Topic: LoZ: TP delayed until Nov...

[JonLeung]

If this comes out in November, think it can get E3 hype...again?  I know some games have been at a few E3s before finally being released, but I heard they made a Zelda dungeon in their booth!  Not a full dungeon with a couple dozen rooms and traps and puzzles but it was at least a room or so decorated with dungeony stuff and a life-size Stalfos.

Maybe I'll have a chance to go to E3 this year and I would like to see it, but those who attended last year's E3 may get a sense of deja vu.

[Ian Sane]

"It says GC controllers don't work with Rev games, but that doesn't mean Rev controllers don't work with Cube games."

You're right.  That wouldn't make any sense.  I think I got a little confused there.

"I wouldn't be downplaying the decision until we see how much or how little the Revmote will be used in TP. If it's used for fishing, yeah, then 'WTFs' all around. However, if it's used to swing the sword, aim the bow, throw the boomerang, etc. etc. then I think it's safe to say that the selling point for TP on the Rev will BE the Revmote."

To do that effectively would require them to make the game twice.  The game wouldn't work on the Cube unless they really dumbed down the motion control to merely assign gestures to button presses which would be pretty pointless and would probably hurt the appeal of the remote as a result.  mantidor describes it pretty well.  Something like a fishing game makes the most sense because they can make it fully use the remote and then remove it from the Cube "version" because it's not a requirement to beat the game.

[Artimus]

I don't care what system it is on, when it comes out or whether it wears boxers or briefs. I just care how good it is.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian SaneTo do that effectively would require them to make the game twice.  The game wouldn't work on the Cube unless they really dumbed down the motion control to merely assign gestures to button presses which would be pretty pointless and would probably hurt the appeal of the remote as a result.  mantidor describes it pretty well.  Something like a fishing game makes the most sense because they can make it fully use the remote and then remove it from the Cube "version" because it's not a requirement to beat the game.

No, it wouldn't.

The application of the controller is situational. Remember that, with the analogue nunchuck, it will behave just like a regular GC controller, just a disjointed one. From there, the interface could be made to behave differently depending on whether or not you have a GC controller or a Rev controller present. Z-targeting could go into a first person perspective to swing the sword (or claw enemies as a wolf, since Link'll be spending a great deal of time as one) while you continue to move with the analogue stick in the other hand.

Nintendo has roughly 8 additional months to get TP ready and to be an additional selling point for the Rev. I know they've made some severe f-ups in the past, but I don't think anyone at EAD is dumb enough to think that "Link's Big Fishing Adventure" is going to sell Revs when the game will work just fine on the GC.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Zelda's cancelled.

You can close the thread now.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: mantidor
I think Nintendo is the best developer around, but even them in my opinion wont be able to make a flawless game that uses both the GC controller and the remote, for the game to trully use the remote it must be completly revamped, it would be so mediocre to map remote functionality to things that a button can do, like Ian has mention so many times. Why swing a remote to simulate a slash when you can do it with a button? It can only make a difference if also enemies' attacks are changed accordingly, which means revamping the whole combat mechanics, probably going as far as changing bosses mechanics completly. Is the same to any 3D sensing functionality anyone can think off.

And sadly that will detract from the core game too, the attention is split, is not really a GC game any more, but neither is Rev game. That rev functionality is the dumbest idea Ive heard in the history of dumb ideas, and royally screws up the GC owners who wanted the game, is worth of companies like EA, not Nintendo.

I agree with you 100%; tried arguing it myself in several threads...  Seems like a lost cause getting others to understand this point though ;-p.  My challenge still stands: Think of a cool use of the remote in a zelda game, paying attention to details including what you have to do *and* what the game needs to do.  Then tell me how you would attain that same experience with the GC controller.

Shecky's prediction:  Zelda's bonus will likely be a minigame or subquest that lays behind a closed door (one that only opens on the REV).  That minigame will use the new controller.  Also, game will be playable in backwards compatibility with the shell and motions may be used to speed up some common tasks (ie shake the controller to giddy up your horse or mount - mimic manipulating the reins).  Finally, we'll see a game in about 1-2 yrs that uses the same engine, built for the REV and it's features.

[Mario]

I want to be able to get 100% out of Twilight Princess with my Nintendo GameCube, otherwise i'm not buying Revolution. If the reason for the delay was to add Rev elements, i'll jump off a cliff.

[Ian Sane]

"The application of the controller is situational. Remember that, with the analogue nunchuck, it will behave just like a regular GC controller, just a disjointed one. From there, the interface could be made to behave differently depending on whether or not you have a GC controller or a Rev controller present. Z-targeting could go into a first person perspective to swing the sword (or claw enemies as a wolf, since Link'll be spending a great deal of time as one) while you continue to move with the analogue stick in the other hand."

So Nintendo then has to make the game TWICE with two completely different control methods and different game mechanics to support these two methods.  There's no way Nintendo is doing that kind of work unless they're going to delay it to next year or later.

[Infernal Monkey]

This news would upset me if DS wasn't owning my soul at the moment.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Ian SaneSo Nintendo then has to make the game TWICE with two completely different control methods and different game mechanics to support these two methods.  There's no way Nintendo is doing that kind of work unless they're going to delay it to next year or later.

Again, the application of the controller is situational.

Let's take the mounted combat as an example.

The mounted combat is not the whole game. It's a situation within the game which involves the player in fighting while on horseback.

While playing on the GC, mounted combat sequences could be governed by controlling the speed of the horse while timing attacks to slay foes and deflect incoming projectile attacks.

While playing on the Rev, mounted combat sequences could go to a first person perspective where you use the Revmote as the handle of your sword and thusly slash foes with it or block incoming projectiles with it.

Contrary to popular belief, this will not require the entire game to be rebuilt from scratch in order for it to work seamlessly into the gameplay. With the Rev, you get bonus fight scenes that are impossible with the GC.

And the "You can do it with the push of a button" argument fails because it ignores the entire premise of why we have the controller in the first place: pushing a button is not immersive. Pushing a button to stab an enemy is not as fun as, say, pantomiming the action of driving the blade into its torso.

Technically, there's nothing you cannot do with the push of a button. Powerstone was renown for long, drawn-out combo attacks which happened with the press of a single button. The result is that the game was not very interactive and thus was not fun.

We as players want to feel connected to the game: the most fun I have is when I absolutely lose myself in the game and you could balance plates on my head without me noticing. Again, just because pushing a button can make Link swing his sword doesn't mean that it won't be more enjoyable to give the game another level of depth which allows me to control his sword directly.

Why would I want a button to be the trigger when I could instead make my arm into Link's arm?

Like I said, situational, like the knife-fights in RE DS which only happen once every so often, yet they're fun and a good change of pace from the standard gameplay. There's no reason that parts of the game cannot include Rev control without the need to redo the entire game arising.

[Mario]

I disagree 10000000000%, combat is a fundamental aspect of the game, it's not a one time gameplay mode like the shooting gallery. I don't want to be limited in my fight scenes because i'm using a GC controller.

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Why would I want a button to be the trigger when I could instead make my arm into Link's arm?

Because I don't have a Revolution controller. This is a GameCube game, GameCube can not do that.

There is going to be a Zelda game on the Revolution as well you know.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Mario
I disagree 10000000000%, combat is a fundamental aspect of the game, it's not a one time gameplay mode like the shooting gallery. I don't want to be limited in my fight scenes because i'm using a GC controller.

Who said you would be? The mounted combat on the GC is not going to suffer because of Rev support. The mounted combat on the GC is going to be exactly how it was always intended to be, but the mounted combat on the Rev could take advantage of the controller for a different style of fighting.

It's all a goddamn theory anyway. They did it with RE DS to make use of the touchscreen. Nintendo making use of the Rev controller in such a manner is far from inconceivable.

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Because I don't have a Revolution controller. This is a GameCube game, GameCube can not do that.

There is going to be a Zelda game on the Revolution as well you know.

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Reggie: Exactly. I think that our senior management has made it very clear that bringing Zelda: Twilight Princess out on GameCube is important, that we want to satisfy the GameCube fan base and have it be on that system. You've said the obvious, which is that [because] Revolution's backward compatible, it will almost effectively be a launch title for Revolution. The trick will be what makes it special to play on Revolution, and to the extent that we could create something like that, boy, wouldn't that be fantastic? Certainly one of the things that I would love to see is something that makes Zelda, when it's played on Revolution, do something magical. And I think that any Nintendo fan would love to see that.

Sorry if you're pissed, but unless Reggie is blowing smoke out his ass (and from what I've seen, Reggie seldom does that), then it's already in the cards.  

[Mario]

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Who said you would be? The mounted combat on the GC is not going to suffer because of Rev support. The mounted combat on the GC is going to be exactly how it was always intended to be, but the mounted combat on the Rev could take advantage of the controller for a different style of fighting.

I know, but it would just feel like i'm missing out.

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They did it with RE DS to make use of the touchscreen.

RE DS isn't a GBA game.

I saw Reggie's comment before, and it makes me sad. However I think if it's implemented in a way outside of the main path / storyline (which combat is certainly a part of), then it would be ok. For a fishing mini game or something. Maybe it's something else too, maybe putting TP into the Revolution could give you a free NES download, or do something to the Rev interface?

Man, I like how we know pretty much nothing about both Zelda TP and Revolution, so ANYTHING could be going on behind the scenes right now.

[Smash_Brother]

Fair enough: no one wants to miss out, but it's not so much a malicious withholding of "fun" as it is a limitation of the technology and the promise of what a new technology can do.

I imagine mounted fight scenes in TP will be like sailing in WW: you don't do it because you want to so much as you have to in order to get from place to place. The Revmote being used in those situations will be a "magical" novelty more than anything but I don't think GC owners will truly be missing out.

[King of Twitch]

What about jerking the remote forward to whip the horse and make it go faster, or catching a fairy in a jar, or tilting it next to your mouth to simulate drinking a bottle of milk? Little things like that shouldn't hurt, but they will still have to add a configuration explanation in the main game and or manual which could get confusing.

[mantidor]

You see Smash_brother, thats the sign of a bad game and a bad developer if they just force gameplay methods into a game like if it was some sort of canvas, and thats why clones of Nintendo games are never as good. Do you think that EAD will just put a huge plain for the horse to ride and some enemies? The enemies are specifically designed to be fought in this plain with a GC controller, even the land itself is layed out in such way that it takes the biggest advantage of the GC controller, the design of things like caves, rivers, forest, paths, you name it. Horsebak with the remote opens so much posiblities that they would be wasted if they just map the controls into TP horseback fights from E3, unless the redo the monsters you fought, the land you cross, and basically the whole thing. Nintendo doesnt make games like that ( and thats why Im so shocked about these rumors), they dont think "you know, a maniatical moon crashing in the land would be so cool, lets make a game about that!", "first person perspective is popular so lets make a Metroid game this way!" First and most important for them is and always will be the gameplay, everything else comes as bonus.


I notice all this thanks to the Wind Waker, I was among the people who hated the graphics, but I found myself having an incredible time with the game, how could I if Link looked like a badly drawn powerpuf girl? that forced me to put my eyes away from the graphical style and notice all these little details, this excellence in design and development, the clever puzzles and absolutly flawless control the game had, I even started to appreciate those huge eyes, (specially in certain cabaña who had a secret passage ). Thats why I cant believe they'll just put rev features into a game thats not made with those in mind! I just cant believe it.

[capamerica]

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Originally posted by: JonLeung
I can't recall any really big PSX games that came out after the PS2.  I don't think any big PS2 games are slated for after the PS3 will come out.  Same with Xbox/Xbox 360.

Final Fantasy IX came out for the PSOne after the PS2 was released. Final Fantasy IX was released 4 months after the PS2 release in Japan on Final Fantasy IX came out 07/07/2000, The PS2 was released on 03/04/2000.

In the US Final Fantasy IX also came out after the PS2, Final Fantasy came out 11/13/2000 and the PS2 came out 10/26/2000. Not a big time differnce but still if Square wanted they could have easly turned Final Fantasy IX into a PS2 launch title, that would have given the PS2 one hell of a system seller. But insted Square released it on the PSOne.

I know when I went to get a Playstation to play Finall Fantasy IX (I played Final Fantasy VII and VIII on the PC) I picked up a PS2 insted of a cheap PSOne, I figured that if I'm going to buy a system I might as well go with one that will last me awhile in the long run.

I'm more then willing to bet that if Nintendo does infact hold off the release of Twilight Princess till the Revolution's launch it will get alot of people to who don't own a GameCube to pick up a Revolution insted. Hell if Nintendo is really smart they will release a Bundle pack for Zelda:TP and the Revolution.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
You see Smash_brother, thats the sign of a bad game and a bad developer if they just force gameplay methods into a game like if it was some sort of canvas, and thats why clones of Nintendo games are never as good. Do you think that EAD will just put a huge plain for the horse to ride and some enemies? The enemies are specifically designed to be fought in this plain with a GC controller, even the land itself is layed out in such way that it takes the biggest advantage of the GC controller, the design of things like caves, rivers, forest, paths, you name it. Horsebak with the remote opens so much posiblities that they would be wasted if they just map the controls into TP horseback fights from E3, unless the redo the monsters you fought, the land you cross, and basically the whole thing. Nintendo doesnt make games like that ( and thats why Im so shocked about these rumors), they dont think "you know, a maniatical moon crashing in the land would be so cool, lets make a game about that!", "first person perspective is popular so lets make a Metroid game this way!" First and most important for them is and always will be the gameplay, everything else comes as bonus.

I think that's being awfully presumptuous about a game we know little to nothing about. All we've seen from the trailers is Link riding across various plains battling enemies while mounted (on a large boar, of all things). We have no idea the extent to which these scenes will be in the game, nor do we have any reason to believe the Rev would be used to enhance them. After all, everything I'm spouting is theory.

Also, the first-person perspective is no stranger to the 3D LoZ games: ever since OoT, the bow and slingshot have both been usable from a 1st person perspective, often requiring the player to do this to beat bosses and solve puzzles. Since the Rev's controller is plainly built for FPS situations, who's to say that won't be a place where the controller becomes applicable?

I think people are making a bigger deal out of this than is necessary. If I play TP on my GC and I push a button in order to make Link swing his sword instead of pantomiming the action or I use the analogue stick instead of pointing the controller at where I want Link to shoot his arrow or fire the grappling hook, I'm not going to lose sleep that night because there are people playing it on the Rev enjoying slightly more features than I am.

Besides, who here isn't going to buy a Rev anyway? It's easily their most promising console to date, what with the backwards compatibility, online focus, and a massive library of retro games to download. Even if the controller sucked, it already has a ton going for it.

[Mario]

The website that changed it's date to November changed it back to April!

http://www.gametab.com/news/488853/





 



 

[Smash_Brother]

According to that, the release date is April 1st. April 1st is a SATURDAY.

Not too many games released on a saturday. I think this is an early april fools joke.

[Bill Aurion]

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!

[Mario]

All the dates were on the 1st of the month. That's just where they go until an exact date is announced.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Time to close the thread.  We know it's never coming out now.

We'll just do the best we can with Chibi-Robo.

[Smash_Brother]

I'm not sure who to believe.

Gamestop and Ebgames list it for the first of August, which at least falls on a Tuesday (a normal day for releasing games).

Bestbuy has it for April 1st, which is a saturday, a day on which games and movies are NEVER released.

I think we need to wait for Nintendo to confirm or deny this.

[Mario]

It's just a coincidence the 1st of August is on a Tuesday. You really think they'd put something exact?

Gah, SPEAK NINTENDO! SAY ANYTHING!