Author Topic: It's nearly a year later, and... (Read 20678 times)

Kairon · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2007, 04:15:59 PM »

They played it low-key when they started working with Squaresoft again and things seem more or less patched-up there.

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2007, 04:50:37 PM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
On a somewhat side note, does anyone else find the idea of Snake choking Nintendo characters a bit...disturbing? I don't know how many others here played Twin Snakes, but that's how he grabs someone right before he snaps their neck.

I certainly did. The even more disturbing thing is that its the shot that Konami has been showing off like crazy during their presentations.

I know the SSB series has you doing weird and even violent stuff to the other characters, but Snake's grab is certainly very realistic and they show the characters in a lot of discomfort and pain.

Some find it funny but I find it to be weird...

The Sailerman · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2007, 05:01:05 PM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I can understand Nintendo trying to appeal to a 3rd party whose philosophy line up with their new way of thinking, but Konami certainly isn't that company and Kojima isn't that kind of developer.

Sorry to seem stubborn on this, but it's just not Nintendo's style to yield to a developer who spent the last generation ragging on them and ignoring their console.

I think Nintendo may be thinking that if they allow Konami's premier character in one of their premier franchises, in return, Konami will produce exclusive games for Wii and DS.

Then again, it may just be that Sakurai and Kojima are good friends, so Sakurai is allowing the inclusion of Snake no matter what the opinions of Iwata, Miyamoto, etc. are.

Adrock · « **Reply #28 on:** September 23, 2007, 06:47:57 PM »

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Sorry to seem stubborn on this, but it's just not Nintendo's style to yield to a developer who spent the last generation ragging on them and ignoring their console.

Again, Nintendo got f-ing pwn3d by Konami in the Twin Snakes deal. Accepting raw deals isn't really Nintendo's style either (they bitchslapped Sony and their Play Station SNES add-on), but it's happened before and it was Konami who got away with it.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Nintendo is allowing Konami and Hideo Kojima to advertise MGS4 in Smash Bros. Kojima went to Sakurai, not the other way around. Smash is Nintendo's franchise. They could veto anything so why aren't they? Maybe there is some deal we don't know about. Kojima has said that he wants to work on Wii. Yeah, developers say a lot of things, but you never know.......

EasyCure · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2007, 07:43:56 PM »

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Kojima went to Sakurai, not the other way around.

That's exactly why i feel Nintendo should have taken initiative and told Kojima “Sure, Snake can be in brawl, but what are you going to do for us?” as opposed to simply thinking “Oooh he likes our game, maybe he'll do something on Wii.”

There's no way to know how if either of those scenarios went down though, but my opinion is Nintendo should of used this as a deal makes to negotiate SOMETHING out of him rather than just hope for the best. Yes it would be nice to get some MGS fans onto the Brawl train and pick up extra money on those customers, but honestly if you've heard of MGS you've heard of Brawl already. I think there are more nintendo loyalist, however, that have played Smash Bros. but never played a MGS game before, so why would you go and advertise a gaming experience found almost exclusively on a competitors console? The ones that play as Snake for the first time in Brawl aren't going to go out and buy Twin Snakes for GC, their going to want to try out MGS4 because thats what Brawl is advertising. Even if the most loyal fan picks up TS for GC, it'll be used so Nintendo still won't be seeing money from it.

Now, chances are that Sakurai is left to make all final decisions when it comes to Brawl because Nintendo has faith in him, I'm just hoping they stepped in when it came to adding Snake to the fight.

Crimm · « **Reply #30 on:** September 23, 2007, 07:48:31 PM »

If they tried to put terms like that on it, he wouldn't have done it unless he was planning a Wii title anyway. That is a huge demand for limited rewards.

IceCold · « **Reply #31 on:** September 23, 2007, 08:01:53 PM »

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Snake's appearance in Brawl, I would think, is meant to draw in Metal Gear fans to Smash Bros.,

But the thing is, similar to what EasyCure was saying, the effect of the MGS fans buying Brawl is negligible. Smash Bros already appeals to a huge audience, and if anything, Snake exposure in the game will benefit MGS4 more than it will Smash Bros.

EasyCure · « **Reply #32 on:** September 23, 2007, 08:18:47 PM »

I don't think the rewards are limited if there is a chance that Snakes appearance in Brawl could garnish up some hype from people that might not of been interested in his series to begin with. All every one talks about is how MGS4 is going to be THE game to have for the PS3s*, that it justifies blu-ray, and how it will sell more systems for that game alone (etc.). I don't think Kojima wants his epic title to flop because not enough people own a PS3. If there is even the smallest chance to make his game sell better, he'll do what it takes for it to do so.
At this point all sony really has at after this holiday they've seemingly given up is a small chance from a big game.
so what if he loves the Smash Bros. games? That's not reason enough to want his character in the game, he wants money in his pocket, money he can make by exposing Snake to as many people as possible before MGS4 hits. When all is said and done he should be the one doing Nintendo the favors, not the other way around.

Even if it doesn't sell well because of the small ps3 uses base, nintendo can still call up Kojima when Brawl sales surpass MGS4 and be like “Hey look, your game sold X amount on ps3 but look, Brawl sold XX amount over Melee and thats partly due to your character being in it. Its obvious you've got some fans on our side of the fence, maybe you should make something just for us and see just how well those fans want your creations.” Thats the business approach i expect to be taken.

*FF purposefuly left out of statement

EasyCure · « **Reply #33 on:** September 23, 2007, 08:21:58 PM »

that Baby guy · « **Reply #34 on:** September 23, 2007, 08:22:24 PM »

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Originally posted by: EasyCure
Hey look, your game sold X amount on ps3 but look, Brawl sold XX

Brawl outsells MGS4 by an 11 to 1 ratio, confirmed!

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:09:58 AM »

What EasyCure said makes A LOT of sense. Even if MGS 4 is a massive PS3 hit considering the high costs of developing for the PS3 it will hardly make a profit. So it wouldn't be surprising if Kojima is using Snake in Brawl as a way to mass promote MGS 4 AND get some profit out of his appearance. I'm sure Nintendo will be giving each third party developer that contributed to Brawl a piece of the SSB pie so I'm sure Kojima will be getting share. But in order to get a big piece he must do something in return.

Makes sense if you think about it.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #36 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:26:01 AM »

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Originally posted by: pap64 I'm sure Nintendo will be giving each third party developer that contributed to Brawl a piece of the SSB pie so I'm sure Kojima will be getting share.

Doubtful.

If I were a game developer with a game releasing to on the Wii which prominently featured a character, I'd gnaw off my left arm to get that character into Brawl for the advertising potential. They wouldn't need to pay me a cent because they're giving me the best advertising I could EVER hope for.

Nintendo fans are generally immensely xenophobic. I've watched some pretty awesome exclusive 3rd party games float past their noses and they don't bite.

SSB has the ability to pull players in for one character they like and, as a result, lead people to giving the other characters a chance because they become familiar with them. SSB did this for me as I bought it for Link and then went on to try out many other Nintendo games because I had been "around" the characters enough that they intrigued me. The fact that the trophies give a back story to these characters further serves to connect me with them.

Like I said, if I wanted guaranteed sales of my game on the Wii and that game had a recognizable character, I'd offer to do pretty much anything and hope that Sakurai doesn't secretly lust for hairy gaijins.

Kairon · « **Reply #37 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:31:03 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Nintendo fans are generally immensely xenophobic. I've watched some pretty awesome exclusive 3rd party games float past their noses and they don't bite.

Yeah, this is exactly what's caused me to evolve into an all-gamer, a response to everything about the old-Nintendo-Fan-me that I grew to consider hypocritical.

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hope that Sakurai doesn't secretly lust for hairy gaijins.

You mean UncleBob?

couchmonkey · « **Reply #38 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:38:41 AM »

You know, I felt Nintendo didn't get a good deal on Twin Snakes, but I don't see this as a big deal. I mean, they gave a character a cameo - how many people do you really think will spend $660 on a PS3 and MGS4 just because they saw Snake in SSB Brawl? F-Zero gets Captain Falcon and TWO stages in Super Smash Bros....so how come F-Zero GX didn't become an amazing super-hit?

I think this is just a case of Nintendo not being as---uh, jerks. A respected game designer begged to have his character in the game and they said why not? It's not how things would have worked under Yamauchi, but frankly, things have improved a lot since Yamauchi retired.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #39 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:42:30 AM »

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Originally posted by: Kairon
You mean UncleBob?

If I can offer up UB as a sacrifice and get my character into the next SSB game after Brawl, then sure.

EasyCure · « **Reply #40 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:44:57 AM »

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Originally posted by: pap64
What EasyCure said makes A LOT of sense. Even if MGS 4 is a massive PS3 hit considering the high costs of developing for the PS3 it will hardly make a profit. So it wouldn't be surprising if Kojima is using Snake in Brawl as a way to mass promote MGS 4 AND get some profit out of his appearance. I'm sure Nintendo will be giving each third party developer that contributed to Brawl a piece of the SSB pie so I'm sure Kojima will be getting share. But in order to get a big piece he must do something in return.

Makes sense if you think about it.

respect knuckles for Pap

its about time i made a usefull post around here.

I wasnt thinking along the same line as you, when you wrote that Kojima will be getting a share of the Brawl sales-pie. Honestly, i dont see it happening, not a big slice that is, but of course he has to get a small share because of character rights. Who really thinks Nintendo likes sharing their printed money?

I'm under the impression that they let his character into what will no doubt be the best selling wii game of the year as a favor, and in return kojima has to show some love to the wii (and/or ds) in game form. Built from the ground up game form.
If all that emerges from this is a MGS2-3 port/wii-incarnation, then Nintendo really dropped the ball. They know they need 3rd parties to make the types of games that they have no interest in making, and this is the perfect opportunity for them to snatch up a deal with konami/kojima for some "tradditional" games on their system.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #41 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:52:16 AM »

"F-Zero GX didn't become an amazing super-hit?"

Cuz it was drowned out from Soulcalibur 2's hype.

Adrock · « **Reply #42 on:** September 24, 2007, 08:38:44 AM »

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That's exactly why i feel Nintendo should have taken initiative and told Kojima “Sure, Snake can be in brawl, but what are you going to do for us?” as opposed to simply thinking “Oooh he likes our game, maybe he'll do something on Wii.”

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that since that's the case, why is Nintendo letting Kojima and Konami advertise the crap out of titles that have never graced Nintendo hardware? It's seems really dumb of Nintendo to willingly let that happen without some nice return gesture from Konami.

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I think this is just a case of Nintendo not being as---uh, jerks. A respected game designer begged to have his character in the game and they said why not? It's not how things would have worked under Yamauchi, but frankly, things have improved a lot since Yamauchi retired.

That thought has crossed my mind. However, Nintendo could have allowed Snake to be in Smash Bros. without all the blatant references to games that were never on Nintendo hardware. Why the MGS4 theme? Why Sons of Liberty Snake? Why the Cipher as Snake's 3rd jump also from SoL? Have him backflip off a missile or something, at least he did that in Twin Snakes (as flippin' lame as that was). Make sh*t up if need be, but don't advertise Playstation games.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #43 on:** September 24, 2007, 09:09:11 AM »

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Originally posted by: Adrock
That thought has crossed my mind. However, Nintendo could have allowed Snake to be in Smash Bros. without all the blatant references to games that were never on Nintendo hardware. Why the MGS4 theme? Why Sons of Liberty Snake? Why the Cipher as Snake's 3rd jump also from SoL? Have him backflip off a missile or something, at least he did that in Twin Snakes (as flippin' lame as that was). Make sh*t up if need be, but don't advertise Playstation games.

This is the crux of my concern as well.

I just naturally assumed that we'd have some kind of MGS game announced for Wii by now, maybe even a RE approach where they bring all the MGS games over to the Wii one by one, even if they are just ports with Wiimote capability, and then get a new MGS game at the end.

The advertising potential for Snake is just plain wasted if Nintendo fans will have to drop $660 to play his latest game.

The Sailerman · « **Reply #44 on:** September 24, 2007, 10:19:08 AM »

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Originally posted by: Adrock
Again, Nintendo got f-ing pwn3d by Konami in the Twin Snakes deal. Accepting raw deals isn't really Nintendo's style either (they bitchslapped Sony and their Play Station SNES add-on), but it's happened before and it was Konami who got away with it.

How exactly did Nintendo get screwed over on the Twin Snakes deal? I wasn't a fan of Metal Gear Solid until I picked up used copies of MGS:The Twin Snakes and MGS2: Substance (for Xbox) fairly recently, so I'm unaware of the terms of the deal Nintendo and Konami came to.

Adrock · « **Reply #45 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:09:54 PM »

Nintendo had Silicon Knights (a Nintendo 2nd party dev at the time) develop the game and, from what I understand, at Nintendo's expense while the cut-scenes were made in Japan by Ryuhei Kitamura, a Japanese director Kojima happened to be a fan of. So basically, Nintendo paid for a remake of a 6 year old game so Hideo Kojima could collaborate with a film director he liked while (I think) Konami got to publish it. It doesn't help that Twin Snakes is like the laziest remade game ever. They even took content out of the original PS version.

I'm assuming Nintendo hoped that a Metal Gear title would help boost Gamecube sales which, unfortunately, didn't happen. Maybe it would have had Nintendo negotiated a brand new game instead of a remake or if Silicon Knights/Konami redesigned Shadow Moses so as to take advantage of the MGS2 style controls so you couldn't, for example, beat Ocelot by just going into 1st person mode.

that Baby guy · « **Reply #46 on:** September 24, 2007, 07:32:17 PM »

Sailerman, when you have the choice between two new games or one remake, which would you choose? That's why the deal was bad, IMO. Nothing grew out of Nintendo's remake. No other MGS games were brought to Nintendo platforms, and for little good reason.

Honestly, I love remakes, though. I'd take the remake, most likely.

The Sailerman · « **Reply #47 on:** September 24, 2007, 08:05:21 PM »

Ah, I wasn't aware Nintendo even had the choice of having the other two MGS games released on GameCube.
The only thing I regret about not owning a PS2 is not being able to play MGS3 and Okami.

that Baby guy · « **Reply #48 on:** September 24, 2007, 08:17:09 PM »

Nintendo didn't have the choice. I'm saying that you, as a consumer, if faced with that choice, would choose the two new games, if everything else were equal.

The Sailerman · « **Reply #49 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:54:29 AM »

Oh, okay. I thought you meant that was the choice Nintendo had, not the the consumer - I got confused somewhere.
Either way, I guess it was a pretty bad deal in the end for Nintendo.

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Author Topic: It's nearly a year later, and... (Read 20678 times)