Topic: REVIEWS: Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Darkness & Explorers of Time

[Shift Key]

At least the reviewers played these games extensively before making sweeping judgments of their entire genre.

I laughed hard. Perhaps you're being serious - and that made me laugh even harder.

[KDR_11k]

About random dungeons, let me say it like this: There are games with good random dungeons and then there are japanese dungeon crawlers. Diablo 2 managed to have randomization combined with interesting locales (often large hand-designed parts that were merged into the random levels), it needed randomness because it would get replayed a LOT online and it still worked out. All attempts from Japan to have random dungeons I've seen were horribly lazy messes that produced a pointless mixture of rooms and corridors with little sense of cohesion. And because it's so easy to adjust the "floors" parameter when you don't have to input anything for each level they tend to make dungeons horribly long. A long level with no points of interest is just stupid. And well, a whole game based around increasing your stats fighting samey monsters in pointless random messes (er, dungeons) is pretty damn stupid and holds about zero entertainment for most people. IMO reviews should warn about that, most if not all people looking for a review of such games on a page like this are not hardcore dungeon crawler lovers. The three and a half people who like this genre probably have their own review sites anyway.

Oh BTW, these days an FPS does get torn apart if all it contains is shooting stuff, people want stories, intelligent teammates and enemies, puzzles, etc in their FPSes now.

[shammack]

Neal and James are within their rights to criticize an entire genre if that genre is based around a gameplay idea that they find to be repulsive and/or negatively entertaining.

They certainly have that right, but it doesn't strike me as a very useful thing to do.  ShyGuy's Madden comparison is pretty apt.

I do at least get some satisfaction from knowing that Crimm apparently played through the entire game with the list of controls on the top screen.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Okay, look.  If you don't like random dungeons you shouldn't be playing a game entirely based around them in the first place.  Complaining about random dungeons in a roguelike is like playing a racing game and complaining that all you do is drive around a track, or playing an FPS and complaining that all you do is run around and shoot people.  If the core of the game is that uninteresting to you, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you won't like the game.  But that doesn't necessarily make it a bad game within the parameters of what it is.

Neal and James are within their rights to criticize an entire genre if that genre is based around a gameplay idea that they find to be repulsive and/or negatively entertaining.

But then one can argue that there will be certain biases toward a game during the review.  Also the food mechanic in the Mystery Dungeon games is logical since your a rogue and since rogues are on their own they have to survive on their own accord.   

[Nick DiMola]

It seems to me that the review covered the many mechanics of the game and exactly what it is like to play the game.  If you are a fan of this type of game, you should be able to glean the details from the review and make your own decision about whether or not you will like the game. Though James and Neal pan the game, they state the facts. At no point did they falsely state anything about the game to further their negative feelings, they just discuss why they didn't like x mechanic.

This type of game tends to be very niche, but it carries a very popular, mainstream IP along with it. People who are a fan of Pokemon games should know what they are getting into, and know that this isn't the typical fair. It is also worth noting how random dungeons often play out, and why they don't function as well as well-designed levels.

That's my two cents. Unfortunately this type of game is a bit of an anomaly. A very hardcore game tied to a very mainstream IP. Whether you pick on it for being a mystery dungeon game, or praise it, someone isn't going to be satisfied with the outcome of the review.

[Mario]

Pikmin 2 4.5

[GoldenPhoenix]

About random dungeons, let me say it like this: There are games with good random dungeons and then there are japanese dungeon crawlers. Diablo 2 managed to have randomization combined with interesting locales (often large hand-designed parts that were merged into the random levels), it needed randomness because it would get replayed a LOT online and it still worked out. All attempts from Japan to have random dungeons I've seen were horribly lazy messes that produced a pointless mixture of rooms and corridors with little sense of cohesion. And because it's so easy to adjust the "floors" parameter when you don't have to input anything for each level they tend to make dungeons horribly long. A long level with no points of interest is just stupid. And well, a whole game based around increasing your stats fighting samey monsters in pointless random messes (er, dungeons) is pretty damn stupid and holds about zero entertainment for most people. IMO reviews should warn about that, most if not all people looking for a review of such games on a page like this are not hardcore dungeon crawler lovers. The three and a half people who like this genre probably have their own review sites anyway.

Oh BTW, these days an FPS does get torn apart if all it contains is shooting stuff, people want stories, intelligent teammates and enemies, puzzles, etc in their FPSes now.

Great points. Personally I think the random dungeons are used more for advertising purposes to unsuspecting (young gamers) in many games. Because it is a NEW experience every time! Except for the fact they are poorly implemented.

[Caliban]

As long as we're critcizing entire genres, I give Madden and Sports games in general a 3.0

on a scale of a 100

You don't like the Wii version of Pro Evolution Soccer 2008?


As for this review, the only comment I can give is that what makes this game seem so negative might be its long playtime duration for such genre of games. I do not have this game, but from my experience with Izuna I can say that a 5 to 15 hours spent in gameplay is more than sufficient. I don't know how long do these Shiren the Wanderer Mystery Dungeon games last, but I asssume that they don't have as much longevity as this Pokemon Mystery Dungeon.

[vudu]

Neal and James review essentially the same game, with essentially the same contempt.

I think we're all missing the real story here ... THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF NEWSBOT!!

[KDR_11k]

Food may be logical or realistic but Nethack's instakill traps and mechanics are realistic too. Speaking of Nethack, I suppose you cannot use the bodies of dead enemies as food or makeshift weapons?

[shammack]

That would mean admitting that Pokemon can actually die!

[Crimm]

That would mean admitting that Pokemon can actually die!

They are routinely sliced and diced in the manga.

[DAaaMan64]

That would mean admitting that Pokemon can actually die!

They are routinely sliced and diced in the manga.

Hm thats creepy!

[Flames_of_chaos]

Neal and James whats your opinion of my review of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon?

[Crimm]

It's good, and pretty much in line with my thoughts on the game.  Nice job.

[NWR_Neal]

Well written and, like James said, pretty much in line with my thoughts.