Author Topic: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters  (Read 21298 times)

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2006, 10:34:50 AM »
Dammit, Ian. What have I said about preemptive bitching?

Wait until MP3 comes out before you worry about it. I'm sure Retro will do JUST fine with it.

Retro likely didn't even touch MPH, other than sending NST some models and the like.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2006, 10:54:26 AM »
"Not sure how many FPS you have played Ian on the PC, but I find aiming in those games to be much easier than the somewhat clunky auto-aim in MP3."

Metroid isn't a PC FPS though.  One thing that I think a lot of people miss when they suggest that Metroid should have more traditional FPS controls is that the game is designed in such a way that it doesn't need them.  If you had to shoot an enemy specifically in the head to kill him then the lock-on would suck.  But you're not put in situations like that.  Every enemy can be defeated by locking on, dodging and shooting.  Much like how Ocarina of Time doesn't have a jump button because it's designed so it doesn't need one, Metroid Prime doesn't control like an FPS because it doesn't need to.

I will admit that the lock-on system is clunky but I don't think it's because of the concept itself.  Samus is just too damn slow so if you have to turn around quickly you can't.  The relates to the backtracking complaints as well.  If Samus didn't move like a mech backtracking wouldn't seem so tedious.  To remove that element of the game would be removing a major part of Metroid.  If you just want to go forward the whole time then buy a linear action game.

There have been some suggestions regarding aiming on here that I really like.  I honestly don't like them more than the lock-on but they seem doable.

I'm just worried that since I suck at FPS games I'll suck at Metroid if they retool it to be more like an FPS.  Right now Metroid Prime is kind of like Zelda in first person so I'm good enough at it to get far.  Retro will probably make a great game but they might not make a game I personally like.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2006, 11:42:43 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Samus is just too damn slow so if you have to turn around quickly you can't.  The relates to the backtracking complaints as well.  If Samus didn't move like a mech backtracking wouldn't seem so tedious.

I think being able to freely look around with the rev controller will be the solution to that problem.  It will add a far greater range of motion than an analog stick.  There's a firm limit to how far you can tilt the stick, and to keep the game accessible, a fairly low turn rate is applied at that limit.  Without that limit, it would be feasible to allow a higher maximum turn rate.  In addition, once you're free to strafe at any time, navigating passages becomes much less of a chore.  This allows the movement speed to be cranked up without causing players to constantly get stuck against rocks and such.  It may even be workable to bring back wall jumping, dashing, and the shinespark.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2006, 12:35:17 PM »
I think the controls have little to do with the problems of adventure mode in Hunters.  The real problems are level design, game design, and repetition (which is much worse than backtracking).
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Offline ~*Adolph*~

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2006, 12:58:19 PM »
NST has said time and time before that this game was more focused on shooting, so I
expected a first person shooter not adventure.

That being said I do agree with the review but I still had fun.

I am one of the select few that can enjoy Metroid AND HALO first person game styles.

I liked the teleports in Hunters, I like that things scan faster this time, the FMV parts are nice.

However it does have several things that are very UN-metroid

1) No save points
2) Life taken away when you fall
3) no metroids


I loved fighting Dark Samus in MEtroid Prime 2 so I have tons of fun blasting away other hunters.

The same boss battles are LAME!!! Cute at first but not fun after a while.

Countdowns are to common.
Game is not portable friendly so no save spots equals you need to play the entire thing at one sitting until you find a
portal back to the ship. This makes for more hand cramping and makes it feel more tedious and boring.

Invisible checkpoints ARE BAD.

I have no problem with moust and buttons, Dual stick control, stylus controls, or lock on FPS controls .
Prime hunters adventure mode is fun in a primitave sort of way.


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Offline RiskyChris

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2006, 02:08:08 PM »
This game hurts my hand so much it's unbelievable.  Maybe I should see a doctor.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2006, 02:23:20 PM »
I realize Prime is not a FPS, but it does borrow from alot of FPS controls. It seems to me that they decided to do lock on was to avoid frustrating aiming with the controller. Metroid can still be metroid, even with a more manual aiming system, other FPS have done the same thing and kept it more exploration centered rather than action (Deus Ex, Call of Duty 1 and 2, and Elder scrolls 4 to name a few). I too am in the same boat as Ian, I am not that great at FPS though am decent at the MP games along with the above mentioned games. It would be kind of neat to have a gun attachment for the Rev to use in Metroid Prime 3!
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Offline IceCold

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2006, 03:18:03 PM »
Quote

Can anyone give me a good reason as to how Metroid Prime would be improved by going to this different control scheme?
I have said it before, and I will say it again. The 2D Metroids came first, right? And did they have a lock-on system? No, they didn't. In the jump to 3D, it was implemented since aiming was much harder using the dual analogue method. However, now, with the NRC, they have the chance to bring Metroid closer to its 2D roots. All the impressions have said that aiming with the controller is extremely intuitive. My hope is that with the controller, Retro can implement free aiming so that it's as easy to shoot without locking on as it is in the 2D games. And that's why I'm so excited about it.

And this change in controls WILL NOT change the game to an FPS. The level design, the focus on exploring and the puzzles won't just magically disappear because of the controller.
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Offline Mario

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2006, 03:18:09 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Maybe, god willing, MP3 will do away with some of the backtracking, or be kind enough to allow you to open teleports to return to certain areas.

Teleports to bypass 15 minutes of trudging along past the same respawning enemies would have saved MP2 for me.


No way, those are fun. MP3 needs backtracking.
Quote

If Samus didn't move like a mech backtracking wouldn't seem so tedious.

I disagree again! I think Samus's pace is perfect in MP and MP2, it makes the game more immersive, if she ran too fast I wouldn't be able to take in the environments as easily.

I think what Metroid Prime acheived that made it so great is the same thing Ocarina of Time achieved, the fact that basic movement is fun. Walking around is fun! Metroid Prime Hunters I don't feel that... all I feel is a sore wrist. I am greatly looking forward to seeing how Metroid Prime 3 is done though, without the restrictions of having to hold the Revolution in my other hand, the amount of freedom and ease of use should be great given they don't get too carried away.

Offline Deguello

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2006, 03:28:36 PM »
Quote

However it does have several things that are very UN-metroid

1) No save points


I think it bring the series back to its roots.  As the original game didn't have save points either.
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Offline Jensen

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2006, 03:33:54 PM »
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"As I mentioned earlier, jumping under pressure is tricky; you have to double-tap the screen, which is simple enough,"

One nice thing about jumping, you don't have to be on the ground, you can jump from halfway down a 100 ft fall if you want to.
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"I'm still on the first planet/whatever and so far I've been travelling through an almost entirely linear series of rooms. With one or two rooms repeating a number of times Halo style. In the real prime series any time a room repeated it was a small room or connecting hallway and even then the artists were careful to put some original touches in it."

The first space station thing was horribly repititious and confusing.  The planets are much better.   And the uniqueness of of every room and hallway was one of my favorite things about Metroid Prime.   I am impressed with the detail and design in Hunters.  It really feels like a mini version of the first GC Prime.
Quote

Game is not portable friendly so no save spots equals you need to play the entire thing at one sitting until you find a portal back to the ship. This makes for more hand cramping and makes it feel more tedious and boring.

Have you heard of sleep mode?  Simply close the DS lid to activate sleep mode.  It's like saving wherever you want to! And the best part is that you can resume instantly.

I actually liked the lack of save points.   It seems more plausible to have transports back to your ship at port than to have rooms dedicated to "saving".
Quote

"This game hurts my hand so much it's unbelievable. Maybe I should see a doctor."

Even so, I find it much more bearable than Mario Kart DS.


This may be the least Metroid-like game in the series, but seems to be the most like a bounty hunter game :-)



   

Offline Svevan

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2006, 04:54:25 PM »
Some choice quotes from players of Adventure Mode:
Quote

Nothing against johnny I totally see where he's coming from but I wasn't at all disappointed in the single player mode

Quote

while I agree that the adventure mode doesn't include the same level of depth that past games have had, at least Samus didn't have the sequence where she's hit with an explosion and loses all of her gear...AGAIN!

Quote

Yeah, basically the adventure mode isn't up to par. It's still pretty fun, but only when I need a break from the faster action of WiFi

Quote

That being said I do agree with the review but I still had fun.

Sounds to me like a few, just a few, are confused. Did they agree with the review or not? Do we like this game in single player or not? We say we agree with Jonny's comments, but we also really like the game. Something's wrong.

Clarification?
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ONce in awhile it would feel Metroid-like and then other times it was just a straightforward fps game.

Quote

Hunters as Im understanding it is more like doom with guns instead of keys, which doesnt mean is not fun and the truth is Im a bit tempted to try it, but it also means that its not a Metroid game.

And from Jonny's review:
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Hunters is strictly a first-person shooter and has more in common with Quake and Unreal than it does with the Metroid Prime games, much less with the original Metroid games.

Quote

You can slap these characters on whatever game you want, but no one is arguing that Mario Party and Mario Baseball are real Super Mario games.

Quote

So we can talk all day about how great Hunters is, and I will, but don't tell me it's a Metroid game just because it has Samus and her morph ball.


Here's what we're missing: a true definition of Metroid. I call on someone, particularly Jonny, to define clearly what this is. I do not wish to be antagonistic, but rather hope we can come up with some definition of what makes a game a particular type. I will pre-emptively make a few points.

1) Is upgrading really that important? It's apparently so important that we have to keep re-gaining the same abilities every game. It's gotten stale. Why is Metroid locked into this pattern? There are only so many times I can gain the Spider Ball then backtrack to Spider Tracks before I see that the actual content of this game is not what I'm doing, but when and how I'm doing it. Ergo, this world and its enemies, the aesthetic qualities and sense of exploration, space travel and villains, these are the keys. Samus' persona, her life of danger, the ever present Metroids, these are the keys. Upgrades play into exploration, but Hunters is an offshoot, poorly marketed as canonical which has gotten everyone into an uproar. If it had been titled Metroid: FPS OffShoot then you'd still complain, but you'd be less defendable. It's Metroid. I felt like Samus, I saw new things. Deal.

This is not to say that Metroid is only aesthetic, that it must "look" like Metroid and the gameplay structure can change at any time. But if we recognize that Metroid is action and exploration oriented, then the nitty gritty from there can and should change. From this point on, I only want to upgrade to abilities I didn't have in past games. Power Bombs are boring. Spider Ball is boring. Missile/Charge Beam Combos? Waste of effort. Let me fly, or climb on walls, make the world more interactive. I also cannot ignore the fact that upgrading is important - it's just not as important as stated. Metroid games are based on clever progression; gaining new abilities as you go is a large part of it. I do hold that Metroid can exist without it, though, as progression can be taught in different ways. If Samus' suit was reinvented every game, a la Link, we might be able to get by with the upgrade style of game progression, but Nintendo still sticks with the same old items even for Link. I suppose I can't hope for much from a Metroid game that takes place before the existing 2-D ones. As soon as they're set in the future, let's pray we get an entirely new Power Suit. If not, upgrading to progress is a dead system, and we are all guilty of fanboy devotion to a corpse of a game.

2) We're so obsessed with our idea of "Metroid" that we've forgotten that innovation, not nostalgia, is the key to new experiences. If I cannot enjoy a game unless I've played all the others in the series, it is faulty. If the first Metroid was the Bible by which all other Metroid games were based, then the Prime series would not exist. The innovations of story-telling through Log Book, first person, lock-on, the scan visor's added functionality, and others would have been shot down. Why cannot the next Metroid game surpass our lockstep ideas of game design? Why cannot this game utilize the basics of Samus' relationship to the universe as its guiding force, rather than the basics of past Metroid's gameplay structure? When Samus flies her ship into a dogfight in Metroid: Prime 3, no one will complain. It's a necessary extension that has been avoided, and any other new thing Retro comes up with should be embraced, so long as it is true to Samus, not Metroid.

3) Hunters is Metroid Lite. It's an offshoot. Samus has a gun. Why not shoot it? Samus explores worlds uninhabited and dead. Why not some rivalry? Samus is Samus in this game. It is more linear, but it is also a 3-D handheld, a new experiment. I find this mode of gameplay to fit my DS, even though it isn't perfect, or even outstanding. It's not full, but it is only one half of the entire game! What would've made it better? More linearity! Stop with these doors that close just to lock you into battle with a hunter. Make the entire world Quake-like! Why cannot Samus visit a place totally unlike any other environ she's seen thus far? An abandoned office building? I would love to visit a fully populated city planet in MP3, but you can't fill that world with Spider Tracks and Purple Doors.

In summary: Hunters is a good game. I like to play it. I actually had some excellent times with the single player, mainly because I was Samus and fighting some awesome guys. The worlds have visual and emotional depth, the music is good. I was immersed, though on the whole it tries too hard to match its bigger brothers. Nintendo: Why not let this game live its own life? Players: Why not enjoy it for what it is? Is it fun? Did you experience something new? We are not disinherited fanboys, we're just privy to an experiment that fails in some ways and succeeds in others. Multiplayer in Hunters, after all, is very much like Metroid in its mechanics, yet I'd bet that too counts as merely a Lost Book in this infallible Holy Text.      
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2006, 06:24:23 PM »
The Metroid series is about upgrading.  However, that doesn't mean the abilities need to be stripped away at the start of each game so you can get them all over again.  It worked fine in the first Prime because you'd never used those abilities in 3D, so they felt new.  Echoes tried to avoid too much repetition by introducing some new items, but there was still too much overlap with Prime.  What it comes down to is the developer's willingness to design new items and design a new world based around those new items -- allowing you to keep your old stuff, to a reasonable extent, at least.  Retro needs to have more courage in creating new abilities for Samus and designing around those, a message I've delivered to them every chance I get.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2006, 06:58:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario

No way, those are fun. MP3 needs backtracking.
Quote

If Samus didn't move like a mech backtracking wouldn't seem so tedious.

I disagree again! I think Samus's pace is perfect in MP and MP2, it makes the game more immersive, if she ran too fast I wouldn't be able to take in the environments as easily.


I said SOME of the backtracking, and how much more immersed can you get after you've walked through the same area five times already?

The same enemies spawning every time you walk into the room isn't immersive, it's boring. In fact, it breaks immersion, unless I'm led to believe that this room has a time-release giant beetle dispenser buried somewhere in it.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2006, 08:04:51 PM »
"I think what Metroid Prime acheived that made it so great is the same thing Ocarina of Time achieved, the fact that basic movement is fun. Walking around is fun!"

I didn't mind walking around in Zelda but in Metroid Prime encountering Chozo Ghosts again and again is a real pain in the butt.  One thing that I think Retro needs to work on is making the respawning enemies a little less difficult.  I feel they did improve this a bit a MP2 but it wasn't perfect.  In the 2D Metroid games enemies respawn but are usually much easier when you backtrack because you have a new beam or something that kicks their ass.  Some enemies in the Metroid Prime games are always hard.  The Growler thingies in MP2 were like fighting a boss everytime.

"Here's what we're missing: a true definition of Metroid."

Metroid is a game with a space theme.  It involves exploring a continuous world.  There's no clearly seperated levels as every area connects together like one big level.  There are areas but it's not like level 1, 2, 3, etc.  As you explore the world you upgrade your abilities and these abilities allow you to explore previously unreachable areas.

There's nothing wrong with innovation but when you're making a non-spinoff game I think it's important to keep the key elements intact.  There are certain parts of the game's formula that are why the game is popular in the first place.  Metroid has innovated.  Metroid Prime is very innovative with the major switch to 3D.  Metroid Fusion had this interesting virus method of collecting health and missiles.  Metroid II was built around hunting Metroids so the game didn't really have bosses in the same way the other games do.  Super Metroid is in many ways a souped up version of the original game but even it has new items and it also added the automap which greatly helps the game.

I will agree that it would nice to have some new abilities.  That sort of thing is hard to do and some abilities (like jumping higher) are so basic that it would actually not make sense to not include them.  Nintendo does have this problem with Zelda too.  It would take a lot of creativity to think of entirely new upgrades (though I imagine morphball, bombs, and missiles would stay).  I don't necessarily think Nintendo sticks to familiar abilities for nostalgia but just because it would be so hard to make up entirely new stuff.

Offline Bloodworth

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2006, 09:11:48 PM »
Ian is right about the respawning enemies.  They should be the type of creatures that even if they take a little extra time to kill, they aren't as comlex as fighting boss.

I think the real key to upgrading is for there to be significant areas opened up - that you don't get back to a section of the map until you have three or four new items that suddenly bring life to that section all over again.  If you instead find yourself being forced to go back after each new item you get, that becomes less of a discovery and more of a chore.  

The thing that really made Mario, Zelda, and Metroid so special to begin with was that there always seemed to be some secret to find around every corner.  If you're required to find those areas (and have a hint system pointing straight to them), it really defeats that sense.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2006, 09:19:38 PM »
One pro for manual aiming above lock on: You can lead the target. Moving targets are almost impossible to hit with naive autoaim.

Offline mantidor

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2006, 04:37:54 AM »
Im not concerned about lack of lock on for Prime 3. It would actually make the game closer to the 2D metroids, in these you have to time jumps and missile shooting for bosses, which is practically a form of aiming. Again this should go along enemy and boss design, Thardus from prime 1 for instance would be a living nightmare without lock-on, but if lock on is gone, Im sure we wont find a boss like thardus in prime 3. The challenge will come from a different gameplay mechanic.

And I love respawning, it makes you feel like Samus has really grow in abilities, the chozo ghost were the worst case of unbalance, but still, the first fight could be very challenging, but once you find them again and have the x visor and super missiles, they take only two super missles to go down, I love that! enemies who were almost imposible now are destroyed easily, and you dont have to kill them if you dont want to, since the doors no longer get locked.

My favorite though is the speed booster in the 2D games, you have this really hard time going through this long tunnel full of enemies, but once you have the speed booster, you just build speed, do the charge thing and slam your body against all destroying them easily and cruising the tunnel in no time, that is simply awesome. I wish they could implement something like that for prime 3 but I have no idea how could it work in 3d and first person.

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2006, 04:41:57 AM »
but once you find them again and have the x visor and super missiles, they take only two super missles to go down, I love that!

One super missile + one charge shot were enough, you're wasting missiles.

Offline mantidor

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2006, 04:45:19 AM »
oh thats right, I wasnt sure about it. I think that hard mode does take two missiles.

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Offline Rize

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2006, 05:36:15 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The Metroid series is about upgrading.  However, that doesn't mean the abilities need to be stripped away at the start of each game so you can get them all over again.  It worked fine in the first Prime because you'd never used those abilities in 3D, so they felt new.  Echoes tried to avoid too much repetition by introducing some new items, but there was still too much overlap with Prime.  What it comes down to is the developer's willingness to design new items and design a new world based around those new items -- allowing you to keep your old stuff, to a reasonable extent, at least.  Retro needs to have more courage in creating new abilities for Samus and designing around those, a message I've delivered to them every chance I get.


Banjo Tooie is an excellent example of a sequel that let you start with every ability you learned over the course of the previous game and then gave you a bunch of new ones.

I like the Echoes approach though.  You get stripped of most of your abilities, but find a lot of replacements that weren't in the previous game.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2006, 05:40:55 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bloodworth I think the real key to upgrading is for there to be significant areas opened up - that you don't get back to a section of the map until you have three or four new items that suddenly bring life to that section all over again.  If you instead find yourself being forced to go back after each new item you get, that becomes less of a discovery and more of a chore.


This was exactly my problem with MP2.

I felt that MP1 did an excellent job balancing this, typically having 1-2 unopenable doors/rocks/obstacles in an area which would require you to come back later. MP2 just seemed to have a plethora of impassible barriers in each area which would require only the most meticulous memory when it came to hunting them all down once you finally had the appropriate items. Every unopenable door I saw basically meant another trip through half the map.

I hope they could balance this in MP3 so it was more like MP1. The areas generally have one locked door which holds almost a completely new area, not 4-5 unlockables which may only contain upgrades or a scan you don't want to miss out on.
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Offline Rize

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2006, 07:06:30 AM »
I've been playing a bit more of hunters adventure mode.  I can sum it up in one very simple sentiment.  It is the game that everyone feared Metroid Prime would be.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2006, 07:36:46 AM »
" Ian is right about the respawning enemies. They should be the type of creatures that even if they take a little extra time to kill, they aren't as comlex as fighting boss."

I don't necessarily agree with this.  I remember going around in Metroid Prime after beating (or having nearly beaten, either way) the game, just playing around or looking for extra stuff.  And I'd leave the energy beam on instead of the plasma beam, because I immensely enjoyed fighting the enemies in a more challenging way.  Juvenile sheegoths and flying pirates in particular.
If I needed to get by quickly, I just walked by.  Chozo ghosts (which I hardly liked fighting) and Dark Pirate Commandos (in MP2, those enemies were a bitch) I could just walk past and I probably wouldn't even get hurt.

Well, I don't disagree.  Some enemies are too hard, even later in the game.  But I don't agree that backtracking can't be fun, if that's what anyone's arguing :P
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
YOUR IWATA AVATAR LOOKS LIKE A REAL HOSTILE CREATION!!!!!<BR><BR>only someone with leoperd print sheets could produce such an image!!!<BR>

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RE:REVIEWS: Metroid Prime: Hunters
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2006, 02:44:18 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The same enemies spawning every time you walk into the room isn't immersive, it's boring. In fact, it breaks immersion, unless I'm led to believe that this room has a time-release giant beetle dispenser buried somewhere in it.


I'm  only about hafway through,but Hunters seems to be better about about not always spawning the same enemies... The somewhat random fights with other hunters are more interesting.