Topic: SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL - The New Megathread

[Ceric]

*shrug* Hopefully its not random and done by total ownage.  Sort of like once x amounts of hits or percentage of damage has overall been dished out already.

[Tanookisuit]

/i think Zero Suit Samus IS a seperate character.  I don't know why we'd think different.

[Ceric]

Because in the trailer they show her shedding the suit.

[Adrock]

On the old site, it was mentioned that Zero Suit Samus is playable only "under special circumstances." The Smash Ball seems to fit the bill.

I find it odd that the Final Smash changes Samus so much. You'd think it'd have a similar effect on other characters, say Mario's arms fall off or something.

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: Adrock
I find it odd that the Final Smash changes Samus so much. You'd think it'd have a similar effect on other characters, say Mario's arms fall off or something.

I hope the Final Smash does a diverse pool of things for different characters, ala Ganondorf becoming Ganon or something to that effect. Powerful techniques, but with incredibly varied results.

[Ceric]

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Originally posted by: Adrock
On the old site, it was mentioned that Zero Suit Samus is playable only "under special circumstances." The Smash Ball seems to fit the bill.

I find it odd that the Final Smash changes Samus so much. You'd think it'd have a similar effect on other characters, say Mario's arms fall off or something.

Mario turning Small.

I agree with Arbok.

[Dirk Temporo]

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Originally posted by: Adrock
I was never really fond of the Smash Ball item. I kind of wish you earned a Final Smash through good old fashioned pwning to fill a meter though the addition of a meter could complicate the game a bit.

So then the person in the lead is even MORE in the lead? That doesn't make any sense.

[Adrock]

That's what the poisonous mushroom is for. Besides, Mario's arms falling off would be funnier.

I'd rather just have Zero Suit Samus or Ganon be separate, selectable characters. Or at least it could be like with Zelda in Melee where I could choose to be Shiek. That's the real difference here.

Now that I've had more time to consider the Smash Ball, I think I flat-out dislike it. I like the idea of the Final Smash, but I don't like the idea of it being attached to an item. While everyone rushing to get the Smash Ball is bound to create some classic match moments, I'd rather the game reward skill, not that getting the Smash Ball first requires no skill. A lot of it also relies on luck of the draw too. If the Smash Ball appears right next to me, you're SOL. It's kind of like the bob-omb, where the bob-omb could spawn in the air as your air-attacking thus dooming you, except without the possible negative repercussions.

So I would prefer a Smash Bar/Meter instead (of course, with the option to turn it off). It would be a bit more complex, but hardly convoluted. Attacks fill the meter, KOs fill it more, and it drains completely by losing a life or using a Final Smash. You could further complicate it by rewarding/punishing higher percentages: pwning with at a high percentage fills the meter quicker, while getting pwn3d decreases the meter.

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So then the person in the lead is even MORE in the lead? That doesn't make any sense.

If you earned it, why not? It's not too far off than just plain being a good player and I think it encourages getting better at the game. As I've said, the Smash Ball isn't always earned which I view as a potential problem. And I'd imagine in either case, if you miss or your opponent dodges, you're left vulnerable for a bit. Hey, it's just my take on things.

In any case, I'd hate for Final Smash Attacks to deal instant KOs. Some of them look like wide attacks (i.e. Mario's fire storm) while others look like (attack it's weak point for) MASSIVE DAMAGE (i.e. Link's Omnislash-esque flurry of attacks).  

[Luigi Dude]

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Originally posted by: Adrock

Now that I've had more time to consider the Smash Ball, I think I flat-out dislike it. I like the idea of the Final Smash, but I don't like the idea of it being attached to an item. While everyone rushing to get the Smash Ball is bound to create some classic match moments, I'd rather the game reward skill, not that getting the Smash Ball first requires no skill. A lot of it also relies on luck of the draw too. If the Smash Ball appears right next to me, you're SOL. It's kind of like the bob-omb, where the bob-omb could spawn in the air as your air-attacking thus dooming you, except without the possible negative repercussions.

But the item can only be used once per match by each character.  This means if you don't get it the first time, you can get it the next time it appears because your opponent will be unable to use it.

[WalkingTheCow]

Uh. . . This is Smash Bros. right? It kinda has that element of luck and randomness. I mean look at the hammer item or certain pokemon. I like that element to the game and I'm sure that there's an option to disable it for those who dislike it.

[Ceric]

If you are rewarding skills then I think dodges and deflections should definitely raise the meter.  Though I hope this isn't a random item but more of a earn/times coming item.

[that Baby guy]

I disagree with skill be related to the use of the item.  I have to say that when you play the game with items, skill factors heavily into who gets what items.  When I play with items, I can usually dominate capture and usage of all items, usually letting other players receive items after I have the one I want, and sometimes I try to juggle between multiple items.  I think the item itself is reward for the skill you had to use to get the item before your opponent could.

And if you can only use the Final Smash once per game, what's keeping you from disposing of the item before your opponent gets it?  Sure appearance of items is random, but there isn't going to be too many times where you and your opponent are separated by a large distance, so typically the more skilled player can claim items for himself.

On a second note, the parasol better be in this game, too.  I loved to use it as a throwing item.

[Spak-Spang]

I really don't see the problem with this item.

Yes it is powerful...but it isn't impossible to dodge.  Mario can only point it in one direction...which means you can get behind Mario...and I am willing to bet that since Mario's is such a wide attack it may be weaker than some of the other Final Smash attacks.

Link's Looks more powerful, but harder to hit multiple people,
Kirby's looks limited to range, but potentially can catch several people in the attack.

So the attack doesn't look too overpowering.

But I would like to remind that there are several items in Melee that give lucky fighters that pick up the item extremely powerful attacks.

1)Legendary Pokemon...sure you can't be positive to pick a special Pokemon but when they come they are very powerful...and the more common Pokemon are still quite powerful as well.
2)The Hammer, It was balanced much better in Melee, but it still had the power to take every one of your opponents out with ease.

I know there are more items, but I can't think of them right now.

The point is tying it to an item allows you to easily turn it off...and it provides a random element to the power.  After all, if it was based on skill then the person ahead in points or higher in skill will get to use a super powerful attack placing them further ahead in the game.  If it was based on who is losing the game, then skilled players never to use an awesome attack, and will feel that the game gives an unfair advantage to the underdog.

As it is, the game creates it as an item, and will cause a mad dash for the item...but if you feel you can't get there in time, you can start planning how to avoid it.  

[that Baby guy]

All food seemed a little unbalanced, I think.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"2)The Hammer, It was balanced much better in Melee, but it still had the power to take every one of your opponents out with ease."

And it still wasn't impossible to counter toe-to-toe, depending on your character.  Some could sneak in a hit between Hammer animations, and some like Mario had the ability to deflect it.

[Adrock]

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thatguy wrote:
Sure appearance of items is random, but there isn't going to be too many times where you and your opponent are separated by a large distance, so typically the more skilled player can claim items for himself.

Not necessarily. If the Smash Ball appears literally right next to me and you're not too far away, you better say your prayers. If the Smash Ball was equidistant between two characters, chances are that the faster character will claim it and the slower one is a sitting duck having no Smash Ball and being slower to boot.

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Spak-Spang wrote:
The point is tying it to an item allows you to easily turn it off...and it provides a random element to the power. After all, if it was based on skill then the person ahead in points or higher in skill will get to use a super powerful attack placing them further ahead in the game. If it was based on who is losing the game, then skilled players never to use an awesome attack, and will feel that the game gives an unfair advantage to the underdog.

I suggested the option of turning off the meter. Regardless, the Final Smash attack isn't the problem. By snatching the Smash Ball, you didn't necessarily earn the right to use the Final Smash. If I earned a whole life lead over you, why should I possibly get screwed over if the Smash Ball happens to land in your vicinity? As an item, I see it potentially being very cheap. I know items in Smash often rely on luck and randomness and that's why I don't think it should be an item. As a character-unique move, I think it should part of the character's repertoire of moves.

However, advanced players should be be able to use advanced techniques. If you're good enough to charge the meter (which I wouldn't consider easy), why shouldn't you get to use such a strong attack? I find this way far more balanced. Want that fancy move? Earn it... and the closer you get, the bigger a target you become since everyone can see how close you are to filling the meter. I like the idea that pwning increases the meter while getting pwned decreasing it. Adds a bit more strategy to the game.

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As it is, the game creates it as an item, and will cause a mad dash for the item...but if you feel you can't get there in time, you can start planning how to avoid it.

That's not too different than trying to pwn at much a possible to fill the meter while also preventing others from filling theirs... and if you can't stop an opponent's meter from filling, you can start planning how to avoid it.

Hey, I realize my point is moot because the Smash Ball has already been establshed. I just think the concept of a meter is fairer and requires more strategy. It's a more complicated for newer players, but I think it's a good tradeoff and it could be turned off. Then again, they could have 3 options: Smash Ball/Smash Meter/Off.

Anyway, the Final Smash move creates quite a conundrum. If I turn the Smash Ball off, I'll never have access to Zero Suit Samus. The reliance of that item to use her makes it hard to master her play style. I see that as a problem for many reasons. And if I'm KO'd, does Samus come back in her suit or not?

[Kairon]

Everyone stop talking. Smash Ball is AWESOME. It maintains a level of unpredictability, newb-accessibility, and fun chance that is an essential part of Smash Bros.

Stop trying to hardcore my game!

[that Baby guy]

Kairon's right.

Adrock, you neglect to mention varying level designs and also forget to factor that while one person is getting the Smash Ball, the other player isn't just going to sit there.  On top of that, the superior player is going to have control of the inferior player enough that he or she will be able to control the game enough to get whatever item he or she wants.  If the match is close, this item could be a tipping point, but isn't that part of the reason why the game has items in the first place?

[Shecky]

I skimmed the points, but Karion and thatguy are right...

Besides, it takes skill + luck with use of any items... even the hammer took some skill/luck.... (pick it up on a cloud, whoops...) and is all about the mentality of the player.  Most of the time we played, getting the bat was a challenge in the sense that the other players would be ready to avoid, use a shell, kirby rock the user, etc.  

Mario's smashball example is great at showing this too.  You have to get it, and then position yourself well in accordance to the field and your opponents.  Chances are you'd want to head TOWARDS Mario to "flee"

On top of all that, it's an item, and hence falls under the item switch.

[Adrock]

There's a page and a half of how to multiply the abbreviation of SSBB and now someone says stop talking. Are you kidding me?

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Kairon wrote:
Stop trying to hardcore my game!

I would argue that the game is pretty hardcore as it is. Smash has always been easy to get into yet extremely difficult to master. Think you're good... play someone new (especially at a local tournament or something) and kiss your testicles goodbye (if you're a girl, adjust the statement accordingly). And a veteran player will always run circles around a newbie. Always. I don't want to hear how a skill based meter would put the match leader even more ahead because a better player can just pwn either way. Want to change that? GET BETTER AT THE GAME. A meter simply rewards advanced players, adds more strategy, and as I suggested twice already, would be optional. I love options. Come on, who doesn't?

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thatguy wrote:
Adrock, you neglect to mention varying level designs and also forget to factor that while one person is getting the Smash Ball, the other player isn't just going to sit there. On top of that, the superior player is going to have control of the inferior player enough that he or she will be able to control the game enough to get whatever item he or she wants. If the match is close, this item could be a tipping point, but isn't that part of the reason why the game has items in the first place?

Everything I said still applies. A skill-based meter prevents getting cheaped out. In a close match, I'd rather strictly  skill, not luck, determine the winner. If it really came down to the wire, no player would have a full meter because everyone would be good enough to prevent that from happening. However, as I understand it, the Smash Ball can be held (if it's automatic upon touching, it's useless) and I'd hate for a match to go down like that.

[that Baby guy]

If you don't want luck involved, turn off the items, like they play at all the other tournaments.  Meters are Capcom and SNK's stuff.  Items help Smash Bros. be what it is.  Besides, you barely know anything about the Smash Ball as is, just a short explanation.  Do you really want to poo-poo it so early?

[Kairon]

I HATE meters. Smash Bros. is beautiful because is HAS an element of luck and chaos and unpredictability. It's beautiful because NEWBIES can understand it without hacing to worry about a whole bunch of onscreen indicators (can you imagien FOUR meters?!?!?!) to learn about and to pay attention to.

Smash Bros. is beautiful because it ISN'T a traditional fighting game. Don't make it into one. Because then Smash Bros. will be DEAD.

[Shecky]

I think there's two different mentalities butting heads here, kind of like everything I guess (even some earlier pokemon rants :p )....

So one side hates not having his skill directly correlate to his score and wants a very structured and systematic match.

The other side doesn't mind having 4 player with items on high, and the challenge of having to deal with the chaos.  With stolen kills, shell tosses across the field, and hammer threats.

The funny thing is that smash has always given the option to help cater to both sides, with options like the item switch and plain flat levels.  SSBB is taking that and polishing it even further (day nite of the flat levels) and adding a bit of extra kick to make it even more exciting (smashball).... if you like that sort of thing.  Heck I wouldn't be surpriesed if they came out with a new mode or something to cater to Adrock's type.  The tournament was a start of that in SSBM, as was some of the other options.

[Kairon]

DEAD I SAY!

... I have no problem with people turning off items... if they want. I do it often. But items are the natural way to play the game for me.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I HATE meters. That is all.

It's systematic, meter lovers can probably tell you the exact formula of how it builds in strength for their favorite game.

On that note, I'm on the chaos side of SSB.  I like the challenge of trying to deal with it all and setting people up for all sorts of crazy maneuvers

Edit:  Heh, I guess it's Kairon's turn to rant