Author Topic: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel  (Read 16752 times)

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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2006, 01:14:59 AM »
Well Pap I was just talking about FPSes in general most of them just have the save the world or stop the alien/demons from hell types of story. I do know that there are specific exceptions but in general the FPS genre is in trouble unless some really awesome games come out. Hopefully Bioshock on 360 will change my mind on the state of FPS and I hope Far Cry (on Wii) turns out well.
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Offline RickPowers

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2006, 02:38:17 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Reading the impressions and a couple of posts in this thread has made me realize that now I can't trust reviews at all, even less than before ...


You shouldn't trust any one review.  Reviews are opinions, and everyone has one, just like ... noses.  

Seriously, you could do what I do, which is find the one reviewer who's previous reviews pretty closely align with your own tastes, or you can check all reviews in aggregate and go based on that.  But for the most part, reviews are just a snapshot in time, colored by expectations and perspective, and that all needs to be taken into account when you evaluate a review.
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Offline vudu

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2006, 05:47:33 AM »


I fail to see your nose, good sir.  
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2006, 06:03:44 AM »
I recommend renting a game or borrowing a friend's copy if reviews are mixed and you are not sure if you will enjoy the game or not. That's what I plan on doing with Red Steel later on.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2006, 08:19:18 AM »
Last night at 2:30 ish my friends finally left the room and I was about to go to sleep after messing around with COD3. I popped in Red Steel.

2 hours later I was surprised by how much I DID NOT dislike this game.

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2006, 08:44:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: RickPowers Seriously, you could do what I do, which is find the one reviewer who's previous reviews pretty closely align with your own tastes, or you can check all reviews in aggregate and go based on that.  But for the most part, reviews are just a snapshot in time, colored by expectations and perspective, and that all needs to be taken into account when you evaluate a review.


Eloquently put.

I like the game because:

1. Action is quick and simple: unlike most FPSes, it's readily possible to be a flawless killer and put only one bullet through every head in the entire game (except the ones you swordfight).

2. Explosions, explosions, explosions! I know it's a time-honored tradition in FPSes, but there's nothing better than detonating a barrel, car or forklift near an enemy or two and watch them go sailing through the air.

My guess is that the game saw most of its development on a PC before being ported to the Wii hardware. I'm guessing Red Steel 2 won't suffer from the problems this one did because Ubi has actual hardware to work with and won't have any illusions about what the Wiimote can and cannot do, not to mention they'll likely be able to more precisely tune the motion sensing to allow more direct control of swords and such.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2006, 09:24:34 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

2. Explosions, explosions, explosions! I know it's a time-honored tradition in FPSes, but there's nothing better than detonating a barrel, car or forklift near an enemy or two and watch them go sailing through the air.


No doubt.  What's funny is that for some reason I wasn't expecting that in Red Steel.  The first time it happened, I was shooting down from a catwalk at a couple of bad guys in the pit under a car.  When I hit a fuel can behind them, there was a very satisfying kaboom.  Then I looked around and realized there were several fuel cans around me, and I got the heck out of there.  That was crazy.  Nearly everything in that part of the level could blow up, leaving very few safe places to hide.

Then there was the shotgun battle in the laundromat, with washers getting blasted left and right, and the rooftop shootout between the exploding HVAC units with electrical arcs shooting out.  My favorite so far has to be the two baddies who hid behind a paper screen.  I couldn't see them, but that didn't stop me from reducing it to splinters to get them.

I know a lot of that has been done before, but the presentation here just sells it.  It feels like I'm playing an action movie.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2006, 07:31:59 PM »
It gets even better as you get further into it. Once you start getting the special attacks, the game becomes immensely more strategic.
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Offline decoyman

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2006, 04:41:29 AM »
Hey SB, I'm really glad to hear that you and others are digging the game. I bought it but haven't tried it out yet (I got the dreaded WiiConnect24 error #110213, and I don't want to progress in any games until my replacement Wii gets here from Nintendo), and reading all the mediocre reviews had me a bit worried that I'd made a poor purchasing decision... I'll give my impressions when I actually try it out, but I'm more hopeful hearing some positive impressions.
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Offline ShyGuy

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2006, 04:50:40 AM »
Don't let the jaded haters distract you decoyman, It's a good game. Reminiscent of Max Payne in a number of ways.  

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2006, 08:11:45 AM »
There are some glitches in the game, but none that are game stopping by any means.

Though, if you get vertigo easily, I'd recommend sitting as far from the TV as possible. God knows, I haven't had the problem but apparently some people have.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2006, 05:12:46 AM »
Also, let me say this: if this game makes you motion sick, Steve, please, let someone else review it.

The game doesn't make me motion sick and is one of the most satisfying gameplay experiences I've had in a long while. Plus, you don't understand just how much love Ubi really put into this game until you get to the point where you start running missions to try to restore the Sato empire, learning new sword techniques and focus timing gun maneuvers.

It's perfectly acceptable to say that Red Steel isn't a game for everyone due to some having motion sickness (like I said, CoD3 falls under the same heading and is even worse) but whoever reviews it needs to play it all the way through and do so without needing a puke pail.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2006, 06:03:29 AM »
VGcats is already willing to give the game a big thumbs down as well:
"Also I got my Wii but didn't bring it with me. Did get to play it for a bit though. Word of advice for anyone getting games. Rent Red Steel first. My first sit down with it was pretty bad. I'll review it fully when I get back. Wii Sports however is tons of fun."

I just wonder WHY the game gets such a bad rap in the US. Europe seems to like it (I wouldn't be surprised if the reason the game gets better scores is because it was developed in Europe, but still...) and even freaking Famitsu, a JAPANESE magazine (true we all have talked about how Famitsu likes to give high marks to every popular game), who have stated they don't enjoy FP shooters much, gave it a solid review.

I wonder what is it about the game that drive American editors mad...
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2006, 06:24:05 AM »
I just wonder WHY the game gets such a bad rap in the US. Europe seems to like it

Maybe because the Wii has been released in the US?

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2006, 06:33:31 AM »
"I wonder what is it about the game that drive American editors mad..."

The European thing might be, as you suggested, overrating a European made game.  Plus they haven't reviewed it yet.  Perhaps it's because Americans are used to first person shooters.  It's a very popular franchise here.  So maybe they just aren't all that impressed because they've played so many FPS games they have higher standards.  Famitsu probably doesn't like FPS games that much.  Maybe Red Steel's gameplay mechanics are such that it makes them interested so they give it more of a chance.  It's possible that in the past they would play what we would consider a fantastic FPS and be bored with it because they don't like the key gameplay behind it.  But they don't see Red Steel in the same light.  It's a quirky gun and sword game.

Offline Svevan

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2006, 08:46:22 AM »
Nintendo gamers have lower standards for first person shooters. This is why the reviews say it sucks, but the people on the boards tend to like it.

Of course, someone is going to respond to this post and say "I played both Half-Lifes, both Halos, love F.E.A.R., Prey, COD, etc etc but I love Red Steel." Whatever. My point is that N64 may have had some good shooters, but GameCube was teh suck in this regard. If the last FPS you played was Perfect Dark, my bet (without having played it) is that you'll like Red Steel. I'm a Halo gamer, moderate FPS fan, and I may rent the game to see what I think.

Also, disregard Rick's nonsense about opinions - there are some people here who believe in objective truth (well, at least one person). In my case if I disagree with a reviewer I tend to think he's WRONG, not just of "different mind." That's ridiculous. Can two opposites be true?
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Offline WindyMan

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2006, 08:56:49 AM »
I finished the game.  There's a pretty steep learning curve, but once you get over it, Red Steel is a pretty decent launch title.  Head shots are wonderfully easy to pull off, though there are problems with the aiming.  Sword combat is hit and miss, too.  I'm going to see if I can track down some other people to play multiplayer with before I get the review up.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2006, 09:43:13 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
Nintendo gamers have lower standards for first person shooters. This is why the reviews say it sucks, but the people on the boards tend to like it.


But still, if the game was indeed the worst launch title ever, wouldn't Nintendo fans agree as well? I doubt fanboys would go to great lengths to say they love a game that they truly think is really bad.

As I stated millions of times, Red Steel is just one of those games that the only one that will appreciate it are the fans. Geist and Chibi Robo were the same; hated by the media, LOVED to death by the fans. Same goes for movies. There's a good chance that half of the movie you hold dear and love to death are HATED by the mainstream media simply because it doesn't meet the standards other higher profile movies have. I doubt its more than just "Nintendo fans have lower standards". If a game sucks even a hardcore Nintendo fan will state it.

As for the FPS comment, Svevan, why "whatever"? Don't the FPS fan's opinion matter when discussing Red Steel? Obviously, if they played all of those FPS you mentioned, then they will be able to tell what Red Steel did right and wrong (after all, nearly all reviews state "Red Steel sets out to re define the console FPS" or something similar).

And about Rick Powers' comments, what do you mean? Are you saying that his claims that reviews are merely opinions are nonsense and that they are more than that?
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Offline Kairon

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2006, 10:49:45 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
Nintendo gamers have lower standards for first person shooters. This is why the reviews say it sucks, but the people on the boards tend to like it.


I disagree. Nintendo gamers don't have LOWER expectations for FPS', we have DIFFERENT ones. We prefer FPS' that have gameplay-focused features and can give us something beyond the everyday. We are less impressed by slightly prettier textures and ZOMG FUTURE TECH and gun pr0n and etc.

THAT's why we find Red Steel better than the reviews. Red Steel gives a feel to the shooting genre that can't be found anywhere else. When I play an FPS, shooting is always the same. But in Red Steel, the tactile feeling of physically aiming at enemies almost verges on an arcade-like sensibility.

Screw graphics, screw glitches, screw typical FPS story and setting: this is something DIFFERENT based on its gameplay and NOT based on little tweaks in FPS formula. And as a gameplay-focused Nintendo fan, I can appreciate that.

Of course, Nintendo fans would have liked more multiplayer options and less graphical glitches, and we eagerly await the game that takes Red Steel and fixes its mistakes while making its control system go to the next level, but we don't immediately discount the game for it's lack of traditional hardcore FPS features either.

... Of course I'm actually speaking for myself... because if we were talking about Geist, then I'd WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you Svevan: Nintendo fans are lieing to themselves about THAT game.

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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2006, 11:11:37 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
Nintendo gamers have lower standards for first person shooters. This is why the reviews say it sucks, but the people on the boards tend to like it.


I disagree. Nintendo gamers don't have LOWER expectations for FPS', we have DIFFERENT ones. We prefer FPS' that have gameplay-focused features and can give us something beyond the everyday. We are less impressed by slightly prettier textures and ZOMG FUTURE TECH and gun pr0n and etc.

THAT's why we find Red Steel better than the reviews. Red Steel gives a feel to the shooting genre that can't be found anywhere else. When I play an FPS, shooting is always the same. But in Red Steel, the tactile feeling of physically aiming at enemies almost verges on an arcade-like sensibility.

Screw graphics, screw glitches, screw typical FPS story and setting: this is something DIFFERENT based on its gameplay and NOT based on little tweaks in FPS formula. And as a gameplay-focused Nintendo fan, I can appreciate that.

Of course, Nintendo fans would have liked more multiplayer options and less graphical glitches, and we eagerly await the game that takes Red Steel and fixes its mistakes while making its control system go to the next level, but we don't immediately discount the game for it's lack of traditional hardcore FPS features either.

... Of course I'm actually speaking for myself... because if we were talking about Geist, then I'd WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you Svevan: Nintendo fans are lieing to themselves about THAT game.

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I take it you finally got around to playing Red Steel?

As for Geist, I admit I loved the game, but that doesn't mean I was happy with its issues.

1. The difficulty is uneven. There are parts in which you are able to move freely without any worry and attack incoming enemies with ease, while there are others that are hard as hell and the enemies storm you like crazy.

2. Same thing with bosses. Some are VERY straight forward, while others took A LOT of patience and skills to defeat them. The last two bosses are prime examples of this. Volks actually took a lot of time to finish, while the last one was easy if you could maneuver Raimi just fine.

3. The FPS engine is slow as hell. True, the game is NOT about shooting everything in sight, but that doesn't mean they could've polished it further. I mean, the aiming and reloading are god awful, ESPECIALLY during timed missions, which every second is sacred, and if those seconds are spent slowly reloading your gun, its game over.

4. The button smashing segments near the end bugged the HELL out of me. By the end my hands and fingers were hurting like crazy! It's a good thing this ONLY happens near the end of the game cause if this happened often I would've given up on it.

5. Due to the aiming issue, you has to position yourself in an exact manner when possessing a person or item. This got irritating during certain parts of the game.

6. Maybe I am alone on this, but I hated flying around like crazy trying to figure out what to do next. I would spent like 20 minutes flying around a room, knowing I had to posses something but not being able to find it.

7. And finally, I hated the part where you had to drag the dog all the way to the guy. I admit I LOVED the end result, but the in between part was tiring and annoying as hell.

Still, despite these issues I LOVED the overall concept. The puzzles, while sometimes irritating, were the best. I mean, there's nothing more satisfying that creating a chain of events that gets a person scared, leaving you to control their bodies and move the story forward.

Geist wasn't the best FPS EVER, but its far from forgettable and I applaud the fact that N-space dared to do something new and exciting. I hope they get to develop for the Wii and learn from their Geist mistakes and polish their games further.

So I speak for myself when I say I am NOT lying when I say I loved the game, but that doesn't mean I can't point out its flaws.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2006, 11:22:59 AM »
"But still, if the game was indeed the worst launch title ever, wouldn't Nintendo fans agree as well? I doubt fanboys would go to great lengths to say they love a game that they truly think is really bad."

Fanboyism is the videogame equivalent of beer goggles.  It took months for me to admit to myself that Star Fox Adventures sucked.  I had been hyped about Dinosaur Planet for at least a good solid year, the graphics and sound were good, the game wasn't glitchy and the controls were responsive, it was published by Nintendo and made by Rare.  It had so many elements in theory going for it.  Plus it was also Rare's last Nintendo game and at the time of release the Cube was in stiff competition with the Xbox and couldn't afford any duds.  My interest in Nintendo made it so that SFA HAD to be a good game, not just so that I got my money's worth but to support my tastes and my "pick" in the console wars.  So I forced myself to like it until I got to a point where the game became such a damn chore to play I gave up on it.

Sometimes when you WANT a game to be great you subconsciously fool yourself into thinking it is.  Red Steel is an important title.  It's an important demonstration of the Wii controller.  It's also a "gamer's game".  And it's third party.  And it's "mature".  Nintendo's best Wii title is a Cube game ported to Wii controls.  It is a great demonstration for how a traditional control scheme can be converted to motion control but not a good demonstration of the concept period.  Red Steel is in theory the best proof of concept in the Wii launch.  It can prove that motion control can be used for a game that hardcore gamers can be interested in and that third parties won't be goofed up by the weird controller.  If it sucks then everyone pointing to it as a proof of concept for Nintendo's new control standard has egg on their face.  Motion control can work well for traditional games and party titles like WiiSports but can it innovate hardcore games?  If Red Steel sucks then so far that answer is "no" or "we'll have to wait until Nintendo releases more games".

I haven't played Red Steel (or even the Wii; where are my demo units Nintendo?) so I can't say if Red Steel sucks or not.  Nor can I say for certain that people here are subconsciously pretending the game is great.  But that CAN happen.  I'd say the best reviewer for a Nintendo game is someone who owns several consoles not made by Nintendo and thus has no emotional interest in any one console doing better than another.  There is no bias for or against and they have a broad range of games they're familiar with so they have lots of compare with.

Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2006, 12:16:55 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"But still, if the game was indeed the worst launch title ever, wouldn't Nintendo fans agree as well? I doubt fanboys would go to great lengths to say they love a game that they truly think is really bad."

Fanboyism is the videogame equivalent of beer goggles.  It took months for me to admit to myself that Star Fox Adventures sucked.  I had been hyped about Dinosaur Planet for at least a good solid year, the graphics and sound were good, the game wasn't glitchy and the controls were responsive, it was published by Nintendo and made by Rare.  It had so many elements in theory going for it.  Plus it was also Rare's last Nintendo game and at the time of release the Cube was in stiff competition with the Xbox and couldn't afford any duds.  My interest in Nintendo made it so that SFA HAD to be a good game, not just so that I got my money's worth but to support my tastes and my "pick" in the console wars.  So I forced myself to like it until I got to a point where the game became such a damn chore to play I gave up on it.

Sometimes when you WANT a game to be great you subconsciously fool yourself into thinking it is.  Red Steel is an important title.  It's an important demonstration of the Wii controller.  It's also a "gamer's game".  And it's third party.  And it's "mature".  Nintendo's best Wii title is a Cube game ported to Wii controls.  It is a great demonstration for how a traditional control scheme can be converted to motion control but not a good demonstration of the concept period.  Red Steel is in theory the best proof of concept in the Wii launch.  It can prove that motion control can be used for a game that hardcore gamers can be interested in and that third parties won't be goofed up by the weird controller.  If it sucks then everyone pointing to it as a proof of concept for Nintendo's new control standard has egg on their face.  Motion control can work well for traditional games and party titles like WiiSports but can it innovate hardcore games?  If Red Steel sucks then so far that answer is "no" or "we'll have to wait until Nintendo releases more games".

I haven't played Red Steel (or even the Wii; where are my demo units Nintendo?) so I can't say if Red Steel sucks or not.  Nor can I say for certain that people here are subconsciously pretending the game is great.  But that CAN happen.  I'd say the best reviewer for a Nintendo game is someone who owns several consoles not made by Nintendo and thus has no emotional interest in any one console doing better than another.  There is no bias for or against and they have a broad range of games they're familiar with so they have lots of compare with.


Yeah, that's true. I won't deny that some fanboys are pretending the game is fantastic because of the hype.

But even then, if the game was as god awful as the reviews mention it is no amount of hope would cover up the fact that the game sucks big time.

Some would go to that length, yes, but when you have a really, really bad game in your hands you just can't deny it. So this is why I say I doubt ALL the fans are pretending to like the game in order to counter the reviews.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2006, 06:00:19 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: pap64
Still, despite these issues I LOVED the overall concept. The puzzles, while sometimes irritating, were the best. I mean, there's nothing more satisfying that creating a chain of events that gets a person scared, leaving you to control their bodies and move the story forward.

Geist wasn't the best FPS EVER, but its far from forgettable and I applaud the fact that N-space dared to do something new and exciting. I hope they get to develop for the Wii and learn from their Geist mistakes and polish their games further.


Hah. Well, when I first heard about it, I loved the concept too. The difference is that when I played it, I didn't even find most of the puzzles to be very exciting. They can, and should, go further with the concept.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2006, 06:14:13 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: pap64
Still, despite these issues I LOVED the overall concept. The puzzles, while sometimes irritating, were the best. I mean, there's nothing more satisfying that creating a chain of events that gets a person scared, leaving you to control their bodies and move the story forward.

Geist wasn't the best FPS EVER, but its far from forgettable and I applaud the fact that N-space dared to do something new and exciting. I hope they get to develop for the Wii and learn from their Geist mistakes and polish their games further.


Hah. Well, when I first heard about it, I loved the concept too. The difference is that when I played it, I didn't even find most of the puzzles to be very exciting. They can, and should, go further with the concept.

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Yeah, some puzzles were really fun while others were a bit too straightforward.

The middle of the game features some fun puzzles, like the ones where you take possession of clocks in order to open doors and such.

Oh and the puzzle where you had to figure out how to kill the dignitary during the simulator? PRICELESS.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: Red Steel
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2006, 06:14:19 PM »
Huh? Double post? My bad...
Pedro Hernandez
NWR Staff Writer