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Your favorite: Terran, Zerg, or Protoss?

Terran
13 (41.9%)
Zerg
5 (16.1%)
Protoss
13 (41.9%)

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Author Topic: The Starcraft mega thread - Rising from the ashes.  (Read 190035 times)

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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #175 on: April 23, 2008, 04:31:42 PM »
I don't get it.  Ground units need an air attack to hit them, but air units need a ground attack to hit them?  And banelings can hit them?  Does that mean banelings' explosions can reach air units?

Actually you are miss interpreting.

The Colossus can Hit:
Ground Units

Can hit the Colossus:
Air Units
Ground Units

The Colossus is so tall that Anti-Air fire can hit them.
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Offline Smoke39

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #176 on: April 23, 2008, 05:04:18 PM »
So basically anything can hit it.
GOREGASM!

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #177 on: April 23, 2008, 05:26:39 PM »
So basically anything can hit it.

That's kind of scary, since some well-used Zerg scourges could spell doom for a group of raiding Colossi.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #178 on: April 23, 2008, 06:55:16 PM »
So basically anything can hit it.

That's kind of scary, since some well-used Zerg scourges could spell doom for a group of raiding Colossi.

I would agree with you, but the Scourge doesn't look like it's going to be making a return in Starcraft 2.  At least, as of now it isn't.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #179 on: April 24, 2008, 07:50:44 AM »
So basically anything can hit it.

That's kind of scary, since some well-used Zerg scourges could spell doom for a group of raiding Colossi.

I would agree with you, but the Scourge doesn't look like it's going to be making a return in Starcraft 2.  At least, as of now it isn't.
I be somewhat surprised by that.
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Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #180 on: April 24, 2008, 08:22:55 AM »


The Terran Siege Tank



The Terran Siege Tank is without a doubt, the defining unit of the Terran army.  Without the Siege Tank, the Zerg and Protoss would have little to fear from the Human race.  The Siege Tank is absolutely devastating to any other ground unit in the game.  The Siege Tank rolls around like another other unit, but once it enters ‘siege mode’, the Siege Tank becomes a destructive force of nature.  Boasting the longest firing range of any unit in the game, the Siege Tank is the center piece of several Terran strategies.  In addition to its long attack range, the Siege Tank’s attacks are all splash damage.

Due to the long range and high damage powers of the Siege Tank, the Terran is the easiest race to play defensively.  The Siege Tank is also devastating when placed on a cliff over an expansion money location.

The only short comings of the Siege Tank are it’s inability to attack air units and the fact that it can’t shoot units that are close to it.  The best way to deal with Siege Tanks is to rush a large number Zerglings or Zealots into the line or drop units from a shuttle right on top of them.  Once on top of the Tanks, the other Tanks will continue to fire upon the attackers and end up destroying their own units with splash damage.



This is the best possible way to use Siege Tanks.  The Terran below has no chance against this onslaught.

Siege Tank transforming.

Mauling from above.



Beware! Turnabout is fair play.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #181 on: April 24, 2008, 11:48:39 AM »
The Terran Siege Tank is without a doubt, the defining unit of the Terran army.  Without the Siege Tank, the Zerg and Protoss would have little to fear from the Human race.  The Siege Tank is absolutely devastating to any other ground unit in the game.  The Siege Tank rolls around like another other unit, but once it enters ‘siege mode’, the Siege Tank becomes a destructive force of nature.  Boasting the longest firing range of any unit in the game, the Siege Tank is the center piece of several Terran strategies.  In addition to its long attack range, the Siege Tank’s attacks are all splash damage.

Due to the long range and high damage powers of the Siege Tank, the Terran is the easiest race to play defensively.  The Siege Tank is also devastating when placed on a cliff over an expansion money location.

The only short comings of the Siege Tank are it’s inability to attack air units and the fact that it can’t shoot units that are close to it.  The best way to deal with Siege Tanks is to rush a large number Zerglings or Zealots into the line or drop units from a shuttle right on top of them.  Once on top of the Tanks, the other Tanks will continue to fire upon the attackers and end up destroying their own units with splash damage.

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Offline Smoke39

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #182 on: April 24, 2008, 11:55:20 AM »
SC2 thread = KDR complains about stuff thread.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #183 on: April 24, 2008, 12:47:05 PM »
The Protoss Colossus is the only robotic unit in the Protoss army made for the specific use of war.  All of the past robotic units were used for intel, transportation, or mineral gathering.

Was the Reaver supposed to have had some non-warfare use then?

I don't like the new Siege Tank design much.  It looks like an Octorock wearing lipstick.

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #184 on: April 24, 2008, 01:01:39 PM »
Quote
Pronouns are a nice thing. Are you allied with the Knights Who Say Ni?



courtesy of xkcd
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 01:04:13 PM by Sundoulos »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #185 on: April 24, 2008, 04:42:39 PM »
Um, that's for grammar nazis, not for complaints about writing styles :P

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #186 on: April 24, 2008, 04:48:31 PM »
He used pronouns to refer to Siege Tanks seven times.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #187 on: April 24, 2008, 06:32:33 PM »
Was the Reaver supposed to have had some non-warfare use then?

The Reaver was originally a civilian transport unit.  Once war broke out, the Reaver was refitted with the ability to attack from a distance.  The Reaver has the second longest range of any ground unit next to the Siege Tank.  The ammunition is made inside the Reaver and the rounds are small robotic drones called Scarabs.  The Reaver is the slowest moving unit in the game which is a bit bizarre for a former transport unit.  This is usually countered by loading a Reaver into a Shuttle and dropping it off for quick hit and run tactics.

Hmm...1,2,3,4,5,6.  Darn it.

Errr....the Reaver has been compared to a caterpillar due to it's shape and movement style.


SWEET!!

I don't like the new Siege Tank design much.  It looks like an Octorock wearing lipstick.

The second picture is from a very old build and people complained that it looked like it was wearing lipstick.  The first picture is how the tank currently looks with the split opening on the cannon.

He used pronouns to refer to Siege Tanks seven times.

Yeah, I may have went a bit overboard with that, sorry.  I sometimes write these at work when I'm uploading programs and get distracted.  I'll type a sentence here and there, but the excessive use of Siege Tank was unforgivable.  I do so apologize.  Just trying to unlock more achievements.

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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #188 on: April 24, 2008, 06:45:18 PM »
The Reaver was originally a civilian transport unit.  Once war broke out, the Reaver was refitted with the ability to attack from a distance.

I did not know that.

Quote
The Reaver is the slowest moving unit in the game which is a bit bizarre for a former transport unit.

Just another example of Blizzard not respecting their own lore!

Quote
The second picture is from a very old build and people complained that it looked like it was wearing lipstick.  The first picture is how the tank currently looks with the split opening on the cannon.

I see.  I thought that was just the difference between modes.  The newer screenshot didn't load for me earlier.  (Now it looks like an Octrorock before it puts its face on in the morning.)

Quote
He used pronouns to refer to Siege Tanks seven times.

Yeah, I may have went a bit overboard with that, sorry.  I sometimes write these at work when I'm uploading programs and get distracted.  I'll type a sentence here and there, but the excessive use of Siege Tank was unforgivable.  I do so apologize.  Just trying to unlock more achievements.

Hey, now.  I was trying to defend you.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #189 on: April 24, 2008, 07:17:44 PM »

Quote
The Reaver is the slowest moving unit in the game which is a bit bizarre for a former transport unit.
Just another example of Blizzard not respecting their own lore!

It could always be explained that the innards of the Reaver had to have the seating removed and replaced with an entire production facility.

Hey, now.  I was trying to defend you.

Sorry, I get so confused!  Grammer and Bosshogx do not mix well.   :-[
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #190 on: April 24, 2008, 10:26:01 PM »
I always thought that the Reaver was used for Mining originally, like strip mining.  Learn something new everyday.
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #191 on: April 25, 2008, 08:15:24 AM »


Updating the User Interface part 2

In the last UI update, we discussed changes made to the on screen UI.  This time I will be highlighting some of the gameplay changes being implemented into Starcraft 2 in order to catch it up to modern standards.

Some of the changes will include the following:
-Smartcasting
-Auto-mining
-Multi-building selection
-Unit formation
-Expanded multiple commands

Smartcasting is the ability to have a single spell target various targets.  In Starcraft 1 if you told a group of 12 Ghosts to use their “Lockdown” spell on an enemy, all 12 of them would fire on the same target, wasting 11 “Lockdowns”.  In order to counter this, the player would select the group, target one enemy, then as the Ghosts make their way to the target, the player would have to de-select one unit from the group and target a different enemy unit and so on and so forth.  As you can imagine, this required a lot of clicking and hand speed.

In Startcraft 2, Smartcasting will take this into account.  To accomplish the same effect described above, the player will take his group of Ghosts, select Lockdown, then right click on an enemy unit.  As they are moving to the target, the player only has to hold down the shift key and right click on any other units they want to perform the spell on.

This method will work for all spell casters in Starcraft 2 and should help close the gap between people with slower and faster hand speeds.

Before: Boxer’s Lockdown

Mass Lockdown without Smartcasting.

After: Terran Sniping

Starting at the :50 second mark, you can see mass Sniping using Smartcasting.  At the end of the clip they show off calling down Drop Pods with Smartcasting.  As you can see, you get the same effect with a lot less clicking.



Pulling something like this off in Starcraft 1 took incredible hand speed.  Not so in Starcraft 2.

Auto-mining is a fairly simple addition, but one that is long overdue.  When you click on any building, a player can select a rally point anywhere on the map.  The rally point is where the new units will go when they appear from the building.  If you set a rally point on a patch of minerals or gas refinery, the worker units will automatically start collecting as soon as they appear from the Command Center, Nexus, or Hatchery.



Get to work!

Multi-building selection will allow a player to assign multiple buildings to any number group he chooses.  Say you’re playing the Protoss with 6 Gateways.  You can click on each Gateway and tell it to produce a single Zealot.  Now, you can click on the first Gateway, hold shift, and click on the rest of the Gateways.  Once you have all 6 highlighted, press Ctrl and any number 1 thru 0.  Let’s say we assigned our Gateways to number 5.  Now all we have to do is press 5,Z and we will have 6 Zealots produced at the same time, assuming the funds are ready.



Use Multi-building selection in conjunction with Smartcasting and Gateways to speed up the reinforcing of the front lines with the Protoss.

Unit formations in Starcraft 1 were pretty bad.  Pathing AI wasn’t the best either, especially on ramps.  Starcraft 2 will allow the units to respond to group movements better and hopefully reduce all the clutter large moving armies tend to incur.  Players will still have to issue up commands to their units, but at least they all won’t go walking off in a straight line this time around.



The pathfinding AI in Starcraft 1 would have made this attack very difficult to pull off without extremely good micro skills.

Customizable hotkeys are in discussion now.  This would allow a player to remap the 15 keys on the far left side of the keyboard to whatever he wants them to be.  Don’t like reaching over to “p” to create a probe?  No problem, reassign it to “s” or “q” or whatever you like.

Finally, we have expanded multiple commands.  Basically, this means a smarter use of the Shift and Ctrl keys.  If you highlight any builder type unit, say a SCV, Probe, or Queen, you can give them a queue of commands to follow when setting up buildings. 

Say you wanted to build 2 supply depots, a barracks, another supply depot, a factory, and end with another supply depot in that order.  Using hotkeys, you would click on an SCV and press the following:

Hold shift, b, s, click location, b, s, click location, b, b, click location, v, f, click location, b, s, click location.

*the hotkeys above are “b” build basic structure, “s” for supply depot, “b” build basic structure, “b” for barracks, “v” build advance structure, “f” for factory, “b” build basic structure, “s” for supply depot*

The above sequence can be entered manually using the lower right unit commands, but it will just take more time.  Memorizing hotkeys takes a while to get used to, but becomes second nature after a while.  When learning hotkeys, you can always look at the lower right unit command window and hover your mouse over a unit picture.  The name, cost, and time to produce the unit will appear in a balloon.  The unit’s name will have one letter standing out in a different color.  That is the unit’s default hotkey.  This applies to buildings and spells as well.



Building a base like this will be much easier and efficient in Starcraft 2.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - It's like War of the Worlds.
« Reply #192 on: April 25, 2008, 08:24:22 AM »
Why does the reaver have less range than the siegetank when you have to pay for every bullet?

Sounds like they are indeed updating the user interface though it seems strange that the build menu doesn't stay open after you queue a building. Does it allow load balancing over factories? In Spring you can assign multiple factories (or builders or what have you) to a Central Build AI (not much AI actually), you could assign e.g. 6 factories, queue one unit and get one unit (instead of six), queue five get five, etc. It allows you to queue larger armies without bothering to pick which factory should build what, you just say "I need 15 tanks" and it spreads that over the factories.

Offline bosshogx

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #193 on: April 25, 2008, 10:00:10 AM »
Why does the reaver have less range than the siegetank when you have to pay for every bullet?

Sounds like they are indeed updating the user interface though it seems strange that the build menu doesn't stay open after you queue a building. Does it allow load balancing over factories? In Spring you can assign multiple factories (or builders or what have you) to a Central Build AI (not much AI actually), you could assign e.g. 6 factories, queue one unit and get one unit (instead of six), queue five get five, etc. It allows you to queue larger armies without bothering to pick which factory should build what, you just say "I need 15 tanks" and it spreads that over the factories.

The shot range of the Reaver is only a little bit shorter than a tank, but only if the tank is in siege mode.  The damage per shot is almost double that of a tank and the splash effect is much larger.  Moot point really though, the Reaver isn't coming back for Starcraft 2. It's been replaced by the Colossus.

Don't quote me on the operation of the building menu.  It may very well stay open, I'm just going on what I've read.

For load balance, what you're saying is that you can place an order for a specific quantity of units and the AI will distribute it out over the factories.  From what I've read this won't happen in SC2.  If you use MBS and build a tank, the AI will try a single tank in each factory.  If you are short of funds it will build as many as it can based on your resources.

I foresee people using two number keys for MBS production.  Say I have 9 factories up and running in the middle of the game with an economy that can actually support them.  If I'm creating a mix of 3 tanks/6 vultures, I would hotkey 3 factories to the 6 key and the other 6 factories to the 5 key.  When I'm ready to produce units, I would tap the following: 5v6t Now I've queued up 6 vultures and 3 tanks in that order.  4 button presses for 9 units isn't that bad.

It's all really a question of macro vs micro and how much AI control is really needed.  That's a tough question to answer.  SC1's limited UI meant spending a lot more time focusing on macro, but micro is just as important to winning.  SC2 will make the macro easier to handle, but at what point is it too much?  Granted, I shouldn't have to press 18-20 keystrokes to get 9 units, but if I can accomplish the same thing in 2 keystrokes, isn't there something wrong with that?  Is it just me?  If the game becomes too micro intensive, it will become Warcraft 3 without upkeep.  I don't know how I feel about that to be honest.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #194 on: April 25, 2008, 11:14:11 AM »
It's all really a question of macro vs micro and how much AI control is really needed.  That's a tough question to answer.  SC1's limited UI meant spending a lot more time focusing on macro, but micro is just as important to winning.  SC2 will make the macro easier to handle, but at what point is it too much?  Granted, I shouldn't have to press 18-20 keystrokes to get 9 units, but if I can accomplish the same thing in 2 keystrokes, isn't there something wrong with that?  Is it just me?  If the game becomes too micro intensive, it will become Warcraft 3 without upkeep.  I don't know how I feel about that to be honest.

The way I see it, it's a strategy game, not a clicking game.  The UI should get out of the way and let me concentrate on winning the game through strategy.  If that turns out not to be fun, then the game was never a good strategy game in the first place.  It was just a clicking competition.

Regarding hotkeys, one thing I liked about the mostly forgettable Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds (essentially a Star Wars mod of Age of Empires 2) was the way hotkeys were assigned based on the location of the button on the grid.  The lower right button would always map to the B key, no matter what that button actually did.  This completely did away with any kind of mnemonic devices like "b is for build," but worked well as a way to cope with the large variety of units and buildings in the game without requiring much hand movement.  It's not like most people still need those mnemonic devices after they've played the game for a while, and if you do forget a hotkey, you can tell which key you need with a quick glance at the button's location.  There's no need to hover your pointer over it for a tooltip.

Even though I liked the setup, Blizzard's past games refused to allow you to reuse keys like that.  I hope Starcraft 2 is different.

Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #195 on: April 25, 2008, 08:19:00 PM »
I really do need to get into spring...

Boo for the ditching of the Reaver.  The Colossus doesn't seem to have the oomph of a Reaver.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #196 on: April 26, 2008, 04:38:08 PM »
KDR what do you do on the Spring Project?  I noticed you on the Contributor thanks.
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #197 on: April 27, 2008, 09:01:05 AM »
Some smaller patches like weapon behaviours (weapons are a hardcoded mess ATM) or the occassional bugfix. The changes can have huge effects on what mods can do sometimes but code-wise it's rarely major.

I don't consider the number of button presses a micro-vs-macro thing, that's just interface efficiency and independent of the gameplay IMO (unless it's so crippling that working around the UI is a major part of the game...). Micro is IMO stuff like ordering commando units or other small number stuff around to do things the units wouldn't do by themselves, if it's just planting bombs or dodging artillery shells while hiding behind enemy buildings and destroying their economy with a peashooter. Not sure where macro really begins but I guess it's things like from where will you attack, what's the plan and which territories you will claim. Neither is about clicks or buttons IMO.

Offline Ceric

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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #198 on: April 27, 2008, 09:17:29 AM »
I always thought of micro being at the elite squad level.  Where you say who to fight, how to move to dodge, etc.
Macro I've always seen as getting some forces together and sending them off to attack.  Sort of I don't care how you do it but I want that base.
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Re: The Starcraft mega thread - Now with 50% less clicking.
« Reply #199 on: April 28, 2008, 10:35:59 AM »
Sorry for the late update this morning, it's been a hassle at work.  There will not be a traditional update today due to a few problems I've been running into.  I was looking ahead at what information is available on SC2 and realized that I'm going to run out of things to post about after a month or so.  I'm trying to avoid the last month or two of the Smash Bros updates where Sakurai was grasping for straws.  Therefore, I will be updating new SC2 information every Tuesday and Thursday.  On Mon/Wed/Fri, I'll try and find some fun and interesting things to post about SC1 or SC1 to SC2 comparisons.  It will probably be a lot of videos of high end players and such.  So, without further ado:



SlayerS_’BoxeR’



Lim Yo-Hwan or “Boxer” is probably the most recognized and respected Starcraft player in the world.  When Boxer hit the scene he took the Terran race and made them something to be feared in a time when Protoss and Zerg were running rampant.  His skill with the Terran earned him the nickname, “The Terran Emperor.”

Boxer is known for his outside the box thinking and his willingness to try something extremely risky in high pressure tournaments.  His creativity and mind games have been brought “ooh” and “ahhs” from the crowds in attendance.  His is one of the older players still playing at 28 years old, when most of the other players are in their late teens to early twenties.  Many current Terran players say that he is the reason they started playing Terran in the first place.

Back in 2006, Boxer was entered the air force as part of South Korean law that every man must serve two years in the military.  He has still been participating in Starcraft, but his time away from the game has shown that he isn’t up to par with current players.

Boxer’s annual yearly income has been estimated between $250,000 and $500,000 dollars between salary and endorsements.  He has a fan club of over 600,000 members worldwide and he released a DVD compilation of some of the best games he ever played.

To truly put Boxer into perspective, he is quite simply the Michael Jordan of Starcraft.  Not just for his gameplay, but in the way that he changed the way people played Starcraft.  This will be quite obvious in later updates and this won’t be the last time you hear his name.





Not a coincidence.  Two individuals who are the best at what they do.

www.mondaynightcrew.com
A video game webcomic that's updated every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Wii 2338-1768-8759-4933
Planet Puzzle League 180490-316211
Advance Wars 171922-891988