Author Topic: No wonder M titles aren't selling  (Read 31065 times)

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Offline VideoGamerX

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No wonder M titles aren't selling
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2003, 02:23:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ninja X
Oh, and the PS2 port was not changed by much. A couple new cutscenes. Wow. And look at its immense sales. If it could nearly tie a totally huge remake of a pioneering game in terms of copies sold, that is sad, my friend.


Then what is the big stinking deal about making ports for the Nintendo Gamecube? All we ever hear is how low sales hurt third parties. So, while Capcom reaped huge profits on Code Veronia's port to the PS2, which I stress did not sell impressively, EA has to rethink whether or not to send last minute ports of high demand sports games to the Gamecube. How costly can that be...?

It did cost a lot more money to completely reproduce Resident Evil, but you practically negate the cost of porting and pretend that profit is my argument. I never claimed that profit was the issue, but did go out of my way to make a statement that Capcom probably expected better sales. Afterall, they are the ones who voiced disappointment at not being able to sell PS1 ports on the Gamecube at full price.

It does not matter the difference between the Resident Evil remake and the port of Code Veronica. You only wish I didn't know the difference (serves you right for trying to belittle other people's intelligence. Learn that yet?). I'm making a comparison in sales. Code Veronica sold fewer than 500,000 units in North America. It did the same in Japan. It didn't come close to selling a million. When it was ported to PS2, it was a superior port. The graphics were top notch for the PS2. It was, "for all intents and purposes," a new game for PS2 and 90% of its gamers. If no one ever mentioned that it was previously on another console, they'd all assume it was brand new. It, bottom line, didn't sell. A remake of an old story in a userbase about one tenth the size of the PS2's did better. I don't know whether we attribute that to the fact that it may not have gotten a lot of exposure or if Resident Evil simply isn't stacking up to competition in the survival horror genre.

To even get back to my original (read: "real") point is that mature titles can, have, and will sell on the Gamecube. The Resident Evil remake did sell pretty well. It beat an appropriate counterpart on the PS2, and that's a shocker.

What really seems to be hurting sales these days is a lack of availability now. Resident Evil Zero is a hard one to find. And it appears Splinter Cell has no chance of doing well before it even got out of the gates. I think Nintendo's being sabotaged...

Offline Darc Requiem

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No wonder M titles aren't selling
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2003, 02:33:51 PM »
Reading over all your posts I have to change my position. MickeyD you were right, I was wrong. Nintendo should help with advertising. As quite a few of you stated even the old glass cube commercials showed consumers what was available for GC. Its not the same as third parties getting off of their asses and doing their own ads but its definately better than what we are left with right now. At least the average gamer would know what the GC has to offer in terms of variety and mature titles. Also an issue thats even more of problem, at least IMO, is the situation with purchasing mature titles. Rick, Billy, Bloodworth....the whole PGC staff what do you suggest? What is the best way to let Nintendo know about our difficulty finding the mature titles on GC and the run around we get when we ask about titles. Its obvious that its a Nationwide issue. I thought it was just be me but just looking over the boards we've all had issues when it comes to purchasing mature titles. From the "its not coming to Cube" line, the "why don't you get it for PS2/X-box", etc. I remember last holiday season a rep at EB actually suggested that I trade in my GC and all of its games to get an X-box. I was so pissed that I stopped shopping there...well until today when I bought Golden Sun 2. I only went there because she no longer worked there and I couldn't find it anywhere else. Should we write Nintendo? Email them? Call there customer service department. I mean we have to do something because this is just ridiculous. The average consumer would buy into the BS lines we just happened to be well informed and know better. The lack of ads cause the average consumer not to buy the games because they don't know about them, the retail problems cause hardcore games not to buy the games because we just can't seem to find them! I wonder if that guy ever found his copy of Skies of Arcadia?

Darc Requiem
"Fiery words fuel debate and debate yields understanding."

Offline Ian Sane

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No wonder M titles aren't selling
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2003, 02:43:07 PM »
"What is the best way to let Nintendo know about our difficulty finding the mature titles on GC and the run around we get when we ask about titles. Its obvious that its a Nationwide issue."

Maybe someone with good writing skills (so a staff member would be ideal) could write an email and we could all "sign" it.  Of course where would we send it to where the email wouldn't get completely ignored or just acknowledged with a form letter?  This isn't like one of those "make this game" petition scenarios.  It's a real problem that affects many of us and is actually worthwhile for Nintendo to take action on.  However would they even be able to do anything about it since the problem seems to be with third party games?  Maybe it would be better to address individual companies.

Offline ShockingAlberto

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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2003, 03:04:07 PM »
Well, I work(ed) at Rhino, and we always get shipments of M rated GC games.  They're usually on par with the number of XBox and PS2 copies.  However, and I speak only of my store, the managers often make decisions based on their own biases.  My manager actually went on the XBox Live retreat some time ago!  He, at one point, refused to give shelf space to Metroid Prime and to only sell it on request basis.  When he declined to give Zelda more shelf space than GTA3 (which has not sold a copy in months), I decided to quit.  I now have a job at Sam Goody, which is just as bad, honestly.  Our manager replaced our Gamecube kiosk with a second PS2 display.  The Gamecube games aren't even on the walls with the rest of the games, but are instead beside the Anime DVDs.  Turns a lot of casual gamers off to "Gamecube kiddy games" and "cartoons" next to eachother.  Kind of pisses me off, actually, as some of those movies/games would change their views.

In any case, Nintendo reps were always in and out of Rhino.  However, they always gave advance notice and our manager would always put up a Nintendo display that would put the "World Of Nintendo" from the 80's to shame.  They should make unannounced visits, I think.

-- ShockingAlberto

Offline VideoGamerX

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No wonder M titles aren't selling
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2003, 03:18:08 PM »
If PGC staff is too busy and no one else wants to attempt, I would volunteer to write the email (if this is the way to go).

I've seen my share of the politics floating around in the retail sector of the gaming industry. It's not fair to Nintendo, and it's not fair to Nintendo gamers (or gamers in general). I've witnessed employees working in electronics completely lying to would-be consumers looking at buying games and consoles. It goes beyond the simple "misinformed" employee who (quote for quote) told this guy wanting to purchase a Nintendo Gamecube for his kids, "They might not be making those anymore. I wouldn't expect them in stock much longer. They don't have any games, either. My choice would be the Xbox or PS2. The Xbox is better than PS2, though. It's like 160 bits or something and pretty soon will have all of the games. Right now the PS2 takes up most of the shelves, but Xbox will have this whole shelf and that other one behind us."

I really wanted to say something that day, but didn't bother because I didn't want to make a scene. The guy already spotted me giving him a hard look of disbelief. I might seem like I like argue here on the boards, but here is more of a place where it's not so harsh to push the issue on someone for what they say. I overlooked him, left the electronics section. This was actually at a Wal-Mart. I haven't even been back to that Wal-Mart sense.  

Offline Tycoon__

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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2003, 04:54:16 PM »
hum, there are more GC titles on my EBay stopre now.... because they learned to stack them sideways...

but in showcase months... you dont get a lot of shelf space (GC, XBX)-heh.. except PS2
I post on many forums, including: PNF, N-Philes forums, MFO, TMC and others.

Offline Tycoon__

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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2003, 04:58:29 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck

I would go as far as to say the Cube port was a "lets hope we break even on this project" because the developer is already sure it wont sell. This might seem like a bad way for a developer to look at things, but be honest, can you really blame them.
Look at RE for an example, it is a great game and didnt sell worth beans. Why, because to many cube owners wont touch anything that isnt made by Nintendo becase they assume it will be inferior.


FALSE!

They will touch good 3rd party, but RE and 0 were released to close together.. wait for RE4... more sales will come... ppl were pondering RE or RE0.. they were to close.
I post on many forums, including: PNF, N-Philes forums, MFO, TMC and others.

Offline snorgasmo

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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2003, 05:56:33 PM »
bottom line guys.. i think developers should do more marketing research...
-- COMMODE7 - we write about videogames.. or something...

Offline MickeyD

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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2003, 06:25:31 PM »
Thanks for your support Darc. This a problem nationwide and a problem with the industry as a whole. Lets face it the gaming community is not the same anymore once what was only hardcore geeks is now dominated by casual gamers that buy something if its flashy and looks cool. Advertsing is so important now word of mouth just doesn't work anymore bescause the market is not domminated by harcore gamers anymore that read magazines and are in the know about games. Most casual games want something short and fun and has lots of action and probabaly wouldn't know a really good game if it bit them in the ass. Terrible games will sell if its marketed right and exclusives just aren't as important as they used to be. Lets face it xbox has a pretty terrible selection of exclusive games with a few exceptions but it holds it own cause of its variety of games and lots of money it spend advertising them and its system. Gamecube is truly the hardcore gamers machine just like most people said alot of casual gamers don't know what gamecube is or told it was kiddy and to instead get an xbox.  But really could blame them if they didn't know what we know about gamecube and all they ever see is commericals saying there's no power power of x what would you buy. If Nintendo would advetise more they would make all the money back for ads and then some from game sales and cube sales. They do have one adavtage that mircosoft has if they sale more consoles they make more money not lose money cause nintendo isn't taking a loss. If more casual gamers saw cubes variety with ads and realized how cheap it was compared to others they'd give it a shot. I don't know if nintendo's new president will do this but so far I like his changes it does seem that he's trying to be more competitive. I'm not sure it will do much to help gamecube but hopelly nintendo's next console will have a much better game plan.

Offline lastexit

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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2003, 07:08:07 AM »
The discs used for Gamecube have NOTHING to do with third party support.  Companies like Konami are not DVD manufacturers.  Production of thin pieces of plastic with a little paint on them costs very little and is done by professional manufacturers.  The exact same data on a DVD can be converted and stored on a GC dvd in about ten seconds.  

The only difference is that GC discs offer copy protection.  It is still not possible to distribute cheaply produced copies of gamecube games.  This means that anybody who wants to play Resident Evil Zero has to pay for it in some form or another.  This is not true with XBOx and particularly Playstation.  It is a HUGE INCENTIVE for game developers and will become a bigger incentive over the next year as DVD copying becomes more widespread.  As you may recall, PSX had a few good years in it before everyone could copy games.  Once that happened, everywhere you looked people had books full of Playstation CDR's.  

As this was going on, Nintendo was publishing games like Zelda in copy-proof format.  Zelda went on to sell MILLIONS of copies.  Nintendo reaped a HUGE profit and other developers took note.  

Now, with music CD's, copying and online distribution has actually INCREASED sales of non-pirated versions.  This has to do with COST.  A music CD only costs $10-20 US.  A video game on the other hand usually costs $40.  Big difference.  Is that booklet worth fourty bucks? No, it's not.  And it's on sale on ebay for seven.  

The problems with shelf-space and stocking have EVERYTHING to do with Sony and Microsoft's business practices.  Blockbuster and EB are not exactly impartial companies.  they are corporate mobsters with EXTREMELY POOR TRACK RECORDS IN THE ARENA OF CUSTOMER SERVICE.  Blockbuster, for example, was nailed in court for systematically charging late fees randomly for about TEN YEARS.  For some reason people think these guys are a good, upright company.  They are simply LYING when they say that "gc games are kiddy, they don't rent well, etc."  They are being payed off.

Now let me explain a bit about Sony's advantage in the retail arena.  Sony publishes music, movies AND video games.  This means that they can group these items together (this is called a monopolistic practice) and use their size to "encourage" retailers into supporting them in ways that would ordinarily be stupid for the retailers themselves.  Microsoft is well known for doing this very thing in the software world.  Nintendo has in the past dabbled in such dealings, as well.  This is the way of corporate business.  

The key to all of this is realizing that Nintendo is in a DIFFERENT BUSINESS than Sony and Microsoft.  Sony and Microsoft are competing for the living-room box of the future that will control your cable, internet, video games, movies, etc.  They see a one-of-akind box in the future and both want to control it.  Sony wants to control it because they are CONTENT PROVIDERS, meaning if they own the hardware they can use it to push their content, making them tons of money.  Microsoft wants to control it because they are a SOFTWARE MAKER, meaning they can control the software that drives the thing and make tons of money on that side of the deal.  BOTH are using the BOX as a means of gaining an AUDIENCE.  This is essentialy the dot-com business model of find an audience at whatever cost and then try and sell them on a product.

it doesn't work.

Nintendo, on the otherhand, is a video game company.  They make a video game console and video games to play on it.  They license the rights for other cmpanies to make games for their console, too.  It is OPTIMIZED for video game playing.  If you understand computer hardware and software you understand that a DVD player is not the ideal way of playing video game software.  Nintendo offers a superior VIDEO GAME platform to companies who seek to make VIDEO GAMES.  Video game publishing is a cuthroat business and companies have to do what is best for their survival at any given time.  For the past few years that has meant cozying up to Sony and Microsoft and making as much cash as possible off the PS2.  In the coming years, as Sony and MS move away from video games, this will change.  This is why you see INCREASING support for the gamecube from third parties.  They are getting teams of programmers familiar with the Nintendo hardware for future production.  

Anyway, realize that this is all very complicated business and it is not all that it appears to be.  Companies like Microsft, Sony and Nintendo are planning for ten and fifteen years down the road right now.  Bill Gates doesn't think about 2003 when he plans his next move, he thinks about 2015.  NONE of these  companies are STUPID, SHORT-SIGHTED or NEW IN THE GAME.  

Try and think about ten years ago.  Chances are very good that you had never even HEARD of the internet.  Now imagine what will be happening ten years from now.  After you've thought about that for a bit, go back to your Gamecube and Playstation and XBox and really look at what you have to PLAY for those systems.  You should notice a very stark difference between the GC offerings and the PSX and XBOX ones.  There is a a reason for this.  These differences will continue to widen.  

I asked a friend recently what the best part of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City was, eg I couldn't figure out why he liked playing it so much.  He thought about it and concluded that what he liked best was the radio stations.   Think about that for a little while...


Offline Bloodworth

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« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2003, 07:25:06 AM »
I'm pondering doing an editorial concerning this subject.  If you have worked in the retail end, send me an e-mail and give me as much information as you can regarding how you get shipments, how the number of copies of a game are decided, horror stories, etc.  If I go through with it, I'll probably see if we can send it to a few companies as well.
Daniel Bloodworth
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Offline egman

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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2003, 07:42:49 AM »
lastexit--That's an interesting point you brought up about the GC discs. I asked a question about that ealier today on another thread when talking about Splinter Cell's truncated levels or for the GC. Is there some reason for companies to be reluctant to make multi-disc games, considering how common a practice it was during the PS era? Or is the real issue the possiblity that disc space issue has become an easy excusefor companies who want to justify the poor showing of their games?

The argument that companies were pushed away from the N64 partly because it was cart based seems reasonable, but the arguments against their current media doesn't seem to hold weight.

Offline MickeyD

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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2003, 10:14:48 AM »
I think you should write an editorial about this Bloodworth I think's it's a very important topic.  Heck I would love to write it for you guys since I feel very strongly about it and I love this site, but I think you'd probably do a better job since you most likely have better grammar skills and have experience writing for websites. This is such an important subject I feel because third party support has become so important. Gone are the days where who had the best first party software took the crown. Now it's all about who has more variety cause now the market is dominated by the casual gamer and not the hardcore. It's quite sad really when the cube actually has a very good selection of games but gamers have no clue due to lack of advertising and retailer reluctance to carry many titles. Nintendo may still make profit off it's loyal fans but even those numbers are growing thin they just won't be enough to keep nintendo going in the long run. They need to make more fans of their games and products and the only way to do that is to let public know what they have to offer by advertising more. It's not like they have to spend alot on comericals like metroid prime where it practically looks like a movie. All they have to do is make them simple like xbox commericals show the game footage then cube logo. That way they can put more money into actually buying more time slots and show them more frequently. It's sad how when nintendo makes a commerical then they hardly ever show it like the one where they offered a gamecube and one free game they should have been running that one like crazy like xbox did with it's two game deal over christmas. I have seen that commerical like maybe only twice. It's ridiculous it's like why even bother. Nintendo needs to get it's act together on this front and stop sitting on their hands.

Offline Darc Requiem

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« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2003, 11:11:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: egman
lastexit--That's an interesting point you brought up about the GC discs. I asked a question about that ealier today on another thread when talking about Splinter Cell's truncated levels or for the GC. Is there some reason for companies to be reluctant to make multi-disc games, considering how common a practice it was during the PS era? Or is the real issue the possiblity that disc space issue has become an easy excusefor companies who want to justify the poor showing of their games?

The argument that companies were pushed away from the N64 partly because it was cart based seems reasonable, but the arguments against their current media doesn't seem to hold weight.


Actually Egman than levels are truncated on PS2 and GC, its due to RAM not disc space. That said, I seriously think the GC version is a port of the PS2 game and not the X-box game. The GC is capable of better, I'm not saying it SC for GC should look better than the X-box version but it should look at least 90% as good as the X-box version if not nearly identical. Even if the levels had to be truncated, the GC has a third more RAM than the PS2, so the reductions should have been less noticeable on the GC version.  As far as writing an editorial like Mickey D, I'd be more than willing to write one myself. I'm a bit rusty when it comes to writing editorials, I used to be a editor for gaming site called Vortex Gaming On-line. If anyone remembers the site....I doubt it, I was VGO Flare. Anyway and editorial would be great, or maybe there could be a coordinated effort between multiple GC sites. Or maybe there could a roundtable, you get a few third parties together, let them know of our concerns and see how they respond. Kind of like the Budweiser Hot Seat (tm) minus ESPN, the TV cameras, and the famous stars....okay maybe it not like th Budweiser Hot Seat (tm) but you guys get the idea. I pretty sure a lot of this stuff is a lot easier to say than to do, but I'm pretty sure some of the forums members wouldn't mind helping anyway we could. I'd be willing to help. MickeyD seems willing, I'm pretty sure that there are others willing to help too.

Darc Requiem
"Fiery words fuel debate and debate yields understanding."

Offline Ninja X

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« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2003, 12:35:03 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: VideoGamerX


""Then what is the big stinking deal about making ports for the Nintendo Gamecube? All we ever hear is how low sales hurt third parties. So, while Capcom reaped huge profits on Code Veronia's port to the PS2, which I stress did not sell impressively, EA has to rethink whether or not to send last minute ports of high demand sports games to the Gamecube. How costly can that be...? ""


I guess EA does not want to waste time on a port that does not really sell well if it can dedicate more manpower and time to an even bigger project, like one of its Medal of Honor games.


""It did cost a lot more money to completely reproduce Resident Evil, but you practically negate the cost of porting and pretend that profit is my argument. I never claimed that profit was the issue, but did go out of my way to make a statement that Capcom probably expected better sales. Afterall, they are the ones who voiced disappointment at not being able to sell PS1 ports on the Gamecube at full price. ""


Porting does not cost that much.  That's why I think you don't know much about remaking a game into a graphical masterpiece (RE remake) and making a port that's nearly the same as the original.  Yes, profit was not your issue, but profit's the main thing.  A game like RE for the GCN must have cost a lot to make.  Copies sold were particulary good considering the game is on the Cube.  However, Capcom's main goal, just like every other company's main goal, is to make a profit on all of its games.  For a game that had high development costs and decent-sized advertising costs, the profits reeled in from the RE remake was not as good as Capcom expected.  
You want examples?  Let's use movies.  A movie with a budget of $30 million dollars that grosses $120 million dollars is a bigger success than a movie with a budget of $140 million dollars that grosses $180 million dollars.  The first movie made a $90 million dollar profit compared to the second movie's $40 million dollar profit.  In the same way, that's how the video game world works too.  
Not to mention RE set a pretty bad example for third-parties wondering whether to put big exclusive games on the Cube.  
Their way of thinking:  "Well, let's see, we want to put [insert big game] on the GCN exclusively, but will it make us money?  Let's look at a big exclusive game already on Gamecube...Resident Evil.  The game sold well considering the size of the user base, but its profits still were not as good as expected.  If we put a big title on this system, chances are it'll end up similar to RE, where we won't make a very good profit off it."
Chances are it'll end up on PS2 or X-box.  A few exclusives that are not Nintendo-related games do exist for the Cube besides the Capcom Five (good old Mikami).  FF: CC,  possibly Tube Slider, Super Monkey Ball...but not many of them are high-cost games.  FF:CC, probably a high-cost game, is probably going to get get some financial help from Nintendo themselves, seeing as how the company behind it was started by Fund Q.  A few games, like SC2 or MK: Deadly Alliance, are exceptions, as they are high-cost games funded by their respectful companies themselves.  However, these third-party games are few on the Cube.  Another reason why we see a good amount of ports on the system, as ports are cheap.  


""It does not matter the difference between the Resident Evil remake and the port of Code Veronica. You only wish I didn't know the difference (serves you right for trying to belittle other people's intelligence. Learn that yet?). I'm making a comparison in sales. Code Veronica sold fewer than 500,000 units in North America. It did the same in Japan. It didn't come close to selling a million. When it was ported to PS2, it was a superior port. The graphics were top notch for the PS2. It was, "for all intents and purposes," a new game for PS2 and 90% of its gamers. If no one ever mentioned that it was previously on another console, they'd all assume it was brand new. It, bottom line, didn't sell. A remake of an old story in a userbase about one tenth the size of the PS2's did better. I don't know whether we attribute that to the fact that it may not have gotten a lot of exposure or if Resident Evil simply isn't stacking up to competition in the survival horror genre.""


Once again, Code Veronica X made a nice profit, which is obviously what Capcom wanted.  A superior port?  If it was indeed a superior port that used the PS2's powers, the graphics would be more akin to the GCN RE remake rather than the original CV.  The PS2 may be the weakest technically out of all the three major consoles, but it does not get blown out by the other two.  A new game?  Maybe Capcom thought it a new game, but a good amount of gamers knew about Code Veronica.  It's just that a good amount of gamers do not have Dreamcast, which is why it had low sales, supposedly.  I have a friend (an RE nut) who bought Code Veronica X even though he still had Code Veronica.  Now, think about it.  How many RE nuts own a PS2?  The announcement that RE is exclusive for the GCN until RE4 came months after the US launch of the PS2.  Before that announcement, RE fans bought PS2, not only to enjoy other games on the PS2, but also to play the new RE, especially the heavily hyped RE4.  Plus, I doubt many of them spent money on a DC when they knew the main RE series would be on PS2 (before the GCN exclusive announcement) and that the PS2 was coming out within a short time of RE:CV's (the original) release.  The reason Code Veronica X didn't do so well?  No, it did well.  What are you talking about?  It's a Greatest Hits title.  It's a port that didn't cost a whole lot of money to make.  The only things that were relatively new in the PS2 version were a few more cutscenes with Wesker and a video of Wesker talking about some things relating to Umbrella, the only real addition that costed money, but not that much money.  The bottom line is that Capcom reached its main goal off a port it did not even market that heavily while the RE remake fell a little short of expectations.

""To even get back to my original (read: "real") point is that mature titles can, have, and will sell on the Gamecube. The Resident Evil remake did sell pretty well. It beat an appropriate counterpart on the PS2, and that's a shocker.""


Few did, but you are technically correct.  Resident Evil and Metroid sold copies.  But that's about it.  Maybe one or two more mature games, but I cannot think of anymore.  
"Appropiate counterpart"?  I do not think so.  The Resident Evil remake was heavily anticipated and marketed decently by Capcom while Code Veronica X was marketed in a very general manner.  Not to mention the technical aspects of the original were far superior to the PS2 graphics.  



So it's not amount of copies sold that matters.  It's what every company in the world is after: money.  Most high-cost games fare well, but some just break a little above even, like the RE remake.  Mature titles on the GCN can sell copies, but cannot reel in the money in in almost every cases.  The only mature title that made a very good profit on the Gamecube is Metroid Prime.  



    Edit: Metroid Prime made a decent profit, not a very good one like I mentioned above.  The copies it sold were a little below expectations.  


 
I got some killaz on my payroll.

Offline egman

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« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2003, 12:49:13 PM »
Darc--I thought the RAM was more for textures and effects, but I might be wrong through. At the same time, however, when I see 1st and 2nd party Nintendo games run seamlessly with huge worlds, I have to wonder. Then again, we are talking about a game designed with the PC and X-box in mind, and Cube does thing differently than those platforms.

Also, SC is definately a port of the PS2. There is no doubt about it. The thing that sucks is Ubi Soft themselves hyped the game as being virtually identical to the X-box/PC version, which it certainly is not. Comparison pictures that were floating around showed the GC and PS2 shared the exact same levels and design differences.

Offline VideoGamerX

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« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2003, 03:05:34 PM »
Well put, Ninja X. I understand your points and agree with them.

You know what's sad? Right now, I'm really hoping a game like Tube Slider sells well. It looks like a really good game. I'd go buy it if I didn't already get a game a few weeks back (Wind Waker... however long ago that was... 3 and a half weeks ago when it released). Deep down, I just know that game will grab medicre sales. I don't see it advertised... one good reason it won't sell. Those who are in the video game world of news and politics know F-Zero is primed for a release later in the summer. Those are all very good excuses for this game to bomb. It's "releasing too soon after Wind Waker" and it's "releasing too close to a superior F-Zero franchise"... and they'll say that it wasn't promoted well, so it got what it deserved. *sigh* I maybe jumping the gun, but that game would probably sell at least 600,000 copies on the PS2 (it should, there's 100 times that many PS2 owners in the world). I think it's great NEC produced a game that looks so good. They need support.

My only problem is that when I do get games, being the poor college student that I am, I make them count. I own Madden NFL 2002 (got it for Christmas because I had to have a killer football app to play until the disc is no longer reflective), Super Smash Brothers: Melee (what Gamecube owner doesn't own this?), All-Star Baseball 2003 (needed the killer baseball app, this wasn't it, I actually traded this in, though...), Resident Evil (love it, never get tired of the hopeless feeling that surrounds RE), Eternal Darkness (got this at a great bargain by trading ASB in ), Ocarina of Time bonus disk (couldn't live without it), Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (couldn't live without it). See the trend? Those are must-have's for me, now add to the list of games I wish I could get: Metroid Prime, Animal Crossing... and will want F-Zero, Mario Kart, the new Donkey Kong, the new Mario, and the new Zelda. The new Metal Gear game depending on what it is, will be a must have for me. Splinter Cell. The list is just too big for me to ever fill it. This goes without mentioning Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles. Third parties take a back seat in some instances because I don't have the money to buy it all.

And I bet over half of the people who own consoles on all platforms are like me....  picking only the essentials to make ends meet.

Poor Tube Slider.

Offline Darc Requiem

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« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2003, 03:16:37 PM »
Interesting note guys, have you seen the Def Jam Vendetta ad campaign? Its the complete opposite of Splinter Cell. I've seen the commercial several times and I each time I've seen it there is no mention of the PS2 version of the game. In fact at the end of the commercial there is a HUGE Gamecube logo. I just thought I'd mentioned that. I wonder how well its selling, my bet is that its selling quite well. Oh and egman, I could be wrong If I'm I have no problem admitting it. But I pretty sure the the levels were truncated due to the PS2's limited RAM. Thats why the multiplayer levels were so tiny in Agent Under Fire. It was built from the ground up for PS2, and it was part of the reason multiplayer sucked on GC. 4 players....tiny tiny levels.

Darc Requiem
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Offline MickeyD

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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2003, 04:02:05 PM »
I think disc size is somewhat of an issue for cube. Most games don't use a lot of FMV but what little they use may require a second disc while cheap some developers may not want to use a second disc to fit just one level on it. Capcom fortunately really doesn't seem to care and thankfully we didn't get crap compressed videos. But other games I can understand why they would want one disc like Tony Hawk. I mean wouldn't it seem kinda awkard for a skate boarding game to be two discs when all they may need it for is maybe one or two tracks I know people don't want to pop in a new disc for a game like Tony Hawk which is just a quick pick up and play game. Games that are more drawn out like adventures or rpgs don't suffer from this. I just hope in the future that companies use the divx compression technology developed by Factor 5 if they want to fit their games on one disc. I think Nintendo should have made their disc's slighty bigger in size that could have made a big difference. They should have made it a size in between the standard mini-disc size and full disc size. I think piracy issues would be even better cause even gamecube disc are a standard mini disc size you and fit them in a lot of disc caches that have a mini-disc indention. While gamecube disc are still hard to burn it still leaves the door open but it they were an in between size they couldn't fit in anything and at least we would get more space out of them. I've also heard about pansonic working on a tera bite technolgy on dvds. That could add tremendous space to a mini-cube disc  and have more space then a regular dvd. I wonder if this could be implented on the cubes disc now. I hope Nintendo will look into this for their next console at least.

Offline Ninja X

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« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2003, 06:21:37 AM »
Money can be an issue, VideoGamerX.  If you have only a good amount of money to buy a certain amount of games, chances are it'll be the best-quality games.  Nintendo's games are great, and often are the choice for gamers like me and you who are strapped on cash, along with a couple third-party games like RE.  Many third parties do complain that their games have to compete with Nintendo games, and they are right, unfortunately.  
I got some killaz on my payroll.

Offline Darc Requiem

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« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2003, 07:07:02 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ninja X
Money can be an issue, VideoGamerX.  If you have only a good amount of money to buy a certain amount of games, chances are it'll be the best-quality games.  Nintendo's games are great, and often are the choice for gamers like me and you who are strapped on cash, along with a couple third-party games like RE.  Many third parties do complain that their games have to complete with Nintendo games, and they are right, unfortunately.


Yes but thats a somewhat of crock Ninja X, yes they do have to compete against Nintendo games but the third party market is much better on Gamecube than PS2 and is probably a little better on X-box than Gamecube. Why do I say that, the number of titles. The PS2 has the same problem as the GBA there is so much crap coming out for it that a lot of good games don't sell well and third parties lose money. Even the big third parties. It was one of the main reasons Namco signed there deal with Nintendo, because they lost a ton of money being PS only. It was the first time they posted a loss in a decade. From a third party developers stand point, if they had a brains the GC and even X-box would be very attractive. Its kind of like the N64 there was less third party support for it. So if a third party put out a game and put some advertising muscle behind it they mad a ton of cash. The N64 is the reason Acclaim didn't go belly up. When Turok 1 was released it was the only high quality 3rd party game on N64. While things aren't as dire on GC as there were N64. The level of third party support isn't the same a PS2. If they paid attention, they would have noticed that if they give us a quality title we buy it and then when ever we see the companies name again we continue to support them. I site Acclaim again as an example after Turok 1 the quality of their titles started to decline but they had realitively high sales in comparison to other third parties. That Sega's problem, when they produced their own hardware they sold more titles, because like Nintendo, Sega usually puts out quality titles and everyone who owns the system buys them. When they went "multi-platform", they had to compete a sea of third party titles and because of that their game sales are down. They could no longer count on the sales from Sega fans because not all of them had the system they put their titles on. Take their most high profile PS2 game Virtua Fighter 4, they heavily marketed the game in Japan and even the US, but the sales for VF4 were about same if not less than VF3 despite the huge difference in userbase. You would have assumed that they would have sold a lot more units of the game but they didn't because VF4 was going against the huge number of PS2 fighting games. I honestly believe VF4 would have sold more copies on Gamecube. I know some of you are thinking how is that possible. All I have to say is look at the sale of Bloody Roar Primal Fury, it actually out sold the PS2 version of Bloody Roar. While it was only by about 10,000 copies, 100,000 to 90,000, when you take the userbase into account thats quite amazing. You know why it sold so well? Lack of competition, it definately wasn't the ad campaign for Bloody Roar. Its one of the best 3D fighters for Gamecube because there are only 2 traditional 3D fighters currently out for Gamecube. Now I may be wrong a VF4 could have sold worse on Cube than PS2. But I'll say this, if VF4 was out and I probably wouldn't have bought Bloody Roar. Hell VF4, is the only Sega game I own on my PS2. One final note, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle for GC was probably the worse Sonic title ever released, its not a bad game...but its bad for a Sonic game. Yet it has sold better than VF4 has.....now you can't tell that a lack of competition doesn't effect game sales. I wish some third parties would get a clue and release that. BTW Sorry for the size of the post. I really need to summarize these things LOL

Darc Requiem
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Offline lastexit

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« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2003, 09:59:23 AM »
A standard DVD can store something like 5 hours of high-resolution video.  I dont' know about you, but I don't want to watch five hours of FMV during a game.  That's WAAY too much.  Beyond that, the code/graphics, etc for a video game should rarely top 1 gigabyte.  That is a TON of data.  

Anybody who says their game requires a full-dvd is an exceptionally lazy developer.  

Offline Ian Sane

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« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2003, 10:45:35 AM »
Darc there are these things called paragraphs.  Maybe you should look into them.

I totally get what you're saying about Bloody Roar and Sonic Adventure 2.  Those games sold quite well and it was obviously do to the fact that they had slim competition.  But remember they also were released at the perfect time.  Both games came out during a huge Gamecube game drought and as a result sold well because the Cube userbase was starving for a new title.  Aside from being in the right place a third party game has to be released at the right time.  RE sold better than RE0.  RE was the game that broke the game drought and came out at a time when there was nothing else worth buying.  RE0 came out around Christmas the same time that Metroid Prime and Star Fox Adventures came out.  Note that the title that came out the same time as two major Nintendo titles didn't sell as well.  Now there are other factors but timing does play a part.  Super Monkey Ball came out at the Gamecube launch and was a surprise hit for Sega.  Beach Spikers on the other hand came out in the Japan the same day as Super Mario Sunshine and not surprisingly was a flop (despite being a good game).

I think the key to having a successful third party title on the Gamecube is to release a game in a genre that Nintendo themselves is quite weak at (fighting, FPS, RPG, not platform or kart racing) and release it between major first party releases.  A lot of games on the N64 were successful because they were released far apart so that once someone was finished one game a new one came out.  If third parties (on all the consoles) used this mentality and spread their releases out so that they didn't clash with other major titles they would probably sell more games.  I think a big reason why Splinter Cell sold better than Metroid Prime was because it was like the first Xbox killer app since Halo.

Offline Ninja X

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« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2003, 10:55:14 AM »
Darc Requiem

Yes, the third-party market is smaller on the Cube compared to the PS2, so you think if a third-party would release a quality game, it would sell good provided it had marketng behind it.  That's probably true, but the PS2 has the largest userbase.  If a third-party game were to achieve financial success on the PS2, PS2 gamers would most likely remember that game or the series that game is on; thus, any sequel or prequel produced for that game will sell just basedo because of the predecessor.  Sounds confusing?  Here's an example:  
Devil May Cry.  Devil May Cry 1 sold well and was renowned as a great action game.  More than a year later, the sequel would come out.  Now, the sequel, by some critics and DMC fans alike, sucks.  But it still sells like crazy and looks to surpass DMC, last time I checked the TRST data.  
If a game can hit success on the PS2, any more versions or sequels following that game are practically guaranteed for success.  You want more examples?  GTA, Metal Gear Solid, Red Faction, Smackdown, etc.
The third-party market on the GCN is weak on sales.  The Nintendo games are what really sell on the system.  No third party game has even matched the sales numbers of Mario or Metroid besides Resident Evil and maybe SA2.  Really good advertising costs money.  Therefore, it's a gamble.  Ads might get whatever third-party game known on the GCN providing they are good enough, but will the game generate enough sales to cover the ad costs and make the third-party a profit?  
I got some killaz on my payroll.

Offline Darc Requiem

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« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2003, 12:22:28 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ninja X
Darc Requiem

Yes, the third-party market is smaller on the Cube compared to the PS2, so you think if a third-party would release a quality game, it would sell good provided it had marketng behind it.  That's probably true, but the PS2 has the largest userbase.  If a third-party game were to achieve financial success on the PS2, PS2 gamers would most likely remember that game or the series that game is on; thus, any sequel or prequel produced for that game will sell just basedo because of the predecessor.  Sounds confusing?  Here's an example:  
Devil May Cry.  Devil May Cry 1 sold well and was renowned as a great action game.  More than a year later, the sequel would come out.  Now, the sequel, by some critics and DMC fans alike, sucks.  But it still sells like crazy and looks to surpass DMC, last time I checked the TRST data.  
If a game can hit success on the PS2, any more versions or sequels following that game are practically guaranteed for success.  You want more examples?  GTA, Metal Gear Solid, Red Faction, Smackdown, etc.
The third-party market on the GCN is weak on sales.  The Nintendo games are what really sell on the system.  No third party game has even matched the sales numbers of Mario or Metroid besides Resident Evil and maybe SA2.  Really good advertising costs money.  Therefore, it's a gamble.  Ads might get whatever third-party game known on the GCN providing they are good enough, but will the game generate enough sales to cover the ad costs and make the third-party a profit?


I concur Ninja X, PS2 is where you can theoritically make the most money. My problem is with third parties logic. If you are going to spend the time and money to produce a game, you should put forth your best effort to make sure its a success.  If you are not going to advertise a game at all, don't make the game. People can't buy what they've never heard about and if you are not willing to do whats necessary to make them aware of your product you are wasting your time and money.

This isn't the NES or SNES days were producing a video game was inexpensive. Development teams aren't five and ten guys anymore. So its fiscally irresponsible to release a video game these days without some sort of advertising campaign. Yes ads cost money but so did the salary of 40 man development team that you paid over the last 18 months to make the game. I mean back in the NES/SNES when you had 5 guys working on a game for six months you could afford to not advertise and rely on word of mouth. I mean there are exceptions, Ikagura only had a 3 man develoment team. Treasure's development cost on Ikagura were probably at tenth of the average video game. You can drop a game like that on the shelves and sell a few thousand copies and still laugh all the way to the bank.

If I'm gonna spend a million dollars on a video game development, I'm gonna have to sell at least 35 to 40,000 copies to break even. Now I can sit in my office and pray that a few hardcore gamers pick up my game and spread the word or I can take some initiative. I'm not saying have a 10 million dollar had campaign. You could do some web ads, they are inexpensive, and have a few 30 second TV spots. At least give your game the chance to do well.

Now if that games bombs and you lose money, don't develop on the platform again. At least you'll have given it a fair shot and can make an assessment for future projects. Don't sit there and spout of some stereotypical diatribe without actually knowing anything. Developers assumed that GC was kiddie before the first system hit the shelves. Developers determine how a console is viewed. Now matter how many first party titles are released for a console they will be dwarfed by the third party offerings. Its just the like the Dreamcast. Third parties didn't support it because they said they thought it wouldn't be crushed by the PS2. Well without third support any console will fail. So by sitting back and doing nothing they guaranteed the PS2's success. Then the same developers bitch about Sony being to dominant, well its a product of their own doing.

Third parties are always giving self fulfilling prophecy's. This console won't sell, these games don't sell on this console. Well if you don't put any mature games on a console people that like mature games aren't gonna buy it. My games don't sell on this platform, well if you game gets an average rating of 3.5 of 10 because of substandard framerates and an all around shoddy port its YOUR fault. Things don't just happen at random in retail, there are reasons for them.

Oh and one more thing, hey Ian....what exactly is a paragraph?

Darc Requiem
 
"Fiery words fuel debate and debate yields understanding."