Author Topic: Ye olde cel-shaded debate, again. (Read 9768 times)

Marcus Arillius · « **on:** March 03, 2003, 07:32:42 AM »

Okay, I know this is an old debate, but I didn't see any topics generally defined for it in the Zelda forum so here goes.

I saw this quote on Nintendo's website about why the cel-shaded Zelda is better: "The series' classic mix of sword-swinging action, perplexing puzzles and stirring story lines remains intact while the new toon-rendered graphics enable the characters of Link's world to be the most lively and expressive personalities gamers have ever seen."

This doesn't cut it for me. Programmers can put what they want in games no matter what they look like. I have some more I'd like to say but I want to leave it open for debate.
Shoot.

Gibdo Master · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2003, 07:47:02 AM »

I think the point is is that it would have been much harder if not impossible to make Link as expressive as he is cel-shaded if they used realistic graphics. I don't know if you have played the demo or watched videos of the game but it is really amazing all the facial expressions he makes in game. I'm not just talking about happy or sad either. There are subtle difference in his facial expressions that help him come to life. You don't feel like you are controlling a zombie puppet with cel-shaded Link. In most realistic games (and cartoony games as well) your character has a dead zombie expression with glassed over eyes that stare forward all the time. Ironically despite the fact that the art style is cartoony the cel-shading makes it so they can make all the characters look like they are alive and therefore more realistic.

Koopa Troopa · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2003, 07:50:22 AM »

Gee, I wish I could express my gratitude for your bringing this idiotic ARGUMENT back into the boards. Piss off will ya.

Quote
This doesn't cut it for me. Programmers can put what they want in games no matter what they look like.

Programmers? I hate to break to ya but it is the artists, and animators who deal with character expression. And no, you can't get as expressive or vibrant using "realistic" graphics; why? Because with cartoons you can over-dramatize without it looking out of place, its expected and accepted with cartoons. True human expression, on "realistic" models, is much different, human expression is subtle and precise(Even we have a hard time faking smiles, scowls, etc.). Personally I didn't much care for the spaced out, half smile expressions of the characters in FFX.

Quote
I have some more I'd like to say but I want to leave it open for debate.
Shoot.

Really? Gee, I hope it isn't as outsandingly brilliant as the first comment.

Marcus Arillius · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2003, 08:10:51 AM »

Well, if anything, we can thank you for turning this DEBATE, into an ARGUMENT by directing your vulgar language toward me. It obviously isn't that idiotic if in a large portion of the threads in the Zelda section, there are intelligent debates ALREADY going on about this very topic. And I hate to break this to you Koopa, but without the programmers you have no game. They PROGRAM what the game will look like, what the characters will do and how they react to things. It doesn't matter who does it, they can make things look expressive (with the help of the animators and artists) even if they have a realistic style. And when I say Programmers I'm using as a general term for the makers of the game. I'll have to remember not to make mistakes from now on if this is what comes of it.

Koopa, This would have sufficed as a reply:
"You can't get as expressive or vibrant using "realistic" graphics; why? Because with cartoons you can over-dramatize without it looking out of place, its expected and accepted with cartoons. True human expression, on "realistic" models, is much different, human expression is subtle and precise(Even we have a hard time faking smiles, scowls, etc.). Personally I didn't much care for the spaced out, half smile expressions of the characters in FFX."

I'll help you revise your comments in further posts if you like, so you don't come off like a major ass next time.

By the way, Thank you Gibdo Master for your intelligent response to my thread. Its users like you that have drawn me to the planet gamecube forums.

You know what they say, its better to be pissed off than pissed on.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2003, 08:36:49 AM »

Here's an interesting story about the graphics. A few days ago I was at Wal-Mart and they had the Zelda demo. Having never played it yet I decided to give it a go (it wasn't that fun though because someone had left it paused and I couldn't tell what to do). A kid (around ten years old) noticed I was playing and we started talking about the game. We both agreed that the game was an absolute must have and we were both anticipating it's release. Then he mentioned that the graphics sucked and unfortunately weren't as good as Ocarina of Time. He wasn't trying to bash the game or anything. He was just making an observation. I asked if he wanted to play and his face lit up like I had just handed him a big bag of candy so I handed him the controller.

Anyway here was a ten year old child, Nintendo's target market, who was really interested in a new Zelda game but thought the graphics looked like crap. He didn't say they were kiddy, he said they didn't look as good as the N64 games. So that brings up an interesting point. Until now the main complaint over the graphics was that they were kiddy. But there is also the problem of people seeing a game where everything is in solid colours and the graphics aren't as detailed and therefore regarding the graphics as poor because they assumed that with Zelda everything should be more detailed. Afterall Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask both had an incredible attention to detail for the time period.

I personally like the cel-shading but I don't prefer it to a more realistic approach. Realistically I don't think Nintendo can give us these incredibly complex and detailed N64 Zelda game and then expect us to just accept a Zelda with the detail toned way down without any sort of backlash (which they've experienced). The cel-shaded look probably should have been used with a brand new franchise where it likely would have been instantly accepted.

The Caucasian Cubist · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2003, 12:57:44 PM »

The new look is awesome. I'm really glad they tried it. Hey, 250,000 preorders and counting can't be wrong. The style looks beautiful. Simply Stunning. I think that quote from Nintendo explains it very well. The creators have explained in numerous interviews the choice to go with this style and they have done a good job. I'm glad they have no regrets. Can't wait for the game.

steve · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:12:16 PM »

Koopa is right , programers and or designers can' tdo everything they want. I't might be possible to get half of links expressions if it were a realistic Link but, there's a thing called budget and time. Unless you want to wait five years and have it be Nintendos only project than they probably could do it but thayts not going to happen. Besides if the next zelda has an adult linkk in the gane than it will probably be realistically designed. So piss off about the graphics and quit your bitchen!

RockmanX · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:22:00 PM »

Dear lord....This debate I think is getting a little old. But I am glad to see the masses have come around to it. Except some of those "cooler" children. Also in all his interviews Mr. Myamoto makes it sound like the reason he went cell shaded is so that Link's eyes move, but I think he was just trying something new, which he always does, and the results were positive, as they always are.

RahXephon · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:23:45 PM »

Children, in a known fact, imatate what they see. If someone says that the cartoon zelda looks kiddy, they are gonna say they don't like it, cause all children want to be seen as mature, not kiddy. The kid argument is no good. My cousin said the same thing when he talked to an older kid in his school. I said i liked it. He then changed his opinion. To much goes on in a kids mind about what people think to take it seriously.
I Hope the zelda style is used whenever there is a kid link game, and real when there is an adult.
Real Graphics are just so booorrriiinnngggg. If i wanna see somehting real, i will go look outside. I play game to see something imaginative. Now some games do this with realism, like RE and ED, but many games don't. And i don't mean just toon shading, i mean all form of exageratted games. Like Mario. And Kirby. But not metroid. It is all about the game being created.

sequoia · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:36:25 PM »

I was skeptic when I saw the pics of zelda. Then I played the demo, Oh My God!! I faced off with the first boss and the lighting was amazing! Its just beautifull to look at. The controls were tight and awsome. Its asured my buy

If you have not played it and are a little skeptic, play it. For the love of God just play it.

RahXephon · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:44:09 PM »

i believe that wanting a game for its graphics is like watching fear factor. It is cool, buit possibly the most idiotic thing in the world.

Locke Cole · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:44:44 PM »

Nicely said RahXephon I agree with you 120%

. I'm tired with my friends at school making fun of the new Zelda game. They say "OMG this game is so g@y cause of the graphics." I tell them "Have you even played the game?" They say "NO but the graphics suck badly." SO I tell them "Well if your going to judge a game at least play the demo" Then they shut up and don't say anything about it. It's really funny though I got a guy who hates Gamecube and owns a PS2 that he can't wait for the new Zelda and it looks really cool. So I don't know whats up with people. I probably agree with RahXephon a lot beacause everyone is too worried about how people will think of them if they play a game that they think other people looks kiddie. In my world I play games to experience the story and gameplay. NOT the graphics. I mean for god sakes I sometimes play my SNES more then my Gamecube. Anyways I like the new Zelda look and think it suits the game fine. I never had a problem with it. As long as Shiggy is behind it I'm okay with it.

Marcus Arillius · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:54:51 PM »

Believe me, I have already pre-ordered. I don't hate the game, I'm just not a fan of the Graphics, and for me, a larger range of emotions is not a great reason for using "toon-shading." I know I will love the game, because of the great gameplay. I've tried to "love" the graphics but just can't. The more movies and pics I see for the game, the less I see myself growing to like it. The toon shading isn't horrible, its just not what I envisioned for the Zelda series. Don't get angry with me for my opinion because you just make yourself look bad, and completely ruin your credibility as a person with something intelligent to add the conversation.

RickPowers · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:57:57 PM »

Here's the deal. When you use "realistic" graphics, your mind expects characters and environments to move a certain way. If it isn't PERFECT, you'll notice. That's what happened with the SpaceWorld 2001 Zelda. Miyamoto couldn't make the characters and environments move in a way that in line with how they looked.

Moving to "cartoon" graphics frees them from those bounds, as our preconceived notions about how the world works no longer apply, and we can suspend our disbelief easier.

That said, the next time one of you disrespects someone with a valid difference of opinion with the phrase "piss off", you'll be banned. Capiche?

NickNiteQ93 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2003, 03:16:04 PM »

Amen Rick. Seriously, I had issues with the whole look for awhile too, but you know, I can't remember last time a Deku poped out outa the ground and shot me in the ass with a nut, or the last time a Kokiri kid asked me for some change for the ice cream man. Zelda is all fantasy, and I embrace the new look with a positive attitude. It wouldn't be Zelda any other way. However, that doesn't mean I didn't dig the realistic approach. It would just seem better if the game had spoken lingo, had a real orchestra playing the music, etc. to complement the real look. but i don't think it'll ever happen, but that doesn't mater. as long as there's zelda comin out, i'll be happy.

RockmanX · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:13:27 PM »

Bah, Nintendo is getting backlash from showing the Space World demo too I think.

Gibdo Master · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:29:47 PM »

Since I didn't actually give my opinion of the cel-shaded graphics in my first post I decided to take another shot at this. Like just about everyone else I was horrified when I first saw pics of cel-shaded Link. I was among those that truly believed that this was some sort of joke Nintendo was pulling. I also was pretty pissed because I felt Miyamoto had pulled a "bait and switch" on us. Which to be honest whether it was done on purpose or not that's what happened.

Anyway as time went by and I realized no amount of ranting or wishing was going to change the games look I started to accept it. In fact in the last 6 or so months I've started to like it. After playing ALttP and shortly after playing the Wind Waker demo all I could think was this game is like a 3D version of ALttP. Very cool. Now that doesn't mean I like the art style though. I've said it a few times here but while I love the cel-shading and feel it's the best thing to do for a Zelda game I'm really not to attached to the art style. I like the environments and most of the enemy designs but don't like how the human characters look. Well I can't say that about all of them because there are two I like. SPOILER WARNING: I think Ganondorf and the King look very good. SPOILER WARNING END. I would really like if for the next game Miyamoto would use something more a kin to the art style for Ocarina (which is still cartoony by the way) but simply make it cel-shaded. Just look at your Ocarina manual and imagine the art in it being cel-shaded.

By the way take a look at this pic here and tell me that cel-shading doesn't look amazing. Just make Link look more like the Ocarina version and it would be perfect in my opinion.

RahXephon · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:35:25 PM »

i agree, but i think link is perfect this way. Miyamoto-san himself said, it is both cel-shading and "TOON-SHADING" very important to note that. It is supposed to be a cartoon. And cartoon's, in japan any, have a good majority that are drawn in that type of way. I mean, how could you give him the big eyes without making him a giant link. And don't even say get rid of the big eyes, that is the best part, he looks so animeish.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:20:33 AM »

"If i wanna see somehting real, i will go look outside. I play game to see something imaginative. "

I've never bought this arguement for a second. In real life I don't have access to swords or fairies or Moblins, etc. Therefore seeing Zelda in a realistic style still provides an escape from the real world. Lord of the Rings looks like real life but sure as hell isn't comparible to reality. It's the same thing with Zelda. With Ocarina of Time I sure as hell never felt that it wasn't truly imaginative.

Personally I don't really have a problem with the new cel-shaded design. I just don't want the game to maintain that style forever just as I wouldn't want any particular Zelda style to remain forever. Some variety is always preferred. I also wouldn't want any sort of "cel-shaded for kid Link, realistic for adult Link" convention. Any sort of unnecessary "rule" for Zelda design is going to limit creativity.

TOY · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2003, 10:10:18 AM »

OK, my turn. When I first saw the NEW LOOK of Zelda I wanted to kill someone at Nintendo for destroying MY game. But honestly, at this point I dont have a problem with the graphics in general but I still think Link looks rediculous. And I dont care if his look is some huge fad in Japan, I dont like it, i know that all the emotions and facial expressions that he is supposed to display are due to the cell shading graphics engine, but could'nt they make him more normal looking and still get the the emotions across to the player? All that being said, my copy is already paid for and I cant wait to play it, we ALL know it will be an incredable game whether we like Link or not.

TOY

Zeth · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2003, 11:55:03 AM »

the problem is that Link isn't sexy like he was on n64 as an adult!

Anyway, I'd rather have something more LTTP-ish (Wind Wanker is different)

Marcus Arillius · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2003, 05:45:28 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If i wanna see somehting real, i will go look outside. I play game to see something imaginative. "

I've never bought this arguement for a second. In real life I don't have access to swords or fairies or Moblins, etc. Therefore seeing Zelda in a realistic style still provides an escape from the real world. Lord of the Rings looks like real life but sure as hell isn't comparible to reality. It's the same thing with Zelda. With Ocarina of Time I sure as hell never felt that it wasn't truly imaginative.

Personally I don't really have a problem with the new cel-shaded design. I just don't want the game to maintain that style forever just as I wouldn't want any particular Zelda style to remain forever. Some variety is always preferred. I also wouldn't want any sort of "cel-shaded for kid Link, realistic for adult Link" convention. Any sort of unnecessary "rule" for Zelda design is going to limit creativity.

Thank you. That is the point I'm trying to get across.

BoMbErMaN123 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:25:12 PM »

I have to admit when I first saw the toon-shaded graphics I was really angry at Shigeru Miyamato for messing up what the gaem looked like. Put as time passed, I started to realize that it doesnt matter what it looks like. After all i still like super mario bros. for the NES and it has some pretty bad graphics compared to now.

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Author Topic: Ye olde cel-shaded debate, again. (Read 9768 times)