Topic: Manhunt 2 from Rockstar? Whoa...

[Kairon]

SO! What they should do is...

... AO release on PC, M release on PS2, PSP and Wii. Would that be good?

[Smoke39]

That seems like the best choice provided they can't get their rating appealed.  That way they still get their game out on the consoles, and still get their "original vision" out there for at least a few people to see.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Like I already said earlier in the thread...... "Hot Coffee", only "accidentally on purpose" this time.

[Kairon]

Behold! New York Times!

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But given the structure of Manhunt 2 it should be fairly simple for Take-Two and the boards to reach an accommodation and release a redacted version rated M for Mature in time for the December holiday season. Whenever it does ship, Manhunt 2 is likely to enjoy a level of public awareness (and potentially sales) that it could never have attained without the ban. That of course may well have been what its makers intended all along.
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The problem is that in addition to just hitting a bad guy a couple of times with a bat, there are other options, like slitting his throat, sticking a scythe in his nose and yanking his head back.
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But these execution scenes are optional and don’t seem to last more than 10 seconds. If a highlight reel was largely made up of such clips, it could give a skewed impression of the overall game. Instead players spend most of their time thinking about how to move and avoid being swarmed by guards.
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After visits to two Manhattan DVD stores I found an R-rated version of “Saw II.” (For “Hostel and “Saw III” I could find only the more extreme unrated cuts.) With some trepidation I put it on and the first scene was of a young man in a bleak cell being taunted to find a key by digging into his own oozing eye socket. If he does not yank out the key in 60 seconds, his head will be crushed in a spiked metal “death mask” around his neck.

Later, after someone else is burned to death in an industrial oven, a character cuts a hole into the back of his own neck. As the camera cut in for a loving view of the gaping wound, it was clear why the genre is sometimes called “torture porn.” Unlike the digital models in Manhunt 2, these were real people.

[ThePerm]

they never released a regular version of Hostel on dvd, they only have the unrated version. Directors have to deal with the mpaa just to get it into theaters, when releasing it on dvd you only need a different version than what the mpaa rated to have an unrated version. you could add bunnies and flowers into the movie and it would still be an unrated version.

"Later, after someone else is burned to death in an industrial oven, a character cuts a hole into the back of his own neck. As the camera cut in for a loving view of the gaping wound, it was clear why the genre is sometimes called “torture porn.” Unlike the digital models in Manhunt 2, these were real people."

their not real people, their props made to look like real people.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: ThePerm

their not real people, their props made to look like real people.

The graphics in Saw II were THAT GOOD.

[Pittbboi]

It bothers me that few people seem to be acknowledging the different between interactive and non-interactive entertainment, and constantly bring up movies as though the two forms correspond perfectly. I don't think that's the case.

The difference between movies like Hostel and games like Manhunt 2 is that one is watched and played, while the other is simply watched...

[Kairon]

N'Gai Croal and Stephen Totilo discuss the merits of ManHunt (part 1).

It's a long read, but chock full of intelligent discourse, a very measured approach (especially since they admit they've played only five missions into the AO rated version), imo. In fact, this first talk sets the basis for later ones, because they actually talk a lot about the first Manhunt, banned and challenging films in general, and all that jazz.

Also, it features some mindblowing insights, like the following about the first Manhunt:

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The second reason I was so taken with Manhunt is because of what you mentioned in your opener: the man who has rescued you from execution and brought you to the abandoned town of Carcer City, where you must kill or be killed, all for his amusement. And as you point out, he gives you orders through your earpiece. He tells you where to go. He tells you what to do. He tells you what minimum level of violence he'll accept in the surveillance camera-meets-snuff film killings that you must commit for his pleasure before he will open the doors or gates that will let you proceed to the next area. He sounds awfully familiar, doesn't he? His name? The Designer--I mean, the Director. Yes, at the heart of Manhunt is a brilliantly twisted joke. Rockstar grabs the translucent veil of mildly disreputable innocuousness in which most action titles cloak themselves, tears it open and exposes the sinister truth that lies just beneath the surface: in an awful lot of videogames, the developer and the publisher are asking you to virtually kill an awful lot of virtual enemies, over and over and over again. Manhunt is just more honest about this than most, and cleverly, brutally so to boot.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
The difference between movies like Hostel and games like Manhunt 2 is that one is watched and played, while the other is simply watched...

I think everyone knows that difference. The point where people converge is in guessing at the effect of that difference.

[ThePerm]

if your being vicarious watching, and acting aren't all that different, another difference though is in a video game, its video game. Nothing is real. 100 years or less from now we'll have the ability to simulate everything on an atomic level..meaning in a game you could do anything...and it wouldn't be that unreal.

[ThePerm]

Kairon, that was a pretty good article there. It makes a good point, unless you have a thorough background of experiences,  than your going to perceive any work of art differently. I found it quite cool that he mentioned "the most dangerous game", because I remember reading it along with many other short stories in high school.

You know alot of Hitcocks greatest works precede the mpaa, Psycho was before the mpaa and was one of the first horror movies to not be a goofie monster kids film. "The birds" is based on Daphne du Maurier's short story. The movie is still terrifying, the only thing that sets it back nowadays is its oldschool dialog

one of those things iv always noticed is that it takes along time for every new art form to get accepted. I'm an art major, and it took centuries for painting to get where they are. In fact nowadays the point of art is to OFFEND. every medium goes through this. Painting, writing, movies, music, and now video games....food

yes food, nowadays everyone eats sushi like its the coolest thing to do, but previously it was thought of as gross.

[Kairon]

Yeah, i remember them forcing us to read "The most dangerous game" in school too. I also LOVE sushi!!!

... AND I've developed the ability to be vicarious, which almost borders on a sort of "in-their-shoes" sort of empathy. I can even play games vicariously, if I want to. My little brother hates me for forcing him to play FFVII, for example.

[couchmonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm

yes food, nowadays everyone eats sushi like its the coolest thing to do, but previously it was thought of as gross.

I'm opening a new dog-crap restaurant to test this theory.

Ah, but I guess the idea is that Manhunt 2 could be sushi instead of dog crap.  Fair enough!

[ThePerm]

i love sushi, but you know..people eat bat shit.

[Kairon]

More Stephen Totilo and N'Gai Croal debate on Manhunt 2.

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But in so deftly arguing why games and gamers should be treated with the same respect for intelligence and range of taste as films and filmmakers, you managed to write 3700-plus words that never describe any of the features of Manhunt 2 that would obviously set it apart in many people's minds from any movie they've ever seen or ever heard of.
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Any meaning ascribed to an activity comes from two places: the doing and the context. For games--unlike other narrative media--the story is merely the context, the backdrop and the stage upon which the poor players strut and fret, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Would "Macbeth" have been as deep had it been a Manhunt-like action-adventure? (Sneak into the chambers of rivals like King Duncan and Macduff and murder them, while being urged on by the whispers of Lady Macbeth over your headset!) A Grand Theft Auto-ish open world game? (Rise from lowly squire to King of Scotland!) Or an Oblivion-esque role-playing game? (Carry out quests for the three witches! Solve their riddles! Battle the enchanted trees of Birnam Wood!) I'll let you imagine what Super Paper Macbeth and The Legend of Lady Macbeth: Twilight Queen might have been.
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And we were playing it on the Wii, which, as you know, is not my console of choice, and as a veteran of the DualShock 2 controller, I didn't find the Wii controller a more immersive substitute, simply because it's not yet second nature to me. Particularly during the stealth kills, the Simon Says-like gesture matching meant that I was always conscious that I was playing a game, whereas the thoroughly familiar Dual Shock 2 would often feel like an extension of my thoughts. (So much for the BBFC's claims that there's exceptionally little distancing.)
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[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
More Stephen Totilo and N'Gai Croal debate on Manhunt 2.

Quote
...
But in so deftly arguing why games and gamers should be treated with the same respect for intelligence and range of taste as films and filmmakers, you managed to write 3700-plus words that never describe any of the features of Manhunt 2 that would obviously set it apart in many people's minds from any movie they've ever seen or ever heard of.
...
Any meaning ascribed to an activity comes from two places: the doing and the context. For games--unlike other narrative media--the story is merely the context, the backdrop and the stage upon which the poor players strut and fret, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Would "Macbeth" have been as deep had it been a Manhunt-like action-adventure? (Sneak into the chambers of rivals like King Duncan and Macduff and murder them, while being urged on by the whispers of Lady Macbeth over your headset!) A Grand Theft Auto-ish open world game? (Rise from lowly squire to King of Scotland!) Or an Oblivion-esque role-playing game? (Carry out quests for the three witches! Solve their riddles! Battle the enchanted trees of Birnam Wood!) I'll let you imagine what Super Paper Macbeth and The Legend of Lady Macbeth: Twilight Queen might have been.
...
And we were playing it on the Wii, which, as you know, is not my console of choice, and as a veteran of the DualShock 2 controller, I didn't find the Wii controller a more immersive substitute, simply because it's not yet second nature to me. Particularly during the stealth kills, the Simon Says-like gesture matching meant that I was always conscious that I was playing a game, whereas the thoroughly familiar Dual Shock 2 would often feel like an extension of my thoughts. (So much for the BBFC's claims that there's exceptionally little distancing.)
...

I think the biggest problem with this kind of comparison is age. Books have been around since the dawn of time. Film has been around for far more than a century. Games have only been around for a couple of decades. It's still a very young medium. No one's willing to take it serious yet so you're not seeing anything really serious being done with it. We don't know what books look like when they first begun to be written because those early books don't exist any longer. However, we can look back at film when it first appeared. If I'm not mistaken it too was tossed aside as a useless and pointless media for a very long time. Today it's considered vast and artful. Everyone watches them. They've pervaded almost every aspect of our life. There are entire school dedicated to them.

I wouldn't be adversed to playing games based off of great works of literature. In fact, I think it's a great idea, if done right. I don't see most developers doing it right though. The closest any developer seems to have gotten to making a game based on a book is making a games based on a movie based on a book. There's so much more they could do if they actually tried to make the game a new and different expression of the book. Look at the Harry Potter games. There's already so much in the books that don't appear in the movies. Why doesn't the developer take the chance to make the game a new experience rather than just follow the big events in the film? It seems all rather pointless to me. So many possibilities squandered in an attempt to do little more than cash in.

Until the people actually making the games start to take them seriously I highly doubt that anyone else is going to either.

[IceCold]

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The closest any developer seems to have gotten to making a game based on a book is making a games based on a movie based on a book

Well, aren't we going to get that Agatha Christie book-turned-game as an adventure game on Wii?

[Kairon]

What about Discworld?

[UltimatePartyBear]

What about The Hobbit?  For that matter, Lord of the Rings Online is based on the books because the movie license was taken, as I recall.

[ThePerm]

books havn't been around as long as you think, the novel wasn't developed right away.  Also party bear...the hobbit was a horrible game

[Deguello]

The problem with talking to these game journalists is that none of them are authorities on human psychology, so them pontificating about it is somewhat irrelevant.

Games must mature as their own medium, not ride on the coattails of other mediums.  And furthermore, both of these guys still link violence and sexual content to "adulthood."  Its like, even though those two fellas are over 18, they still act like they need to prove it.  The fact that this insecurity infects those who supposedly represent us in the mainstream is a severe disservice.

Games don't need to follow the path of movies and books.  But the fear by those that profess these games as "art" is, if games were to trudge down their own path, we'd get neutral games like Mario and Zelda, Pikmin and Cake Mania, finding new ways of interactivity while treating plot secondary, which is what games started as.

Games can only evolve as themselves, not as interactive versions of other things.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
The problem with talking to these game journalists is that none of them are authorities on human psychology, so them pontificating about it is somewhat irrelevant.

Games must mature as their own medium, not ride on the coattails of other mediums.  And furthermore, both of these guys still link violence and sexual content to "adulthood."  Its like, even though those two fellas are over 18, they still act like they need to prove it.  The fact that this insecurity infects those who supposedly represent us in the mainstream is a severe disservice.

Games don't need to follow the path of movies and books.  But the fear by those that profess these games as "art" is, if games were to trudge down their own path, we'd get neutral games like Mario and Zelda, Pikmin and Cake Mania, finding new ways of interactivity while treating plot secondary, which is what games started as.

Games can only evolve as themselves, not as interactive versions of other things.

So basically we have no idea how to even approach the topic then, huh?

[Deguello]

At the very least we shouldn't get our arguments from Rockstar.  I mean they have a product to sell, after all.  And we should treat the "other side" with respect, even if they don't warrant it (including Mr. Thompson.)  And furthermore, we as a group should refrain from linking violence and sexual content to developmental maturity.  And for the time being, we should possibly abandon the "Games are art" argument until more people understand the terms around it.  For the time being, it's just drawing lines and confusing people on both sides.

And we should definitely have our games press people stop reporting it as a "controversy" or a debate."  That's the sort of thing that started that anti-evolution crap in Kansas.

[couchmonkey]

So we're all agreed, it's time to shut down the forums?

Ha, interesting points, Deg, but mostly...it's just plain FUN to debate this type of stuff.  I've been following Croal and Totolito's debate, it's interesting.  I particularly find it interesting that it may be the game's sexual content getting it banned.  The porno flick scene sounds like the type of material that could easily scare the ESRB away...and since they only view video of the "worst" bits of the game, it's likely that this exact content was sent their way.

[that Baby guy]

Well, Gonintendo's reporting some sort of rumor about the game being released as an Ao game on the Wii.  Whether or not this is true, I stand by the opinion that the banning of Ao games and content is an NOA policy, and not that of the entirety of NCL.  Essentially, I think the policy was archaic, first off.

Now, I do think Nintendo will change the policy sooner or later, and this rumor points to sooner.  Anyways, it's all really up to what NCL will allow.