any different than what the Wii has typically had for third party support.  And if I didn't find it acceptable then why would I suddenly change my tune now?

[Nick DiMola]

Silent Hill is not a remake of a PS1 game. It is a reimagination of the first game in the series. They are completely different, think Zero Mission. It's actually really good, and totally mainline. After playing it, I can assure you it will be the best SH ever.

Red Steel 2 and Red Steel 1 shouldn't even share the same franchise. They are totally different games, of which the second is so vastly superior it's ridiculous.

The Conduit played great. Not sure what it's like on the whole, but it was very enjoyable at E3.

I'm curious, did you read our impressions Ian? There were a lot of great games on the show floor. They might not all be scheduled for 09, but there was plenty to look forward to. Who cares if they are big name games? If it's fun, the series really shouldn't matter.

[Spak-Spang]

The point is last year we were getting subpar ports and either casual games or poorly designed original titles.

Now, Nintendo Wii is getting several high quality exclusive titles, games geared toward the traditional market/ core gaming market...and Nintendo has casual games coming out.

Nintendo with its 3rd party support has the strongest VARIETY of games coming out.  I think that is pretty impressive and the Wii appears to be a much stronger system this year than last, and it can be argued its lineup is stronger than both the PS3 and Xbox 360s.

Now the lineup may not be games you will enjoy but it is a lineup of games I would personally enjoy.

[NWR_pap64]

Let's be honest for a sec... Should we even categorize Wii Sports Resort and even New Super Mario Bros. Wii as "casual games"? I think the correct term should be "bridge game" since both games appeal to many gamers and audiences.

Many gamers are excited for Wii Sports Resort because MotionPlus adds a lot of depth and ingenuity to the sports genre and casual gamers will see a lot of universal appeal in its activities. New Super Mario Bros. Wii will make fans of classic Mario games happy while new gamers can enjoy the characters and easy of play.

It seems that the only casual game Nintendo has is Wii Fit Plus. So even Nintendo is releasing more in-depth games where everyone can have fun without any labels involved.

And we don't even know if Nintendo has more announcements on the way, since they love to appear one day and say "X game is coming out Y day".

[broodwars]

Let's be honest for a sec... Should we even categorize Wii Sports Resort and even New Super Mario Bros. Wii as "casual games"? I think the correct term should be "bridge game" since both games appeal to many gamers and audiences.

Many gamers are excited for Wii Sports Resort because MotionPlus adds a lot of depth and ingenuity to the sports genre and casual gamers will see a lot of universal appeal in its activities. New Super Mario Bros. Wii will make fans of classic Mario games happy while new gamers can enjoy the characters and easy of play.

It seems that the only casual game Nintendo has is Wii Fit Plus. So even Nintendo is releasing more in-depth games where everyone can have fun without any labels involved.

If I had Wii as my only system, I'd be pretty annoyed at Nintendo and the 3rd parties for so many of these titles slipping into 2010 and onward.  There's only so long they can keep using that excuse of "well, we didn't see the popularity of the Wii coming", and the whole concept of the Wii is for shorter development cycles and lower budgets.  Looking over 2009 as a whole, though, there are enough titles to satisfy me as a Wii owner using it as a secondary console.  We have The Conduit on the horizon; Arc Rise Fantasia; Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles; Dead Space Extraction; and maybe even Fragile (though I doubt it).  I might even pick up New Super Mario Bros. Wii if it isn't 2 hours long like its predecessor, and I still need to pick up Punch Out; Deadly Creatures; and the Metroid Prime trilogy collection.  I've probably forgotten a few games I was interested in as well.

Is Wii 3rd Party Support where I'd like it?  No, but it's a far cry from last year.

[Nick DiMola]

I'll have to check my notes from the XSEED appointment I had, but I could've sworn Fragile is a 2010 game.

As for Wii Fit Plus being casual, I'd say that isn't quite true. It is bridge title in much the same way Resort is.

[broodwars]

Ugh, I must have accidentally deleted my initial response to the issue of Wii Sports Resort being a casual game.  Geez, now I have to type it out again.

I think there's grounds for calling New Super Mario Bros. Wii a bridge game, because that's an actual core Mario game that just has a multiplayer party element to it ala Zelda Four Swords.  I do not think you can get away with calling Wii Sports Resort a bridge game, because it's once again a collection of tech demos based on common casual activities for Wii Motion Plus.  Where's the bridge come in for core gamers, who by the time the game is out will have already had a chance to play games that use Wii Motion + and won't need Wii Sports Resort to demo it for them?

[Spak-Spang]

I only had a Wii and I was personally thankful that I didn't have the insane choices in games like the other systems...because I didn't have the budget.

But even still, I have probably over $300.00 of games I would buy this year on just the Wii alone.  So, yeah I think this year is covered nicely.

[KDR_11k]

Ian, my point is not whether third party support is great or not, my point is that there are third party games that are most likely worth buying in that timespan and you kept talking only about Nintendo's games for it. If you want to ignore a game because it's a spinoff that's your thing but Crystal Bearers looks to be an AAA (full dev and money commitment) title. I listed these games because the first impressions were highly favourable.

Muramasa would not stand out on other consoles? Hello? Remember Odin Sphere? That got a lot of attention despite being on the PS2.

Personally I found Nintendo's conference decent. Not a lot of surprises but not a snorefest like MS's either. "hey, here's a third person shooter!" "hey, here are three more first person shooters!" "another third person shooter!" "let's waste a quarter of an hour on Rockband!" I don't know if it's the HD graphics or something but all the shooters looked very samey.

[Jonnyboy117]

Overall, 2009 looks to be a much better year for Wii owners than 2008 was. However, Nintendo's second-half lineup is almost as thin as last year. Most of the really exciting games they have announced are coming in 2010 (which already looks to be the best year for Wii, by far).

I think S&P2 would have filled in a nice hole in the first-party schedule this fall, but I guess Treasure doesn't think it will be ready.

[KDR_11k]

Japan will have a pretty good 2009, it's just the delays...

[DAaaMan64]

Overall, 2009 looks to be a much better year for Wii owners than 2008 was. However, Nintendo's second-half lineup is almost as thin as last year. Most of the really exciting games they have announced are coming in 2010 (which already looks to be the best year for Wii, by far).

I think S&P2 would have filled in a nice hole in the first-party schedule this fall, but I guess Treasure doesn't think it will be ready.

I think Nintendo is gearing up for 3rd parties to take over. I honestly believe their intent was just to create a DS part 2 market.

[EasyCure]

You give me a list of third party stuff to sell your point but to me it sells my point.

more words

UGH! Same tired argument Ian. Same old ****.

You keep trying to put down these games because they're ports or remakes or spinoffs because they wouldn't ever get noticed if they were on the competing consoles lineup..?

It's like you refuse to give a potentially good game (or if previews of some of the titles shown at e3 are right, PROVEN good games) just because it's not cool enough for you. Is that the problem Ian, is it just not cool enough for you? If the Wii was the dominating console this gen (oh wait..) and had all the big named games that the ps3 and xbox360 have AS WELL as these exclusive spinoffs etc.. would they suddenly be qualified in your eyes?

I have a feeling that somehow you'd magically be ok with them, and thats pretty pathetic because you're denying yourself of these good games you might actually LOVE just because you somehow feel cheated and uncool.

I'm not gonna tell you to sell your wii, and i'm not gonna suggest buying another console because you'll come up with another excuse about how you shouldnt have to because Wii is the market leader and how you've been with Nintendo for years and don't find the other console makers as reliable when it comes to quality hardware AND software blah blah blah.. but what i will suggest is keep these stupidly negative opinions to yourself because its old, and its tired.
If you don't wanna give games like Silent Hill: Shattered Memories a shot just because its a remake, so be it but me and the other people here who have either never played a SH game (me) or are interested in the reimagining of the series (and don't see it as a buzzword) we're all gonna show our support and buy the damn game and have some FUN with it.

Sometimes i think you just don't know what the hell FUN is anymore man.. ****.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I told you he doesn't play video games.

Yet he continues to pass himself off as a gamer AND a Nintendo fan.

[Ian Sane]

As for Wii Fit Plus being casual, I'd say that isn't quite true. It is bridge title in much the same way Resort is.

Well, ****, if you're going to not consider Wii Fit as a casual game then you're pretty much saying there are no casual games at all.  When I use terms like "casual" or "non-game" I mean games clearly aimed at the blue ocean market.  This would include the NPC titles as well since Nintendo fans would likely already own the Cube versions and the idea is to sell those games to the new audience the Wii has attracted.  To me the definition is simple: would Nintendo make this game if there was no blue ocean market and they were just targetting the old market?  New Super Mario Bros Wii would very likely exist in that case.  Wii Fit Plus?  No likely at all.

If the Wii was the dominating console this gen (oh wait..) and had all the big named games that the ps3 and xbox360 have AS WELL as these exclusive spinoffs etc.. would they suddenly be qualified in your eyes?

YES!  That's the whole fucking point.  The Wii is the market leader.  It ABSOLUTELY should have the BEST third party support.  NO game should be released for every console but it.  Third games that are not released on it should be rare.  I remember the last time Nintendo was number one with the SNES.  I think a lot of Nintendo fans these days either don't remember what it was like then or are just too young to have ever known.  So they've gotten so used to such shitty third party support that the mere existence of okayish third party games is cause for celebration.  The Wii third party support at best is equal to the Gamecube.  I personally think it's worse but you could argue it as equal and I wouldn't think you're off your rocker.

But it is not very good at all.  It's the odd token game here and there.  And NO third party considers the Wii a priority except for High Voltage.  Everyone treats it as an afterthought.  Their best games go to the other consoles.  When EA announced Dead Space Extraction to me that was a fucking insult.  Some of you look at it as "hey we're getting a Dead Space game" but I see it as just shoving product at us because they don't respect the Wii audience and think we'll buy anything.  Maybe it will be a decent game but they're not giving us a real Dead Space game.  They could use the hardware difference to justify not porting the first game or giving us the sequel but we're not even getting a game with the same style of gameplay.  They COULD give us a FPS designed specifically for the Wii but instead we get an on-rails shooter, a cliche idea that has already been done to death on the Wii.  They think us casual non-gamer Wii simpletons can't handle the real deal so they dumb everything down for us.  It's just like last gen when you would hear third parties talk about the Gamecube audience like we are little kids.

And in the past Nintendo would acknowledge that their third party support was the shits and would try to carry the console on their back.  Now they don't because they're the market leader.  They don't have to try, so they don't, and I think they're damn obvious about it.

It feels like with the Wii that everyone is trying to take advantage of me.  Everyone is assuming that I'll just buy their product because it exists.  No one is trying to EARN my support.  The whole thing is like a big con.  How long can we string along these non-gamers and die hard Nintendo fans before the bubble bursts and we actually have to try?

[Peachylala]

I told you he doesn't play video games.

Yet he continues to pass himself off as a gamer AND a Nintendo fan.

He's a Nintendo fan stuck in the N64/GCN days... or he PRETENDS to be a Nintendo fan stuck in said era.

Either way, Ian's posts are great punching bags for Pro Daisy. Keep it up Pro, you make Daisy proud.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

buhubub

Is this really what we have in common?  To selectively embargo video games based on our ideological missions?

Really, I try to be a gamer once in a while.  What's your excuse?

[KDR_11k]

To me the definition is simple: would Nintendo make this game if there was no blue ocean market and they were just targetting the old market?

Is this relevant? Isn't the only important part "is the game fun?"? I enjoyed playing Endless Ocean so what does it matter if it's a blue ocean game?

Do you know what a blue ocean market is? It's one that's devoid of competition. The Conduit is a blue ocean game because it's entering a market that has no real competition going (Wii FPSes). The fitness market is becoming a red ocean on the Wii because EA and Ubisoft try to compete in it. Red Steel is probably half blue ocean because it does WMP swordfighting and it doesn't look like there's any FPS competition going up against it either.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

He doesn't know.  He's just drooling buzzwords while spazzing from frustration, believing the spazzing is justified.

[Ian Sane]

Is this relevant? Isn't the only important part "is the game fun?"? I enjoyed playing Endless Ocean so what does it matter if it's a blue ocean game?

Don't treat "fun" like it's factual.  If it is targetted at that audience I don't typically find it fun.  This makes sense because as a more experienced gamer it is harder to amuse me than it is for a newcomer.  This applies to everything.  It's why kids play T-ball and adults don't.  It's why when you're engaging in an activity with someone at a significantly lower skill level than you that you can get easily bored.  The level of complexity that Nintendo thinks is intimidating to non-gamers is the level of complexity I require to not get bored after two hours.

It isn't just "us vs. them".  It's that for me games targetted at the new audience are largely worthless.  They might as well not exist.  But since Nintendo doesn't take that into account I effectively get less games released per year than I did on the Cube because Nintendo "counts" all of their products as equal.  They don't take into account that there are two different audiences here and they need to provide a solid release schedule for both (or at least for core gamers; non-gamers likely are fine with what they have).

All that truly matter is that a game is fun.  But you have to understand that not everyone finds the same thing fun.  A simplified non-game is not automatically fun and a more complicated game is not automatically not fun.

[EasyCure]

As for Wii Fit Plus being casual, I'd say that isn't quite true. It is bridge title in much the same way Resort is.

Well, ****, if you're going to not consider Wii Fit as a casual game then you're pretty much saying there are no casual games at all.  When I use terms like "casual" or "non-game" I mean games clearly aimed at the blue ocean market.  This would include the NPC titles as well since Nintendo fans would likely already own the Cube versions and the idea is to sell those games to the new audience the Wii has attracted.  To me the definition is simple: would Nintendo make this game if there was no blue ocean market and they were just targetting the old market?  New Super Mario Bros Wii would very likely exist in that case.  Wii Fit Plus?  No likely at all.

If the Wii was the dominating console this gen (oh wait..) and had all the big named games that the ps3 and xbox360 have AS WELL as these exclusive spinoffs etc.. would they suddenly be qualified in your eyes?

YES!  That's the whole fucking point. Words+

No, thats YOUR point, you completely missed MY point in that it doesnt matter what comes out as long as its FUN. You're still missing the point of video games, the entertainment aspect because you'd rather abide but this stupid logic you have, where just because wii is the market leader and not getting certain games you're not allowed to like them. Thats what you come across as. Obviously nintendogs isn't for you, nor is wiifit or the NPC titles but Nintendo continues to make the types of games you DO enjoy and you still bitch about it.

Third parties are at least trying to step up and give us some fun games, and it doesn't fucking matter if its a spin-off of a game that appears on another console as long as its a fun spinoff. Yet to you it does matter to you because it just shouldn't be this way.

Its obvious the 3rd party situation isn't going to improve more than it has because devs still think HD movie-games are where the real money/art is at, and i'm sure we both know that as truth. The difference between us is i don't use an internet bullhorn to complain complain complain day in day out even when good news/games are announced and i actually buy and enjoy the games released for my system of choice. I'm 23 years old and don't have time for fanboyish bullshit about what market leaders should and shouldve have in their game lineup.

[Ian Sane]

Third parties are at least trying to step up and give us some fun games, and it doesn't ****ing matter if its a spin-off of a game that appears on another console as long as its a fun spinoff. Yet to you it does matter to you because it just shouldn't be this way.

I don't see it as third parties stepping up.  I don't see it as them trying.  I see them putting projects that require the least amount of effort and cost they think they can get away with.  I guess you are right in that I'm not just going with fun being all that matters.  I don't want to support this behaviour because it will just encourage it.  I guess I'm looking at what third parties SHOULD give us and consider that to present a much higher potential for fun.  Dead Space Extraction might be fun to play but the REAL Dead Space and the upcoming Dead Space 2 sound much more enjoyable to me.  So I want EA to give me THAT or something like that.  But if I buy their on-rails shooter they'll just give me another on-rails shooter.  Hell it's obvious the reason EA is making a Dead Space on-rails shooter in the first place is because numerous others have chosen that genre as their "low effort/high return" Wii product and EA is just following the trend.

I'm not a sucker.  I know they're offering the other userbases something better.  I know that's what they're REALLY interested in.  So I don't want them to be rewarded for just giving me what I see as a token effort.  If we demand better we stand to receive better.  We settle, which we're doing, and things will never improve.  And perhaps it is hopeless but, **** it, why should I let them jerk me around and take my money?

Though thinking about it if I buy a PS3, and buy the third party games on that console that I actually want, I'm supporting those same companies and supporting their business model of screwing the Wii userbase.  I, personally, would not be being screwed anymore though so I guess that's all that should matter to me.

[vudu]

Don't treat "fun" like it's factual.  If it is targetted at that audience I don't typically find it fun.

How would you know if you've never played any of the games?  You're like a little kid who refuses to eat something because it has broccoli in it.

Also, **** you if you don't like T-ball.  T-ball rocks.

[Urkel]

Ian: (rants)

Iwata: (laughs)