Author Topic: Less power an advantage for Revolution?  (Read 10779 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2005, 09:46:35 AM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo typically tries to have every game be a big hit.  They rarely make games that are just supposed to be hardcore fanbase stuff.

No, you have the thinking all wrong...Ninty tries to turn niche-based games into games that have more appeal to everyone...Let's look at Nintendogs...Pet simulators have been around FOREVER, but have they had mass appeal?  Not really, so they can be considered a niche title...Ninty just made it good enough to give it that mass appeal...Brain Training SHOULD be considered niche...Electroplankton?  Cubivore?  Doshin the Giant?  Trace Memory?  Are these not "niche" games?  Just how thin is the line between a "niche" game and a "mass-appeal" game?  Hideki Konno talked about a Rev cooking demo that his team is playing around, can that not be considered niche?  Or is the line between "gimmick" and "niche" non-existant?  Because that's what I fear: Ninty will create a niche game and then get blasted for the g-word (ironically by someone like you)...
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Offline Don'tHate742

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RE:Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2005, 10:04:38 AM »
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane

"Yesterday you complain that Ninty concentrates too much on non-gamer niche software, today they concentrate on blockbuster"

Nintendo's non-gamer strategy is based around attracting mass appeal though.  Their goal is to attract a huge amount of non-gamers.  When I'm taking about niche in this example (I'll admit I'm loose with word definitions) I mean games that are designed just to appeal to a core audience.  Mass appeal may happen by accident but it isn't the goal.  The game isn't designed to be a colossal hit it just maybe ends up being one.

Nintendo typically tries to have every game be a big hit.  They rarely make games that are just supposed to be hardcore fanbase stuff.  They have that same approach when they make deals to get third party games.  So while I want them to get that suprise hit from a small dev I wouldn't say for sure that they really are attracting that group.



I have three statements that disprove your, "they're not making games for gamers" comment. Zelda, Metriod, and Pikmin. Though they seem to have mass appeal, those are niche in respects to your definition. They are for hardcore gamers, gamers that are fanatical, but they tend to have mass appeal due to the Nintendo touch of quality and ease of use. Is that such a bad thing?

Other titles like Mario are geared toward mass appeal because Nintendo doesn't want to lose what they gained with the first Mario. Everyone loved that game, so is it wrong for Nintendo to try and continue that philosophy? The want the next mario to be the same, and mario wouldn't be mario without mass appeal. Also, SSB is a perfect example of that philosophy brought to life. A game so fun that anyone can enjoy. Again, it that such a bad thing?

What other games have they made that appeal to everyone? I know what your saying, but it's hard to list examples when so many actually lend themselves to niche markets (i.e. Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars, F-Zero, WaveRace)

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"What are they doing wrong right now in our eyes?"

I don't know.  I can't say what they're doing right with third parties either because we don't know enough.  But it makes a lot more sense to speculate based on past actions than future things they could do but have no history of doing before.


How about you instead focus on things in the present? We learned that Iwata is offering Nintendo help (probably the best help a developer could get) to any developer that wants it. That's a huge plus in my eyes. When has Nintendo ever done such a thing? Also, we know the makers of Killer 7, Kojima, EA, and Ubisoft are working on a REV projects, isn't that enough information to assume that people who want devkits have them? Can't we also assume the possibility that third parties are working on the REV, but don't want to show any info? We could also assume the opposite, but using obductive skills isn't the first statement more plausible, especially because of how many developers adore the REV?

Honestly, there is absolutely no reason to be pessimistic at this point. Basing negativity on past actions isn't worthwhile because they don't apply to the Nintendo we see today. Let's face it, Nintendo has changed.  
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2005, 11:49:36 AM »
If it's true, having less power really can't be seen as an advantage to Nintendo, even if the idea that developers will "dumb" all of their multiplatform games down to Revolution's level were to come true.  In the end, there will still be exclusive games that will show that the other systems are more capable, and those are often the big blockbusters (Final Fantasy or Halo for example).

However, if Nintendo takes advantage of that lower power to reduce the price of the system noticeably, then it could be an advantage.  In the end I don't think it's possible to compare Revolution to the competition like we have in the past.  I mean, you can still compare them, but I think Nintendo's success lies more with the new features of the system than with traditional factors like price and graphics.
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Offline IceCold

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RE:Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2005, 07:34:06 PM »
"Ninty PUBLISHES a lot of small dev stuff so you never notice it...Devs like Cing (Trace Memory), Suzak (Thief Wario DS), and RED (Detect Hacker DS) come to mind...

Yeh, but these are all handheld (DS) games; the production costs are waay lower. Maybe this will be the case for the Rev, but it costs a lot more to make a console game, however easy Nintendo makes it to develop for the Rev.

However, Nintendo could still work with smaller devs to make their titles available in the download service; low-budget games that have great potential and would be cheap. Still, I haven't seen Nintendo making any strides in this direction. In fact, Microsoft is doing more with the Live Arcade from what I've seen.
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Offline cubist

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RE:Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2005, 11:59:39 AM »
Less power?  If Miyamoto is saying that the REV is 2 to 3 times more powerful than the GCN...I'm starting to believe that the REV maybe just as powerful as the XBOX360.  Why?  Well, I've been looking at the demos at Gamestop for Microsoft's new console and it really isn't a major leap.  Sure, the graphics are amazing, but the current generation isn't even that far off.  

If Microsoft thinks that the XBox360 is 10 times powerful...then I'm really starting to see the modesty in Nintendo's numbers.  The demos, even though they looked great, just don't seem that far off from games like RE4.  I know they're just first generation titles, but I don't see a vast leap in technology just yet.  I really do believe that once the market gets flooded and the general gaming public is desensitized by the next generation of graphics...then maybe Nintendo's new way to play just might work.
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Offline slacker

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RE: Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2005, 03:15:29 PM »
I'm with cubist here.  I got a chance to see some of theXBox360's demos, and I don't see the technological leap as a huge one.  Heck, we can all get that type of graphics right now for our PCs.  I know its early, but I don't see it as being impressive.  Besides, how much of a leap can the next generation be compared to the best graphics card available now.  I think the next generation is going to sell on its other functionalities rather than just its graphical capabilities.

Offline Artimus

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RE: Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2005, 06:04:18 PM »
Unfortunately Ian's argument basis the nature of niche on sales, not the actual games, allowing the process to work only against Nintendo. If niche games only apply to small markets, then surely Jungle Beat and FZero are both niche games. Likewise, Killer 7 is a niche game. Likewise, any game that becomes a hit is not a niche game, regardless of whether or not it is. Is a game like Pikmin not a niche game? Because it is a hit, that doesn't mean it isn't a niche game. But this is the beauty of the argument.

The other troubling thing about Ian's present stance is that he is arguing against his other stances. His main argument against Nintendo is that they are not doing enough to win back the market share. First, let's assume Nintendo's resources are not infinite, which is true. Second, let's also assume Nintendo's influence is not infinite, which is also true. Lastly, let's assume it is not possible to totally regain lost market share within on generation, which history so far supports. Therefore, if one wishes to regain market position they will try and fix what hurts the most. Nintendo has done some of this with third parties, mature titles, disc medium, etc. It has failed on some other areas like system design and image. I'll neglect online because Nintendo's stance is no different than Sony's, Nintendo just chose not to lie to consumers (looking out for consumers has actually hurt them more than helped).

Now they're at fault for not getting niche developers? Ridiculous. There is a rather large fallacy here, basically a double standard. It assumes that there are, let's say, five types of games. We'll call them types A, B, C, D and E. Ian's rants assume that you need all give types to succeed. If you lack type B you fail. If you lack type E you fail. Therefore any lack of any type means Nintendo has failed. It means they have not done enough this generation. The reason this is a fallacy is because no system in the past two generations has had all five. This is because of one reason only: Nintendo is a first party. The only company that can possible offer all five types is Nintendo. Sony and Microsoft cannot. Howso? They cannot offer Nintendo. Nintendo has sold 18 million GameCubes based over half on the fact that their games will be on the system. No other company in history has been able to do this. Sega went out of business trying. Would Sony survive if they had the N64's third party support? Not likely. Would Microsoft have done well this round with the GameCube's third party support? Not likely. Yet Nintendo has sold almost as much as Microsoft with half the third party support.

How is this a double standard? Because niche games don't affect market share. If you are trying to regain support you must choose to regain it in the most useful places first: the hits. Resident Evil is far more important to gain than Metal Slug. The only reason to say Nintendo has failed is if you require all five (the real number being much higher) types of games before success is acheived. But like I have said, that standard is disproven by the success of Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo cannot do everything at once, they chose the most visible and successful pathways to make headway on. Niche games are not a valid criticism. Ian's entire m.o. is that Nintendo should win back the market share, going after niche games with finite resources is counter productive. The criticism only becomes valid if all five types are necessary, and equally so. They are not, as Sony and Microsoft prove. Thus Ian's argument is neither correct nor valid.

Offline The Omen

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RE:Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2005, 02:22:37 PM »
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the most powerful system always loses look at snes v weaker SG, N64 v weaker ps, GC v weaker ps2, psp v DS, ps3 v REVO!, ngage v GBA /qd v SP and who won all the vs?


First off, the Snes was released almost two years later than the Genesis, and still ended up 'winning'.  You have a point on the others, however, you're proving my point too.  Sure, the powerful consoles 'lost'.  But once you dig deeper, it's because of the game library  which is the only reason they weren't doing as well as the weaker systems.  It's all about what kind of support you get.  And as of right now, Nintendo is third in that regard.  The least third party support + the weakest console = ?
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2005, 02:34:11 PM »
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But once you dig deeper, it's because of the game library which is the only reason they weren't doing as well as the weaker systems.
Which doesn't provide any evidence that system power had any relevance.

Artimus, you're misconstruing Ian (or I am). He's not arguing that Nintendo should personally develop niche products, but that it should have a system friendly to them. Thus, the key element of your response (Nintendo has limited resources, and therfore cannot afford to cater to the niche) fails.

Of course, by "niche games" Ian exclusively refers to 2d fighters. The fact that he repeatedly ignores both the benefits of the new controller for existing genres and the ways it can open up new genres is quite frustrating. Which is more popular, first-person shooters or 2d fighters? And why do you persist in ignoring the shell?  
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Less power an advantage for Revolution?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2005, 08:01:15 AM »
Well, on the topic of the traditional shell, I think Ian's stance is that the shell will fail if Nintendo doesn't include it with every controller.  I think that he may be right...if the shell has to be purchased separately it will have to be extremely cheap and even then there's still a mental block.  A clueless gamer must:
1. Realize that he needs the shell (does the game tell him?  does he hear it from a friend?  is the source that tells him reliable?)
2. Find out the cost of the shell (is it cheap enough for him?  will he go to the effort to find out the cost or make an assumption about the price?)
3. Go and purchase the shell

Yeah, I'm assuming that this is a very lazy and ignorant person, but that's a good assumption to make.  Why do you think Nintendo includes special perihperals with practically every game that needs them?  People don't want to buy stuff separately.

If nobody buys the shells, it won't be profitable to develop games for them, and third parties that are too lazy to use the new control system will lose interest in developing for it.  Okay, maybe we don't want those lazy third parties?  But what's the point of even offering the shell if not to make life easy for lazy developers or developers with a game that really doesn't suit the new controller?  Furthermore, if consumers can't get James Bond or The Matrix or The Simpsons or Spongebob on Revolution, a lot of them will look at the other choices, never mind that those games and their respective developers aren't the most respected in the hardcore community.

My point is, Nintendo's shell is not a perfect solution.  Heck, on the opposite side of things (sorry I love to argue forwards and backwards), it might be a really bad idea to include the traditional shell with the Revolution and the basic Revolution controller because it reinforces the idea that videogames are too complex, which is what Nintendo wants to get away from.
That's my opinion, not yours.
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