Topic: EDITORIALS: There is No Definitive Zelda

[Nephilim]

"Makes me wonder how on earth OoT would be possible on SNES"

well downloadable content isnt available on gamecube, yet is on wii

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
As far as I am concerned, this is a tired, tired argument. I hope it falls asleep from exhaustion soon.. When Wii controls were first rumoured (a hell of a long time ago), I wrote long-winded posts about how I was against them being implemented, as I was worried about the negative effects stemming from the decision. When they were finally confirmed, I was disappointed, but I have gotten over it since. There's nothing we can do, and I'm sick of all the discussion about it. Sure, this won't be the true Zelda built exclusively with the Wii in mind, utilising the controls and the hardware to their fullest extent. But it will still be a damn good game, and the controls will be fine. There were mixed impressions from E3; some glowing, some biting. I have decided to not let any one of them influence me.. Playing a game with a whole new control method, especially one which is so familiar on other controls, can't be easy. This is even truer at E3, where there is so much pressure, and the environment is far from comfortable. I remember when I first used the N64 analogue stick, I hated it. I just couldn't control it well, after years of playing with a D-Pad. This is a similar situation, except even more accentuated.

I am going to wait until the final build of TP gets into the hands of the media. When people actually have time to adapt to the controls under suitable conditions, we'll see what the impressions are then. At this point of time, I would take Miyamoto's word over any single person's experience with the game at E3. I've said this before; if there's anyone who can pull this off, Nintendo can.

Great post Ice, I do think the best thing EVERYONE can do is wait until people are able to get their hands on the final build. Could Nintendo be double dipping? Perhaps but all that means is you better be careful what you choose, it isn't that hard and gamers have been doing that for quite awhile with multiplatform games with some versions missing some features.  

[Pale]

I'm not trolling.  With all the negativity around this game its just important to me to point out that not everyone feels the same.  Evan's opinion is legitimate and there are probably more readers who agree with him than readers who agree with me.

Again, all I'm saying is that not everyone on staff hated the controls at E3.

[UncleBob]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pryopizm
When a person ignores that the kernel of the complaint is Nintendo double-dipping without providing a single definitive experience, and, instead, build a straw man argument, it's very easy to make someone appear foolish.  Of course, anyone who has bothered to read the article (agree or disagree) will see through it immediately and find out quickly who the foolish one is.

Again, as I said in my post, no one complains that EA Sports releases different, multiple versions of the same game across different consoles.

For a company that released 15-20 year old games, individually, at $20 each with (virtually) no new content, it's hard for me to understand why anyone thinks Nintendo would be above this "double dipping".

Outside of that, I don't really see this as "double dipping", per say.  First, each game is made for a different system - one is designed for play on the GameCube and one is only for the Wii.  Did anyone ever complain of "double dipping" when a movie studio would release a movie on VHS and DVD at the same time?  Second, Nintendo is being pretty upfront about two different versions - it's not as if they're releasing the GCN version, then three months later, popping out the Wii version.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I was thinking that maybe it is possible that the Wii version does have some slightly different puzzles that are only Wiimote compatible, that would be a legitimate reason not to have GC controls in it.

[KDR_11k]

Or different combat balancing. Just minor changes to the gameplay can be a reason to ditch the GC controls since the game wouldn't play the same on the GC and Wii anyway.

[NWR_Lindy]

Maybe it'll be like the rumble pack with Ocarina, where if you have it you'll feel a rumble as a clue - an extra feature that's there if you have the Wiimote, but doesn't directly affect the story.  But with the amount of extra dev time involved with this one, there has to be extra content (e.g. more puzzles) in the Wii version.

This is a unique situation.  Nintendo needed a reason to make people buy Wii, and since the GameCube is dying, it made perfect sense to move what would have been the biggest Cube game ever over to Wii.  And if you're going to move it over to the Wii, you might as well take the time to add extra stuff that's Wii-exclusive, including the control scheme.  It's a showpiece game, so Nintendo has to make it a showpiece for everything Wii has to offer, especially the control scheme.  I can see why they dropped GC controls...why have them in there?  Why not force people to use Wii the way it's supposed to be used, to get the whole experience?  Don't let them cop out by using GC controls, that accomplishes nothing for Nintendo's mission.

This is just like Wind Waker.  Before that released, people were up in arms and acting like it was going to outright suck.  When everything was said and done, it turned out to be a GREAT game.

And yeah, I played Zelda at E3, and thought that the controls were fine.  Aiming with the bow and arrow was too difficult, but nothing that couldn't be solved with a few more months of polish.

[Ian Sane]

"You know what gets me? People complain about Zelda being multi-platform and yet no one complains that Madden, Sonic, Call of Duty or whatever other game is multi-platform. Sure, the Wii version of TP is going to offer things that the GCN version doesn't, but hey, Madden 07 for XBox 360 feautres online play and the GCN version doesn't."

Actually we did complain about that, like three years ago.  It just isn't talked about much anymore because the Cube is nearly done anyway.

My beef is the whole thing about the Cube controls supposedly not working.  That just sounds like a flat out LIE because the SSB guy suggested otherwise.  Plus using needless limitations YOU put in your own hardware as an excuse is pretty weak.  There's an obvious incentive in trying to get people to buy two versions.  We've got a motive, a wishy-washy contridiction, and a company that has a reputation for jerking people around.  That just makes it a little hard to believe this whole Zelda stuff is innocent.

And those wishing this argument will go away, sadly it never will.  We still talk about Wind Waker's graphics.  With two versions there will always be discussion about which version is better and that will respark this argument again.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

Hey, it's funny, Ian - since you came back from vacation, you seem a lot more laid back. When I read your posts, I don't get a stressed-out voice in my head anymore. It's nice.

As for this issue, I haven't played either version, so I'm not qualified to say which one's going to be better. Soley based on what I've seen, I want to try out the Wii version first. I've played Zelda on the GameCube - I know what to expect there. On the Wii, though - that's a new adventure. Maybe it'll rock, maybe not, but I'm willing to take that chance.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I have trouble ascribing this just to greed.  I think the Zelda development team is full of creative people, and it's quite possible that they wanted to use the Wii controller from the moment they started thinking about the possibilities.  The two versions would then be a compromise that lets the team do what they want while still fulfilling the promise of another Zelda for the GameCube.

On the other hand, it's a fact that Nintendo is greedy.  I tend not to view that as evil, though.  Murder is evil.  Rape is evil.  Taking advantage of your customers' fanaticism and collecting impulse is just business.

[Ian Sane]

"I can see why they dropped GC controls...why have them in there? Why not force people to use Wii the way it's supposed to be used, to get the whole experience? Don't let them cop out by using GC controls, that accomplishes nothing for Nintendo's mission."

Doesn't that suggest a sign of weakness though?  Why would people "cop out" if using the motion controls truly was the better way to play it?  If these new controls really are the big deal they're being promoted as then it shouldn't matter.  People will pick the new controls because they're supposedly more exciting, more inviting, and more fun.  Supposedly people are to be naturally attracted to them.  I think not including the old scheme shows a lack of a confidence in the new control scheme, like they have to avoid people making direct comparisons between the old and the new.  A really great new control scheme should be so good that direct comparisons should be welcome because the new one is just going to cream the old one.

The thing is the "cop out" is still there, it's just that people have to buy a different version to cop out.  I'd argue that's worse because someone who doesn't want to try the new controls won't because they'll buy a version that doesn't offer them.  If one version had both control schemes then even the skeptics would probably try the motion control method just because it's there and they're curious.  But with this they either have to take the plunge or play it safe.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I'll get both versions and tell you about the differences next July, mmkay guys?  THAT'LL SOLVE EVERYTHING, RIGHT?

Really.

[GENERALIZATIONS] Really, the Wii version is the definitive one simply because I think it will ultimately sell *MUCH* better than the GameCube version.  It is the one people will be TALKING about, since that's the one they'll HAVE.

The GameCube has an insignificant, horrible so-called "fanbase".  What incentive is there to continue supporting the dead system?  Will all those late adopters who picked up Super Smash Bros. Melee for $20 throw their weight behind TP-GC?  Will the early GameCube adopters, thirsting for a new console, take a few steps back and fall down a generation of stairs to buy a game designed for the previous system?  I'm not even going to make the assumption that the early GC adopters are "hardcore" Nintendo fans, cuz looking at sales for titles such as Pikmin 1/2, StarFox Assault, and Metroid Prime 2 (heck, RE4), it doesn't seem like there's enough "early adopter fans" available/living/breathing/internetting to care for a severely delayed last-gen game in the presence of an upgraded version on a new system they ALREADY PLANNED to buy (cuz you know, they're so-called early adopter hardtime longcore Nintendo playing Pokemon graduates).

[Pale]

I don't think it's a lack of confidence Ian.  I think Nintendo understands the fact that the controls are significantly different than anything gamers are used to.  There is a learning curve to the the new scheme.  There is probably a certain concern that new players will jump off that curve too early, damming the new scheme before they truly understand it.  Having both control modes would allow for just such a situation.

The reason why I liked TP so much at E3 was because it did still control in the most classic sense.  The pointing was just used in parts where pointing made sense.  This has changed slightly since the cryptic talk that they are putting all sword control into the motion sensing now.  That right there proves that NO ONE has played the Zelda game as it will be when it delivers.

If people are this concerned about enjoying the Wii version with the fancy controls, maybe they should start being concerned over whether they will like the Wii at all, seeing as, in many ways, those things are one and the same.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I see Pale is successfully holding back the launch of PlanetWhiineCube.com

[Ian Sane]

"If people are this concerned about enjoying the Wii version with the fancy controls, maybe they should start being concerned over whether they will like the Wii at all, seeing as, in many ways, those things are one and the same."

Admittingly I have been concerned about that from day one.

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm amused by the suggestions that we should just wait until it's out before discussing the merits of either version.  What do you think we do at this site, honestly?  Nintendo wants the games to be discussed early...that's why they let us play the games before they are finished.  Yes, you have to temper many arguments with the fact that the games are not finished and that we have played only a fraction of them, but that doesn't mean the discussion is worthless.

[KDR_11k]

I think if they changed some mechanics for the Wii version allowing GC controls would break the game. E.g. the counter system in Wind Waker was too damn easy to use, what if they now expect you to perform the counter yourself and actually guide the sword to hit the weakpoint for MASSIVE DAMAGE instead of simply pressing "dodge and hit weak point"? What if enemies have more complex attack patterns in the Wii version that require faster actions to defend against? What if they tried to remove context-sensitive button hotspots completely so you'd have to notice a mechanism without the game telling you "hey, you can use that!"?

[Bill Aurion]

I can't wait for the actual game that everyone will be playing, regardless of what version they purchase...The end...

[mantidor]

"If people are this concerned about enjoying the Wii version with the fancy controls, maybe they should start being concerned over whether they will like the Wii at all, seeing as, in many ways, those things are one and the same."

I disagree, Im not concerned about the other games, hell even madden sounds interesting, which is a huge achievement. Its analog to what happen with Mario 64 DS, I never was interested in the game at all for a similar reason, but that doesnt mean the other games for the DS sucked when I finally played them.

[Svevan]

Although I appreciate thoughtful discussion on all sides of this issue, I wanted to throw out one thing: I was not intending yet another Wii vs. GC controls debate. The quality of the Wii controls is unknowable now, and I await the chance to play the game again with a fresh outlook. The main point is whether Nintendo should encourage us to buy the Wii version when they are leaving out a separate version of the game they have already developed and are releasing separately. They want the Wii version to be definitive, but they're not proving it with their actions - indeed their actions will lead people away from the "ultimate" Zelda and towards its bastard (read: classic) brother.

Some excellent points about learning curve and the risk of including both control methods in the game were made, and I agree: if Nintendo includes both schemes on the Wii disc, it is possible that players would discard Wii controls before they master them and resort to the familiar GC controls. But these people will have the opportunity in the future to play the Wii version for no extra cost, and this could ingratiate the Remote to them. In contrast, under Nintendo's current plan to release two separate versions, those who out of fear purchase the GC version instead of the Wii version will not have the same opportunity. Also, a Zelda game originally engineered for GameCube should not be the make-or-break Wii game, but Nintendo has set it up that way.

Finally, a point that I chose not to include in the editorial: there are 21 million GameCubes out there right now but only 5 million Wiis are promised before the end of 2006. With a Zelda game of this magnitude I think Nintendo is hoping TP will outsell Wii machines, which will only happen if they sell a ton of copies for GameCube as well. Perhaps Nintendo is making sure that Zelda sells on BOTH systems, discarding the idea of a definitive version and making each version separate and valuable for their respective audiences.

And finally, to everyone: forgive my drama and constant complaining. It is not my intention to be the staff whiner, but it has been my action and that's not appropriate.  

[Pryopizm]

Damn you, Evan!  You stole our thunder!

[Kairon]

Darn you Evan! Why do you have to be all perfect and everything! Just when we thought we'd found achink in your armor and would have just cause to villify you, you go all logical and sensible and level-headed on us!

Oh no, you're not getting away that easy! One of these days you'll slip up, and then LIKE HOUNDS we'll be on you!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Jonnyboy117]

Quote
Originally posted by: Svevan
And finally, to everyone: forgive my drama and constant complaining. It is not my intention to be the staff whiner, but it has been my action and that's not appropriate.

You're not to blame; that's just how you talk.

[BigJim]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
If people are this concerned about enjoying the Wii version with the fancy controls, maybe they should start being concerned over whether they will like the Wii at all, seeing as, in many ways, those things are one and the same.

Hence my adoption of Wii60. Whether intentional or by accident, they're gonna be a second console.

Perhaps the problem is Nintendo's lack of sufficient communication to make the case for the new control scheme in the first place. It's becoming apparent that they need the new controller more than we do. The more I think about the 2 different Zelda controls, the more I think neither one will be particularly better than the other. They'll both be good so we could be happy with either one. So the controller very quickly becomes "Meh".  It's Cocoa Pebbles now with more chocolatey flavor, but it still tastes the same.

Edit: With exception to the few new types of games that might crop up strictly due to point/movement capability, and not just replacing buttons with movement.  

[Mario]

Quote
If people are this concerned about enjoying the Wii version with the fancy controls, maybe they should start being concerned over whether they will like the Wii at all, seeing as, in many ways, those things are one and the same.

Not at all. I'm massively excited about games that use the Wii controller properly, like Rayman and Wario Ware.