Author Topic: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business  (Read 25584 times)

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Offline BiLdItUp1

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2006, 07:55:18 PM »
Quote

"I believe they can claim that the imported units are, in effect, different units that function in the same way, thus violating the copyright. Saying that Sony is still getting the money doesn't necessarily work because Sony Europe is not still getting the money."


That is total bs. Fact is, copyright as a term is being abused by big corporations and rights holders as a bludgeon; this could be a case in point. See here and here for other examples of this.]

Wait, I just read Jonny's post...seems like the copyright stuff was secondary...aight, but still, the point remains.

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Offline BigJim

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2006, 09:01:36 PM »
I said wow...
"wow."

Offline Klapaucius

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2006, 11:14:55 PM »
This is f*cking disgusting.

I'm going to really miss lik-sang. I've ordered from them a few times, and they're great. This sucks so much!! There's so much I want from lik-sang!! X__X

This is just Sony trying to get back some of its losses for thew whole laptop battery scandal. Ugh.

Okay, all and any remaining respect for Sony has been lost now.

Offline Deguello

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2006, 01:24:54 AM »
I'm going to come in on the side of Ian Sane here (SHAWK HORROR!  The Case For Ian?) and say this is pure evil as well.  Nintendo basically has the moral high ground in the fanboy wars for another 10 years or so.  You can say what you want about shady prcitices and harsh treatment of 3rd parties in the 80's and smalltime price fixing in the 90's but they never outright killed a company.

Sony wasn't smart.  The way to stop people importing foreign systems before the local launch is to bring it to the terrirtory ASAP, not sue the place after the fact.  It wasn't Lik-Sang's fault Sony made the PSP launch in September 2005, almost a year after the Japanese launch.  Sony's customers in Europe were anxious and restless to get one and instead of supplying them they waited a whole year and tried to swarm the US Market with them.  And the very fact that Sony's own employees used Lik-sang extensively is a chief point of hypocrisy.  So it's good enough for Sony's own employees, but not for Sony's fans?  Please.

This is crap.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2006, 04:10:38 AM »
Sony has already said they think Europeans are used to waiting and won't mind. I think as a protest it would almost be a goosd idea to buy both the Wii and the 360 ASAP so Sony not only loses the sale they realistically would never have gotten from us but are put one sale behind both of their competitors. Even if the PS3 continually sells out, if the competition is selling better (and it can because of the limited PS3 production) Sony loses leverage and more and more publishers are going to tell them to go screw themselves if they keep asking for special treatment ("We don't want you to simply give us a port, add extras for us!" "That game looks worse than our usual games, put it in a compilation or we won't let you sell it!" "Announce a game for the PS3 at E3 or we won't let you publish this game for the PS2!")

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2006, 05:32:40 AM »
I think Lik-Sang could have handled this more professionally.  In particular I've heard that Lik-Sang actually leaked the names of Sony employees that used its services, which is quite awful.  Of course Lik-Sang has nothing left to lose, so I guess you could say it has positioned itself as a type of suicide bomber with these final statements.
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Offline Bloodworth

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2006, 06:06:16 AM »
Leaked?  They're blatantly announced in the press release.  They're pissed obviously, but they didn't really have to name names to get the point across.
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Offline Nephilim

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2006, 06:20:08 AM »
You should update this artical, and point out that Lik-sang refused to remove psp from sale in euro like play-asia, then didnt even show up for court

seems there is alot of flaming being done in this thread
geez its was lik-sang's fault its closing down due to dumb management, stop blaming Sony

Offline wandering

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2006, 06:29:17 AM »
Quote

Sony has already said they think Europeans are used to waiting and won't mind. I think as a protest it would almost be a goosd idea to buy both the Wii and the 360 ASAP

I was thinking about buying a PS3, then only using it to play used PS2 games and DVDs.

Anyway. I still don't understand how selling imported game systems in Great Britian was declared illegal. I wish someone had some quotes from the judge or something.

edit: here we go.
Quote

At the time of the October 10 case, the presiding judge, Judge Fysh, said: "The acts of which complaint is made have in my view been perpetrated not in Hong Kong but here in the EEA [European Economic Area], and without Sony's consent. Moreover, it would make no sense if intellectual property rights in the UK could be avoided merely by setting up a website outside the EEA crafted to sell within it. Were the acts of which complaint is made to have been committed physically within the EEA they would unarguably have been infringing acts. I cannot see how the electronic intermediary of a website which focused at least in part on the EEA would make it any less so."

Except that clarifies nothing. Lik-sang isn't off the hook because they're based in Hong Kong, great. How are intellectial property rights being infringed upon? Sony mentions stuff about safety standards and lik-sang misleadingly advertising the product so that consumers might think it plays european umds or somesuch. But what does that have to do with intelletual property?  
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Offline AnyoneEB

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2006, 06:59:28 AM »
Quote

arguing that Lik-Sang advertises the Sony products "in a
dishonest manner" and "unlawfully interferes with Sony's economical
interests".

Now there's a new one. Can I sue some European government for unlawfully interfering with my economical
interests by not giving me a million dollars? Sounds pretty sweet.

The copyright question was clarified in Jonny's post, but that only justifies a cease and desist, not a lawsuit. Suing for mirrored material is ridiculous, but reasonable under copyright law.

In the US there is a concept called the first-sale doctrine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine ), which basically says that once something has been sold (say, to Lik-sang), the buyer may do whatever they want with it, including resell it. I assume other countries have similar laws. If Sony does not want Lik-Sang selling their products, they could simply not sell them to Lik-Sang in the first place. (I assume Lik-Sang was buying direct from Sony.)

Offline wandering

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2006, 07:54:03 AM »
Quote

Suing for mirrored material is ridiculous, but reasonable under copyright law.

But it seems like the thing about mirroring material was secondary.

This entry on parallel importing has helped clear things up for me. Apparently, buying something that is cheaper in one country and then selling it another country where it is more expensive may be considered a violation of intellecual property, if the entity that created the product doesn't agree with the sale. That doesn't make much sense to me, but there you have it.

Now, lik-sang argues that, since the practice is legal in the country they are based in, the ruling doesn't make sense. And falafelkid also argues that the judge may not even have the authority to give such a ruling, or something. But it seems like, instead of appealing, lik-sang is just saying 'bah, lawyers are expensive. Let's just close up shop instead!' Which doesn't make sense to me. If they knew they couldn't afford to defend themselves in court, why didn't they just honor Sony's request to stop selling PSPs in Europe in the first place?
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2006, 08:44:31 AM »
The copyright question was clarified in Jonny's post, but that only justifies a cease and desist, not a lawsuit.

Generally a C&D is issued out of goodwill, the IP owner could bring a lawsuit instead. Though I think this was a trademark dispute, not copyright.

I wonder if Nintendo could have used that same trick to legally pricefix back when they were sued by the EU?

If they knew they couldn't afford to defend themselves in court, why didn't they just honor Sony's request to stop selling PSPs in Europe in the first place?

Because a default judgement can and will still include any damage claims Sony makes so Lik-Sang could be hit with damage claims and their Lik-Sang Europe stuff confiscated.

Offline Klapaucius

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2006, 11:50:50 AM »

Offline Faithinchaos

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2006, 01:57:23 PM »
The obvious joke here is that Sony may have a point when it comes to personal injury/death with the amount of power that thing brings down.

But really, its quite funny that Sony refers to their goods as "grey market" when purchased thru Lik-Sang. As though Lik-Sang didn't purchase them through the exact same means as Best Buy, Wal-Mart, or any other retailer.
Sony could EASILY file an injunction to prevent Lik-Sang from redistributing its goods, or - I know this may surprise some - NOT sell three 600 unit pallets to the a Mr. Obvious Alias residing at
Broadway Centre, Room 2104, 21/F
93 Kwai Fuk Road
Kwai Chung, NT
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But Sony has to do it their way.
Like, take Nintendo. I thought they were bitches to get the GBA reader/writer taken from LS, but they had good reason, and they sought to fix the issue. I beleive they even recovered some "losses and damages" BS in the matter.  LS however is not overreacting now, because Sony chose to sue to set a precedent, and follow through based upon that. Now region J PSPs can be illegal to distribute in the same vein - that the adaptors haven't passed some regulation or whatnot. Funny, any Japanese retailer can price gouge without hesitation, limit, nor any need to restrain whatsoever. But LS won't be able to export them?

How incredible to see LS call out Sony's execs. I might beleive they purchased them for the reasons given, but still - if somebody's screwing up, you don't hand them your money. Not where *I* come from, at least.
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Offline wandering

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2006, 02:22:29 PM »
Good write-up by the BBC there. Grey market, huh? Here's what wikipedia has to say:
Quote

Unlike those on the black market, grey market goods are not illegal. Instead, they are being sold outside of normal distribution channels by companies which may have no relationship with the producer of the goods. Frequently this form of parallel import occurs when the price of an item is significantly higher in one country than another; this situation commonly occurs with cigarettes and electronic equipment such as cameras.

I'm back to completely not understanding this lawsuit.
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Offline Nephilim

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2006, 04:31:16 AM »
Wandering that was only one of the charges, it was also the CE approval in Europe

"1. CE Marking on a product is a manufacturer's declaration that the product complies with the essential requirements of the relevant European health, safety and environmental protection legislation, in practice by many of the so-called Product Directives.*

*Product Directives contains the "essential requirements" and/or "performance levels" and "Harmonized Standards" to which the products must conform. Harmonized Standards are the technical specifications (European Standards or Harmonization Documents) which are established by several European standards agencies (CEN, CENELEC, etc).
CEN stands for European Committee for Standardization.
CENELEC stands for European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardization.

2. CE Marking on a product indicates to governmental officials that the product may be legally placed on the market in their country.
3. CE Marking on a product ensures the free movement of the product within the EFTA & European Union (EU) single market (total 28 countries), and
4. CE Marking on a product permits the withdrawal of the non-conforming products by customs and enforcement/vigilance authorities."

notice number 4, Japanese PSP didnt have a CE logo
which makes me wonder if the japanese DS has approval

Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2006, 05:41:52 AM »
Personally if I was Nintendo.  Made a region free game system and didn't just go ahead and get every approval for it at design time so I didn't have to worry about making unique hardware for just one segment of the world.  I probably question the efficiency of my design process.  Though I don't know if Certification is retroactive.  So maybe they are delaying the release of the GBA Ultra  to Europe because the EU just haven't given them the approval.  Though they are doing the approval on the version 1 retail unit.  So any imported unit is the version 1 at least that lets say then gets approved.  Since the Version 1 initial shipment in other parts of the world already happened are the products out there also covered by the certification even though the couldn't undergo logoing?  Just something to think about.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2006, 09:23:24 AM »
DeadlyD: Nope, the japanese PSP has a CE certification so that doesn't matter.

And I really don't think CE certification is necessary for imports, that was just Sony spouting BS and I'm not sure the judge even accepted that claim (though you can claim black is white when the defendant doesn't show up).

Offline wandering

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2006, 11:07:10 AM »
Finally found a good article on parallel importing and the grey market.

Wikipedia is full of crap. Here's the deal. Compaines don’t want anyone to be able to buy products in one region, where they’re cheaper, and sell them in another region, where they’re more expensive. So, they say importers who do this violate trademark laws.

…‘Huh?' you say. ‘What does selling legitimately purchased, imported goods have in common with, say, illegally selling a book titled Harry Potter (TM): The Lost Adventures'? The answer is nothing, of course. The companies aren't worried about their IP - they're worried about their ability to fix prices. But, they wouldn't get very far in court arguing that they have a right to gouge consumers and block free trade... so they argue they have a right to protect their trademarks from being diluted, instead.

…I know your next question. How could imported goods possibly dilute the quality of companies’ trademarks? Well, let's say, for example, someone imports a Japanese PSP, and he can't read Japanese. Because he can't read Japanese, this person has no idea the instruction booklet warns people never to play with the PSP in the bathtub. So, he plays with it in the bathtub, and gets electrocuted. A man has died from a product with Sony branding, and it's the fault of those no good importers.

Some countries buy into this line of reasoning, and some don't. The United States doesn't. Japan and Hong Kong don't. Europe does. A product made for sale outside the European Economic Area (EEA) can't be sold inside the EEA without the trademark holder's permission.

Lik-Sang, of course, did not have Sony's permission to sell PSPs within the EEA. So Sony could claim lik-sang was infringing on their trademarks, and damaging Sony.

...That was Sony’s big weapon in it's fight against lik-sang, but it wasn't their only one. They also brought up unfair competition laws, false advertising laws, and even electrical certification laws, just to make doubly sure that the psp sales would be stopped. Also, to make sure lik-sang was as overwhelmed as possible, they even sued for a manual lik-sang had copied onto their website, even though lik-sang had already taken it down at Sony's request.

Lik-sang had only thing they could use in response: the fact that they were based in Hong Kong, where the European laws Sony was throwing at them didn't apply. But lik-sang was out of luck. The judge thought that, because they had a website that was set-up to sell products within the EEA, European laws should apply.

The rest is history.  
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Offline Ceric

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2006, 11:13:39 AM »
Sort of like if you have a server or physical presence in Tennessee you must charge sales tax even though its an online purchase.

I have to say I'm getting to hate the EU courts more and more.  They keep doing things that effect the whole world in the eyes of there own little piece.  There like the Southern Baptist.
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Offline Faithinchaos

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RE:Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2006, 01:22:32 PM »
Thanks, wandering.
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Offline wandering

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2006, 02:46:13 PM »
Welcome.
“...there are those who would...say, '...If I could just not have to work everyday...that would be the most wonderful life in the world.' They don't know life. Because what makes life mean something is purpose.  The battle. The struggle.  Even if you don't win it.” - Richard M. Nixon

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #72 on: October 27, 2006, 12:18:39 AM »
What I'm still not clear on is if the judge accepted that or if he just said "the defendant didn't show up, here's a piece of blank paper, write your desired judgement".

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2013, 01:19:57 AM »
Six+ Year Mega Bump for Justice!

http://consumerist.com/2013/03/19/supreme-court-says-reselling-books-bought-overseas-does-not-violate-copyright/

While this doesn't 100% apply to the Sony/Lik-Sang case, I immediately thought of it when I read this.

The only difference I see is that this ruling came out of the US while Sony's issues were with the UK courts.  So, it's a positive thing for US folks. :D
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Sony Puts Lik-Sang Out of Business
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2013, 10:17:15 AM »
The ruling only applies if the product is legally sold in that other country. So it would not apply to pirated copies, for example.

It doesn't really apply to the Sony situation at all. Funny reading some old posts and seeing some people and the false claims about who was right and why.
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